[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com.

[0:20] Fish. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, calling all of your questions,

[0:33] cooking or non-cooking, tech, or non-tech related to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Currently joining the studio as normal with Nastasia, the hammer Lopez, the hammer of cooking issues. Hi Nastasia. In a couple of minutes, we're going to be joined by superstar Chris Young, who's coming live from the main stage last yesterday at Star Chefs, this being the Starship

[0:57] edition of cooking issues. So he did his main stage demonstration at the International Chef's Congress yesterday, and he'll be here in a couple minutes. He's on the BQE right now, caught in Brooklyn traffic. He is not from Brooklyn, so I think he doesn't realize how awful it can be getting around Brooklyn sometimes when you need to get somewhere, right,

[1:13] Nastasia? Right. Anyway. So, uh, make sure, uh, you know, Chris Young, uh, one of the authors of the Mega Cookbook Modernist

[1:21] Cuisine uh, will be here and he will answer any of your modernist cuisine or a glider.

[1:27] Did you know that he's a glider pilot? Yeah, yeah. He's like an avid glider pilot, like, you know, catching thermals and all

[1:34] that? Not like, you know, little paper airplane gliders, like the ones that he flies in. So he's now the glider pilot. So if you have any questions about gliding or about anything else, really, I guess. Uh, call in your questions, 2718-497-2128, but think about it for a couple

[1:49] minutes, because it's going to take him a couple minutes, probably to get here, but make sure you call in because that's going to be fun. Okay, so what happened since last week? We had our fundraiser, right? Yeah. Yeah, so the museum of Food and Drink had a fundraiser at Ma Pesh Restaurant, which was, I think, an unqualified success in terms, I think the people really had a good time.

[2:07] Yes, they did. Yeah, they had a really good time. Mario Batali. Mario Batali comes to the event and is was bidding like a lunatic in the auction. I mean, 1st of all, I don't know whether if, I don't know whether you know this out there, but one of my skills is to go completely off my

[2:27] rocker bonkers lunatic during an auction situation. Would you agree that's one of my skills? a great auctioneer. Or at least crazy. Like, if you want, if what you want for your auctioneer is crazy, then I think, in fact, in our next event, now, see what you think about

[2:42] this. In our next event, I think I'm going to have as one of the auction items, I'll do an auction for you. Ooh, that's good to, yeah. You like that? Like I'll do like a charity auction for whatever your charity is. Yeah, right? Because I'm sure, you know, most people get like higher ticket items. They're like auctioning off like a country or something like that. I could definitely get that money up there in terms of how much that country is going to sell for as long as they give me the data on the country beforehand. I need the data. I need to get jazzed up. I can get jazzed up about pretty much anything so long as I have the data. Okay, today's show, again, is being, I don't mean that in a negative way. I'm just saying they must like us, which we appreciate. Today's show is brought to you again by the modernist pantry. I will read the, I will read the promo word for word. Today's show is sponsored by the modern pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most cost only around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocoloids, pH modifiers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping, modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues that order $25 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free bottle of

[4:12] PeckTanX Ultra SPL, the miracle enzyme. Simply use the promo code CI 56 when placing your order online at wwwmodernistpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. How was that? Good. Jack, was that strong? It's pretty good. Good? Stronger than some of your previous reads. Oh, geez. Of this one or of different ones? different sponsors. Yeah, you know, I'm never going to hear the end of it. Like, listen, if you're going to sponsor this show, right? And you're going to make a piece of equipment that I've never used before, right? I'm just saying, it's hard for me to get enthused. I can't make a claim for a piece of equipment that I've never used. It's like not in my nature. It's just, I can't do it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't mind chilling out and selling stuff that, you know, that I know I agree

[4:59] with that. I know they make a good product, right? So, like, you know, I don't know, polyscience. I like their circulator, so I don't mind shilling for them. you know what I'm saying? But if I've never used your stuff before, how am I going to sell it? Jack, you're still mad at me about that? Sorry, no, I'm not bad. All right, all right. Okay. I am impressed that you've memorized 7 of the 10 digits in the phone number. Oh, yeah. By the way, guys, I still don't have the phone number for this show. Memorized. I've had listeners who haven't memorized. I don't have it memorized, but I'm getting very very close. I'm just missing the middle 3 digits and then we're going to be good. Okay. Uh, uh, who said this question, by the way, Nastasia, I don't have the name on the Ikigime. You'll find it. So I have a question in, uh, from about Ikigime. Ikjime, by the way, is the fish killing technique that we

[5:42] use, that we studied, Japanese style, and there's different levels of Ikjime. Ikigime really just means fish killing, but we use, in particular, a technique called Shinkenuki, which means destroy the

[5:52] spine. And the idea being that by destroying the spine of the fish, uh, you, you, you basically, what happens is, is that the spine keeps sending messages to the muscles even after you've killed the brain. And so, uh, those messages that are getting sent to the muscles, reduce the amount of ATP that's

[6:09] available that's in the muscles because the muscles are using the ATP. The faster you use that up, the faster you go into rigor, the faster you go into rigor,

[6:17] typically the harder you go into rigor mortis. And fish muscle is so strong that, you know, the strength of the contraction is strong enough to actually damage the

[6:24] muscle. So when it comes out of rigor, if it goes into rigor very hard and very fast, gets damaged, gets mushy. So if you're going to serve a piece of fish, certain fish and you do this thing with spinal cord ablation, shinkanuki, you can get a firmer textured fish. So that's what we're talking about. And here's the question. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Ikujime and how much it would, could really improve the flavor and texture of fish caught on a rod and reel.

[6:49] I'm going to the Gulf Coast next week and hope to catch king mackerel, redfish, bluefish, and maybe some flounder and speckled trout. By the time a fish has landed, I will have been struggling against the line for maybe as long as 10 minutes or as few as 30 seconds. Big fish will be gaffed, then hauled up onto the fishing pier. At that point, the custom in the area is to whack it over the head and dispatch it, then throw it in the cooler. My question is, to what extent can Ikajime improve the outcome? The fish will be stressed regardless of how it's subsequently treated. My plan would be to bring the fish to the pier, then either knife the brain or simply cut through the backbone blood vessels behind the head, then cut the tail, destroy the spinal column, and then bleed in ice water. An alternative would be to fillet immediately. If the cooler is too big for a whole fish, fingers crossed, because he wants a big fish. Are there any downsides to cutting the fish into large chunks and destroying the spinal column in

[7:39] each, then bleeding in ice water? Any procedural suggestions would be appreciated. Okay. This is an excellent, excellent question. His name is Andy. Hey, Andy, this is an excellent question, Andy, because one of the things I've always wondered on

[7:53] Ikejime is the effect of post-catch stress on an animal. And now, obviously you want the animal to be as little stressed, as rested, as is humanly possible. And that's not necessarily possible when you line catch something. I've had only one experience with a line caught boat, Ikiji made, uh, game fish in our waters, and that's in striped bass. So I did a shoot with Dave Chang for his iPad application. I don't know if it's out yet or not. I don't know. anyway. And one of the production assistants there, fish is off of Montauk regularly, went out on a boat and got line caught stripers and did Ikigime with the spinal cord ablation on one, and then basically, you know, whack over the head,

[8:41] gil cut, throw in a cooler with the other. And there was a definite difference in taste, the Ikejime one being better, having a better texture. So that's only an N of one. So it's very hard to know whether or not in all cases. I mean, in other words, anytime you get the fish and you do the Ikigime, you're increasing the quality as much as possible. Would you like there to be less stress as the thing is being caught, sure. But I think it's definitely getting, uh, you're definitely going to get some help, at least in the very small amount of experience I've had with line caught

[9:13] fish. Ikejime. There was a, there was a difference. Um, and, you know, obviously the ones that are struggling, 30 seconds are going to be the best. Also, you know, I would guess that the bigger, stronger fish, the stronger fish is, the kind of the more of effect you're going to get. Now, listen, I really need you when you go to, this is what I want you to do. Please, Andy, if you can do this for me, I want you to catch 2 bluefish. mean, I know you can't control it. But I want you to catch 2 bluefish. And I want you to do Ikigime on one, and I want you to not do Ikigime on the other one. And I want you to tell me whether there is a difference on bluefish

[9:53] specifically. The reason I'm interested in bluefish is bluefish is one whose texture and flavor can go off relatively quickly after it comes out of, you know, after it's killed. And I want to know whether EKA Jimmy can help with it because it's also a fish that really isn't eaten. I don't think in Japan. And so it could be really an American kind of test on this. Plus I love bluefish. Some people don't like bluefish. I love bluefish and I've never been able to get Ikigi made bluefish. So please, please test that. Now, instead of whacking over the head. After you gaff the fish and bring it over, I would immediately I would spike its brain. Um, and the reason is, is, is that stops it from flopping around and it's very easy to hit as opposed to trying to do a

[10:33] gill cut, right? You could hit it over the head and then do the gill cut, but I think you're better off spiking the brain. That, like, kills it like this and takes away the stress and then you have an easier time getting to the spinal cord. Now, cut the spinal cord and a tail. I'm trying to learn how to go through the head of the fish to get the spinal cord, so you don't necessarily need to do the cut before you do the spinal cord ablation, but I'm not quite there

[10:54] yet, because that's how they do it on tuna. Uh, but so I would, I would put it through the head first, then uh, do the 2 cuts, put it through the spinal cord. And when you get it through the spinal cord. You've never done it before. You can see the fish. It'll do like a shimmy as the needle goes down. So you know exactly how far the needle has gone down and through the fish. So you know where you are. Now, I would, um, if the cooler is not big enough, I think you're going to have some problems. Here's why you don't want to cut open the fish. Cut it into pieces first. You want the blood pumping, basically. You want the heart to help pump out the blood to really, really, really clean it out. So, if you can, please don't chop it into pieces before you get it into the cooler.

[11:36] Maybe actually if you can get down to the water. You can just bleed it in the water where the fish is. I don't know how high up the pier is or whether you can get to the water. Another suggestion. Gut it right there after you do the Ikigime, gut it. Uh, as you after you open it up, bring a stiff brush with you, uh, and then go

[11:54] under, uh, take your, um, take your knife and go and cut along the membrane that's on the underside of the spine to expose and cut open the blood vessels that are running underneath the spinal column and scrub that underwater with a brush to get all of that goopy stuff out because that goes uh, off as

[12:11] well. I would pull the gills out immediately and then take it and ice it and put it in the thing. I think that's going to be like uber maximum quality. What do you think does? That's good. He also wanted to know one another thing. Oh, yeah, I haven't read a second. Oh no, but there's one more after that. One more after the other one I'm about to read? All right. Okay. So Andy also has a question on canning and pasteurization. It's a two-part question. He says, most canning recipes call for the seal jars to be processed for 10 minutes in boiling or simmering water, supposedly to kill any nasties and ensure a safe

[12:43] product, and the low temperature charts on the blog, cookingissues.com, which I realize are dedicated towards meat and poultry. I say that anything over 74 degrees Celsius is instantly safe. Do I need to process in the water bath for 10 minutes to achieve sterility or is a 10 minute cook more for textual reason? Um, And then B, I did not use enough pickling liquor in a couple of jars, and subsequently not all of the pickled green beans are fully covered with a liquid. Is that a major problem? Okay. A couple of things going on here. So if you're going to okay. We're talking about pasteurization versus sterility, okay? Um, When you're processing something in, 1st of all, if you're

[13:26] going to can an item, if you want to achieve sterility, right? You have to, you can't just boil in in simmering water, you have to uh, sterilize that thing, which means you have to pressure cook it using, uh, you know,

[13:40] recognized canning procedures. And those canning procedures are based on, uh, I think what's in

[13:46] the, what's in the can or what's in the jar and how big the jar

[13:50] is, because you have to guarantee a certain temperature for a certain length of time at the center of your jar in order to kill any spores that are in there.

[14:00] So there are certain bacteria, and the one they're really worried about in canning is botulism,

[14:06] which basically forms spores and can't be boiled out with normal boiling, you have to go well over the boiling temperature and actually sterilize,

[14:15] okay? Now, the reason you can do canning at lower temperatures without a pressure cooker in certain situations is because you have enough acidity present in your product to or

[14:28] salt or combination of salt and acidity, to ensure that no botulism is going to grow in there. And if that's the case, you just need to kill off some of the easier to kill bacteria that aren't spore

[14:39] forming, and all the spore forming bacteria don't grow because of the very high salt

[14:44] content or very high acid content or both. So, um, when you are boiling something or simmering it for 10 minutes at, you're just ensuring you're getting to that high,

[14:56] uh, uh, temperature, that's not really a sterilization procedure. So the question is really, what are you trying to guard against? You could, you could cook for a longer period of time at a lower temperature and kill everything that's in there from a vegetative standpoint and therefore get a different

[15:15] texture, right? But only if your product is inherently safe from a

[15:22] spore standpoint. So I make this very, very, very, very, very clear. If you are going to sterilize, if you want to sterilize something and make a shelf stable product, you can leave on an unrefrigerated shelf for an infinite length of time, you have to either can it using a pressure

[15:40] canner using recognized procedures for pressure canning, or you have to ensure that you have enough salt or acidity in that can to ensure that no spores, no spore forming bacteria are

[15:52] going to grow after you do your initial kill step. Spore. Spore. So, and if you, if, if you have that, you can cook at a lower temperature for longer and basically effectively pasteurize the

[16:06] product but not sterilize it. On the 2nd part of the question where you're worried about there not being enough cooking liquor in the, you know, pickling liquid in it, that could conceivably be a

[16:16] problem if it doesn't diffuse in fast enough. You could get possibly some growth of product in the portion of the thing that's uncovered. It's very hard to say without knowing it first. But be very careful when you're canning, uh, to ensure that you're not going to grow botulism. Let's take our first commercial break.

[16:53] Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. I feel you can't be him. But I don't care what they say. The thing I've got, I'm coming from a brand new place. I'm stealing squeak, and I don't miss the lake, and I better don't leave no trace. Hey, take it out. Take it out Take out this new list. What about my new trip? And believe me, the capital is stealing hard. The cats don't sleep, steal it hard. Some cats with a bad for the biggest part. Check me out. That's where the buses start. Taking place, so keep ours right, when you got no life, and the birds can't take no case. That's me, just, you gotta be, just, just. gotta be by the hip

[18:15] Welcome back. Are we on? Welcome back to Cooking Issues. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Chris Young is still on his way, still caught on the BQE,

[18:34] which for those of you who don't know our fine neighborhoods over here sucks. Right, Jack? It does does suck. Especially Flushing, have sucks. And that's kind of where it's close to where that's close to where we are. Probably where he's getting off, yeah. Yeah, you know, Roberta is, like I tell you why Roberta is designed, basically solely for hipsters. And the only train really that services this place is the L, which is the hipster line. You know? We were, like, they threatened to shut down the L, didn't they, Nastasia, for, like, for like a week or something like that. Every weekend it's shut down. So what are the hipsters going to do? There's a there's a website that we can plug called is the Ltrain fucked.com. Wow, busted out the everything. What are you gonna say, Dave? F-bomb. F-bop, what? I mean, Jack already told him about it. They can go to it. And the answer is pretty much, yes. Yes. Well, here's the real question. Do you need to get somewhere? Then the L train won't take you. If you don't need to get there in a big hurry? The L train will be fine. I think that's pretty much, pretty much out of the LT. You could take the J. Yes, you can take the J if you enjoy a 20 minute walk. Okay. Hello? Another, a different Andrew writes, oh, by the way, Andy emailed us while I was talking about

[19:46] that. how long do you want to age the bluefish and or mackerel when you catch it? I don't know. It's really something you have to kind of test. I would, after you get it home, I would take and cut them into 2 filets. I would taste some right away, uh, and then I would uh, like keep it a day and then test it there. I doubt it's going to take longer than a day to be good. I mean, most people who eat bluefish, they want you to eat it right right away. I mean, like if you if you ever grew up fishing on Cape Cod or, you know, you grew up on near Cape Cod in the summers and people fish for you, which is what happened to me.

[20:17] They would give you bluefish and because it was considered a trash fish, you know, when I was growing up. And they would tell you to eat it right away, and strangely, it's known as a very oily fish, and they would tell you, they would always grill it always. 100% of the time it would be grilled. I've never had it cooked any other way on the cape. And they would tell you to put mayonnaise on the fish. And here, I think I've mentioned this on the show before, but they say, oh, they don't talk like this because they're from Cape Cod. Oil gets out oil. That's how it works. You put the mayonnaise on a fish because oil gets out oil. It doesn't make any damn sense to me at all. Makes no damn sense, but that's, I'm just telling you, that's what they used to say. I know, you know, mackerel, another oily fish you don't think of is aging necessarily, but some of the most interesting best mackerel I've ever had was

[20:55] Saba sushi, which was basically mackerel that had been aged overnight wrapped in kombu.

[21:00] Like he fought like the chef. Sasaki sign, formed, you know, basically a roll with a vinegared rice and the mackerel wrapped it in kombu and aged it overnight, which was delicious.

[21:09] So I think it's just you have to see, I used to have to test it. You're going to test it and you're going to tell us how long to age it. Rice stars? Yeah, she's not listening. We're doing a radio show. asked me to do something, didn't you? No, I just asked you to that was that was like a half hour ago. condense this question. Oh, yes, she is condensing a question. She is doing work for the radio show people, so I apologize. Okay. Andrew, different Andy writes in. I have a few questions I've stored up rather than emailing you one little question each week. Hope that's okay. So firstly, I was wondering about the mechanics of cartouches and whether there's really a reason to use one over just putting a lid on. Now, what we're talking about here, a cartouche is not in cooking parlance. It's not like an Egyptology term. And cooking parlance, a cartouche, is a piece of parchment paper that you cut into a circle,

[22:01] and then you cut a little circle in the middle so that it just fits into a

[22:04] pot. Uh, and usually you're going to use that in, when you're braising something, you'll put that in and, uh, and or if you're cooking, um, certain times you're cooking vegetables, you'll do that. You put a little bit of water, you know, and sugar and whatnot, you know, butter, whatever, in your vegetables and you'll

[22:21] put like a cartouche over it and cook it. Now, the theory of them is that it allows a certain amount of moisture to leave through the central hole in

[22:31] the in the paper, right? Kind of like a parachute, lets some of the steam out. So you get a slow reduction, right? Without it getting a, like it's not super fast. It's kind of a controlled reduction. And also, it keeps basically 100% humidity environment over the portions of the paper that are covered.

[22:51] So you're not going to get on a braised item, for instance, you're not going to get a lot of drying out of the meat that is not directly centered over the whole,

[23:00] right? That makes sense. So, uh, is there a big difference between that and just putting a lid on, I don't know. You know, I've never I' never really done the test. I can tell you how many times at home, I've made, uh, made the cartouche roughly zero. You know what I mean? Like on the order of 0 is how many, I mean, that's not true. I used to do it sometimes for the heck of it. I just don't know that there's going to be that much benefit over keeping the lid on. I'd have to run a side by side test and see whether it really controls the uh, evaporation rate any better, or whether or not it actually prevents

[23:37] uh, kind of some surface drying of the meat. Maybe this is something when Chris makes it here from the BQE, we can ask him about, yeah? I'll put that on the list of things to talk to him about cartouche, because I'm sure that they've studied that because they did a bunch of in-depth studies of classic cooking

[23:53] techniques. And, you know, they like to debunk the classic cooking techniques. So we can actually get him going

[23:57] on comfit as well. Get his motor going on confit. Okay. My other question is about the method you talked about some shows ago with using gelatin and meat glue to make noodles. By the way, this is a Wiley Dufrene trick. One of the great properties of gelatin, as I'm sure you know, is its fantastic flavor release, is this still the case in this application? Also, is there any benefit in using this method over other thermo irreversible gels for making noodles, I guess. Now, that's an interesting question. I've had the noodles and the noodles are delicious. Also, they fry really well better than any other kind of hydrocoloid noodle I've had. As for the flavor release, I mean, it seemed to me that they had a good flavor

[24:37] release because it's just my recollection. Okay, gelatin, anytime you use a gel. You care about whether or not that gel has a good flavor release. So, for instance, Algernate gel doesn't break up in your mouth very well. doesn't leak out a lot of fluid. Uh, so is basically the worst for flavor release. It's a flavor thief. It's, uh, you know, it's kind of, it's Alginets are the enemy of flavor, which is why you either want a very thin or very

[25:10] soft alginate shell, uh, or, you know, a lot of something very, very flavorful. Otherwise, you're going to get a lot of the flavor sapped out. And that's the problem a lot of times with things like alternate. Things like gelan have very good flavor release because they leak a lot of moisture. They break very easily in the mouth, and they, uh, and they're used at very low concentration. So they tend to mask flavorless. Gelatin is kind of the gold star standard for flavor release for a number of reasons. It breaks very easily in the mouth. Liquid comes out. And also it melts at body temperature. So when you eat it, gelatin literally melts in your mouth and turns back to a liquid. Flavor release doesn't get much better than that, right? So in this scenario, where basically what we're doing is we're taking translutaminates, meat glue, stirring it in with a gelatin. The Miko is cross-linking the gelatin so that the gelatin will no longer melt, not only at body temperature, but it won't melt even at deep frying temperatures. So one of the things that gives gelatin, it's great flavor release, the fact that it melts in your mouth, is not going to happen. However, it still breaks up very nicely in your mouth, almost like a pasta. So is it going to have as good a flavor release as straight gelatin? I would bet not But it, you know, it is going to have a better, it does have a good flavor

[26:30] release, and that's just from kind of, you know, me, me knowing that from eating it.

[26:34] May name. Yeah? Yeah, okay. Okay, the finally, although it's not really finally, because he has the 4th question. By the way, when you guys write in and you say, finally, make it the final question. Ask as many as you like, but make the final one, the last one. All right. Just kidding. I'm just kidding, Andrew. I don't really care. Okay. In your post on Enzymatic Peeling, you use a combination of 2 enzymes. I used Pectinex Ultra SPL, which is the one that they're selling on Monter's Pantry, and Pectinex

[27:01] Smash XXL, which was the 1st one of the enzymes really that I was using for breaking down Pectin.

[27:08] Uh, and when I wrote the uh, and post on peeling things with uh, enzymes. I used both. Have you found that Pectinex Smash XXL is not really necessary? In other words, can you do it just with PecnX ultra SPL? Yes. You can. So I no longer bother sourcing Pectinex, Smash, XxL. I find that if you just add a little bit more of the Pectonex ultra SPL, that it works fine. The reason I initially used both was the people at Novazymes, the enzyme person at Novazymes, said that the one that was most

[27:44] optimal, they used to make an enzyme called Peelzyme, whose only job it was, was to break down the kind of membrane around citrus

[27:51] fruits, and also the albedo, the white part in a citrus fruit, right?

[27:55] That's all that thing was built for, peelzyme. They stopped making Peel's eye. Chris Young is coming. I see him coming around. They stopped making peels on. And so what the enzyme specialist at Nova Zyme said was, why don't you use a mixture of Smash XXL and Ultra SPL. But then later, it's just slightly more effective. So I just use a little more of the one enzyme than you would

[28:21] of the 2 combined and it works fine. We use about 4 grams per liter, ultra SPL, in

[28:26] our solutions to do our peeling. So that's going to work fine. All right. We are joined in the studio, by none other, than Chris Young, author of Modernist Cuisine. Friend of friend of mine, friend of the cooking issues, and uh, are one of our West Coast buddies. What's going on, Chris?

[28:49] Not too much. very frustrated with your traffic here in New York. Yes, not used to it. Not used to it. I like that. Because, you know, in Seattle, everything's nice. The traffic's nice. Me, me, me, me, me. Yeah, that's, I think why I'm going to go right back. I like the west coast. All right. one question for you before I forget. We had someone write in. I don't know if you address this in modernist cuisine. By the way, call in all of your questions to Chris at 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. So someone was saying, you know, cartouches, you know, where you cut the paper and then you cut the little hole in the center of the paper and you put it in the pot so that it kind of gently boils

[29:25] down. Any point in that as opposed to a lid? Not really one that I could possibly think of. All you're going to do is slow down the evaporation, keep it closer to the boiling point,

[29:37] but no, I don't really see any benefit to it over a lid. Yeah, me neither. Well, that's the thing. So the question is, is, are you going to prevent any local, so if you have a very tall pot, right? And I'm just talking right out of my behind here. But if you have a very tall pot and you have, let's say, wow, that was my iPad, folks. And you have like a, uh, like an ocebuco or something like that. Uh, and so your liquid's not covering the thing. Do you think it's going to get any drier because of the because of the steam basically hitting that one section that's not covered?

[30:09] Is it really not going to make a difference? You can have like a local deficit of humidity there. I mean, I don't know. That's the only thing. in the oven. I can see there being a bit of an argument for using one in a brazen in oven. On a stovetop. I don't see any benefit over a lid. I think that's highly suspect that it's going to make a significant difference there. But in an oven, you are going to slow down evaporation. You're going to raise the wet bulb temperature and you're going to get an effective higher braising temperature than if you left it

[30:36] uncovered. Oh, sure. By the way, this is something that, you know, as long as Chris is here. Let's debunk this sucker right now. You are not creating any pressure in a pot by putting

[30:50] a lid on. Uh, even a minute overpressure in your pot is many pounds of force on a large lid.

[31:02] You are not, not increasing the pressure to the extent that you're increasing the temperature on the inside of that pot.

[31:09] What you are doing by preventing evaporation is getting your temperature actually up to the boil throughout rather than, uh, rather than allowing it

[31:19] to, uh, be, basically be evaporate cooler. So, an experiment you should run at home is take an oven with 2 pyrex dishes. Same pyrex dish. Set your oven to 350. Cover one pyrex dish with aluminum foil, tightly, and then, you know, jam a lid into it so that, you know, you're not getting much evaporation off of it, and then leave the other one open.

[31:39] The one that's covered will boil, the one that is not covered won't. Agree? Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Uh, okay. So, Chris, how was your main stage, how was your, how do you feel about it? This is your 2nd time on the main stage of Star Chef, by the way, right? Yes, this was my 2nd time. This was a bit interesting. I think we attempted to do a little more cooking this time and a little less dog and pony show, which went pretty

[32:06] well except for the fact that we were cut short by about 15 minutes. Yeah. You know, when you're doing a show that you set up from kind of far away, you have X amount to

[32:15] do, and you know you're going to do a lot. You don't want to get. I mean, 15 minutes is a big deal. No, I had to cut a lot out and we had to compress a lot of a lot of steps. So luckily my colleague, Kyle was able to keep up with me as I drop stuff, but it was entertaining. came complete with its own explosions. Oh, yeah. Well, so I didn't realize what happened. Apparently, what happened? Okay, so we might as well get into this. So one of the things, look, Modernist cuisine cost 500 bucks, right? And I get this knock, and I don't have nearly the kind of crap that you guys had. So I'm sure you get this knock even more than I have. This is stuff. You need a lot of equipment, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Youve heard this bullshit many times. I've certainly heard people assume that you need 1000s of dollars worth of toys to do this stuff. By the way, not the case. Not only is it not the case, is that in my opinion, is that if even if you don't have access to the toys, seeing what other people can do with the

[33:09] toys helps you understand food in general, even if you're only cooking with a stick over a fire.

[33:13] That's just the way I feel about it. But, uh, So, one of the demos that Chris uh, did yesterday at Star

[33:20] Chefs was to do um, low temperature reductions without having to buy a

[33:26] RotoVap. So basically your ability to do low temperature reductions in a restaurant situation for under 500 bucks relatively effectively, yes? Yes, that was the point is how do you how do you get on eBay, a little Google Foo, and put together your own evaporative reduction

[33:41] system, or vacuum reduction system. Right. So it's not, it's not a distillation system because you can't recover. Uh, actually, you know what? Then it's totally legal, though, even to do porting it because you can't recover. That's right. You're not recovering any of the vapors. So it's not a replacement for a Rotov app, but it is fun to point out and just needle you a little, saying, you don't actually need a Rotov app to do what 80% of people do with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although, you know, I am the other section where I am almost always using the illegal distillate, but in

[34:11] restaurants, you can't because, you know, you can't, you know, endanger your liquor license. That's the main problem. So what Chris did was he set up an aspirator pump. You had a nice one though. That one's not a cheap one. Well, we bought that one used, though. So I think if you were to buy that one new, yes, it would probably be about $1000 new. There's no reason for it to cost that much. I saw them used on eBay for around 500, but I didn't get into this yesterday, but you don't even need that. You can even buy the aspirating nozzles that screw on a faucet and just use the Venturi effect to basically give you a vacuum. And that's what 1000s of chemistry labs around the country do. Right, but then your boiling temperature is only going to get down to whatever. I mean, look, here's the way an aspirator works. is you're, you shoot liquid past uh, um, an orifice at high velocity. It carries basically the air with it and sucks a vacuum. You're limited in the vacuum that you can suck by basically by whatever the vapor pressure of water happens to be at the temperature that the water is.

[35:13] So the most effective way to do this is to use ice water. And so recirculating aspirator pumps are the way to go if you want to get the lowest

[35:23] stuff. And if you don't believe in throwing water away, like absurd amounts of waterway. Because you're talking like gallons, gallons and gallons and gallons. Now, I'm not going to tell you to go on the internet, search for do-it-yourself meth labs, and see how those guys use a flowjet pump hooked up with PVC tubes to aspirators to build your own recirculating

[35:47] aspirator, because I wouldn't advocate that you go up and look up, do it

[35:51] yourself, meth labs. But if you wanted to, you could go there and for about, uh, with at Home Depot, you can get a good pump that'll do this for like, you know, 80 bucks, 90 bucks, and then you just go buy a series, you have to buy 2 or 3 aspirators, put them in, uh,

[36:10] in, um, parallel to get a higher rate of pump down and you can do this, although I'm not advocating it. But you can do it. I'm advocating the pump, not the, not the meth. Yeah, I think that's what's coming across here, David, though I'm not entirely sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know what? Like, until they get so tweaked out that they blow themselves up in their own lab. Like, you start with like a people who are smart enough to do Orgo, basically, right? And, you know, kind of ambitious enough to build their own setups. And, uh, so, you know, they have some good ideas. And then they, you know, I think what I'm hearing here is you're not, you're advocating buying some stuff at Home Depot, not some phenol alanine solution. Bingo. Okay. Yeah, yes. Yeah, okay. So, uh, anyway, look, we learn from everyone. Learn from meth labs if they're there to help you. But what I was really interested in. with this setup. So basically it's just an Erlin Meyer flask with a side arm, a plug in it, and a stirring hot plate. Although, you know, you could get away with, look, you don't want to ignite it. So you can get away with, you could get away with, I guess you need it to stir, huh? Yeah, you want to avoid the bumping, that sort of the, aside from stirring and getting yourself a nice vortex for greater surface area, you will get it jumping all over the place if you were just to put it in a pot on a hot stove.

[37:29] Right. I mean, my only problem with the, with those stirring hot plates is that, um, A, they're not cheap. You have to get them used. You have to get them used, but there was a, I, I, literally before my presentation yesterday, Googled eBay just to double check, and there was a huge number of them for around

[37:47] $100. And they're dirt simple, so there's not much that can break about them. Right. But just so you guys who haven't used one out there. They are great. Not going to deny that. Um, you know, and they, and this man egg bars are like 2 bucks

[38:02] from McMastercar.com or Cole Palmer or whatever. like 2 bucks. They nothing. The one problem I have with them is that their heat rate is

[38:11] very, very slow. So they will, once they're stable, they're good and ready to rock, but just know that when you turn one on, don't expect it to get up to

[38:20] temperature instantly. And they don't dump a lot of watts quickly into your,

[38:25] but it's not a problem. Actually, that's good for you. That's good. They're designed for a chemistry lab where stability of your temperature and accuracy is a lot more important than responsiveness.

[38:34] So it can be frustrating when you turn it on and it takes 30 minutes to get to stable temperature, but once it's there, who cares? Right. That it. But that's my point. My point is, is that is that it's going to take a cook a while. to get used to the response. Is it really all that different than a French top? mean, a French top. You turn it on in the morning, you leave it on all day, it doesn't change temperature massively. If you're used to that, you just leave this thing on all day and know that it's hot and don't touch it. That's a very good point. Another point I've always said is that I wish more cooks in the U.S. were used to French tops because... I did my cooking and over in the with the euros. Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, the amazing thing about them is that I think it's really interesting to, because on a

[39:17] French top, you don't you don't adjust temperature by adjusting knobs, you cook

[39:22] spatially. So you know uh, kind of what, you know, you know what temperature your pot's going to be based on where it is in space on the top, which I think is really great. I think it's really interesting way to cook, but again, not something that I think most US cooks are used to. No, and I think we'll probably end up skipping that and going to induction. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I always wonder, is like, is there a problem doing an induction magster?

[39:46] Is it a problem or can it be done? I would think it could be done. It might be a little bit of cleverness because you would need to, you'd

[39:54] have, you'd be trying to couple a magnetic field of the pot at the same time. Uh, basically rotate that field to get your your, uh, stir spending. So I imagine it could be done, but it wouldn't be trivial. Yeah. So anyway, so what Chris is talking about about the explosions yesterday was that he took the thing off of the heater to show that it was still going to

[40:13] boil, even though it wasn't being currently heated. It's because we were lowering the pressure or he was lowering the pressure in the Erlenmeyer using the aspirator. And set it down, eventually what happens is the aspirator starts getting the pressure down and the product starts cooling and it's no longer

[40:31] boiling. Sucked enough of a vacuum to inhale the cap that was on the flask, into the

[40:36] Erlin Meyer flask, and then ejected liquid out of the

[40:40] Erlin Meyer into the air. Uh, it's kind of cool. I thought it was nice. Yeah, that was rather spectacular. It gave me pause. Yeah, it was a good 10 seconds going, what the hell just happened there? Yeah, well, you know, and this is a, oh, this is another big point. A couple things about this. One, I'm not going to insult the Gastrovac on air except to say that it doesn't work and it's useless. So, uh, the only way you can make Gastrovac is, by the way, is a machine that you buy that has a very bad vacuum pump on

[41:07] it that then, should I be saying this? Do you agree with me on this? It's a bad vacuum pump. It's useless. Yeah, it's useless. If you own a chamber vacuum machine, there's no reason to own a gas vac. True or false? I don't think there's a reason to own a gastrovac full stop. Right. But if the Gastrovac guys had, instead of putting that vacuum pump on it, put an ice, an

[41:29] ice aspirating pump, now I think you have a good thing. So the point of a gastrovac is you're supposed to be able to do, as Steingarten told us yesterday, Jeffrey Steingarten, was to do things like jellies at lower temperatures so that things don't

[41:43] caramelize, and to do like Wiley was very, very interested in vacuum frying for a long time so that you could get all the moisture.

[41:50] Well, and you can fry things that are very sweet that would burn at normal frying temperatures. Bingo. They do this in the tropics and Thailand and stuff, they'll do deep fried pineapple chips. Sure. Or apple chips, another big one that you do that you want to totally dehydrate them in a frying situation, but not at a lower temperature. But this isn't the way most people view their gastro vaccum. I think why we're both saying this isn't a compelling technology. Right, because, and here's the kicker, the gastrovac won't work for either of those 2 applications, because anyone that knows anything about vacuums and distillations will tell you, in order to boil something off, you need to either recondense it or your vacuum pump needs to be able to handle the

[42:31] vapor, and it can't, but Chris's aspirator pump, on the other hand, could do

[42:36] that, because it can take as much water in as it wants. It doesn't matter. That is one of the beauties of it is you can foul it up with the worst vapors and it does not care. That's why we use them in chemlabs. Right. So. Well, I'm not giving up my roto vap anytime soon. I think this would be a good solution to do kind of lower temperature

[42:54] jellies, if you want to reduce citrus juices, or anything that has a real delicate aroma flavor that would change with any high temperature

[43:02] boiling. This is the way to go So I'm going to give it a qualified thumbs up. Listen, why don't we go to one more commercial break and we'll come back for another segment with Chris Young.

[43:17] Hey! Scott, it's got to pay back. Revenge.

[43:30] A man. Got to get back. I need some gift back. Hey back. Hey, back. That did. Pay back! Again! I'm man! Get down with my girlfriend. That ain't right. Whoa, Morgan. Holocast. fight Hey, man, you got to see. Yeah. Never do any damn thing to me.

[44:26] Sold me up. Chicken chain. Yes, you did. Told me you did. They had all the rain. Hand it down. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call your questions in too, Nastasia. What's the number? 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. All righty. Oh, by the way, before we go any further, Adam Lazarrick wrote a question before, and apparently there was a typo. He wants everyone out there in internet land to know that he does not recommend cooking a, was a short rib, I think, at 130 for 8 hours. He knows that that's not long enough. So he doesn't want anyone to have that 130 F for 8 hours attached to his name in any

[45:14] way or to the Lacroix restaurant where he works in Philly and we hope to get out to the next time we're in Philly. So for anyone out there listening, he knows better. I saw him on Star Chefs actually yesterday. Nice guy. Okay. And one more little note. If I can get back to it, is in fact, I'll get back to the note. I'll have it be my ending. Andrew wrote in and agrees with you about candies, but I'll read his. I'll read his notes on candies as we go. Oh, I also mentioned before you got here that you were a glider pilot. I am. Yeah. That is the other hobby. Yeah. So, well, gliding and cooking. That's, you know, what else do you need? So, uh, I want to talk about some of the stuff you're working with. I mean, look, everybody who's tuned into our show knows modernist cuisine. I feel like, you know, I like, if you don't know, I would be shocked if there's even one person who can hear my voice right now that doesn't already know about

[46:08] modern cuisine because... Did our publicist pay you to say this? No, I mean, I'm just saying, I still, you know, I can't, I can't picture it. Look, if you don't know it, if you are the one person who was suddenly born and got interested in

[46:21] technical cooking and this is the 1st thing you've ever heard about it, go Google Modernist cuisine. Okay. But let's talk about some of the stuff you're working on after the book. Sure. One of the things I was interested, you were telling me you were working on a project on milk in

[46:37] Africa. You want talk about that? Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So we did the cookbook at Nathan's day job, which is running a company called Intellectual Ventures, which simply

[46:48] put, it's an invention company. And so the cookbook project was just one of many odd projects going

[46:53] on, we had anti-malarial projects involving laser shooting mosquitoes

[46:57] down that was going on right in front of the kitchen. I've seen the laser. cool. Yeah. So, I got asked at the end of the book project, since I'm kind of a technical food

[47:07] guy. If I would help out on another project that was going on the lab, which was, um, basically improving, uh, the milk situation in sub-Saharan Africa, particularly Kenya and Uganda. This is a Gates Foundation sponsored project. And we take it for granted here in this country that we can get milk from the farm, it can be shipped, it can be pasteurized,

[47:28] and it can be kept cold, shipped around, and distributed, and we get this very fresh milk supply. But in fact, that's a very recent technology. Even in this country, it's less than about 60 years old that we've reliably done that. And before that, we did all sorts of crazy wacky stuff, like putting formaldehyde in milk to try to eke out a little bit more shelf life because we didn't have a reliable cold chain.

[47:46] Delicious formaldehyde. Yeah, real tasty stuff. So Africa turns out shipping things and keeping them cold really difficult. Reliable coal chain, non-existent. And so by some estimates, 50% of the milk. that these small hole dairy farmers produce spoils before it can be sold. Incidentally, it turns out that 50% they would need to increase their amount of milk sold by about doubling it to basically break the poverty trap. And most milk produced in

[48:14] sub-Saharan Africa is by small hold dairy farmers who have 2, maybe 3 cows. Um, and they're not able to sell their milk before it spoils. And then even then, they don't capture a lot of the value. The dairy traders do who. I mean, theoretically all of the milk in Kenya is supposed to be pasteurized. In reality, 80% of the milk is purchased and sold and consumed raw. And actually, that's not strictly true because people don't drink raw

[48:43] milk, they would all be dropping like flies because it is basically diluted shit.

[48:47] I mean, the bacterial counts are fantastically, I mean, just mind-boggling numbers of over a 100000000

[48:55] con- informing units per milliliter. So everyone boils the bejesus out of their milk. And as a result of this, they turn out, it turns out they like the flavor of boiled

[49:03] milk where you and I might go, oh, that's a little kind of sweet tasting, not to, not to my liking. We used to fresh milk. Well, the insight that, um, I had was basically, why don't we, if they liked the flavor of boiled milk, why are we putting all this effort into cooling it down, why don't we basically collect the milk, bring it up to sous vide temperatures, uh, pasteurization

[49:25] temperatures, because that's very easy to do in Africa, and then hold it hot for many days at a

[49:29] time until it's sold? It's purchased hot, and then it can be used within several hours. So those you guys out there, listen, here's the thing, right? Boiling energy intensive, especially if taken from cold, right? So to cool down and then boil energy intensive. Heating it up to not as high a temperature, but keeping it

[49:47] there, not as energy intensive. Right. And it's actually even more than that because what happens today is they transport the milk, it's chilled down, then it's heated up

[49:55] again. Then it's chilled down again, and you have all these heating and cooling cycles, and then the problem is you've pasteurized it, now it has to be kept cold to be shipped around. And that's the real falling down. is it, forget even the total energy consumption. It's just not possible to ship it around cold, but if you have a very well insulated container, it's very easy to ship it around hot. And so now you don't have the temptation that the current traders have of, let me put formaldehyde in there. Let me put hydrogen peroxide in there to try to prevent my inventory from spoiling before I can sell it off. So how long can you hot hold? Um, we're actually working on finding out. I mean, you can hold indefinitely from a microbiological standpoint. Taste of from taste standpoint. That's going to be very subjective. To me, at 3 days, that's the upper limit. What about for the consumer there? Well, we're doing sensory studies right now to figure. It looks like at one in 2 days, almost everyone thinks the milk's fine. At 3 days, maybe 10% of people don't. It's going to fall off by some amount, and so probably the pricier milk commands falls off over a number of

[50:51] days too. So the flavor profile, even though they're going to boil it when they get it. Yes. is different if it's been held hot for longer than about 3 days. You're essentially running, even though it's a very wet system over that duration of time, you get some mired reaction. So you actually get some caramel color form or in some of those flavors. Um, you know, the milk, yes, you've destroyed some of the micronutrients, but in fact, in Africa, the macronutrients is all you give a shit about.

[51:18] Right. Now, one of the problems you were saying in this also is getting heat exchanges that don't foul up in the

[51:24] field because you want this to be as simple as possible for the farmers to implement. It has to be incredibly low tech. It has to cost less than $200 to be a viable product. And how close are you to hitting that number? We're very close. We're expecting to be doing pilot studies in January in Kenya. Right. And so, now, just so you guys know out there, because this is another thing I hate, is, you know, you know, Chris has been involved in high tech cooking for a long time, and they say, you know, the stuff that you think about never has any kind of impact, and it is true that, you know, tend to focus, and the book focuses on things that are aimed at a high-end consumer, let's say.

[52:01] But turning now the same, it's the same thought process. It's like here are the givens, here's what we're trying to achieve, right? Here's the problem. Here are the givens. What can we do with it? So it's the same kind of creative notion that can then be applied to this kind of a problem. And I think what's, you know, what's different about, uh, you know, what, at least my

[52:22] impression, what's one of the things that's different about what Chris is doing here, uh, with the Gates Foundation, right? And Nathan, I guess. Yeah, it's intellectual ventures and the Gates Foundation. Uh, is that starts from a science perspective, but more importantly, from a cook, what tastes good? How can we make this milk taste the way that these guys want the milk to taste? Not how do I want the milk to taste or not, like how do I just make it safe? How do I make milk, that these guys want to drink, that also is economically viable for them,

[52:51] and, and, and, and will also will also be safe. But the safety has to go with the, it tastes good to them. Yeah, it's very funny because in a lot of situations, people come in from the Western world and want to force a Western technology, a Western viewpoint onto them. But in fact, they don't like the flavor of our pasteurized milk, it's too bland to them, whereas we like that blandness. They don't like homogenized milk at all. too lean tasting. They want that rich, full fat taste you get of the raw, unhomogenized cream. And so everyone who's looked at this problem before is trying to say, well, here's how we do it in the

[53:22] Western world. Let us show you how it's done. And we took a slightly different attitude of saying, well, that's not what they like anyway. So why don't we just try to figure out how to give them what they like and we just have this problem of preventing to the milk to spoil? You could do it cold, but why not do it hot? So what percentage do you think now if milk in Kenya just is unsalable because it goes bad? We think about 50% of the milk is lost to spoilage. Right. I think you said that before, but I just want to say it again. 50%, right? So and how big a number is that? Oh, uh, it would be, um, 100s of 1000000s close to 10000000s of liters probably annually. Right. And so that's how many... That's over the broader subs here in Africa. And if you if you remember, so it's 50% of the milk is going bad right now and is

[54:05] unsalable, and that's about the number it would take, yield wise, double the current yield, i.e. not losing that 50% to get those farmers out of the poverty line.

[54:14] So you're talking, this gets them to that place where they're no longer at the poverty line. I mean, this is part of a much broader initiative that the Gates Foundation has funded called the East African

[54:23] dairy development. And the idea is that milk is a major product for people. It's a major source of nutrition. It's a source of actually drinkable water. And so we're hoping that this is one step in basically really solving some of the problems over there. Small differences may have a big impact. Alright, nice. I like that. So doing good work. Is that laser thing with the mosquitoes actually working or no? It is actually working. They were doing some testing of the kill laser last week, I believe. So this is basically, uh, like Ronald Reagan's anti-missile, Star Wars thing and it just shrunk by a couple orders of magnitude. Yep. quite literally. That's what it is, right? Yeah, the basic idea is that if you can, in a, say, around a village, reduce the mosquito population, by a significant

[55:10] amount. Don't totally eradicate it, but reduce it, you can have a profound impact on how quickly malaria is transmitted.

[55:15] So we decided to start shooting the lasers out of the sky with a laser. Yeah, it's crazy. I like that. It's crazy. It's Looney Tunes, but it does work. All right. So here's what's going to happen. I'm going to read a comment on candy about Nastasia, and Chris is going to comment on that. And while I'm doing this, I want him to think of something in cooking that he

[55:33] hates and we'll end with something that he hates in cooking, right? You're gonna think about that? I read this? I'm going to think about that. All right, Andrew writes in. And he says he's also like to say that Andrew is totally with Nastasia on red, orange, and yellow candy being crap candy flavors. Artificial cherry. This is Andrew's words, not mine, is a vile abomination and Sully's cherry's very name. I mean, come on. If you can't make a flavor that is remotely like a delicious fresh cherry, Don't use it at all. As for oranges and lemons, they're just boring. With fantastic flavors that flavor houses producing candy manufacturers, they have no excuse to keep using these crap flavors.

[56:07] Still, the worst candy flavor of all time is popcorn jelly beans. I can force myself to eat other distasteful flavors like artificial cherry, and in turn, increase my appreciation for the great flavors, but jelly belly popcorn goes straight in the trash. All right, any comments, pistasia? I agree. We have a caller, just later. Oh, really? All right. Chris is going to think about what he hates. and call her, you made it in just under the wire. Hi, my name is Jannani. And I have a question about hard boiling eggs, actually. I'm wondering if it's better to put the egg in when the water is so cold or to drop it in when it's hot. All right, listen, I'm going to have what I think, but I'm going to let Chris say what he thinks, and then we'll argue about. What do you think, Chris? Generally speaking, I like, so there's a pro and a conduit. I like putting it in cold because the egg doesn't tend to get the thermal shock and it doesn't tend to split on you. But it becomes a lot more difficult to time it just right because how long is it going to take that pot of water to get warm? And I've read studies that say it's harder to peel if you go from cold versus if you go in straight hot. But here's my thing. Are you timing your eggs very, very rigorously? No, I kind of just leave it and come back. Then go from cold. Then go from cold. Who cares? Yeah, I mean, look, these boiling water things, what they're doing is, is they are, they're getting a large, large pot of water boiling, and they're plunging enough eggs in there that the temperature never really drops appreciably below the

[57:30] boil. And therefore, therefore, assuming you use the same size eggs all the time, you can get a very accurate temperature. If all you're concerned with is getting a hard-boiled egg and not turning green on the outside, then of the yolk, then I would just bring it to just below the boil, leave it covered and let it go back to

[57:47] cold. It won't get, what do you think about this? I think that's fine, and I'm going to throw in one tip here. If you have a hard time peeling your hard-boiled eggs. Get yourself a blowtorch. If you hit the show with a blowtorch and then try to peel it, it's way easier. after it's pulled out, it's dry. After it's done cooking, after it's dry, you just go around basically hitting the surface of the blowtorch for an intense pulse of heat, not really enough to cook it, but that shell will come away much more easily.

[58:13] Really? Nice. Well thanks for the call. Great, thank you. So, Chris, to take us on out of this. Give me something you hate. I hate, I hate the label of molecular gastromy, and I hate the parlor tricks that tend to come with it. Oh, yeah. Give me some more. For about 10 years, I've been associated with this kind of cooking, and I will go into restaurants to see lots of foams, lots of gels, and done well. These can be wonderful. They can be exciting, and they should exist. But 1st and foremost, it has to be good cooking. And I'm getting tired of going into restaurants where people figure out who I am and all of a sudden the gels start come flying out. So I despise that. Stop. Nice. Nice. And have you ever met someone who calls themselves a molecular

[58:59] cook whose work you respect? Oh, going rough? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. Don't use molecular gastronomy. Thanks, Chris Young. This has been cooking issues.

[59:18] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. I don't know where I'm at. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archives programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage

[59:54] radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.

[1:00:09] The Heritage Meat Shop has just opened in the Essex Street Market, open from 9 to 7 Monday through Saturday, and 10 to 6 on Sundays, the Heritage Meat Shop supports independent family farms and animal welfare

[1:00:21] approved, and certified humane raising standards. Most importantly, they offer a wide variety of heritage breeds. So stop by, get a sandwich, try the charcuterie, the heritage meat shop at the Essex Street Market. The following is a message from Heritage Foods USA. 14 family farms in over 50 restaurants have committed to participation in no goat left behind, a new program developed by Heritage Foods USA, a meat distribution company dedicated to preserving endangered breeds.

[1:00:48] Without an end market, the majority of male dairy goats are sold into the commodity market or killed at birth. Dairy farmers are always struggling with feed prices, milk prices and weather. Goats usually have twins or triplets, and for every female who will become a milker, There is a male buckling who will become a financial drain. It makes no sense that these males are sold into the commodity market or put to death. When the United States imports almost 50% of its annual goat supply. Home consumers interested in participating can order goats through heritagefoodsusa.com. They will receive goats via FedEx and home delivery is available for New York City customers. In addition to the goat, these packages will also include recipes and a DVD featuring interviews with the farmers,

[1:01:28] processors, and chefs demonstrating how to break down and cook goat. Again, for more information on no goat left behind, visit www.heritagefoodsusa.com or call Aaron Fairbanks at 718-389-0985.