[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage

[0:07] Radio Network.com.

[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Aberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every

[0:31] Tuesday from approximately 12 to 1225. Today, Jack, we are coming exactly 12. 12 on the dot, which does not happen. Unfortunately, we are not joined in the studio today with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. She is taking my place at the Buke Trade Show in Florida, Orlando, Orlando, Orlando. Yeah. So she's uh, she's down there, uh, roto vapping um, scotch in uh, in a rotary evaporator, and then taking the leftover oak and uh, making ice cream with it, and I'm assuming taking the, uh, the, you know, the clear scotch, the, uh, we call it, you know, gray dog, the one that's

[1:10] been, uh, had the oak taken out of it in the roto app. she's just drinking that to drown her sorrows, right? I mean, she's not a hey, no offense to Florida. She's not an Orlando fan. Let me put it that way. She's not happy to be taking my place in Orlando. But eventually today in the audience, in the studio, rather. We going to have Tony Cagliaro. And since nobody can pronounce his name, which I think means rabbit keeper in Italian,

[1:34] uh, they just call him Tony C. But Tony C, it runs, you know, one of my absolute most

[1:41] favorite bars in the whole world, 69 Colebrook Row, in London, Fantastic Bar. He has, you know, a laboratory as well, where he does a lot of really high, you know, cutting edge work in cocktails and was one of the cocktail bars where I 1st experienced, you know, the fact that you could use very high-end, uh, very high-end stuff

[2:03] in a very comfortable, wonderful atmosphere. And so Tony should be here in a minute, but he is as many guests have been trapped somewhere in Brooklyn and does not know how to get to Roberta. It happens, man. It does. It does. He left, like, he was in Brooklyn, in Williamsburg, headed here, started like half hour ago, and it's not yet made it. Amazing. Anyway, calling all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128.

[2:34] It's kind of sad not having Nastasia here, right? Yeah, I can do my best. I can, you know make some faces and stuff. I know, but I can hardly see your face. Somebody needs to sit across from you with that table and make faces. Preferably someone like Nastasia, who has like a peculiar knack for getting me angry. Right. Yeah. All right. Anyway, while we're waiting for questions to come in, we have a question from, oh, this is last week's question that we didn't get

[2:58] to from Lee Cowman. And by the way, my kids ran my battery dry on my iPad. So I'm actually doing this this show via my iPhone, and in case you didn't know, I'm getting a little old, so it's hard for me to read these tiny, tiny letters.

[3:12] Anyway, hey guys, love the show. Got my hands on 3 fresh lamb hearts. Well, since this question's from last week, I doubt the lamb hearts are fresh anymore. You know what I mean, Jack? I trimmed the 1st one in the medallions and simply grilled it with salt and pepper. It was delicious. The 2nd I also trimmed the medallions and cooked it low temperature for 56 Celsius, at 56 Celsius,

[3:30] rather, for 3 hours, and also had, it was delicious, but it had a very similar texture to the 1st attempt. wondering how I might get it a bit more tender on the 3rd heart, perhaps another hour or 2 of cooking. Or since it's relatively lean cut, is there nothing really to break down, what would you do? Well, Lee, I love heart. I haven't done a lot of work with low temperature cooking on heart, but, you know, the way that you did it first, which is, you know, really grilled quickly with like a char on the

[3:56] outside, where it remains chewy on the inside, is, to me, my favorite on almost any kind of heart.

[4:02] you know, like chicken hearts. There's nothing quite like a grilled chicken heart. Like if I could grow chickens, it just had hearts and skin. I would do that. I mean, I love chicken meat, but chicken hearts and chicken skins are incredible. But I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. It's relatively not only is it relatively lean, but I believe, and I did some research into it. I believe most of the, you know, muscle, heart muscle isn't necessarily connective tissue, like it would be in something like a gizzard or something like that, which gets very soft with prolonged cooking.

[4:30] Heart is mainly just really strong muscle. And so I don't know that it's going to break down the same way

[4:38] as, you know, a cut with a lot of collagen and it would with prolonged cooking. I'm not saying it won't. I mean, you know, you could try a couple of days and see, because actually, it would work. If you cooked it for a long, long time at work, you know, because you can tell, even with very lean cuts, they get tender if they're cooked for a long time, but it's not really a pleasing tenderness, it's more of a mushiness. So I don't know if you're going to be able to get, um, I don't know if you're going to be able to get exactly what you're looking at

[5:05] with that, but I did find an article called uh, studies on development of tenderized chicken gizzard and goat

[5:13] heart pickles. This is in 2009. It's A.K. Mighty is the author. It an awesome name, Mighty. Anyway, they're studying traditional Indian heart and gizzard pickles. And they did something very smart. They slice it relatively thin. They jakarted the meat somewhat to get penetration, and then they brined it in a meat tenderizer. They were using a variety of natural tenderizers. For instance, ginger. Uh, apparently has some tenderizing agents and enzyme insid tenderizing. They're also using the late, not figs themselves, but the latex from a papaya, from fig plant, or tree, and a

[5:52] weird, bitter gourd extract that you can't get here in the

[5:57] US to try it out. And they had very good luck tenderizing it that way. So you could try, you could try that. And then I read some other articles online, although I haven't done it using baking soda, actually, as a tenderizer. Presumably the lie, the alkaline nature, breaks down the protein structure somewhat, and causes it to bind less strongly to each other and makes it more tender.

[6:19] Uh, but that uh, but now I want to try these pickled, these pickled goat harts. When you when you just chow down on a on a jar of pickled goat heart shack? I would, yeah. I mean, I'd never considered that before. Why don't you get Patrick to order us up some goat hearts? I mean, I have the procedure right here. I mean, it's it's pretty dang simple. They give you the whole thing. October was goat season for him, but I don't know if he's getting more. Yeah, but it's a goat heart season. Yeah right. If he pickled them, we should be able to have them, you know, all year, all year long. Also, another way to tenderize meat that you might not want to do is ionizing radiation at high sterilizing doses of high, high, high sterilizing

[7:00] radiating doses cause changes in meat proteins resulted in increased tenderness, and God knows what else. Actually, I shouldn't say that's stupid. But like, for many years, people were against the irradiation of fruits, vegetables and meats because they thought somehow the, the,

[7:16] the food was going to glow in the dark. And so there's a whole group of people that are anti-radiated foods. To me, the only real argument against irradiating foods is if

[7:25] the if the actual radiation source is unsafe to the workers, unsafe to the environment, which I don't know if they are or not,

[7:32] and B, does the crap taste good or not, you know? And, um, So that's how they did that glow in the dark sushi? No, no, no, that's like, I don't really know. I research that once for a very short amount of time. a bioluminescent protein. I mean, the one that like you see Ferran eating the popsicle and his tongue is glowing. Yeah, that's a bioluminescent protein. When you when you irradiate food, I mean, there's not. I mean, all the studies that I've read, and they're all old because they were trying to use basically the byproducts of all sorts of awful tests and things that they were

[8:00] doing. But, you know, basically there's no residual radiation left in the food, but one of the issues is, you'll get textural degradation of the

[8:08] food over time as it's irradiated. It's the same problem that some people have with very, very high pressure, high hydrostatic pressure,

[8:15] sterilization, things like oysters. They say that there's textural changes. And it usually means that you've broken the stuff down somewhat, so this can either be seen as a positive or a negative. I mean, one person's tenderness is another person's mushiness. Me personally, I like meat. I like to taste the muscle, the fiber structure. I like it to be tender, but I like the structure to be intact. When that structure starts getting broken down, such as something that is naturally kind of chewy, becomes tender. To me, to me, that's mush. If all you're doing is breaking down collagen and the collagen breaks down, but the muscle fibers are still intact, that's tender to me. Um, so to me, it's a it's a fine line. Anyway, we've got a caller. Oh, caller. You are on the air. I have a big fan of the show and what you guys are doing. I have a science question and a recipe question for you. Uh, science question is, uh, so my father is diabetic and tries to treat exclusive lute diet. Uh, says foregone dessert, but uh, was thinking of trying to do uh, meringues for him. And you've talked a lot about how the importance of sugar, not just as a sweetener, but as a structural component. And I was curious if you have thoughts on uh, meringues with uh, without sugar and just the sugar alcohols. I know Ruth for tall has gotten a lot of press, um, if you have thoughts on that dimension. Well, that's interesting. I haven't specifically done it. I mean, the one we always keep around is isomalt. And I'm trying to think if I've ever made a meringue with ice. I guarantee you a meringue with isomalt would work. It just won't be as sweet. Do you know what I mean? So you'd have to, um, uh, I don't have a lot of experience uh, doing one-to-one sugar replacements, i.e. trying to keep stuff sweet. Do you know what I'm saying? Um, I have much more experience trying to get the textural properties of sugar without the sweetness. So I'll use things like glucose, um, uh, syrups and uh, or if I want something harder that's going to have a lot more of a geling property. I use isomalt. So, which is the one you mentioned, I forget. Arithritol? And does it have similar sweetness properties to sugar? It does. It's a sugar alcohol that the body doesn't break down and it doesn't have a lot of the nasty gut properties that a lot of other sugar alcohols have. Yeah, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, sugar alcohols are generally undigestable, and so they add to what you would consider your bulk fiber content, so they can cause, what's a

[10:45] nice flatulence. And runniness, whatnot. Is that a polite way of putting it, you think? I think that was delicate, yes. Yeah. So, uh, so if it has similar sweetness properties, I mean, the great thing about isomalt, aside from the fact that it's not sweet, which is what I like, is that it's, uh, it doesn't pull a lot of moisture out of the air.

[11:05] And so it maintains its structure for a long time. Um, and I don't know. The properties of the other sugar alcohols, but it, I mean, look, I know isomalt

[11:15] works. So I'm sure the other sugar alcohol is assuming that they don't pull too much water out of the air and turn to a soupy

[11:20] mess would work as well. You know what I mean? Oh great. Okay, I'll start experimenting. Can you do me a favor and send us a note and tell us how it worked out for you. I certainly will. So a recipe question if you don't mind. So I'm among the legion throngs that have decided to hack together our own immersion circulators, and it's been really fun to play with. I had fun trying to do head-to-head recipe comparisons where you start with very similar base ingredients is to show off the effects to skeptical

[11:46] friends. Uh, chicken worked well, did a buttermilk marinated chicken and uh, either a high heat roast or a slow cook with a flash fry. And that was a lot of fun to sort of compare and contrast the different effects, how the marinade took,

[11:59] et cetera. I was curious if you have other suggestions of, uh, you know, recipes or ingredients where you can do, uh, a really nice comparison that scientific, you start with the same ingredients, uh, and show off the power

[12:13] of, uh, slow cooking. I mean, strictly speaking slow cook versus normal cook. Uh, slow cook versus normal cook or just the fun that you can do with low temp food? I mean, the cheapest and easiest thing to do, and it's not, I mean, it depends. impressive if you haven't done it before for someone. Obviously, it's eggs, you know, showing showing someone an egg at 63 versus 64. People are like, oh, I get it. That's pretty awesome. Um, Steaks are, are, are a good one to show kind of equal done, equal doneeness all the way through. Obviously, here's one that's interesting. It's not better or worse, but like a very, like a slow cook on a short rib. Some people prefer most, you know, like if you tell someone that it's, um, if you tell someone that it's the same thing as a

[13:01] braised short rib, then generally they like the braised short rib better. If you just tell them here's like a really cool cut of meat. In general, people really like the long cooked things like short ribs because they have an intense meaty flavor, and they cut they cut tender like a steak. So a short rib that's cooked for 24 hours at, let's say,

[13:16] 50 at like 57 to 60 C. have the texture of a skirt steak, which is pretty amazing for people. Do you know what I mean? Or cooked for 24 to 36 hours is going to have more of a tender steak texture. People kind of like that as a comparison. And it's interesting to compare that side by side with the traditional braise because they're totally different. Not better, not worse, different. Yeah, but give those a shot. All right. Thanks a lot. Keep it. Thank you. Tony C. Tony the rabbit man. Tony Cunigaro is in the studio. Hello. How you doing? I'm good. How are you? Had trouble getting here, huh? Yeah. Yeah. All right, so I described you a little bit to the audience as, I don't know what I said. I said, Fantastic Bartender, Drinks Factory Lab, 69

[14:07] Coldwood Grow. the name of the hotel bar again? Uh, Zesta townhouse. Yeah, yeah. Apparently also awesome. Bastard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, so anyway, so we actually had a question in, uh, for, you know, you and I to talk about cocktails. And then after that, I think we'll go to a commercial break and bang out some stuff. Hold on a second. Nastasia, who's not here today because she's in Florida. I tweeted it out yesterday, so we got any good question for you. Okay. Uh, this is from uh, Kevin, for us. Hope you and Dave are doing well. I've really been enjoying the last few shows. I just saw you have Tony C on today. So I had some cocktail questions to send your way. What are your thoughts on the binary interactions of taste combinations? I've read a few papers that essentially say that sodium in both sodium chloride and

[14:56] MSG, suppress bitterness, sugar, and acid, and wait, suppress bitterness, and sugar and acid cancel each other out, et cetera. Do you have any methodical approaches to adding small amounts of flavors to find the perfect balance or do you have a standard ratio you apply? How do you know how much salt to add to a cocktail? Huh. That's a perfect question for you, Tony. Yeah. Let me just... bounce that round my head for a few seconds. Um, I think at the end of the day you can read papers and you can you can look at lots of sheep. It's how it works in your mouth and you've got to keep trying and trying. I mean, when we're kind of making cocktails and we're kind of working on stuff. You know, we, it's almost like an artist has a blank canvas until you've kind of put something on that canvas, then you don't know what else is going to happen on there.

[15:46] So we kind of guesstimate sometimes off some of the, you know, kind of literature we

[15:53] read and then kind of work it up and down until we get the perfect formula. That kind of can involve like making a drink or, you know, a mix, um, you know, up to 30, 40 times until we've got that exact kind of resonance that we want in our mouths.

[16:10] and that we think will work once we give it to a larger audience.

[16:14] So I think a lot of these kind of papers just, they use them as vague guidelines. I don't think you can ever say that will work universally until you've actually kind of

[16:23] tried how it reacts with all the other ingredients. Right. I mean, I'm sure you have like a go-to starting point. For those of you that don't know, Tony, like if you walk into his, I don't know if they, he still does this, but if you walk in when they're actually doing testing, uh, they'll have uh, various, and Tony is uh, is, I mean, putting words in his

[16:41] mouth, right here, he can talk for himself, but uh, big proponent of um, sub-threshold, uh, you know, modifiers like salt and

[16:50] other other flavors like that that you wouldn't necessarily be able to pick out. In fact, he doesn't want you to pick them out, but they're there to kind of round and punch flavors up and down. And I remember one time I visited his bar. And they were working with, I forget what the particular ingredient was, but they were the eventual cocktail is going to have a fairly small amount. And so they were trying to figure out what their mix was going to be. Uh, you know, that was gonna, I guess, I don't know whether you work out of bitters bottles or what, but they were using a micro pipetter to basically make a bunch of iterations with very small differences in particular components that would

[17:22] then, and they're not going to pull out a micro pipetter at the bar, but it's to help them figure out what their base is going to be to work with when they're actually behind the bar.

[17:31] So is that something you still do? Yeah, I mean, I think that experiment there was something that ended up in the dry martini that we did, which was to make a dry martini

[17:41] dryer. And rather than it kind of being a flavor, it was an effect, which was using kind of condensed tannins that we got from grape seed.

[17:51] So we kind of macerated them and then rotivated them off. they were very, very concentrated. And you could have like, you know, 10 microns per

[18:00] liter of a move. Sorry. per litres of a move that would have an effect even when you put it in a drink. And we use micro pipettas for that. And, you know, we kind of started fairly high. I mean, we started around 50 and even adding 50 microns to a bottle of

[18:19] vermouth and then making a martini with it, dried, you know, pucking your mouth up so much that it didn't

[18:24] work. So we kind of, you know, again, it's trying and then seeing where these things would go. Because, you know, sometimes these papers are kind of, you know,

[18:33] uh, uh, it's pre-made chemicals and whatever else that you buy from laboratories. The difference with that, I suppose, kind of what we do, we're kind of a bit more fast and

[18:44] loose and as far as we're making these ingredients ourselves. So, you know, we can't test the amount of kind of tannins in something by ourselves. So the register is basically in our mouths, which I think it always should be anyway. I mean, that's the most important instrument. Yeah, it's the most accurate anyway. Yeah, and it's what we're mixing for. We're mixing for the mouth, not for the HPLC machine. Yeah exactly. Well, the mouth and the nose, I guess, and the eyes. But we're mixing for the human being. For the human being. Yeah. You don't recommend that one. What? Clever instrument that one. Exactly. yeah pretty good. Sometimes. Works sometimes. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I know at the bar, one thing we tend to add, I mean, look, obviously we have go to ratios of acids. We all have our own favorite basic sour ratio in our head that we can move up or down on depending on what the mood, you know, what mood strikes us or what the, you know, the additions we have to it

[19:38] are. And I also, I personally have a basic salt. You know, at the bar, we have a, our standard salt solution is 20 grams of salt in 100 milliliters of

[19:49] water, does all of it put it into standard kind of American, not, you know, not imperial drops, but a standard American

[19:56] eyedroppers. And, uh, and you know, uh, depending on the drink, uh, you know, most citrus drinks get

[20:03] a drop or two, depending on how much we want. Like, for me, a daiquiri is a one drop drink, usually, and most of our tequila drinks are 2 drop drinks, because people like a little bit more of an edge on their tequila drinks. So I mean, I think there's, you know, once you start incorporating something like salt into your, um, into the routine of bartending.

[20:25] Um, you're going to find kind of go to uh, go to ratios that you like. And then Tony takes it another step further because, you know, every time I've worked with him, he really enjoys

[20:37] fine tuning. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's definitely something we do just because it's, you know, being able to replicate these things over and over again, that I think is important because there's nothing worse, I suppose, than going to a cocktail bar and having, you know, the same drink that you really love, but it comes out in different variations each

[20:57] time. So we try and narrow that band down as much as possible by using some of the

[21:01] micro preparedas and equipment like that. just because it makes it, you know, super accurate and using kind of super accurate scales and things like that. Yeah, Tony, by the way, for those of you that haven't had a chance to go to 69 Cobra Grow,

[21:14] he's the master of busting all this equipment out behind the scenes, but when you show up at the bar, it's like, you know, a tranny band and a honky tonk piano.

[21:24] And so there's like, there is no, um, at least the, you know, 3 times or what that I've been to London and hung out, basically, exclusively a

[21:32] 6 night clobal grow. Uh, is, uh, you know, you you wouldn't, um, know from being there that you're dealing with someone who is taking such precise care of their drinks until you taste the cocktails, which are fantastic.

[21:50] And so it was one of the 1st places where I really, uh, saw in practice that you can have, uh, you know, a real palace of to the cocktail, but in a completely friendly atmosphere, which is, you know, something that hasn't really been replicated too

[22:07] often. I think that was, you know, it was always a consideration and always something that we wanted to do because I

[22:12] think, I mean, you kind of have the bartenders talking about, you know, the science of it. It can be pretty boring. You know, you know, the atmosphere needs to be conducive to, you know, I want to talk to you. Let's have a conversation. Or, you know, there's there's the distraction. You kind of go there to get distracted. You know, if there's, yeah, there's obviously people that want to know more and that's, you know, that's open as well. But our focus is to run a bar that is enjoyable and is fun and has, you know,

[22:39] it's about hosting. It's about bartending. It's not about kind of geeking out. I mean, a booker and Dax, which is, you know, the bar that, you know, I'm running now. Um, with Tristan. The, you know, I think we really fell into that trap early on, even though I knew I didn't want to fall into that trap.

[22:58] A lot of the tech, you know, the techniques were so new to the crew that they were just excited

[23:03] about it. I think there was a little, there was quite a bit, at the beginning, too much talk, maybe, to the customers, about

[23:10] it, and we really kind of, I think, trying to ratchet that back, because it's really just about the

[23:14] dream. But what you do as well is a lot fun. I mean, kind of watching you last night in the excellent bar that you went. was the, you know, it's fun to watch you kind of do, I think, because that's a point of interest. I think, you know, some of the things we do aren't that interesting. Like micropipetas aren't interesting to watch, but watching you, but watching you kind of carbonate stuff and, you know, use the liquid nitrogen and all of those things is a visual, exciting thing to actually, to watch. I think that brings a whole heap of stuff to, you know, to the table. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question. I just want to make sure, you know, you want to make sure that nothing that you're using is a gimmick and that it doesn't become, which I

[23:53] thought, I don't think we do. Like, so for instance, you know, with Booker and Dax, we're very low on garnish. You know what I mean? Kind of at this point specifically. It's not that I can't make a bunch of crazy garnishes. It's just, you know. Just talk of Pringles last night. Oh my god, that's great garnish. I hope that makes it in the bodega week. Our Pringle our Pringle garnish. And of course, you know, Brits don't know what a Pringle is, so we had to go through a long explanation of what a Pringle is to

[24:18] Tony Pringles. You know, Pringles are kind of a miracle. Pringles was like one of the biggest R&D development budgets on a food product of all time. And it took like 20 years to pay back. And Pringles finally started making money, like 20 years after they did it because of the amazing, like investment in potato chip molds that they made for the Pringles and the can development and all

[24:38] that. Crazy, crazy stuff. All right. So another cocktail question from Kevin. Let's take a quick break. Oh, quick break. Oh, all right. We're going to a quick miracle break. Call back, 718, 497, 2128. Cookie issues. Speak pimping, baby. Big, pepper, spinach.

[25:08] You know why, love them, love them, meet them, 'cause I don't need them. Take 'em on the hook. Keep them looking good, but I don't beat them. First time they fuss, I'm breathing. Talking about what's the reason? I'm a vivin every sense of the word. Better trust and believe them. And the cut where I keep them, till I need it, till I need to be the gust in

[25:31] it, beep, and I'm picking them up, gonna play with the truck. Beanie chicks wanna put, chicken, fish and cough. Divorce, I'm gonna split his bucks just because you got good. I'm a break brass so you can be living it up. Get up, pause with nothing, y'all be fronting me, give my mind to a woman. Not for nothing. Never happen. I'll be forever macking. I cold in a fashion. I got no passion. I got no patience and I hate waiting. choke in the desktop, ah, ah, ah, ah. Check them out now. Let's ride, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. Check her out now. Yeah, we doing. Big pimping. We be Costco sized pimping up in NYC, baby. I wonder what Jay-Z thinks of Dashi. I'm sure he doesn't want Dashi. Mantashi or Bushi. That was like the best song. we might have to play that thing again Love that stuff. Okay, today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantries. Supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of

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[27:08] glasses. Glasses. Uh, not that kind of glass, Tony. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of pure coat to play with. Simply use the promo code CI 76 when placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernestpantry.com today for all of your modernest cooking needs. I've never used, um, I've used crisp coat, but I've never used pure code. Crisp coat is like a batter coding. These things like these film formers, they use for things when you're frying. They form a film so that Greece theoretically can't penetrate and they also help with batter adhesion. And, you know, things like this you usually use in like, uh, so like in flour, you use like a 10% by weight to fry things. I haven't used it in a long time because my fry coating is good enough. I don't need any crisp coat or puke coating. I'm just kidding. I just kidding. It all good stuff. Especially if you're going to do something like, um, Oh, like

[28:03] tempura stuff, but this stuff sounds like it's not actually used for for that. It's used more to do to cast like glasses and fruits and sheets of starch. I'm sure it's great stuff. I just don't have that much experience with it. Okay. Second cocktail question is on Jelann ice cubes. Um, I'm trying to find out. Okay. I know that you've made gel on ice cubes before. I'm intrigued by the concept of a non-melting ice cube, especially if it could be better heat retention than a standard ice. Plus, it'd be cool to have an edible cocktail within a cocktail. My question is, have you had any success getting the jail end to stay clear when frozen? Maybe a different hydrocolid combination would work. No, it will not stay clear. It just won't stay clear. I have no try that, actually. Yeah, it won't stay. I've worked with Medicellulos before. Yeah, we made like absinthe ice cubes and put them on spoon and then lit them and then they

[28:51] melt melted. After they cool. Yeah, yeah. But and they clear when they're when they melt, but they're when they're solid, they're white. Yeah, especially with absinthe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Joe, here's the thing. When you use any sort of hydro for like to lock in water that's frozen for cooling, you're never going to get quite the

[29:13] cooling patent. you'll get theoretically the cooling power, but what happens is when you're chilling with ice, the outside layer of the ice melts, that water instantly goes into your

[29:22] cocktail, chills and dilutes. When you've locked the water into a hydrocolloid, uh, you haven't, uh, uh, believe it or not, water is a better insulator than ice. So you inhibit the chilling effect of the ice, it's on the inside of the cube as it goes. So it will keep a drink cool, but it's never going to be as effective as ice. Ice is a damn effective chilling agent. What I did do recently, because they're quite small. I have to go on Ellen, the Ellen have to. I'm going to be on Ellen DeGeneres. later this week for her St. Patty's Day cocktail, and they didn't want any of the drinks that we actually had on our menu, I don't think. I guess, I don't know, not a fan. I don't know. But they, uh, so there's all these uh, kind of, I'm doing a bunch of wacky stuff. So if you watch, it's not stuff that you'd actually see at the bar. But one of the things I'm doing is breaking apart raspberries with liquid nitrogen and then using the raspberry beads that, as basically, uh, ice cube BBs, to shake a drink,

[30:23] the chill a drink, it's already been diluted, and it shows it down, and then, you know, you get the raspberries, and you drink it with a straw, and you suck them up like, you know, in your mouth, it's

[30:30] like, Like that pretty much. So stuff like that. So you can shake with frozen fruit. one of my favorite techniques. Is that what with limes as well? I don't know. Probably. Little lime pips? Yeah. Grapefruit works. I haven't tried lime because the lime, the vesicles are so small. Uh, I mean, you know, one of my favorite, it's just not going to give you a cocktail within a cocktail, but one of my favorite things to do, especially at home, if you don't have a lot of gear is uh,

[30:54] is when you're using non- uh, non-concentrated mixers like grapefruit juice or apple juice. Freeze them solid, like ice cubes, and then shake them instead of with ice because they break into a slush because, you know, juice doesn't freeze as

[31:09] hard. So they break into a slush in the tins and then and it gets really freaking cold and your dilution's always right because you just shake it till the whole son of a bitch turns to a slush.

[31:18] You know what I mean? Numbing. Yep. Okay. So, let me see. Now I got to try and split between, just like Tony and I having a conversation and some of these

[31:30] questions because you guys have a lot of questions in. Let me go. Uh, let me see. Oh, here's a, here's a, here's a good one. Okay. Stephen Garrett from Wellington, New Zealand. You ever been to New Zealand? I've not yet. I love to go. Yeah? Because you're a Xena Warrior Princess fan? Lords of Rings, I think. Lord of the Rings. See, I'm, like, Lord of the Rings, like, I never really, I saw like one or 2 of them, but, you know,

[31:55] I, like, you know, Zena, like, hit me right at the right time. like, you know, Zena. There's a question that you missed last week about hearts and cooking. I'd love to hear a little about tartare of heart. You ever had heart tartare? I have never actually had it. But I'm sure it's good. I mean, one of the problems with Oregon meats is they have to be really fresh because the way that they're processed and cut out, they tend to spoil quickly because they're exposed to more bacteria than whole muscle cuts,

[32:16] right? I mean, that's just a kind of a fact of life. Hearts probably are okay because they are a big hole muscle cut. You just wash off the outside or whatever, trim it. I've never actually had heart tartare, but I did look up basically most of the recipes I found online. Trace back to a friend of mine, Chris Constantino, who is known for his cooking of, you know, awful, meaning awful, not

[32:37] awful, you know, awful. There you go. Uh, and he has a beef, heart, uh, tartare, Putanesca style. That means torn up hearts in the style of horrors. Right? Yeah, it's kind of that translation. Yeah, it's not far off. Yeah. Horse style, heart, heart chop. Anyway. kind of see where you're going with it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. So, yeah, he has a recipe. very easy to find and it looks interesting, but I've not had it. I sure it's good, kind of chewy. meat. Are you a meat tartare kind of a guy, Tony? Oh, I can be. Although I've not had that, but I've kind of partial to... Yeah, right? little acid, a little, you know, he has some interesting stuff. And so just look up, you know, look up his thing. Also, following up on the soda stream, the carbonate alcohol, soda stream. I't know if they have that UK, so to speak. It's the home carbonator. You know, I've recommended for a while adding an extra tube to it. So the tube can dip down low enough so that you can get it into alcohol and carbonate it without getting foam

[33:32] over, basically. So following up on the snowstream to carbonate alcohol, it works, extending the tube to the bottom of the bottle, but it uses a lot of gas. To make wine sparkle, we have to carbonate, vent, carbonate, vent, and carbonate and let it sit pressurized for a good few minutes, and it has to be almost ice cold.

[33:47] Everything you said is true. But that's the only damned way to carbonate something properly. is, uh, you know, if you come to the bar and you see as carbonate, We're, we'll carbonate 4 or 5, you know, between 3 and 5 times on any of our drinks, um, just to get rid of all of the little nucleation sites that are in it so that we get a nice stable

[34:06] bubble and we have it more than ice cold. In fact, one of the big things I have to beat out of the bartender's heads is to put our carbonated drinks on

[34:15] ice because ice is only at zero, and our carbonated drinks are at like -8. So, you know, when they when they're putting it when they're putting it on ice, they're warming it. You know, so it's like, like, don't do that. Do you add water to the mix precarbonated? with the alcohol because a lot of the I've tasted alcohol that's been made sparkling and the flavor is very, very odd.

[34:39] Yeah, so like I once did bottle strength carbonation. And if you're gonna carbonate something at bottle strength, it has to be absurdly cold, like

[34:50] -18 C, you know, otherwise the perception of alcohol is just crazy. If you get it down to a temperature where, like, let's say you're going to do, let's just use straight gin, right? If you're going to get it down to a temperature where it's like syrupy in the freezer, then and you carbonate it, it's quite enjoyable, but as it starts to warm up even a little bit. It's, to me, kind of unpleasant. And then if you add anything like a sugar or an acid to it for flavor, it just goes way out of balance. And I think the main problem that people do when

[35:22] they when they're carbonating liquor is they serve it too high proof. So, you know, if you're if you're um, serving, uh, you know, a stirred cocktail is

[35:34] going to be probably somewhere in the area of like 17, 18%, and a shaking cocktail. I have to go do the math again, but a shaking cocktail is going to be somewhere down closer to like 14, 15%. But like a carbonated cocktail should really be all the way down at like 12. You know, 12, yeah. I mean, if you look at the proportions of classic cocktails there about that. We used a, uh, if you've seen that machine, the alkalizer that measures all the kind of bricks balls, so the kind of ABV. So we were shaking. have one? We borrowed one. They're very expensive, but we borrowed one of her company. Anton Parr, alkalizer. Is it awesome? It really is awesome. Because you can check all the, uh, you know, the bricks percentages, but also the ABVs, uh, and we were talking to Harold about the, the, the, the perfect parameters of where flavor will hit and where you taste the

[36:24] best. And it was between, I think, between 14 and 19. So within those kind of, you know, parameters. You've got like a, you know, the most enhanced amount of

[36:39] flavor. a cocktail. When you carbonate, that punches stuff up, which is why you have to drop the I always drop the alcohol level in a carbonator drink. Yeah. But I mean, with the Tom Collins, you'd add slightly more sugar. That kind of floats the flavor a little bit more anyway. I mean, it's interesting problem, but most of the time, and I also remember when I 1st started carbonating, I would

[36:59] basically, I would just shake a drink and then carbonate it. And those are 2 alcoholic and end up tasting too syrupy, and they fatigue your palate quite quickly, whereas, and they just taste a little bit, like the acid balance goes off a little

[37:14] bit, and just add some, like lighten it a little bit with water, you know, not a boatload, but you lighten it a little bit with

[37:21] water, and the whole thing just becomes more pleasant. As long as you keep the bubble level at the same. Are you gassing with, um, with, uh, Come dogs are using other gases too. I have the ability to do a nitrous CO2 mix. And when I make water, I use nitrous CO2 because I want to soften the bubbles a little bit. I want to have the same liveliness, but I want to soften the bubbles and nitrous is going to soften it. adds a little bit of sweetness and some creaminess, but really it just softens up that

[37:53] bubble. Because I always find that the CI2 can actually make things more acidic. and it kind of registers as that. Yeah, it, I mean, you know, that, like the, the studies show that eventually it is your sour, uh, taste receptors that are responding to what an enzyme is doing to the

[38:15] CO2 or the way CO2 affects a particular enzyme pathway on your tongue. So it is related to acidity. And it does actually produce acid. I mean, you know, carbonic acid. You know what I mean? Um, but I think the what carbonating a drink does, um, is really complicated. You know, um, I find that, uh, if you taste a drink flat that you want carbonated, it should taste a little too

[38:43] weak and a little low in acid. And also, I like it a little low in sugar, because something that tastes balanced as a sipping drink, like, it just, it gets like syrupy and almost soda like for me. I don't want like a soda like flavor in my cocktail. You know what I mean? Especially people, because there were loads of Teslas. I think it was Bernard Lahous from food pairing, did loads of tests on the aroma on top of cocktails that had been carbonated, and the results were so, so varied in all over the place, just because, you know, what you're adding to, um, the, um, makes this a whole of a lot of Roma, because that CO2 is carrying and

[39:22] almost stripping the flavor into a Rome, and then taking it to the top of the drink. So you've got a whole kind

[39:31] of spectrum to look at, rather than just flavor. I mean, because if you take some Manhattan, there is some aroma, but there's not as much. So that kind of whole aroma spectrum kind of makes... That is a drill outside, isn't it? It's a jackhammer, I believe, yeah. Welcome to Roberta's. Well, we'll kind of change your perception of the drink as well, and that can very quite a lot. Yeah, and Manhattan is one that your entire perception has changed, and I think for the worst, I do test carbonated Manhattan. I don't know them at all. I think they're hideous. In fact, I use that as the demo of when carbonation goes bad. The other thing is, I think it's, you can make very excellent carbonated rum drinks, but I think it's also very easy to go wrong with

[40:16] carbonated rum drink. You know, they can taste, they go from being a delicious drink to almost fake tasting.

[40:23] There are great carbonated rum drinks. I've had other people's good carbonated rum drinks. I have made carbonated rum drinks that I also like, but it's like it's a difficult thing, I think, to do. You have to be spot on with your mix. I think to carbonate a rum drink properly. Jim carbonates like nobody's business. Like almost any gin drink can be made carbonated and it tastes delicious, or can be made to taste delicious. Um, But it's difficult. Like, it's difficult to do a carbonated tea beverage because the tannins get blown out. You know what I mean? Like they or amped up is what I mean. You know what I mean? And so it can be can be difficult. All right. Jack, should we go to one more commercial break? 784972128 cooking issues.

[41:15] But you heard about me.

[41:28] I am here to set you free. Don't let a stranger say his story. Bad is cheap and so alive. I got a place already for you. I spend between living and dying. Oh, my chicken, my chicken. But you got a gun of mine. You can leave your beer behind. Can't you tell I'm in your corner? Don't you know I'm good for you, you? We'd be too much together. There is nothing we can't do. No, no.

[42:35] Welcome back to cooking issues here with Tony Cunningaro. And is everyone in England pronounced your name wrong? Is that why you always go by Tony C? Yes. I'm I'm pronouncing it wrong, but I'm close enough, right? You are close enough. yeah I've had some horrendous versions. I mean, it's quite funny whenever the post comes in. I think we've collected about 400 different spellings so far of my name. Yeah, just at the bar, yeah. So what's your what's your favorite? what's your favorite mispronunciation There was one with W's and Zs in, which, you know, is... How the hell do you get that? have no idea. It's just one of those kind of mysterious. The one you must most get all the time is Canigliaro. Because that's like a baseball player that actually went by that here in the US. Yeah, for the Boston Red Sox. Yeah, yeah. And he was Canigliaro, not Cornoyaro. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, anyway, so he goes by Tony. Of course, you know, in England, you are dealing with a country where they, they, you know, they say spag ball when they're talking about, what is

[43:30] bag ball anyway, that's spaghetti bolognese? Yeah, spaghetti Bolognese. Yeah. Bolognese, yeah. Spag ball. Tony, by the way. Uh, true to his uh, Italian name is uh, what, you have Sicilian? Half Sicilian. Yeah, my father's from Sicily. You speak normal Italian or Sicilian or both? I speak normal Italian. Sicily it's like a complete different language that we didn't really learn. It's kind of only spoken by Sicilian Sicilians. Yeah. I mean, the odd word filters through, I think, but it's not as a whole, I don't know. Yeah. We're your family actually rabbit keepers back in the day. I have no idea, but I do know that that name comes from one village, and most kind of, you know, people that have that name. You know, have a line of heritage going back to a little village called Carini outside of

[44:18] Palenmo in Sicily. Never been to Sicily Sunday. Someday I'll get to go. And by the way, I'm going to go ahead and apologize in advance to anyone whose questions I do not get to

[44:28] today, because, you know, Tony's not here every day. In fact, he's never been here before. And so I didn't have a conversation with him somewhat, but if you have any questions for Tony, you still have a little bit of time to call any questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. All right. Quick one. Just a recommendation someone has in Tom Fisher from Lansdowne, PA, long time, listener. I'm looking to get a chamber vacuum sealer in the next month, and I've narrowed things down to the VACMaster VP 112 or the VP 215. I favor the VP 215 for the Faster Vacuum Times, oil-based pump

[45:02] in choir operation, but it is huge, heavy, and $300 more. Is there any benefit to the home cooking getting the more expensive unit? Well, look, both of these units are kind of in the sub $1000 chamber vacuum machine range. Um, I have had nothing but bad luck with um, any vacuum machine that doesn't have an oil-based pump. The vacuum pump is just not strong enough. Now, that said, is it going to seal a steak? Yeah, you know what I mean? It will. If you're out there to do, like, you know, some of the hardcore, uh, like flash infusions, um, you know, if you're looking to do that kind of work with it, Um, You need a damn good vacuum man. Yeah. Yeah. And so the one that advertised itself as an oil-based pump. I mean, but the problem with that unit, I looked it up, is that it's like just in the middle. I mean, you can get a real good one from MiniPack for like 1500 with a real bush vacuum pump in it. And this one's in the $800 range. I know the one I just recommended is twice the price, but I have this problem. I have a strange genetic disorder that once I get over a certain price. God damn it, I need the real one. You know what I mean? It's like, if it was like 200 bucks, then I would just go ahead and get the one that was almost as

[46:20] good. But as soon as it's like 800 bucks. I'm like, oh, hell, I need the real one. You know what I mean? You know what I mean, Tony, right? know exactly what you mean. Yeah, yeah. And so, um, but then, you know, so it says you do pay for, for, you know, the matter of fact machines we've got for over the years is phenomenal, and it was only until we discovered multivac, and we spent a bit of money on

[46:39] it that it's actually last, and we put it for its paces, and we, you know, we,

[46:43] we, we don't just use it for the, with the sous vide bags, we're sucking stuff out and blah, blah, blah. And some of the others just get clogged up and just bruised battered and destroyed because of that. But the multivac, you clean out, then you can start all over again. Yeah, I mean, you know, so the main commercial brands that are available here in the US, like the multivac, the mini pack, the

[47:04] cotch, all of these, they all use this German vacuum pump called the bush pump. And the vast majority of the price of the vacuum machine is determined by the cost of that pump.

[47:16] Bush pumps are just expensive, but they have some serious cojones on

[47:20] them, and they, like Tony said, you know, you run those suckers, and they go, and then they get gummed up because you're going to vacuum water into them, not directly, but in the form of vapor.

[47:31] It's going to contaminate it, and just run those suckers and clean them out. And then they're good as new again. So, you know, I don't know if the lesser vacuum pump, even if it's an oil-based pump, I mean, when it's brand new, it'll get down to the same vacuum levels as the bush, but the bush is like the timex

[47:48] of, uh, you know, vacuum pumps that suckers takes a lick and it keeps on ticking. There's a reason why all of the big companies use it. And there's no way that a sub $1000 chamber vacuum

[48:01] machine is going to have a bush pump in it, right? And so what they're doing, and the rest of it, I mean, programming is great, nice seal bars, it's all

[48:08] fantastic. It's all great. Uh, what you're paying for with the more money is the awesome vacuum pump. Um, you know, the rest of it, you know, is, you know, I'm sure it won't crush under its own vacuum. You know what I mean? So I would definitely go for it for occasional use. I would get the oil based one. You're going to be, I think, less than satisfied with one that's not oil-based.

[48:30] You could, if you're like me, rip the vacuum pump out of the other one and install a real

[48:35] oil-based pump as a separate thing, but now you're talking about spending extra money, time and more space on your counter. Have you used a gaster back? Yeah. do you think? Okay. I'm not a fan of the gastrovac because, um, you know, theoretically, it's meant to do kind of vacuum, um, that can frying, so it's built around a vacuum fryer,

[48:55] but, uh, it's vacuum pump is weak. You know, I mean, compared, now you can hook the gastrovac up to the vacuum pump in a

[49:02] multivac, set the programming to be right, and you'd be damn good. The other thing is, is that, um, the gastrovac, by the way, is a modified pressure cooker with an acrylic lid and it goes to a vacuum pump and it lowers the pressure on the

[49:14] inside, so you could do infusions in oil or frying, stuff like that. But the vacuum pump's just not that good. And that vacuum pump has no way to exhaust the water very well that you're sucking into

[49:24] it, so it gets bogged down very quickly, needs a cold trap. So, you know, I, for Wiley, once I did a test where I ran a, I ran a, a line. I bypassed their vacuum, went directly into my vacuum pump because I use oil-based

[49:37] refrigerator vacuum pumps as just like walk around vacuum pumps. You know, the ones that refrigeration technique technicians use, because they're pretty cheap and you can fill the oil really quickly. They're easy to get to. and used a liquid nitrogen cold trap. And then I got it to work. But as comes from the factory, I don't and even when using his infusion, I don't see why you wouldn't just use your vacuum machine. I mean, what do you have a good use for it? Yeah, I mean, we found that we just, just, even with no heat, just kind of infusing the cook,

[50:06] that almost cold infusing the, the, the cordials and stuff like that.

[50:12] But why not just use your chamber back, just because it's bigger. I think that's here. Yeah. Because you can do like kind of 2 to, you know, 2 to 4 liters in there rather than kind of having to keep putting things in and out and kind of

[50:23] closing it. Well, you know what, what you should do. I did once is just take and build a, like a Lexan, uh, Lexan lid for like a giant stock pot, and then you could just go

[50:34] ape, ape shit, hook it up to a vacuum machine. And then they just go. Yeah. I did that once for Wiley, like way back in the day, before anyone had anything, and I've done it occasionally for myself, when I'm like, uh, I use

[50:49] a gastrovac pot, actually, pot when I'm doing a plaster casting, because I'll use it to deerate plaster, but you could probably go for that and buy, like, the large, um, basically deerators for model casting people, because plaster shops use them, and plastics shops use them to deerate resins and plaster before they pour them into molds, and they have some

[51:10] big pots. And since your food's not going to be directly in it, it's going to be inside of another container in there.

[51:16] Who cares? You know, like what it's made out of. I think they're made out of probably like, you know, plastic and aluminum or something like that. But I mean, who cares? You know what I mean? The food's not going to touch it. And then just make sure you got a good enough vacuum pump on it. All right. Oh, our pizza is showing up. Awesome. So, uh, we got another, we, you know, we have a, we have some fans in Bergen, Norway, which I enjoy. Wow. Yeah, Norway. out of Norway. Yeah. I have Jack, I've already told my one Swedish joke on the air? I don't think so. No? No, maybe I just want to hear it again though. Oh, you want to hear it again? I only have one Swedish joke. Can I use it to taunt nils, my, you know, longtime coworker and good friend who's now back with Marcus Samuelson running all of his restaurant stuff. So, uh, And only Swedes and Norwegians will get this one. Hey, Tony, what's what's a Swede? It's a root vegetable? No, no, that's only in England. What's okay, what's a Swedish person? What's a Swedish person? You don't know? A Norwegian without the oil money. Boom! Yeah. Studio audience like that. Yeah, Norwegians love that one. Anyway, okay. Hopefully I haven't already told that one too many times on the radio. But, you know, if you have a, if you have a, like a Sweden Norway joke. You got to pull it out every once in a while. I have no pony in that race, so I can say whatever I want. Okay. Anyway, Arnie Skog from Arnie Skog Olsen from Bergen, Norway writes in, and says, big fan of the radio show, highlight of his week. I keep up the good work, you know, I hope you have a better week than having this be the highlight. I'm actually your 2nd listener from Bergen, Norway. However, I'm writing you from Brooklyn as I'm here for a few days. I might even go to see you at Roberta's this Tuesday. I't know if he's in the audience, because I don't know what he looks like, audience. I don't know if he's eating pizza at the back is what I mean. Is Indie Jesus on today, by the way? I don't think so. He switched off Tuesdays? I saw him here the other day on a Sunday. Yeah. Anyway, okay. Anyway, New York City is great. I went with a colleague of mine, we're art critics to Booker and Dax, our bar. I'm sorry, I missed you. We loved it, especially the gin and juice. Gin juice is a good drink. Brady, good drink. I like that drink. We went back a couple days later to have awesome whole pork button oysters at

[53:31] Momofukusambar next door. Awesome couple questions. Where can I get calcium hydroxide, like pickling lime in New York City. For some reason, it's impossible to get in Norway, eBay works, but shifting is really expensive, and I'm here now. So by the way, I made rye tortillas, which is I have a recipe for on my blog, using sodium carbonate made by

[53:49] heating sodium, bicarbonate, which worked, but the carbonate had no, not such agreeable flavor to my palate. Still awesome. Thanks for the Knicks to Mall post on your blog from way back in the day. Yes, go to, to get that stuff, go to Kalustians, 123rd

[54:02] Street and Lex between 28th and 29th Street, fantastic place for all your general weird spice news. Good place, right? They have it, or at least they should have it. If they don't have it, it goes under a bunch of different names, slaked lime, calcium hydroxide, pickling lime. If you want to get the Thai version of lime paste in red or white, go to Bangkok grocery on 104 Moscow. Moscow is in kind of Little Italy, Chinatown area, uh, over by where the 5 points district used to be, but call them ahead because sometimes they're out.

[54:30] If you want actual Cal from Mexico, go to El

[54:34] Tepayak grocery on Lexington Avenue and like 103rd Street. and while you're there, stop by Kitchen Arts and Letter, the greatest cookbook store in the United States.

[54:43] Anyway, yeah. Also, uh, an interesting question in, same, same color on, uh, you know, Lute Fisk, have you ever had it? Lutfisk. Lutfisk, it's the fish that, it's like, you take stockfish, which is, you know, the one that's air dried without the salt, and then you soak it

[54:59] and lie, and or you rehydrate it a little bit, then you soak it and lie, then you wash the lie out, and it turns all gelatinous and funky. No, it's kind of like a well-known thing that everyone who's not from there doesn't like it. It's kind of like a slippery. I haven't actually had it. But Harold McGee, our mutual friend Harold McGee, who's now in China, you know, introduced me to a recipe for lie curing eggs really quickly. And so Nils and I did a fake lute fisk where the egg was lute fisk flavored and the fish was just kind of cured regular fish. It was good. I liked it. Anyway, so this is for a weird dish, wondering whether you could do it, long introduction to this, that he calls

[55:38] Lute, which means, like, lie, right? So Lut Fisk is like live fish. And I can't pronounce the 2nd part of it, but lute pinnejot, yurt. I don't know. So this idea was proposed by a friend of mine. So, uh, he goes on to describe Lute Fisk, very old traditional Norwegian disk made from dry cod, with lie. Uh, but there's this other dish that is really famous there called Pinak

[56:04] Jut, which I can't pronounce, which is the whole side of lamb, salted and dried, sometimes smoked, cut along the ribs to make sticks of meat, rehydrated for 24 hours to take the salt out, and then steamed until the

[56:15] salt until the meat falls off the bone. This guy really likes it. So what he's wondering is, uh, and his Italian friend came up with this idea is, can you make that stick meat with a lie solution, same way that you

[56:28] do Lutefisk? And basically he's wondering what happens to the fat. Will it turn to soap? Well, it's uponify with the calcium hydroxide or with lye or with other alkaline. And yes, I think it will. Yes. But the question is like, how long? I mean, I've tested it with chicken, and like a little bit of chicken, and I've boiled chicken with calcium hydroxide, and it tastes good in small amounts, but if you look, apparently I did some research, and in Finland, if you overcure the Lutfisk there, they have a word for it called soap

[57:02] fish, because you've saponified the fats. And if you think about it, the cod that you're using or whatever, laying or whatever you're using in Norway to make your

[57:10] lutfisk is a very lean fish. And so there's very little fat to saponify in that fish. And so you typically don't do it on really kind of oily, oily fish. So I would be wary. I would use very lean cuts of meat and I would not necessarily soak it in as high a solution or for as

[57:29] long, but you will get the tenderizing effect. Look, alkaline tenderization is something that's used in China, for instance, alkaline solutions in meat to get really soft kind of meat textures in beef that's kind of cut thin, marinated in like a baking soda solution or

[57:45] a live solution, not live alkaline solution, and then cooked. And the, you know, the basic principle is that

[57:50] the alkaline solution weakens the protein bonds and so therefore makes it softer, right? And so it'd be interesting to try. A little bit of the modification is good and like lends some of the characteristic flavor to things like tortillas, but a lot of

[58:07] saponification equals soap. And so it wouldn't necessarily be good. But anyway, Arnie, I hope you try it. I hope you stop by Roberta's. They wanted some recommendations or someone else actually wanted some recommendations of places to eat.

[58:24] Jack, do we have another show coming on the air? We got to wrap it up right now. Oh, all right. listen, Tony, thanks for coming in. Pleasure. Anyone who's anyone who's in London, if you don't go to one of Tony

[58:37] C's bars, you are a fool. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage

[59:02] radio network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for

[59:07] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted And I just can't get it straight.

[59:17] Fish, fish, is vodka. Oh, you dirty