[0:06] Fishes, fish, rock, crap. Oh, you

[0:12] did it. Got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at. Hello, you were listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.

[0:30] I am Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues, the show where you call in and ask all sorts of cooking related questions, whether technical or not. Today, I'm in the studio with Nastasia Lopez's cooking issues own

[0:42] hammer and special guest. We're very excited to have Jeffrey Steingarten, one of the great writers on food of all times, the food critic of

[0:51] Vogue and personal friend of mine. Hi Jeffrey, thanks for coming. Hi, Dave. Hi, Natasha. So, uh, actually, we have some email questions in while we're waiting for. Oh, by the way, the number to call, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128.

[1:07] Don't miss this opportunity to call in and ask Jeffrey a question. We had some email questions that came in. Um, kind of, you know, stirring things up a little bit. Greg wants to know, I'm pretty sure Jeffrey can't answer this, but for contractual reasons, I guess. But he has to ask, really, how seriously do you take Iron Chef America? It seems like this is really just a faux competition, and it's a great way to get publicity for great regional chef cooking more than national for more national exposure. What is your response? You don't have to answer this if you don't want to. Oh, I'd love to answer. Oh, perfect. I take it seriously. And I found out about chefs by being a judge. The, um, I almost never really light into a chef from outside of New York because

[1:56] they are usually a hero in their hometown. The last thing they need is to be on the show and have their reputation destroyed. The only people I'm really mean to are the Iron Chefs when they... But, you know, when they do something that's not, I'm not particularly good or really awful. And or disgusting. People from out of town, obviously. start looking for national publicity. And the good ones, like David Kinch, for example. David told me that after his appearance on Armed Chef, he won, he's never had an empty seed in his restaurant, which is, as you may know, in a very remote place in, in, um,

[2:49] Silicon Valley. I can't even remember the name of the television. Los Gatos. Mountain View or, you know, one of those. Los Gatos, isn't it? Isn't it Los Gatos, man? I mean, it's only remote to Jeffrey because he lives in New York and then lives in Southern California, so he doesn't believe in that Northern California sort of. I know, so no, I like Northern California, but this is in, I don't know, in between, also, Los

[3:09] Calgos, uh, means the cats. Yeah, no reason why anyone should live in a town called the Cats. That's true. And by the way, on a personal note, I've known Jeffrey many years and he does take this sort of thing very seriously, there's very little about food that he does not take seriously. That has been my experience. We have 2 callers apparently. So rather than make them wait, why don't we, why don't we take one of them? Hello? Hey, I have a question. Um, I want to know, like, food myth. You know, people say you can't eat oysters without, if a month doesn't have an R in it, and, you know, white wine with fish. I was wondering if you could like dispel some of, I mean, including that oyster one dispel or confirm some of these food myths that my generation grew up

[3:58] with. I don't know what generation yours is. Actually, you sound familiar. I think I recognize that voice. I believe that's the one and only Patrick Martin's, but a natural. I figured I could call in rather than walk across the street. I see. Well, actually, the whole idea of oysters in a month with R is only that not the greatest thing to have oysters

[4:23] in, um, you know, from warm water. That's why I'm always a little suspicious of Gulf oysters. Yeah. And the Gulf Oysters are also. I mean, before the oil does building everything, they were the only ones that used to possibly give, you know, contain vibrio. And, um... Right, which is why they're subjected to that ultra-high,

[4:44] ultra-high-pressure pasteurization technique, which I've never tasted, whether they're any good or not, after that, it's been done, you know, where they put it under. I've never tasted that one. But why bother when you can have real oysters? Yeah, that's true. That's true. No, now as for white wine fish, no, that's also, and,

[4:58] and, yeah, but, you know, water bun doesn't generally go with steak. I mean, it's it's generally too weak, but uh, too soft. But red wine goes with fish. We know that better. Yeah, yeah. They cut him off. So he can no longer reply to us, but I'm sure he's agreeing. Well, I wonder whether he knows any or wives' tales regarding peak jowls because I just ordered a peak jowl from him. Really? Well, I'm sure that'll go with many different things depending on how you cook it, right? Are you going to cure it or are you going to cook it? I did cure. Oh, yeah? but only for a short time. I mean, I actually got the recipe from Carlo at Roberta's. Oh nice. All right. very fun a very fun chef. You'll have to invite me to try some. We still have that 2nd caller on the line? I think so. Yes. Hello? Hello? Hi. How you guys doing? Doing well, doing well. Excellent. So I actually have sort of continuing the non-technical question theme today. Young chefs and aspiring somaliers are always sort of admonished to develop and expand their palates. I figured you guys and Mr. Steingarten would be a great place to start with. What does that mean? How do you go about developing your palate? Is that an active process? Is that something that just develops over a lifetime of work? Well, you happen to hit one of Jeffrey's big pet peas about people that talk about food in general,

[6:28] is that they haven't eaten enough, so I'm gonna give it to Jeffrey. I remember there was a young man who was just graduating from high school. He wanted to be a food writer or a chef, and it turned out

[6:41] that he was coaching. I mean, he had grown up kosher, and I, he kept on wanting to know what book to

[6:46] read, or, and I told him the main thing is just eat everything you can. I mean, you've eaten so little in your life. And, um, But it also kind of helps to eat new things with

[6:57] people who know. So, for example, if you go to Italy for the 1st time, um, and you're eating food you've never had

[7:07] before or you've only had in America, then it kind of, but pays to eat with a native, I mean, a native who knows what the, you know, what he or she is doing. to just so you can get a sense from what you're looking for. Yeah, there's also... But all of us have about the same taste buds. I mean, there are super tasters, but I don't have to worry too much about them. But you develop your sense of taste or your ability to, you know, to distinguish, I think, by putting words on it. And, um, Therefore, all those taste words, it sounds so so pretend. Well, the ones that are too abstract are obviously too pretentious. The taste words can be very, very useful. And then finally, in

[7:58] the, in the introduction to my 1st book, I described the time I became a perfect omnivore, I undergoing an intense program that I had devised

[8:10] myself. And it was, um, I

[8:18] wanted to rid myself of all preferences. Um, +and negative. So for example, whenever I would go to a restaurant, a good restaurant, I would order only things I didn't

[8:31] like, or that I thought I didn't like. By the end of 6 months or a year, I became a perfect omnivore, with the exception of insects. I had never gotten used to eating insects and desserts and Indian restaurants. Yeah, that's a tough one. What about Nato? Down, that was easy. And later, about a year later, I did become a, I'm an absolutely perfect omnivore by, um, by eating some really delicious, um, got bamboo

[9:04] worms, how deep fried bamboo worms are, um, in Thailand. They're like French fries, et cetera, just as long as you don't look at the little face on the end. And, um, But and I was in India, I was in, in, in Punjab, and I had some

[9:20] home cooked meals, and those desserts were just delicious when they made rice. So you've come to terms with the aptly named Barfy? Oh, yes. Yeah? Okay. But, you know, this advice from Jeffrey, I think, really, you should take this to heart. I think to become a critical cook or a critical leader. Even if you don't like something, it's wise to eat enough of it so that you can at least distinguish what's going

[9:40] on, even if you can't make yourself like it as Jeffrey was able to. I think we have another color. Yes, we do. All right? Hello? Hi. Hello. Hi, this is Matthew. I'm actually calling you from the Los Angeles International Airport getting ready to take a flight, but I didn't want to miss the opportunity to ask you this question. Where are you going? I'm going to Sacramento today. Not far away. I'm sorry. who are really getting out of that California dreaming. Yeah. Sacramento is a really bad food city, by the way, but that's a whole other subject. But you know, there's a, there's a very good sushi, a very good sushi place in Los Angeles, and I'm not one of those, you know, who thinks that Los Angeles is, is overflowing with good sushi places. But there's sushi Mori, and he grows his own rice near Sacramento.

[10:33] Oh really? Yeah, so there's an example of a good thing about Sacramento. Since you're in the airport though. Well, let me get to your question before they make you get on your airplane. You got it. I know that you've been a guest judge on Iron Chef quite frequently. Yes. And my question is, given how much they do, and the very narrow time period they have to cook, and all the shortcuts they have to take, how good is the

[10:58] food, really? How does it compare to, say, a really good 1st class restaurant in New York or Los Angeles? Good question. Well, I was surprised to have how good the food was. Obviously, it's not always good, but almost all the time, the actual Iron Chefs. I mean, I was naturally, I was skeptical about it all. Um, The main 3 Iron Chefs. And also Michael Simon, you know, you really want to eat different cooking. And, um, Or

[11:37] most of the dishes that they're cooking. And a lot of the challengers too. Now, I'm trying to think of, see, this is yuppie food. But you have to understand that. It's, um... to Mary Sue and Ben Susan, and then maybe only one

[11:55] other, 2 other cooks that I've seen have actually cooked, what you might call old-fashioned

[12:03] food. Food that's extremely good, but it's not colorful. It's not in small pieces. It's not intensely flavored. It's, you might call it comfort food. That doesn't go so well in Iron Chef. Did they win? No, they lost, but they probably should have won. But their food was very good. Um, I think it may have been my fault that they didn't win, actually. I feel bad. Because they're very good coach, and their food is just so good to eat. It doesn't, you know, surprise you. It doesn't astound you. It's, um, Oh, so anyway, that's what I have to say. But you know, the food can be very good, but as I say, it is yuppie food. But food that is made to kind of surprise you. Um, combinations

[13:05] you've never had before. It's very hard to judge combinations you've never had before. Um, is, um, For example, Wiley Dufrain. But when he was a challenger, he did a fabulous job until dessert. Right. And then there was a combination. There was a smear, by the way, who's Dave's brother-in-law. And I was at the taping for this. I have some hard feelings about this. So, yes. And it was a, in the dessert, there was a smear of chocolate and a smear of licorice. First of all, Jeffrey hates this sort of brushwork on a plate. He has a personal bias against it. He actually thinks it's evil. No, I actually did not have a personal bias then. I do have a personal bodies now. only because you have to work very hard to get that stuff off the plate into your mouth.

[13:53] And if it's really good, why do you have to do that? You know, and the thing on this dessert, was it coffee, was it coffee flavored couscous, or is that not in the dessert? It's been a long time since it happened. But it was between Mario Batali and my brother-in-law, Wiley Dufrayne, and I'm sure, I'd tasted none of it. I'm sure that Mario's food was delicious, right? Wiley had attempted a much more kind of a mental thing, a

[14:16] textural tasting of tilapia, tilapia, which is a vile, vile, vile fish. Mario, I think, made the smart play, which is, you know, cover the tilape with all sorts of flavorful stuff. And Wiley, I think, took the harder, and I guess, in the end, less successful route of trying to work with the fish

[14:34] itself. What are your thoughts? I would agree with you if you were correct. I love that Oh, man. In my story, in my metal story, because you don't actually scratch on the end. While he was winning by a hair, but his memory was very hard to beat. I mean, he so, but he knows how to do Iron Chef, right? Or knew he's not on it anymore. But she's probably too rich. Um, Mario was fantastic. But and also, but also very inventive too. So, but it wasn't as though Mario, that, you know, took a cubic, a cubic centimeter of a tilapia and had covered it with spaghetti or something. It was like 2 cubic centimeters. Tilapia is an evil fish, and... but very bad fish. But in any event... get to the nitty-gritty. Remember how they killed some live tilapia on that. And I believe Mario used one of the live tilapia that was killed, served it to the other judge, and she found it inedible because it was too

[15:33] tough, and then said that it wasn't Mario's fault. It was the fish's fault. This was cut from the airing, but basically she got served a piece of basically inedible tilapia, and how did that not get put into the scorings? Do you remember this? I'm sure it was. My story, however, didn't involve her tough fish. Because had only know that it was tough. Right. And I actually asked her for a piece. Oh, she didn't give it to you? whether she gave it. I don't remember that. But as I was saying, while he was not marked out for anything else he did, His food was sort of compared to most of his food conventional and delicious. I mean, after all, but after all, he worked at, but very successfully as Jean George. I mean, while he knows how to cook, got many kinds of food, but it was only the dessert. No one liked the dessert. So, but you know, I guess he got way marked off because of that. It was only the dessert, Dave. was not anything else. All right, all right. Well, well, before we go to our 1st commercial break, I will answer one of the... Okay, I'll take the caller and then after the commercial break, I'll answer an email question about purging clams. All right? Call her? Hello? Hello? Hi. Hi. What is your question? Oh, great. I'm on the air. Excellent. Um, I have a souffle related question. So I'm a private chef, and my main client loves it when I make a souffle.

[17:05] Problem with a souffle, you have to start it and finish it when you're going to serve it. So I've been trying to think of ways of pre-making it. Um, one idea I had, which I tried and failed last night, was to use an ISI

[17:19] ThermoWip. Um, and I just wanted to pick your brain. It didn't, didn't seem to work. I put about into a pint

[17:28] size, ISI, whipper, um, about 4 egg, egg whites, and it just didn't foam up. I foamed it with 2 nitrous oxide containers and it just, it didn't do anything. Um, you, well, did you get fired? Did I get what? That's Jeffrey for you because he doesn't like the whole egg white, egg white foam thing. Most of the time when you're foaming... Yeah, I'm saying you wouldn't like just a straight egg white foam out of an ISI. Oh no, he didn't serve it to it. He's testing. He didn't serve it to his client. Oh I see. Right? You didn't serve it too far. No, no, no. definitely didn't. I've never foamed directly egg whites in an ISI. Have you, Jeffrey? Egg whites tried to do it directly? Yes, I've tried. Without success or no? T didn't spend enough time on it. Most people who do pre-made souffles use a stabilizer of some sort, like a

[18:20] carraginen to stabilize the foam. I think they make it somewhat traditionally and then stabilize it and then cut it into pucks and then bake it and

[18:30] it rises up. I can think of cuisine solutions has a commercial preparation based on that uses this. And it's, I believe, based on Carragin and Xanthan gum, along with the regular bass for

[18:41] souffle. Have you done any experiments with pre-made souffles? Jeffrey at all? Not exactly pre-made. I remember a long time ago, and I wish that I could remember the details, but I'd probably have them somewhere on my notes. There was a restaurant in Paris. There is a restaurant in Paris that called La Rega Lodge. It was the 1st of the cheap bistros. I mean, the cheap bistros with excellent young chefs. maybe 10 years ago. And one thing he was famous for was his, you know, Grand Marnier souffles. And I was in the kitchen watching him, and he showed me how during the

[19:16] baking, the souffle would rise to the top. And then he'd open the oven door and it would sink, and then he'd shut the oven door again, and it would rise, and it would rise again. But in other words, it was not so delicate that you had to kind of, you know, not even talk loud around it. Right, right. And, um, I can't remember the formula, but I'm sure there was no so-called molecular so-called gastronomy.

[19:40] Right. Oh, the awful term. Well, look, here a souffle is basically this. You take and you make a base that's somewhat pre-aerated, right? And then you bake it so that it inflates by

[19:52] created steam and by the bubbles that are inside expanding or actually both. When it gets hot enough, it sets. And if you're good at it, the inside stays custody and delicious. So the way to make it stick around for a long time is to somehow set that initial base with something that when it's heated will release itself and allow itself to expand. So things like, uh, I've never experimented, things like gelatin, although gelatin's not

[20:20] free sloth stable, things like kerragin that are going to melt once they get up above about 120 degrees, which is really below a Fahrenheit, which is below or

[20:29] 140 I have to look it up, which is, you know, below where the maximum expansion this thing takes place. So you want to use a thermally reversible geling or stabilizing agent or combination of them that will allow you to get the rise that you want after this stuff

[20:42] remelts, but will gel up at a lower temperature. I don't have a particular recipe, but that's the tactic I would take. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thank you so much for your call. Do we have to go to a break or we have time? All right, we have to go to a commercial break, but please call in 718-497-2128 718-49728

[21:03] for the great Jeffrey Steingarden. Remember, he pulls no punches. people to know you're in, yeah. How you feel, fella? Yeah, yeah. Sure, getting down. Look him! Ha! We're gonna have a punk, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Now take them up, Fred. We've gotta take you home. All right. I'm gonna do it again. He won't do it again, huh? You gotta take it high.

[21:53] Brother! Yeah. Now I want everybody. Let bread blow my 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go into that business now, all right? All right, all right. I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Get a James Horn on me. Red, can it take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Fred! Man!

[22:37] Hello, this is Dave Arnold. You're listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network, calling with your questions for Jeffrey Steingarten at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And before we get on to our next caller, We had a question come in about purging clams beforehand, presumably to get the

[23:07] sand out. This comes from Adam Lazaric, and he's a chef down in Philadelphia, and he wants to know whether any of these purging methods really work, saltwater, freshwater, cornmeal,

[23:17] et cetera. I would not purge a clam in fresh water because they, the ones we usually get, the hard shell clams are, they're seawater animals. I know from experience that if you put clam in flavored

[23:29] water that, like, for instance, bacon, bacon and onion soup that has the same amount of salt in it as the ocean that they will open up, eat that, and get flavored like delicious bacon onion soup because this is something that I've done.

[23:41] And then you eat them raw, then it tastes like bacon onion soup. So I know I know that works. The cornmeal, presumably, is to get them to start eating. I don't know whether there's any truth to whether the cornmeal, it really makes them eat. I don't know why it would be cornmeal, let's say, and not flour or something else like that. Presumably some of the starch from the cornmeal is going to dissolve and make them make them eat it, whereas the rest sinks to the bottom. Maybe that's why cornmeal. But I wasn't able to find any specific studies, but the premise behind putting cornmeal in the clams is to get the clams to start to start eating. Dave, what about snails? I try getting snails to eat rosemary once to purge them out in the old Spanish style. I was not successful. They died and smelled god awful, and my wife basically forbade me from ever running experiment on snails in the bathroom again.

[24:29] I would do it. Oh, don't do it in the bathroom. Do it in the bedroom. Yeah. Well, I think that might get me an even more, even more trouble. There certainly, it's, but you, in the, in the, you know,

[24:44] classic style of paella, from Valencia, you purge the snails, not just for a Dave, for a whole period of

[24:54] time, on herbs, so that they taste like rosemary. And, um, I've never tried that. But I believe it. I've tried it unsuccessfully. And my friend Johnny Azini and I in London tried to fatten snails on

[25:08] milk, also with only marginal success. That's an old Roman technique. So I have not had much luck with... So it's your theory that the Romans and the Spanish are lying. No, it's my theory that I'm bad at it. I see. How about Johnny? He bad too. Yes, we're both bad at it. You know, I guess it takes more than a tech guy and a 3 star pastry chef to fatten a snail, at least to try and relearn how to do it. But, hey, I'll try it with you sometime if you'd like. You want to try? But when I lived half the time in San Diego. Every once in a while, your gardener would be filled with snails, every leaf would be, would have a snail on me. Um, and so I was going to eat them. But I had to do research 1st on the genus and everything and on whether there was going to be any poison involved. And by the time I did, and then I started waiting for the next snail infestation. There was no more styles. I happened to have a copy because I visited a snail farm. you know, just north of Tuscany, a copy of a book on snail farming that deals with most of the famous European

[26:16] snail varieties. It's written from an Italian viewpoint, but translated into wretched English, so I can read it. And we will go over the book together and see whether we can learn anything interesting about feeding snails.

[26:27] But finally, I was told that these snails were the same as the snails in burgundy, France, and that there was no reason not to eat them. can do an article after their referee. I didn't know that the Italians ate land snails. Yeah, I went and picked a whole bunch. They had a special Etruscan variety that's still grown in very small quantity at this farm called

[26:50] Lachocula that's way up in, or however you say, snail in Italian. And, uh, yeah, and I went and go went to pick them, the varieties called uh, rigatello, something like that. Like round, like a pinwheel thing. They're good. But they're smaller than the bigger ones that you get in burgundy, they're a lot smaller snail, but they were good. They tasted good. Do we have a caller or no? We have a color. Hello? I got a question about avocado puree? Alrighty. Uh, the whole pit thing. That's just bogus, putting the pit in your avocado puree. Correct. That never worked for me at all. Yeah, great. Lime juice is what I currently use about 3 quarters of a lime to one avocado. But sometimes it comes out just too acidic for me. Is there anything else I can use to combat the oxidation other than citrus here? Ascorbic acid. Straight ascorbic acid vitamin C from the, from the, um, what am I talking about? The pharmacy. Make sure it doesn't have rose hip and stuff in, just straight ascorbic acid vitamin C, has a lot more antioxidant power, and a lot less of that acid taste than using a lime, which is a mixture of ascorbic acid,

[28:03] malic acid, citric acid, and a pinch of succinic acid. So the ascorbic acid alone is going to work. Sodium, what is it, sodium meta by sulfite? Is that correct, Jeffrey? Sodium metabisulfite also works. Or packing in an actual, you know, a bag that's oxygen proof. Current plastic wraps are not very good oxygen barriers. No, at all. But also, remember that the lime of all the common citrus, the limes are the most acidic. Why would you use lime? I mean, as opposed to lemon or? Yeah. I actually try to use them from Yuzu and some other things, thinking that more is better, but... The user can be very acidic, though. Yeah. It's not the asset, it's not straight acid. It's not the pH that's preserving it. It's the ascorbic acid itself, which is, which is an anti, uh, oxidant that is, uh, actually stopping the brownie from happening. So it's not it's not really that you need to make it more acidic. So you might go for less acid fruit with a higher ascorbic acid balance, like lemon, or just use straight vitamin C. And a lot of people, you know, when they go out to buy vitamin C. They mistakenly buy citric acid, and citric acid isn't near the, doesn't have near the antioxidant power that ascorbic acid vitamin C does.

[29:15] Dave, can you just mash up a vitamin C pill? I've never done that because I think they have all sorts of other things to make it into a pill form

[29:23] like, you know, like little bits of calcium and whatnot and chalk and all this stuff. I buy the straight, straight powder, 100% vitamin C powder. But I hope this answers your question. Thank you. And we have another caller apparently for coming in. Hello? Hello? Hi, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, love the show. My name is Jason, call from Brooklyn. Hey, Jason. Uh, I was calling. I have a question. I'm into juicing and making smoothies and stuff like that, and I've had terrible experiences in the past picking out juicers and blenders, and I was leaning towards getting one of the, uh, you know, one of the expensive, uh, blenders that I've seen on the

[30:02] internet, and or on TV, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions on what would be the best, uh, the best method to go

[30:07] about, uh, picking out a blender. I'll start by saying this. Unfortunately, there is no single thing that will juice all things well. It depends on what you want to juice and what kind of results you want. If the question is, should I get a Vita Prep, the answer is undoubtedly, yes. Right, Jeffrey, or no? Yeah, I mean, the Vitaprep is an excellent piece of equipment, right? It's not a juicer, though. Um, you know, I would get a champion juicer for they're doing things like apples and carrots, and I would get a Vita prep for blending things. I mean, the ultimate juicer is a vitaprep, a bunch of enzymes, and a centrifuge, but that's a little above most people's... I bought a different blender. some kind of restaurant show. Peak ups who was on the floor and

[30:53] after these shows, you could often kind of offered them something and they let you take it home. And it was the big wearing, which is has the same power or a little more than the vina prep. And I've never found anything that has not pulverized within seconds. The only thing you have to do. I didn't do it the 1st time is to hold down the top because otherwise it goes all over the kitchen. Have you ever side-by-side compared it with the Vitaprep? No, I'd like to. you want to bring your... Yes, I would like I would like to do that. I mean, uh... Well, here's the thing. The 2 major blenders that I've used on the power side. I have not used Jeffrey's wearing is the K-Tech blender and the

[31:34] VitaPrep blender. You know, look, when you're talking about blending. There's 2 main things that you're worried about. One is the tip speed of the blades as they spin around because that is what's going to determine how much force is applied to your product.

[31:49] The other thing is, presumably the sharpness of the blades might matter for some, for some applications. And then the one that's not looked at a lot where Vitaprep actually kind of falls flat sometimes is in a pitcher design. You want you want good movement of the product through the blades. Otherwise, you have problems with improper mixing and also cavitation where you get, you know, big pockets of air where the blades aren't hitting things. So these are the 3 main things you want to look for in a blender. You know, and the power is basically a rating that just correlates somewhat with the ability to spin a blade around and to get a high tip speed going. But, you know, they're not really great juicers. Blender is more of a blender. If you want to make juice, right? The choices in the low range, I would get a couple $100 champion juicer, which juices most

[32:35] things, won't juice wheatgrass or a sugar cane. But they're great juices. He was talking about smoothies. Oh, smoothies. Oh, yeah, then a blender is what you want. But if you're going to make juice. I mean, when I think juice, I'm thinking like a liquid, juice. If you have a lot of money, the neutrafaster kind of kicks butt. That's the big one that they're monsters, man. I went to a show, uh, uh, and I, you know, and I'm used to juicing carrots and apples and stuff like that, and we all joke about how we're making our uh, forearms into, you know, giant monstrous forearms by jamming

[33:05] apples, case after case, into these machines inducing them. So I walked up to this other, you know, this neutral. It's neutrafaster. the name, tried to, you know, I thought I was going to have to force the apple through and it basically ate the apple. I didn't even have time to push on it. That's how that's how awesome it is. But that's like a $5000 problem, right? The champion's like a $200 problem. How much is the Vita Prep, like a $300 problem? $400? Yeah. But I will definitely side by side mine with yours, Jeffrey, and we will

[33:30] see we'll see what we think. The reason the K-Tek is back. Dave, didn't you invent a hand blender? I did. I invented a hand blender that is almost as good as the Vita Prep. It has it's got a very high tip speed. It spins at 24,000 RPM with quite a bit of power and it's got a variable speed. It's got a variable speed trigger. I mean, it's pretty, it's nice. It's not. I mean, it's nice. not going to lie. I have one? When I make another batch, you will definitely be on the 1st list of people that

[33:56] will get one. All right. Well, let me answer a couple questions. I have one that a quick one from Michael at herbivoration. How do you spell herbivoracious? He wants to know whether there's any transglutaminate, transgataminate is meat glue, it glues meat together. Actually any proteins. Wants to know if there's any applications for vegetables. Well, tofu can be strengthened with translutaminates, and yogurts, and other dairy systems can be strengthened with translutaminates. You can glue vegetables together with translutaminates, but unfortunately, you have to use gelatin as a helper protein. And this is something that Wiley, my brother-in-law has tested out quite a bit, where he cross-links, gelatin to form noodles out of vegetables, using translutamates, but unfortunately, gelatin is not vegetarian.

[34:47] The 2nd question he asks is, can melons be compressed without a vacuum machine? It's tough. No, yeah, you can infuse without a vacuum machine, but I have not found any way to compress without a vacuum machine. Could I just add that, um, I

[35:07] have never eaten anything. I believe that was made with meat glue. That was worth eating. I'm sorry, Dave. Wow. Wow. What does that mean? How do you know that you've, how can you, 1st of all, the question is, what do you mean? And secondly, how would you know whether or not Miklu was used necessarily? Because you asked them, how did you make this? In every case? If someone just hands you a piece of meat that's not necessarily obviously been meekly. You ask them whether it was meat glut or not? So, then I would love, probably love to taste it. Most people don't do that, most people use it to play tricks.

[35:45] For example, your and Nils Dutcher Duckan. First of all, you had a very early version of it. First of all, let me just say you had a very early version of it. Traditional turducken is an abomination because it cannot possibly be cooked, right? It is not true that there is an okay way to overcook duck. And it's also not true that it's okay to just bathe overcooked duck in fat and sauces and

[36:07] then pretend that you haven't overcooked it. But who said there was? Well, I'm presuming that you're sticking up for traditional traducking. No. No, okay. But you had a very early, early version of the show. better than the Miklu version. No, well, 1st of all, as I said, you had a very early version. Second of all, I think you were wrong, that most things are used for special effects. The most general use for meat glue is just in making portions that cook evenly and nicely. I mean, that's the majority of the use. It just doesn't get any of the press. Well, we'll have to discuss the, um, Um, I can't remember the name of the cut anymore that they have at, um,

[36:51] with your brother-in-law's restaurant, to pay you flat iron. Yeah, and you take out the cartilage piece? Yeah, yep. I didn't see the purpose. Because, although you hate this sort of thing. There are people who don't like to cut around the cartilage when they eat something. Well, it would be better not to have cartilage, but, um, maybe the flat iron isn't the best steak to eat in the 1st place. You don't think it tastes good? Not as good as, I'd say, the 30 other parts of the car. Wow. The steer. Yeah, steer. I'm sorry. All right. Well, let's let me one more quick question because I already asked one question from Greg, but not the one

[37:30] he actually wanted us to answer. So, uh, Greg emailed us and said, uh,

[37:36] can I talk a little more about reducing the uh, capsation level in uh, peppers, uh, hot peppers,

[37:42] habaneros, specifically, uh, because he uses a surgical technique to remove the inside of the skin to get rid of the uh, majority of the capsation to make them not as uh,

[37:50] hot. Presumably he does this because habaneros have a unique and amazing floral aroma and taste. He's interested in using an enzyme that we use called SPL,

[38:01] or former one called Peelzyme that kind of destroys tissue. He wants to know whether we can basically erase this layer of tissue on the inside of the pepper that has the

[38:09] cepstation. Unfortunately, the stuff that it, that in a pepper, the thing you eat is the mesocarp, right? That same mesocarpon as citrus fruit is the albedo, right? So the stuff that's dissolved by peelzyme, which is this enzyme, is the actual meat of the pepper. Now, the majority of capsation in a pepper is contained on the inside surface of the inside skin of the

[38:29] pepper, inside. and somewhat in the veins. So you could preferentially melt the top layer away with this enzyme, but then you're going to contaminate the

[38:38] whole the whole pepper with it. So I don't think it's necessarily going to be helpful. I think you're much better using what you do now, which is using knife. just a pain in the butt. Another route you might take is to look for a source

[38:50] of, how do you pronounce it? Ahi, ahi, ahi, pepper, ahi, AJI, Dulce. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Anyone? Uh, it's called, it's a sweet pepper that looks like a habanero and supposedly has the aroma and taste of a

[39:05] habanero, comes from without the spice. It comes from Venezuela. I've only had 3 or 4 of them in my life and I didn't find them to be quite as floral or aromatic as a habanero, but they're in the same

[39:18] ballpark and they require no manipulation whatsoever. I believe they are a characteristic ingredient in some traditional Venezuelan dishes, but I have never been to

[39:27] Venezuela. So I don't know. But also Peruvian food. And um... But

[39:35] also in Ecuador and Ceviche. The Ahidulce? Yeah. Yeah. Do you think it has as good an aroma or taste as the habanero? Well, it's interesting. I think this is a very interesting question and an interesting idea because we all know that different peppers have

[39:55] wonderful, different kind of aromatic and floral tastes, but you can rarely taste

[40:01] them because your tongue is thinking about other things. Right. So I think that's just a wonderful question. I don't see why it's such a, Dave, what did you call it, pain in the bud? Is that what? Yes, pain in the butt. the words you used? Yes, yeah. To, um, you know, uh, in the past in in restaurant kitchens, they used to even peel grapes or, um, for a terrible dish, yeah,

[40:27] silver on eke, right? That's a terrible thing. Yes, that's right. Or, um... David

[40:33] Boule, when

[40:39] he was introducing a version of Joe Robichon's famous mashed potatoes, using the hot potato,

[40:47] although he was using fingerlings, and they have to be

[40:50] peeled and they're small. And so he had a whole, he said, he supported a whole Salvadoran

[40:59] family to peel hot potatoes. all day long for his potato puree. And so that was a good thing supporting them by rather than supporting them by doing something else? Well, one of them went on to Harvard and got a Nobel Praj. This is what we call a lie. Is this true? No. Yeah, this is a lie. yeah. Yeah, that seems like, you know, Marx's dream, someone sitting in a basement peeling tiny little potatoes constantly, you know, nice, great. Anyway, the kitchen. What should he have had them do? A lot of kitchen work, though, is nice and dehumanizing. You got to get into the Zen of it, right? Jeffrey? like that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, but he's not peeling the outside of these peppers. It peeling the inside. And the real problem is, is that any sort of contamination, and you've just ruined your whole job, you know what I mean? That's kind of probably the panel. No, could you explain that again? So he's like, he's like taking and cutting the cap off and removing it carefully without cutting all the way through, popping it off, opening

[41:55] it, and then removing the inner skin, presumably without slipping and contaminating and getting the super hot parts into the not so hot parts.

[42:03] seems difficult. But he doesn't have to be 1000% accurate, you know? I mean, he's trying to get rid of of much of the, you know, of the habanaros hotness in order to be able to

[42:17] taste the floral part. It can still be a little hot. Yeah, I guess I guess you are correct. And I think the other thing to do is to buy a rotary evaporator. I don't know. I was specifically told last week not to mention buying a rotary evaporator as the... I would love to have one. played with yours, though. Well, you're welcome anytime, Jeffrey. And here's another question that comes in. Matt from Chicago. And this is right up Jeffrey's Alley as well. I recently bought a bag of MSG from my local Asian grocery store to experiment, but whenever I use it, I

[42:45] can't help to be reminded of instant soup mix, is there a secret to help using MSG to blend with other flavors. And before I let Jeffrey launch into this, because this is a subject dear to his heart, I will just say you're probably using too much because MSG is not used in the same quantities that you would use salt or other spices.

[43:04] And with that, I will hand it over to Jeffrey. Well, I'm afraid that I can't give you advice about about the best way to use it. One thing is, don't use it in soup. But you know, because you'll probably be able to taste or sense it too much. But you can certainly use it in many other things, and I just remembered that plutamic acid, MSG is, you know, the same flavor enhancer that's been used

[43:36] in, um, in Asia, uh, you know, drained out of giant kelp for many, many, many years. Yeah. And maybe you should try giant kelp. Yeah, we have, yeah, um, Kombu, for instance, for... But, you know, you're also, and I don't mean, you know, I think most of our listeners are not anti-MSG, but, you know, Jeffrey

[43:59] wrote, was very early writer in the food world on debunking the fact that you think you might have a reaction to

[44:08] MSG. Was that in your 1st book? Was that the man who ate everything? Um, I believe it was in the 1st book and it was called, it might have been the 2nd book, and it was called, why doesn't everybody in China have a headache? Right. And I actually did a survey in China. after lunch. Um, asking people, do you have headaches? What did they say? No one had a headache. That is actually an interesting... I mean, reading the literature on MSG is boring with the, and I'll try and get it and put it up on the form with the exception of one article written by a

[44:41] scientist, uh, who, um, just lamb base anyone. I mean, I'll have to get it, but, you know, the from a science standpoint, it's somewhat ludicrous, I think you have a reaction to it because your body makes more glutanic acid in your head than you could ever normally reasonably consumed because it's a

[45:03] neurotransmitter, and you need it to live. But that's, that's different. But don't you think that the original discovery of the Chinese restaurant syndrome, which was a phrase, um, invented by the New England Journal of Medicine, which captioned a letter, from a, a mass general, uh, doctor in Boston, who had this experience, and he wrote a letter,

[45:35] asked, to the England Journal of Medicine, asking whether anyone else had noticed this, because he became flushed after

[45:42] a large number of bowls of wanton soup. And in those days, Oh, so it was a England Journal of Medicine that thought of the idea of

[45:52] a Chinese restaurant syndrome, of course, that is no longer believed to be politically correct, even though

[45:59] it was the 1st discovery of it, there was in a Boston Chinese restaurant. Most people don't remember those days, say 1964, or so I do. And there's no doubt that they would jump huge amounts of MSG in wonton

[46:16] soup. And that if you drank it on an empty stomach, I think you probably could get a dose that if you're especially sensitive to it might affect

[46:26] you. Okay, well, the scientific literature on blood levels of glutamic acid upon consumption are that if you consume

[46:36] MSG, with any sort of food at all, your blood levels don't spike. But how about soup? Right. If you consume liquid only that doesn't have a lot of other stuff going on, it is true that you can get a spike in, um,

[46:50] englutaminate level in your blood that lasts, uh, up to 120 minutes. Yeah. So the, you know, there is that spike. It's only when you're drinking kind of only fluids, and it's only in really large doses. I don't know how much they were adding in Boston, but then furthermore, recent research on this has been that even at those levels, there doesn't appear to be that much of a, um, that much, I mean, or any really

[47:17] reaction. So that most of the studies that have shown reactions were not properly

[47:21] blinded. They weren't, you know, they would put MSG into a strongly flavored citrus beverage and

[47:28] assume that no one could taste the MSG. When studies are given of MSG in gelatin capsules consumed on an empty stomach, then there doesn't appear to be a statistical

[47:40] effect. I mean, I've been meaning to do a post-nist for a long time because I had to read like 600 pages of this crap because someone asked me a question once and I read like 600 pages of crap on

[47:51] MSG. So I can go back and kind of redo it because it was, you know, like 6 months ago or something that I did the research, but, I mean,

[47:57] is this jibe with what you remember, Jeffrey, or no? But let me ask you, David, before I asked you. But why you're being so, um, blage about the dangers of

[48:09] Karagina, um, there's a whole literature on that today. Well, I never, when was I blasé about the dangerous character? You would buy someone before. to put to Karagina and their food. Yeah, well, you advise. mean, like, we all advise things that aren't necessarily 100%, you know, it's a traditional

[48:28] ingredient, you know, it's a traditional ingredient. By the way, the research on carragin is only that certain types of

[48:34] carragin, I believe, kappa, carragin, specifically, in very, in low pH systems, in various acidic systems, might have some association with certain types of cancer.

[48:44] Um, I don't happen to use carrogen that often. Presumably, souffles are not a super high acid system. No. But anyway, we have a, we have a, we have a, you know, but I'm

[48:57] sure I'm sure I'm going to get questions on that, uh, on that soon. All right, we have a caller coming in. Yeah. Hi, Dave, this is Ken Christianbaum. Hey, hey, Kent. Good to speak to you. Listen, I have my own notion on what's going on with MSG. And that's that there's these persistent anecdotal reports that there is a reaction.

[49:15] So what could be happening? Well, one of the ways that MSG is produced is by microbial fermentation. And if the purification from the fermentation is not done properly, I think there could be other compounds in that preparation that could

[49:31] give, you know, negative reaction. And so even presumably that would be something that was more prevalent in the past. Yeah, I think they've gotten a lot better at the fermentation and purification techniques and that I'm not surprised that there might have been more of these anecdotal reports back in the 1960s than there are now.

[49:49] That's interesting. I never thought about that, by the way, for our listeners, this is Kent Kirschenbaum, one of the founders of the experimental cuisine collective and professor of polymer chemistry at NYU. That's correct, right, Kent? Pretty much. That's it. As I was able to find out if you write anything. about MSG that is not negative, or at least if you're one of the 1st ones to have done that, there are hordes of people out there who are sure that their children were brain

[50:18] damaged as a result of the MSG and their food. The studies on brain damage. Okay. So brain damage and MSG is a very interesting question. MSG is actually used as an agent to cause brain damage in neonatal rodents. The blood brain barrier and a neonatal rodent is nowhere near as developed as the blood brain barrier in a human being.

[50:39] They fed absurd doses to these rats and mice to cause brain damage on the equivalent of a

[50:46] full-grown man eating something like 250 grams of straight MSG in a sitting on an empty stomach. The similar doses were tried on neonatal monkeys, and unfortunately, and

[51:00] they were shown not to have that brain damage effect. So I know that those studies have been thoroughly debunked, but I mean, that has nothing, but that doesn't address really Kent's question on whether it's possible that there was a 2nd contaminant that would cause some sort of reaction back in the 60s and

[51:18] 70s. I don't know. Basically, I believe we're talking about 1963. Not necessarily the 50s. But let me ask you, Dave, some people objected, um, and I

[51:32] assume they were wrong. When I was talking about how a, um, There was an Australian study, although again, the MSG was supplied by the

[51:41] Agenda Moto Company, so people are always suspicious. Obviously, they were the largest manufacturers of industry. Anyway, there was an Australian study showing that there was more glutamic acid in an Italian meal, largely because of

[51:56] the, about tomatoes and the Parmesan. Then in a Chinese meal. Also, we know that in Japanese meal was there could be the more glutamic acid, and no one talks about the, the, um, the Japanese restaurant syndrome. But is it possible that natural grutamic acid is different? I don't see how that's possible. I mean, I know that, you know, what Kent was saying that it might be contaminated, but I mean, it's the sodium salt, basically, of glutamic acid. It is providing, by weight, I think, roughly one third of the sodium that table salt would. So there's extra salt. There's extra sodium involved, but I don't see how it's, I don't see how it's possible because it's also produced from a biological system. It's not, it's not produced. It's not like you're dealing with like a different, you know, isomer or something like that. I mean, they're both produced biologically. Um, I don't I don't see how it could possibly be different. Ken, are you still there? Do you see a way that could be different or is Ken already gone? I don't see how it can be different, to be honest. And as far as the salt form of it. I mean, once it hits your stomach, that that counter ion is going to be swapped out almost instantaneously. So I agree with you, Dave, on this, that I think it would be hard to imagine how there could be differences in the monosodium glutamate

[53:21] itself. Now, there could very well be differences in the, you know, one% or

[53:26] 0.one% of whatever additional material is there in the commercial

[53:30] MSG as opposed to what's in your your natural food. Right. I mean, I think a lot of the reaction has to do is when people eat something that's unfamiliar to them, they then have a reaction because they've eaten something unfamiliar,

[53:42] I've been poisoned or I've eaten something terrible, and then they have some sort of reaction to it. And I think some of the studies have shown that these effects that are linked with the syndrome, we'll call it, are basically just the effects of eating unfamiliar foods on people's

[53:59] psyche. I don't know what you guys think about. Although the, the, 1st report, the New England Journal Medicine was, um, Um, By a a doctor of a Chinese ancestry. I remember this yeah. who ate a lot of wonton soup in Boston all the time. So I don't think he was put on. Did he have a headache all the time or just once? No, he got flushed. He didn't have a headache. But all the time? He got very flushed. He only reported once. I went back and read that, and it also seems a little bit tongue in cheek and then was taken seriously by a lot of people. I mean, that's why they named it Chinese Restaurant Syndrome in the New England Adrenaline's Medicine. Right. Dave, let me ask you a question if I could. Alright. When I was doing an article a long time ago on whether it was bad to eat salt. Um, I came across a number of papers. showing that even those people who were so sensitive and had a blood pressure reaction to a high salt diet, did not have the same

[55:12] reaction, to other sodium compounds. For example, baking soda and baked goods. Even though in the very old days, doctors also warned you not to eat too many baked goods. Because of the baking soda, but when it was tested on people, there was either no reaction or very little reaction from all the other sodium compounds.

[55:38] I mean, in our, in our diets, now we probably have 50 or 100 sodian compounds. Before I let Kent answer, because he actually probably knows what he's talking about, I will ask you this, Jeffrey, before

[55:48] we. The answer is, did they measure for like actual moles of sodium consumed or just weight of the compound sodium bicarbonate, which is a lot heavier than salt per mole.

[55:59] Dave, I have to assume that because they were sonages. that they measured the right thing. I would not assume that, actually, because I've read I've spent so much time reading crappy scientific papers that I can never assume that somebody has measured the proper proper thing.

[56:17] Ken, what are your thoughts? I'll hand it over to you. Yeah, I agree with your jaundice assessment of the scientific literature. And because of it, I'd hesitate to answer what exactly was going on in those studies unless I'd read them and

[56:32] pored over those kinds of details. Well, it's certainly true that in the popular literature, and in the press releases of people like Mayor Bloomberry, salt and sodium are used interchangeably, and there's no attempt to get sodium out of our fast

[56:51] food out of our diets. There's only an attempt to reduce the amount of solve. And, well, that the question is, how are they going to measure it? Like, am I allowed to then add some sodium some sodium compound and then add a chloride compound and end up with sodium chloride in my in my

[57:07] product? Is that legal? Is that going to be okay now? I mean, the whole thing about reducing salt seems to be, I guess it's the next crazy thing that's going to happen to us, huh? I think it's it is time for all good people to start

[57:21] doing and reading more of the research. I'm publishing it in letters to the New York Times. And the

[57:28] LA Times and the San Francisco Chronicle. I mean, it seems and, you know, Kent and I have talked about this a lot. Kent, you should come on the show sometime, actually. We've talked about this a lot, which is no one, even scientists who are researching things outside of their normal field, like

[57:44] doctors, tend not to do the tend not to do the level of research into the quality of the science that they're quoting when they talk about nutrition. And so much of it is just crap. Um, and crap based on other crap. If you read the, you know, the citations of some of these studies site, which is why whenever I research something, I end up having to read five, 600

[58:09] pages, because you have to burrow back and find the source of crap. And, you know, I know, Jeffrey, you do this whenever you research something, you'll research something and then the sites of the sites and the sites of the sites, but who has the time? I mean, Jeffries made a career on being thorough. You know what I mean? But you know, most people don't. But, you know, one thing that I took a back in, say, you know, 1992

[58:30] and I, if I read all all the literature as of that time, there was no doubt there was nothing to show that there was a connection, but between eating salt and then having a blood blood pressure, except among, say, 6% of the

[58:49] population to the population. And the head of the, um, of the New York hospital,

[58:55] uh, comprehensive hypertension study, but certainly agree with me. He thought it wasn't as high as 6%. He's what it was, you know, as low as 5%. Then all of a sudden, I noticed 5 years ago that there was a, but by the way, there were a lot of doctors and scientists at that time who

[59:16] founded but very threatening because their whole lives have been based on a career of advising people not to eat salt.

[59:26] But the backlash back in those days was not very

[59:33] strong. And then I noticed starting 5 years ago, there was a huge and sudden campaign. By all these people again sold. And I thought we had defeated that. That's what I thought. I thought it was all good, and then some of some medical students sent me, you know, sent me a letter or an email, you know, you know,

[59:55] saying, strong yard, you know, don't you realize you were totally wrong about, and then we had many exchanges? And they... There was a big worldwide study called the Intrasold Study, and I can't remember exactly what it was. It was 1988 or no, in 89. Um, and all over the world. The people took urine samples in order to determine how salt had been eaten by that person. And I took their blood pressure. They took several urine samples from each person and they sent it to different laboratories in Europe, but after freezing it. I mean, it was a massive and that seems to me to have been an extremely meticulous study. And there was a correlation. But after you eliminated certain, if I may call

[1:00:51] them, uh, primitive people who ate no salt at all, because they didn't have any salt. So,

[1:00:58] like the end of Momo Indians, who were always used as kind of poster Indians for

[1:01:04] for this proposition. But even ignoring the fact that between 13rd and a half of all the males

[1:01:14] and the Yanamongo society died from the homicides. They have other issues, they do. Many other issues that I think probably came from not having enough salt. So they packed those strange narcotics into their noses because of lack of salt. Okay, so if you eliminated for extremely low sold societies, If you only had kind of normal people, there was no coralition. Alright. Well, they're going to make us leave soon. Brandon comments had a question on ice, which I'll address on the blog in a post coming up soon. So Brandon, sorry to keep you waiting, but I have one question that came in from, I believe, Ben at Little Wing, and he wants to hear Jeffrey

[1:01:52] Steingarten's opinion on what makes the perfect French fries. So what we're going to do is I'm going to sign off now and then I'm going to have Jeffrey just talk about the perfect French fry until they cut us off.

[1:02:02] This is cooking issues with Jeffrey Steingarden and Nastasia Lopez coming to you live every Tuesday

[1:02:07] to this week, an hour from 12 to one and Jeffrey, the perfect French fry, if you would. Thank you very much, David. very enjoyable. Oh, thank. Very enjoyable. Well, except... But we're not on the air anymore. No, we're on the air. They're going to let you talk about French fries for a minute, and at certain points, like the Oscars, the musical coming. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. But I think the characteristics of the French fry have been, I think, laid out, although it didn't

[1:02:44] take you get brain surgery, by Dave on his, on the blog. Thank you. Um, Chris. but very friable outside. Not too thick. Um, and almost like mashed potatoes inside. Yeah, there's another kind of perfect French fry, which is hollow inside. You don't like that. But it can be also delicious because it is like a long, a long, rectangular baton

[1:03:16] shaped potato chip. And as we know, potato chips are as good as French fries. They're delicious. They are. Oh, I must also say he wanted to know about horse fat because he hasn't tasted. He wants to know your opinion on horse fat and fries. Oh, there's no doubt to me that horse fried gives you the best fries. And after I wrote my article. I was kind of sad about this because I had a hard, hard time getting horse fed. And then someone I knew in Paris. Actually, it was, um, it was Alex, um, Alex Guanashelli, who's now a chef. who was working as a research assistant for Patricia Wells, and she found in a supermarket. These sticks of horse fat, they were packaged like butter. In where? Paris, France? Oh, we should go. We should go. I wonder whether those still doing that. I wonder whether it's constitutional. that how Congress has passed laws against the eating of horses in America. Well, the French have always been great horse eaters. I've just been reminded by Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, that I've forgotten to mention our sponsor. Today's excellent show was brought to you by the good folks at tech serve. Tech Service, New York's premier authorized Apple reseller and service provider serving individual customers, creative professionals and Fortune 100 companies. Tech service built a solid reputation on expertise in technology sales and service as a company that believes in honest and forthright business practices, tech service, proud to

[1:04:47] sponsor, heritage radio network, and the promotion of sustainable lifestyles, but they're for Mac only people. Cooking issues, and thank you to Jeffrey Steingarten. Fishes, fish, rock, crap. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at.