[0:00] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area, and we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio, and we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Roberta's

[0:16] and their studio, because they talk to people who are serious about food, and that's what we are at

[0:22] Fairways. We're serious about food. We just care very deeply about, about you as a customer and how you cook, and what you cook with and how you entertain. And that's why we love to support heritage

[0:35] radio, because it's pretty much the same thing. It's wanting to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and

[0:44] care about learning everything there is to learn about it. And that's, that's, we're kindred spirits. If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're going to find it at Fairway. And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're going to find them on

[0:59] heritage radio and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins, Fairway Mark.

[1:19] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, you're hosting cooking, and she's coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network. Every Tuesday from about 12 to 1245. Call in all of your questions, cooking, or non-cooking or technical related to 718-497-2128.

[1:40] That's 718-497-2128. Sadly, I am not joined in the studio today by Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, because she is on vacation in Rhode

[1:49] Island up at Watch Hillness, but she is calling in, so I think we have her Nastasia there. Yeah, hi. Can you say sadly? Did you say sadly, are not in there? in the studio? Yeah, sadly. Is that bad? Oh, thank you. So uh, how's uh, how's Rhode Island up there? Um, the beach is beautiful. Very gorgeous. I know you've seen I know you've seen every beach. Yeah, yeah. Well, well, I've seen and try to avoid most beaches. My, you know, my wife likes me to go to beaches all the time, but I'm, 1st of all, so white that everyone thinks there's a 2nd son on the beach, even though I'm completely clothed head to

[2:27] toe, whenever I go to one, I also detest sand, although I do like foraging for things on the beach.

[2:32] In fact, that's one of my favorite things to do. So that's basically the only way you can get me to do anything is if I'm going to forage for food. I remember when I was a kid, I used to, we used to go to the Cape all the time, and I used to, basically all I would do is go around looking for cohogs

[2:46] and uh, clams and mussels, depending on on where I was, because uh, that's basically all I like about being outside is finding food. What about you? There's a foraging session at 4 o'clock. So I'm gonna do that. You gonna do it? What are you going to forge for for plants? have no idea. I have no idea what they're going to do. It's a surprise. A lot of good foraging to be done on the shores as well as in the

[3:11] water close to the beach. I've never done it in Rhode Island, though. I mean, I've done a lot in Maine. They, the famous, uh, you know, dead for a long time, but famous wild food writer, maybe the 1st big, famous one here in, in the, uh, US, Yule Gibbons, wrote a specifically small manual for New England seacoast foraging, but it's more for Maine, but there's just a wealth of things you can eat on the, on the beach from, uh, like Oric, which is like Lamb's quarters, which is great for a salad or a version of sea beans or like wild sea rocket, which is like a, like wild rocket, like

[3:46] arug but more succulent and like crunchy, and also a little more bitter, like mustardy green, but the stuff just grows wild along the beach. You know, it's crazy. And depending on, I think it's a little early, but like beach plums, you know, I mean, there's just fantastic amounts of things you can forage along the

[4:04] beach. And I think one of the reasons is because a lot of it, you're not allowed to kind of mess with anymore from, you know, from a development standpoint. So if you're in a place that's not built up. probably got a lot of that good stuff just lying around, right? Oh, I forgot to give you your service berries yesterday. Oh, I know. Nastasia's buddies went and foraged in Brooklyn, apparently, said for service berries, a.k.a.

[4:29] there's a 1000000 different names from Shadbury's and whatnot. I've never actually had them. Were they good? Uh, they were okay. I mean, it's exactly what they said. It was like blueberry texture with a raspberry taste. We made a pie and it was disgusting. Why was the pie? Why was the pie disgusting? I messed up the crust and then the crust infiltrated the berry filling and it was

[4:51] just, what? What did you, what did you do for the crust? What did you, let's analyze this. This will be our 1st problem on cooking issues. What did you do for the crust? I used Crisco? What? Well, it was Pat's mom's recipe. And he was like, mom makes this. You need to make it like this. And I was like, all right. So it was 2 cups of flour, 3 quarter cup of Crisco, and cold water, and salt, and that was

[5:17] it. Right. What happened? It, it wouldn't roll, and when I picked it up, it would crumble apart, so I made a 2nd one, and then that one wouldn't roll. So then instead I took the ball and I put the ball in the center of the pie, uh, pie tin, and then I spread the ball out with my

[5:35] finger so that it made a sort of crust around it, and then he insisted that there'd be a pop crust, and so I rolled out a pop crust and then carefully placed it on top, but it was all crumbly and

[5:45] gross, and then, yeah, and then that crust broke into the filling, and as it was cooking, that. Yeah, you

[5:53] didn't use enough water. Everyone's petrified about using uh, the too much water and so they make a, they make a one that's not bound. If you use, I can't really in my head calculate, you know, cut measures of flour to Crisco. Um, but the, uh, you know, if you use enough of fat, right? And you incorporate it correctly into the flour base. I usually add a little sugar because it colors it up really nicely and salt. Then, uh, you know, you you put the ice water in and you don't really have to worry about it getting to, uh, the gluten developing too much and getting tough as long as you are pretty quick about it. I tend to never use Crisco. Um, you know, I don't stock it. I think, you know, lard is freaking delicious. Lard Lard's amazing. The problem with lard is that if you, you know, the hydrogenated lard is not so good, but the hydrogenated lard is good from a texture standpoint, even though it's extremely soft,

[6:57] whereas home rendered lard tends to have a solid fraction and a liquid fraction, the liquid fraction is just too liquid to really do it

[7:04] properly, so you want to take the more solid fraction. And if you use lard, you want it to be really, really, really chilled, really chilled. But that gives kind of like a little like savory note to pastries that I think is really lacking in most modern pies that don't use lard.

[7:20] But even, and then, you know, barring that, even though the texture, theoretically, isn't quite as

[7:24] good using butter as using Crisco, butter pie crust are freaking delicious. I mean they're... Yeah, I wanted to use butter and Pat was insistent that I use Crisco. And I didn't even have Crisco in the house, so he had to go buy it, but I had butter, you

[7:38] know? I mean, the way Crisco, you know, the particular fat melting characteristics of Crisco, plus the fact that it doesn't have any, you know, it doesn't have water in

[7:48] it, the way that butter does kind of make it have that kind of unique Crisco texture that some people really, really

[7:55] like. I don't think it's necessarily worth it. I've never been a big fan. I mean, even prior to trans fat days. I mean, Crisco, I thought was good for certain applications, like certain frying applications,

[8:09] donuts, you want to hydrogenated fat because once they cool down, a donut fried in regular oil is going to taste in

[8:17] liquid, fat, liquid oil is going to taste really greasy, whereas something fried in

[8:22] a hydrogenated fat is going to taste more like a donut, right?

[8:27] I mean, the flip side of that's also true. So for instance, you want to fry, fry potato chips in, uh, in liquid oil, if you fry potato chips in a solid fat, they taste not oily, greasy, and they leave like

[8:40] this, like, grease coating on your tongue when you eat them, similar to what a donut might do, but in a potato

[8:44] chip that's considered extremely bad. In fact, um, that is the story behind the whole kind of uh, oh, remember

[8:52] Olesco? Wow. Remember that? Yeah. So for those of you that don't remember, Olestra, basically there's a technique that they applied, they can apply it to any fat. And it makes it says that you can no longer digest the fat, right? And so this was, you know, heralded years ago as like, this is

[9:09] going to make it so that you can eat unlimited quantities of fried

[9:13] foods and it's going to have the same effect on your waistline as if you ate everything steamed.

[9:17] Basically. That was the that was the deal. A couple of problems with it were, one, when you do this procedure, you're no longer absorbing the fat, but

[9:27] that those fats still tend to, the fat soluble vitamins also then tend not to be absorbed. So you're lacking in fat soluble vitamins. That's the one problem. And two, if it's a liquid fat, right? Like if you were to do it to make Alestra olive oil, let's say, I don't know how I'm going to put this in a way that's not gross, but it basically runs through your system and

[9:47] not your butt, right? And so that was what led to the phenomenon, and there is no

[9:53] polite, it's a technical term known as, um, uh, anal leakage, right? was what they called it, right? Now, similar phenomenon, by the way, with this new, uh, new, like 3 years

[10:05] ago product called LI. Remember, you know, you've heard of a lie. It's spelled kind of weird, but that's the diet pill that came out. Yeah, it's a diet pill, that basically you can eat, and it stops you from absorbing fat. And I tested

[10:18] it, and the same kind of a thing happens. You don't want to consume a lot of liquid fats when you're on a lot. I don't even know if they sell it anymore, that stuff a lot. anyway. So back to where we're going. So what happened was, is they were frying potato chips in, uh, in liquid, um, in an oil, liquid

[10:36] oil-based uh, elestra product, and basically, it just ran straight through the test subjects, right? And that's where it picked up the really bad, bad, bad press that if you ate this, you were going to have all kinds of, you know, gastrointestinal problems and

[10:52] it was going to, you know, you're going to set yourself on spray and whatnot. So, but the manufacturer, I forget who it was who did it with

[11:00] Proctor and Gamble, whoever, that they basically were like, okay, no,

[11:04] it was free delay, actually. It was free delay. Uh, they uh, they're like, okay, look, here's what we have to do. We have to use a hydrogenated fat. So that it's going to be a solid in your body and it's not just going to dribble through you like your one long pipe. Do you know what I'm saying? So then they started frying potato chips in solid Olestra, and they no longer had the underwear problem, but no one liked the taste of the potato chips,

[11:29] right? Because you don't want solid fat. You don't want your potato chips fried in solid fat. Okay, so what did they do? They invented this new system, this air curtain, this hot air curtain where they would fry the potato chips into solid Olestra, and then they would put it on a conveyor and blast it with hot air. And the hot air

[11:49] would, you know, nuke the surface coating of the, uh, of fat right off the top of the chip. So that when you ate it, you wouldn't perceive as much the fact that it had been fried with a solid

[11:59] fat. All right? Um, and it wouldn't leak anymore, right? But the problem was, is that you could always kind of tell the thing had been fried in a solid fat. And most people then assume that they could. I could taste the orestro, you know, it doesn't taste good. I could taste. No, you can't. It's like the fact that they fried it in a solid fat is the problem. If they had fried it in, um, you know, in a liquid, alaska. You would never have been able to taste a difference except for, you know, you'd have to change your clothes a bunch. I mean, at one time, I thought that I thought that Alestro was going to be the wave of the future and that there would be, you know,

[12:35] you know, in the in the in the dining room of the future, every chair would be its own chamber pot, but that has not come to pass.

[12:41] Instead, we have we have shied away from that, even as a, you know, I assume that culturally we would embrace anything that allowed us to, you know, eat one thing constantly without it having an effect on our system, but for some reason, the bad press surrounding it still prevented us from embracing it

[13:00] wholeheartedly. Anyways, Olestra. Back to, and by the way, for a very good account of Olestra, you should read Jeffrey Steingarten's 1st book, the man... I always get it wrong. I always confuse it. I think I said this on the air before. Jeffrey Steingarten, our good friend, vogue food writer, you know, renowned author, television personality, lunatic.

[13:19] Um, he, uh, you know, he wrote a book called uh, The Man Who Ate Everything, and I always confuse it with the Oliver Sachs book,

[13:28] the man who mistook his wife for a hat. And so I always like, I'm like the man who mistook his wife for someone who ate everything. I always for some reason, I don't know why I confuse these 2 books together, but I always do. Anyway, he has an extremely interesting article in that about, and early, by the way, article on

[13:41] Olestra, which I recommend that you go read, but the other, well, one of the other must read

[13:48] articles if there, if there was such a thing in that book as a non-must read article. I don't know, but one of the must read articles in that book is on making pie crusts. And he basically goes through a 1000000 different pie

[14:03] crust, and then ends up hanging out with Marion Cunningham, who was the, you know,

[14:09] famous famous cookbook author and editor of, I believe, of the more recent

[14:14] Fanny Farmer. So it's been a long time since I looked it up. And basically, learns how to make pie crust from her, and it's extremely simple, and I use their recipe now whenever I can, which is you put an absurd amount of butter, cut it up, make sure the

[14:27] butter is pretty cold, put it in the flour, add to salt or whatever sugar you

[14:31] want. knead it in with your fingers until it resembles, like coarse, crumbly crap, like some things as big as peas and other things smaller, stir in

[14:39] water. It doesn't have to be crazy ice water. Make sure you have enough for it to bind together quickly, form it into a dough, roll it out without much ado, try not to

[14:48] re-roll it, and go. And that's like, you know, that's it. You know what I mean? Makes great, makes a great crust. You do it in the KitchenAid when you do it? Oh hell no. I use my hands in a fork. It's so simple. That's the thing. like everyone like, you know, they have these recipes. Like when you're making puff pastry, people use, for instance, the, uh, um, food processor to cut the, cut the butter in to get flakiness instead of having to

[15:12] make like, you know, the, the, the, the butter mixture, folding it over and rolling it a bunch of times with pie crust, there is never a reason to use any piece of mechanical equipment whatsoever.

[15:21] Like, you know, you just get a bowl and uh, put in the flour, put in the, I would say, butter, but, or I would say lard, and then barring lard, a mixture of lard and butter, barring a mixture of lard and butter, butter,

[15:34] barring that. I don't know, whatever in the hell you have lying around your house. But, yeah, Crisco, whatever. Um, but, you know, no offense to the Crisco people, except for the fact that it's because of Crisco and things like it that we no longer use

[15:47] lard, because there was a big switch away, but that's a whole separate story. We'll get into that maybe later. Anyway. So, uh, just put the, the, the flower stuff in and quickly with your fingers, like rub it. And Steingarten has a great description of it because if there's anything Steingarten

[16:03] is, is extremely anal about not just recording what you say, but what you do, that's why he likes to go into the

[16:10] kitchen and watch people cook. And so if you've ever cooked with him, he'll get something over the, over the phone or whatnot. He wants to show up and examine everything you're doing and he'll ask you constantly why you're doing X, why you're doing Y and doing readings. And it's because he knows that, um, regardless of what you say, right, you almost always do something

[16:32] else or you really don't understand why you're doing what you're doing anyway. And so he needs to basically decode it. And that's one of the reasons why he's been, uh, why he's so interesting and why he's been um, so successful. So he has a very good description of how to do it, but you basically just stick your hands in and you rub your thumb over your fingers

[16:50] like, like almost like you were snapping, but across all your fingers, but or like you were rubbing, or like you were rubbing through your fingers like your fingers were the tines of a comb or a fork and you're rubbing it through. So you just rub it in and then just stir in the water with a fork, gather it into a bowl with your hand and you're good to go. I mean, really, it's that freaking simple. There's nothing simpler than making a good pie crust, and yet there's nothing, there's few things that cause as much anxiety among people. Secondly, uh, you know, you know, no offense to uh, Nastasia's friend Pat here, but is he a, is he a known, good cook? Is he what? No one could be a cook? Yeah, is he a good cook? Then you should never listen to him about anything. his mom, his mom. Was his mom there? Then you should not listen to him. It's like saying, you know what? My mom, she's a really good doctor. My mom knows how to cure, you know, X, Y, and Z, or my mom's a good surgeon, so I'm going to listen to listen to me about how to chop someone's heart out. Really? No, you know what I mean? It's like, if the expert's in the room with you, then, you know, then follow the advice. But if, if, you know, if it's just some, you know, if it's like, you know, my mom's a good cook, well, you

[18:03] know. So what? You know, especially considering that there are 8000000 ways to do anything. And so, uh, and even perfectly. And that's my, that's always been my issue with, you know, magazines like the Cooks Illustrated, or even sometimes when, you know, when we, you know, when we write or when I write, you know, your urge is to say, this is the ultimate X.

[18:21] This is the ultimate why or the best, blah, blah, blah. In reality, there are a lot, there are a lot of things that are good done a bunch of different ways. And the idea isn't to find the one best way, but to have your way be coherent from beginning to end and to produce a delicious product. There are many paths. There are many ways. But anyway, so I've been blabbering on about the pie crust. don't we go to our 1st commercial break? Call in your question. It says 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.

[18:59] When the Black Friday comes. I stand down by the door. To catch the play,

[19:13] and when to die from the war, be it long. When black body comes I collect everything I

[19:25] know. And before my friends find out, I'll be on the door. When back it fall you know it got to be You'll make it go on me.

[19:48] Welcome back to Cooking Issues, calling all of your questions too. 718-4972128. 718-497-2128. Jack choosing the music today. Jack, what is that? I like that. Steely Dan. Steely Dan. Steely Dan taking their name, I believe, from a William Burroughs quote, right? It's, I believe, I, there's so many like un family-friendly things, but I believe Steely Dan is from a William, uh, William Burroughs book, and it refers

[20:20] to uh, a toy used uh, in private by women, a specific brand of them or men, I guess. I don't know. Is that is that true, Jack? That's true. Yeah. Interesting. Nastasia, you still with us? I'm having a frozen virgin lemonade. Well, what? Wait, are you having Adele's lemonade? I don't know. Some guy just handed it. Oh, Jesus, is it Dell's? Turn to the guy and say, is this a Dell's lemonade? No, he walked away. It just has lots of pieces of lemon rind. That's Dell's. That's dove. Really good. That's hilary. That is, you have Rhode Island in a cup. All right? So, like, that's one of like, here's the thing, right? Everyone says there's no such thing as regional, American, X, Y, or Z, and they're full of horse manure. Like, yeah, Rhode Island's got a couple of classic things. Anyone that's, I didn't grow up and around, but anyone that's grown up in Rhode Island knows Dell's lemonade and Dell's lemonade is famous for, um, you got

[21:19] the, it's like slushy one, right? And it's got little pieces of the lemon in it and it's classic, but they sell a package Dells that I've had that's okay, but it's

[21:30] not. I don't think it's the same thing that they use if you get it from the real Dell stand in Rhode Island, but I can't be sure. Any Rhode Island fans should call in and, you know, and there's, by the way, there's like a Rhode Island kind of a New York Rhode Island culinary mafia. Uh, you know, hello? Yeah, someone's putting together a table, of course, behind me because it can't be the show without construction going on. Sounds like a pig is running around behind you. It's snoring. Right? Yeah. So yeah, so like Wiley Dufre, my brother-in-law is Rhode Island. There's a gazillion New York chefs that are Rhode Island. Isn't uh, isn't uh, Kevin also from Rhode Island? Yeah. Yeah. Who else? Who else do we know from right now? Small state, a lot of chefs, right? Yeah, strange. Okay. Let me see. Oh, by the way, did I already say this? Call on your questions too. 718-4972128. That is 718-497-2128 Nastasia. You'll be glad to know that I in fact still have not memorized it, and Jack had to give me a card with

[22:36] the with the number. fact, I think you just play with me. No, I really have not memorized it. It's one of those things like, don't you have anything that you just have a mental block on that you can't that you can't memorize? Yeah, yeah. Okay. You know, I can memorize many things. The number of, uh, to call into the show is not not one of those things. But you say it was such a flow that you think that you'd memorize it, you know? You stay the same way every time. Right. Well, you know what? It's funny. It's like, uh, when you're reading something and maybe this is part of the reason when you're reading something, it literally just goes, uh, you know, from your eyes, out your

[23:11] mouth, and it's just, that's it. It's gone. And I had this happen when I was doing the IACP, the International Association culinary professionals with Chris Young, is the 1st time in my life. We were doing a presentation for the awards for the cookbook awards. And it was the 1st time in my life I've ever used a teleprompter. And I have no idea what I said. You know what I mean? It was like, you know, it's like, that's why, you know, you ever see those things where like the newscasters are sitting there and they'll,

[23:37] like someone will put something crazy in the teleprompter and they'll just start reading it with the same kind of

[23:40] emotion. You know, I always thought they were dumb, but now I really understand it. It's that you, you know, all you're concentrating on is delivering the text that's on the

[23:49] screen. And the mental activity it would take to process it at the same time is just, you know, too much.

[23:56] anyway. So maybe that's why. Maybe if I actually sat there, I could memorize it, but because I've never done it and I've just read it off the piece of paper, I'll never memorize it. do you think? Yeah. Oh, I was going to tell you, LA keeps asking about special treats that you like, so I've been sending them information on special things. Oh, Jesus, really? Honestly? Okay, so what Nastasia is referring to is I'm going off to Los Angeles. In fact, I have my bags with me now as soon as the show is over, I'm going to John F. Kennedy International Airport and flying to LA. We're shooting a pilot. Um, but I can't obviously talk about the pilot because then they would execute

[24:34] me. So apparently they have been emailing Nastasia saying what things that I enjoy eating. But the problem is, and this is an interesting fact for those that have never met Nastasia, is that she's vicious. She's a vicious, vicious Jack, true or false. Um... He's just nervous because he doesn't want to, doesn't want to suffer nostalgia's wrath when she gets back. But, yeah, Nastasia is, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so here's the deal. I guarantee you, and I'll find out when I get there. I guarantee you, Nastasia has only said either things that are embarrassing to

[25:10] me or that I actually despise, right? And the funny thing is, there are very few things I actually despise. She'll say something like this. get pretzel sticks, even though everyone on earth knows I detest pretzel sticks because they're not real pretzels. Specifically, I said real pretzels and they have to be in not. I like that, but do they even have those in California? I mean, that's an east coast thing, right? they have real pretzels? We have spiders. Siders isn't that bad, right? No, Snyder's okay. Snyders used to be one of the best, but they've been stale now for about 15 years or 20 years. The Snyders that come in a box have been stale, but that's old school. I used to eat those. That's what the Arnold clan has been, you know, my, I know I've discussed this on the air before, but I'm going to Florida soon,

[25:55] not only to taste mangoes, which, you know, maybe we'll talk about later if we have enough time, maybe

[25:59] not, with Nastasia and Harold McGee. And, uh, I'm hoping to get Tony uh, Konoyaro out, but I don't think he's going to be able to go. But, um, you know, anyways, right after that, I'm visiting my uh, 92-year-old uh, grandpa and my 90 uh,

[26:14] eight-year-old uh, great uncle, Uncle Luke. I think I told you this, my kids want to visit him because they think he's Uncle Luke Skywalker. They have no they have no idea. Anyway, um, he, uh, back in the Depression worked in a pretzel factory. And so back in the, because they're all from Lancaster County, you know, Pennsylvania. And so they, yeah, so I come from a pretzel eating background, you are not related to me unless you like eating

[26:39] pretzels. And the 1st thing you learn in my house is that pretzels must be twisted. So what else did you tell them I liked? Did you tell them I, but, you know, for those of you out there, if you want to send me something I hate? The only 2 foods in the world that I don't like are Nato, which is, I've discussed this, and Harold McGee says he has a Nato that I'm actually going to like, which is a fermented soybean product that to me tastes like garbage. And the other is melon. I don't like melons. So did you tell them to get me plenty of cantaloupe, even though you know I hate it? No, I'm not going to tell you what I told them. It'll be surprising you get there. It's going to be something like really embarrassing. Like, make sure... Hey, you know what? Here's what. going to go out on a limb. There are things that are people are embarrassed by that I am not embarrassed by. I am not embarrassed to have a big pink drink in my hands. Like a giant pink, fruity drink in my hands. If it's delicious. I have no problem with it, right? I mean, what do you think? Like, I know there are certain drinks that if I see a dude with them. I'm like, really? that what you're going to have. That's what you're going to drink, but like, I think that if there is a, if there's a really good drink, then, you know, you... You know what? Light beer would embarrass you more than having a drink with a flour garnish in it. I don't, yeah, I don't, I mean, look, I don't understand light beer. I really don't. I don't, I just don't, I don't, I don't understand it. I mean, okay, okay. One caveat. Like right now you're on the beach, right? Is it piss hot where you are? Yeah. Yeah, okay. So, I mean, you know, a corona has its place there, which is basically a light beer, right? I mean, because it's basically like, I want to have a little bit of alcohol and feel a little bit festive, but what I really want to do is drink seltzer water.

[28:17] Right? Right? So, like, you know, you feel a little bit bad just ordering a seltzer, and you feel bad ordering a light beer, so you order a corona, which is essentially a light beer without the light beer label anyway. How the hell do we get on this subject? I have no idea. Things you like and dislike. No, yeah, because of California. Anyway, okay. So let's get to a real question here. Uh, this is uh, this is from, uh, I hope I pronounce this right. Myrica. Hi, Nastasia and Dave. Perhaps, I was like, Oh, we got a call on. So, Mark, I'll get back to you one question in a minute. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, this is Josh and Tampa. How you doing, Dave? Hey, doing all right. Good. Got a question. A couple years ago I bought the Flavor Bible. It's got a lot of good ideas, but I wonder if you could elaborate on the actual act of balancing flavors. I know something's too salty. You could add something acidic and if something's too bitter, you add sweet, but I mean, how do you find tuna recipe? Huh, that's interesting. I actually own that, but I always I always mix it up with different books. Who are the authors on that one again? I couldn't tell you right off my head. Yeah, uh, the idea of balance is really, uh, it's really interesting. I tend, you know, if you, every cook has their own feeling for what

[29:31] they, what they do to, to balance and usually when you taste something, you know, you know why it's flat. If it, you know, if it, if it's flat. Also, by the way, when I'm balancing a dish, what I'll tend to do is take a little bit of that dish out and then play with that little bit of the dish on the side so that I can kind of see which direction

[29:49] my my additions are taking it so I don't kind of botch the whole thing up. But if something just tastes overall, like low in flavor, dead. I add a pinch of salt to see whether the whole thing wakes up a little bit. And if it does, I'll keep adding a little more. I mean, 1st of all, like getting the salt balance right, I think is the most important thing. And then the next one is, you know, almost always, um, you know, dishes, especially

[30:13] braises or any, anything like that, like big liquid-based things tend to be tend to lack

[30:19] acidity unless you specifically added it. Um, but, you know, typically you'll add those things uh, towards the end of cooking. So, you know, 1st I'll usually 1st check a salt component, and then I'll check a, uh, and then I'll

[30:32] check an acidity. And I personally do a lot of like meaty umami bolstering stuff either with fish sauce or with

[30:42] uh, or with soy. Um, so even in um, non-western, I mean, even in Western dishes, I'll end up hitting it with like a little bit of not like a, not a normal

[30:54] uh, fish sauce, one of the milder, more kind of meaty fish sauces like uh, like Ishiri from Japan or, or IU, which you can get from Japan. Um, because some of the, you know, some of the more traditional Southeast Asian ones can kind of quickly take on that Southeast Asian flavor otherwise, or tiny bits of

[31:12] soy, and not really so that you know you've done it just so that you kind of like really like,

[31:17] like blow something out a little bit. It just really changes it and rounds it into more meetings. So like even like in like a bechamel. Sometimes I'll add a pinch of those kind of things. I tend not to have MSG in my house or I might experiment with that. So in general, I don't do a lot of like masking, right? So, also, obviously you add sugar to things to round them out. But in general, what I think in terms of balance is that you want to get, you want to get the overall flavor pretty good. Like when you make a stock, right? You don't season the stock from the get go. You try to balance meat and vegetable, and it's very kind

[31:56] of, but when you taste it, you could tell what it could be, but it's very flat because it doesn't have any of the other things that are in

[32:03] it, and you want it that way because you're going to reduce it by a lot. And so that's when you bring out the balancing act. First, you pop up all the flavors by adding something like salt, which is going to enhance the flavor of everything. And then, or, you know, or something's too salty, you can add sweetness, which is going to balance out the saltiness, which

[32:19] was, I think, kind of the thing you were talking about before. The problem with that is that if you go that route, if you, what you don't want to be in a position of

[32:26] as having to tone down another flavor by adding another flavor on top of

[32:31] it, because then everything just gets kind of overwhelming over time, I think you, you know what I'm saying? Do you agree or no? No, I agree because I've been trying to make like an Asian style cedar salad using fish sauce and egg yolk and I've been trying

[32:43] to, hasn't been really going that well. Right. I mean, I think what you want to do on that, because that sounds actually like a good idea. You should try to source this stuff called IU, which is this IU sauce. It's a sweet fish from Japan, and I don't know who's carrying this stuff, but it's the most unbelievable fish sauce I've ever had. It's crazy because it's a dead cross between fish sauce and like bacon and ham juice. It's nuts. It's crazy Ah, you, AYU. Yeah. But the, I think it's available now, but I'm not sure. It's, it's, it's amazing stuff. But I think what you're gonna want to do on the on the fish sauce is use it as a very minor

[33:21] component. Do you know what I mean? Like, one dash of fish sauce in, like, a Caesar style thing is going to really pop and bring out that

[33:30] fish sauce, essence, especially are you are you doing it in addition to anchovy? No. Instead of anchovy. Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge anchovy fan, but, um, you know, there's another way to go if you want to go, uh, stick with a more Italian kind of flavor set. There's a fish, uh, product called Colatura, which is basically like, uh, like an anchovy like oil. It doesn't taste like fish sauce, but it's kind of in between like an, like it's not fermented, but it's got some of the kind of the funkiness of, uh, of, uh, anchovies. You can take a look at that. You can get that from Italian specialty markets, but they charge an arm and a leg for it. I think, like, if you were to go and use an anchovy, because I always put anchovy in my Caesar salad, you know, you

[34:15] crush, I'll crush it up for the flavor and also the emulsifying stuff. I tend to use salt pack anchovies because I like them a lot. But, um, I think a dash of fish sauce and that could really work well. The problem, how much were you adding before? Uh about a tablespoon? Yeah, so I would just go a lot less. I mean, fish sauce is one of those things where it's like small amounts, like add this kind of ineffable quality that, you know, that it's hard to get any other way. And then you add a little bit more and now it tastes Asian on you. Do you know what I mean? Which is good if that's what you're looking for. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do. The only thing I'm trying to find a substitute for the Parmesan or the aspect of it. Oh, yeah. It's not really a cheese thing going on. You mean, because you don't want cheese because of the Asian component or because, yeah, and

[35:01] it's interesting. Um, you know, the lack of dairy in uh, in Asian cuisine, something I've been studying uh, recently, uh, but also it's funny is the lack of dairy in uh, like Italian classic or a lot of European fish-based dishes.

[35:16] And I think that in the one case of dairy in Asia, A lot of China, for instance, in the north, and then, you know, even throughout the middle section used to eat a lot of dairy.

[35:27] And I think what happened during the Ming dynasty. There was a reaction against anything having to do with kind of like northern invaders that they had just basically thrown off the yoke from. And since dairy was considered something that came from kind of Central Asia and the north, they were like crap on dairy. We don't want to use it anymore. You know what I mean? And then in Italian and European food, I think the lack of dairy

[35:50] with, specifically with fish-based products, I guess, except for things like Caesar salad, which is not Italian, but, you know, as a European derivative, is that fish was eaten on fast

[36:00] days, and on fast days, you didn't have dairy. You only had, you had no meat and you had no dairy. So you had fish. And I think that's where a lot of the, you know, for instance, fish pastas don't have cheese on them because of this ancient, uh, not ancient, but this, you know, kind of old idea

[36:16] that you that, you know, on days that when you're having fish, you're not having any dairy. Anyway, but that's aside from the point. So, uh, it's very hard to substitute for, um, Parmesan very hard. Um, nothing kind of tastes like that. I mean, you can make an entirely different thing. In other words, you could use an egg yolk and then do like fish sauce and some sort of

[36:42] like, you know, something with a lot of enzyme breakdown products in it, like maybe like a

[36:46] miso and then, you know, lime juice. I think it would taste good. It wouldn't taste like a Caesar salad. Do you know what I mean? No, no, that sounds great. Yeah. Oh, and then, you know, if you're going to want to add some of the, the, that texture back, you could, uh, I mean, nothing has that texture

[37:02] either what has that texture. I mean, you could crumple something like very, you know, like, what could you crumple? I mean, I don't know if you like tempeh. Is the idea to go vegetarian except for the egg? No, there's no vegetarianness. All right, fish sauce. What the heck am I talking about? Brainless. Anyway, the, yeah, I'm trying to think of what I would add for the texture component of that. But I would try like a flavor base like that because that's delicious because the acid's really

[37:27] going to balance out the, I mean, official loss. I mean, that's classic. You know what I mean? And then I think the egg yolk is going to add some body that you wouldn't normally get in a anything like that, bring it closer to a Caesar salad. And, you know, there's so many different flavors to play with with miso that I think you can really balance then

[37:43] also, not just body, but sweetness and amino acid, you know, those amino flavors that you get in miso. So I would try that. Um, you want to talk about, uh, I mean, have you been offered any uh, TV jobs? I know like the celebrity chef is huge and your friends with a lot of the big ones. I wanna see if they can come your way. Because I've been reading your article. Uh, was it on, um, Food Republic? On, uh, oh, oh, uh, no, or eater? No, no. Yeah, well, it's an interesting thing. I've done a lot of, I've done a lot of, you know, little spots on, you know, the expert for X, Y, and Z. And like I say, I'm going to shoot a pilot now. If that pilot, you know, takes off, I'll be a recurring character on that show. But, you know, the TV's really hard because, you know, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

[38:36] And, um, uh, you know, the kind of what I'm interested in is fairly niche, you know,

[38:43] so like we have a fair, you know, we have a, the people that read the blog or listen to the show, you know, I really, I really, um, like them because, you know, they, they are dedicated to this kind of weird stuff

[38:56] that, uh, I'm in general interested in, but it's hard to sell on a, on a TV. It's hard to sell on TV because, um, it's, I don't think it's mass, mass market enough. I mean, hopefully that that'll change. But that's always been the problem is trying to figure out something that, um, they could sell as kind of a mass market, um, show that is something that I'm still interested in. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's like a nerd question, actually, opinion. Do you think that modern gastronomy will ever make it to like the Chili's or the Friday's level where these dishes that were, you know, that have been done so much that nobody doesn't anymore,

[39:32] but, you know, they could do it over there without anybody scoffing. You think it'll ever reach there just for like the novelty

[39:39] aspect, which modern cooks try to avoid? Right. Well, okay. I mean, there's there's a couple of things. I think that there, um, there's definitely, um, in those, in those realms. There's a search for novelty, but it's very, very kind of rained in. It has to be extremely friendly, but novel. So, you know, they'll spend like a bazillion dollars to come up with a new flavor that's a tiny bit outside of the box, but

[40:07] it's so friendly that someone will still order it. So some of the some of the more challenging stuff that's being done in modern cuisine is not going to trickle down anytime soon. Um, you know, there's certain exceptions, like, you know, garnishes or techniques, but the core techniques that are being used

[40:24] in, uh, in new technologies, a lot of them come from, um, kind of a similar wellspring of ideas

[40:33] that that those guys use. So, you know, I mean, one of the major, one of the major things that Faran really did was say, let me look at industrial

[40:43] food manufacturing and see what it has to teach us about cooking. So, you know, and I feel that some of these techniques that are being used to make food

[40:55] better that were just industrial techniques before are going to be used in places that are more mass market to make food better eventually. And I think, you know, one of the key things is low low temperature cooking. If, you know, when I go to the shows where I see the equipment that's being sold to restaurants and food service change now, over the past couple of years, there's been a big

[41:16] ground swell movement to move towards better temperature control.

[41:20] And what that means is people are going to care more and more about not overcooking their products or keeping them in top conditions.

[41:26] And to me, that's one of the core things about kind of this new mode of cooking. And like one of the core values is, is that. And so I think that is definitely moving into what's going on. Now, are you ever going to see liquid nitrogen at Applebee's? I don't know. I don't think so. Do you know what I mean? Uh, unless it became kind of cost-effective where they could get. I mean, I could see someone like, you know, I could see Chuck E. Cheese making liquid nitrogen ice cream as part of

[41:52] the, as part of the, you know, the pizza party thing for kids with the video games. I could see that because it's cool. Um, but, you know, I don't know whether any of the actual dishes are going to make

[42:03] it. But I think that there is going to be a trickle down to some of these techniques because, um, they just have legs. You know, some of some of them don't, some of some of them do, you know? Right on, yeah. All right, well, thanks for calling in. No problem. All right. And, uh, before we run out of time, I should answer the question that

[42:22] Myrick had, because it's an interesting one, even though we've, uh, spoken a little bit about something similar before. Nastasia, you still there? All right. So Monaco writes in, she says, perhaps my cooking issue is not very high tech, but of course, we like all cooking issues, right, Nastasia? Yeah. Yeah. But since she loves our show more than any other show, which we really appreciate. I hope you could share some nuggets of wisdom on the subject of pit roasting a pig. Uh, she's, she's doing that. She's pit roasting a pig. We have here, this is her talking. We have a hole and a £100 Berkshire hog and a ton of banana leaves. We have pretty basic instructions, but absolutely no experience with pit roasting. I'm willing to go to any lengths to get excellent results, any special tips, tools, or references. Okay. Okay, I like the fact that you said we were willing to go through any lengths to get excellent results. I appreciate that. Here is your main problem, is that you have a single £100 pig and it's very hard to get it right the 1st time around. If you're gonna, if you're gonna pit roast a pig, the basic, the basic procedures are you build a fire, uh, and you use rocks, you heat rocks with, with a wood fire, uh, I guess you can

[43:31] use circle, but wood fire. And those rocks retain the heat that is then going to cook the animal over a long period of time after you bury it over with

[43:39] dirt, right? The other basic principle is that you're going to wrap the pig in banana leaves in your case, which is going to do

[43:48] 2 things, which is going to keep the moisture in. Well, it's going to keep the moisture in. It's also going to stop the dirt from getting all over the pig. The key things, one, you want to make sure that your stones aren't going to explode. So, but what I would do is I would find you want to find stones that don't have a lot of contained water in them that don't have a lot of fissures that could break

[44:10] apart. And then what I would do is build a fire outside and throw a bunch of rocks into it, right? And see whether step away, step away from the rocks. And then if they explode, they explode. You know, I've had rocks, you know, I've done a lot of work with heating

[44:26] rocks, and indeed they explode, and when a rock explodes, it's no joke. You know what I mean? It's like sprays everywhere, little shards of rock and stuff. I totally freaked out the pastry. you know, one of the pastry chefs in a kitchen at the school because I was heating rocks over a burner. So I would preheat the rocks, check it, dig a pit. Um, then you're going to need to heat the rocks for um, for several hours. I would also, if you were willing to go through any lengths, I would definitely fire up the oven once, get something that

[44:59] is, like, has a similar weight to the pig, you know, that is cheaper than a pig, uh, and then uh, attempt to roast it all the way through in

[45:08] the in the earth as a test for your system, right? So what you're going to need to do is build up a big enough layer of rock, such that it retains heat for long enough to cook the pig all the way through, right?

[45:19] Even though it's not going to be so hot that it's going to overcook or ruin the pig at any one point. So I would get some long, if you can, I would get some long thermocouples, which aren't that expensive. You can get them for like $15, $20 apiece on Amazon, really long ones. And then a thermocouple thermometer and embed them into the ground in several points along your proposed oven, bury it like you were

[45:42] going to make the thing after it's been fired up. And then take measurement to the temperatures over time. And you're going to want it to, it can stay up fairly high. It's never going to go really above boiling point because you're going to, it's going to

[45:56] braise basically because it's covered in, it's, you're not going to evaporate the moisture because it's wrapped up in the, in

[46:01] the banana leaves. So I would, uh, I would measure it and make sure that it, you know, it stays up in kind of that braising range for several hours and then maintains a temperature above the

[46:13] cook point of the pork, which is going to be in roughly 60 Celsius or 140 Fahrenheit for a good, uh, depending on,

[46:22] I can't picture how big around a £100 pig is, but not that much. I think like a good, like 6 hours or something like that, if it stays around, hovers around there, but isn't too high for that range. I think you're going to be good. I read a very good idea that somebody had. Um, and I will get you the website because it's a, seems to be a fairly decent reference on how to build this. It's a recipe cottage. Oh, recipecottage.com, forward slash, uh, forward slash, uh, forward

[46:53] slash whole roast pig. Um, you know, you search for that, but it has a good idea that you wrap the pig after you do the banana

[47:01] leaves. You wrap the pig in chicken wire so that you can easily pick it up without the pig totally falling apart.

[47:08] I think that's a kind of a genius, a genius idea. The other thing you're going to want to do is take care of the meat. One of the problems with cooking whole animals is that no one portion of

[47:19] the of the meat is the same, right? So some cuts want to be cooked by braising over a long period of time to break down the collagen. Those ones are the ones that are going to taste best using this kind of a technique because they have enough collagen in them that when they're cooked, they're going to stay unctuous, even though the meat has technically gone well above the temperature that you would want to cook it, if you were just cooking it, let's

[47:42] say, as a steak or medium rare. But the other muscles, like the loin, the things that don't have a lot of exercise or a lot of

[47:49] movement. These ones, even if they stay juicy because you wrap them and they have enough in trained moisture in it,

[47:54] from the thing, they're going to be not prime texture because those muscles aren't meant to be cooked that long. And this is the problem, I think. I don't think it's possible to cook a whole animal, such that unless you go through crazy lengths, like I did with the turkey that, you know, I made

[48:13] an artificial aluminum skeleton for and pumped, you know, molten, you know, hot butter through it. I mean, like, you know, unless you go through bonkers, things, it's very hard to get a whole animal to come together at the same time. So, um, one thing I would do is, is if you can salt out or get some salt or something in the areas that don't have as much

[48:32] connected tissue beforehand, that is going to protect them a little bit by having them keep more moisture by basically making the muscles be able to hold onto the water a little bit

[48:41] better. So I would definitely do that. I would I wish you could run some tests. It's all about running tests first, since I've never cooked one underground. I've done spit roast whole pigs. And the idea there is to basically stretch out the animals that all meats get done at the same amount in the same amount of time. So you're also going to have a problem with your pig that if you have places in the thigh in the leg, especially where the leg meets the body, it's going to be very thick there. And so that's going to take the longest to cook and you'll be ruining the rest of the meat while that's happening.

[49:10] That's why a lot of recipes will tell you to score out the meat. Um, so you can get down close to the bone in those areas, but then you have the problem of you're going to leach a lot of juices out during that procedure, even if you wrap it

[49:20] in banana leaves. So, I mean, I don't know whether if I was going to do it myself. I might stretch it out so it's long and then wrap it, although that goes against what I think most people would tell you to do. But I'm going to try to do a little more research. Um, maybe post something if you post something to eater to the eater thing. Hopefully I'll have some time to do some more research later this week and I can have some more definitive answers for you,

[49:44] Marika. But thanks for writing in. And I think I'm, I think I might have to either do this from LA next

[49:51] week or I might have, hope I don't have to skip a week, right, Jack? That would be terrible. That would be awful. Nastasia, thanks for joining us from sunny Rhode Island. Hey, Nastash. I heard that you found a skate on the beach and instead of eating it, you threw it back in the water. What's up with that? The seagull had already attacked it. Well, which is it? Which is it? The seagull attacked and it was going to die anyway, in which case you should have eaten it or what? I threw it back in. Don't you like skate? No. Is that the same thing as a singer? No, do you skate? Skate's delicious. You don't like skate? Maybe it was a stingray then, because it looked like a stingray. They don't have, no, skates look like stingrays, but they're not like a stingray. I mean, they look like mini stingrays. How am I going to bring it in, Dave? How am I gonna bring it in? It was on the beach, you said. Yeah, but with my bare hand. Yeah. Anyway, skate's delicious. You know, another one of those things that for years and years and years was a trash fish, they would throw it

[50:51] away because no one realized how delicious it was. Delicious, delicious fish. Anyway, this has been cooking issues. Please come back next week.

[51:06] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes

[51:26] Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted And I guess can't get it straight. Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you dirty rap. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Keeper. In the wake of the massive E. coli outbreak in Germany, which was finally traced to organic sprouts, the editors of

[52:13] Food Safety News published an editorial suggesting that all sprouts should come with a warning label.

[52:19] The CDC, or Center for Disease Control, is echoing that sentiment saying sprouts are not healthy food for everyone. Children, the elderly and persons who immune, whose immune systems are not functioning well, should not eat raw sprouts, because current treatment of seeds and sprouts cannot get rid of all the bacteria present.

[52:37] Persons who are at high risk for complications from foodborne illness should probably not eat raw sprouts. According to an article in the current issue of emerging infectious diseases, CDC's

[52:48] Peer Review Journal, which tracks new and reemerging infectious diseases worldwide. Although sprouts are often considered a health food, the warm, humid conditions needed for growing sprouts from seeds are also ideal for bacteria to flourish. Salmonella, E. coli, and other bacteria can grow to high levels without affecting the appearance of the sprouts.

[53:08] Researchers have treated both seeds and sprouts with heat or washed them in solutions of chlorine. Yum, alcohol, and other chemicals. Some of these disinfectants reduced the levels of bacteria, but a potential hazard remained, especially for persons with weak immune

[53:23] systems that would be the elderly children, pregnant women, etc. High temperatures that would kill the bacteria on the seeds would also keep them from sprouting. So until an effective way is found to prevent illness from sprouts. They really should be eaten with caution, if at all. And by the way, it's national sprout month. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. Check out a small clip from the food scene hosted by Michael Harlan Turkel, a show where food and art intersect. I think most recently you had a chocolate waterfall that had 5 tons of chocolate flowing, and you'd put on, what, a protective suit, walk through a waterfall, make your own chocolates within this kind of contained environment.

[54:05] And most recently, a rabbit cafe. Yep. Can you explain that one to me a little bit? Well, and this also slightly comes from jellies as well, because in England, everyone has these rabbit jelly molds. It's the most popular mall then because, oh, I had rabbit jetties for a kid. We've always been utterly bewildered by it. Why why rabbit jellies? The only way to get to the bottom of it was to get a whole herd of rabbits, open a cafe with them and have people touch rabbits and

[54:33] these. Yeah. So it kind of has resonance with one of one of our favorite cookbooks, which we think an awful lot of, you know, modern chefs

[54:42] have, is their dark secret under their pillow, which the future is. want to hear more? Well, tune into the food scene live every week, Tuesdays at 3 p.m. Or you can find all the archive shows on our website or subscribe to the podcast in iTunes. Thanks for listening. The following is a message from Zingermans. From June 30th to July 3rd, 2011. Come hang out at Camp Bacon, a 4 day festival hosted by Zingermans. The main event is an all day affair at Zingerman's Roadhouse, featuring plenty of bacon, bacon learning, and such luminaries as Alan Benton, John T. Edge, Molly

[55:23] Stevens, and more. The event will be taking place in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Proceeds from this event benefit Southern Foodways Alliance. Also on Friday, July 1st, he'll be of special benefit performance featuring Andre Williams and the gold stars and special guest John Langford and Skull Orchard.

[55:41] Visit www.zingermanscampbacon.com for more information and for tickets. Once again, that's www.zingermanscampbacon.com. The following is a public service announcement from Just Food. Help bring live chickens into food challenge communities through your donations to the Just Food

[56:05] City Chicken Project 2011. The City Chicken Project would not be possible without the volunteer hours, donations large and small, and the vibrant energy and ideas of the communities we work

[56:15] with. Just food is a nonprofit organization that connects New York City communities and local and urban farmers with the resources and support they need to make

[56:23] fresh, locally grown food accessible to all. To donate, search on Kickstarter.com for just food and find their city chicken project.

[56:31] For more information on just food, visit justfood.org or call 212-645-9880. That's 212-645-9880. Let's keep making New York City a better place to live and eat.