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[0:47] Hello. We on? Yeah. Wow. We didn't have any song. Joe, what's up? Uh, trying out a new song and uh, maybe that one won't work. I think it's fine. It's just, you know, I didn't, I thought that was part of the whole, you know, where Heritage radio network. That's the thing. It's like you need a break between the Heritage radio network and the cooking. Am I right? Am I right? Sure. So let's start this fresh people. Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Andre. hosted cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 on the Heritage

[1:17] Radio Network, broadcasting in a container in the back of what is it? Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Live as always, with Nastasia Hammer Lopez, and with Joe in the engineering, with no Jack today, huh? Now Jack's feeling a little sick. Yeah, what kind of sick? I'm not exactly sure. It's some sort of flu type thing. Uh-huh. Is it the kind of flu you can track from drinking all night? Well, I'm just kidding. Let Jack Tweed in or something. Jack is a very responsible man. at least about that, so I'm sure that's not it. Anyway, call your questions live too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, I thought actually uh, Nastasia was going to be late because she had to run around like an incompoop today because we have an

[2:00] event. We have an event later this afternoon. What is the event we're doing anyway? It's for the American new product stuff. What the Stewart? American new product stuff. What's that? New products that Martha Stewart likes. That happen to be American? And we're hoping out? one of those products that she likes? I'm just kidding. I'm just joking. I'm just joking. Apparently, we're supposed to dress in caterers uniforms. Is that correct? All black. All black? So all the only requirement is all black. So sequins that are all black. So if anyone out there knows a source in Manhattan, lower

[2:35] Manhattan preferably for, you know, not to spelt male sequined unitards, please tweet them in so that I can go purchase my sequined

[2:45] unitard. Uh, you know, Booker and Dax became recently uh, obsessed with the word Unitard. And for that, they were way ahead of me. I didn't become obsessed with Unitards and the word Unitard until possibly college. Right? When I 1st started in bands, one of my dreams. was to have, we were in a band called Jurassic Yellow Plastic was to have a yellow sequined unitard and a velvet, a velvet coat with lapels that were about, you know, a foot and a

[3:12] half taller than my head that went up. I was big on Bootsie Collins and that kind of thing. Anyways, on to today's question. So, Nastasia, I realized that last week, I started answering a question, and as is normal for someone like me, totally went completely off base and never actually answered their question.

[3:27] So I apologize to Tom Fisher. Tom Fisher asked, recently, this is not recently anymore because it's 2 weeks, 2 weeks, whatever. I recently tried polyscientist recipe for low temperature ribs. And while the flavor was amazing, my guests were a little freaked out by the unrendered fat. Is there any way to do a combination of high and low temperature cooking to get the best of both worlds? Now, I answered the 2nd question that he had, which was about SeaVass, but I never answered this. It's kind of an important question when it comes to low temperature cooking. The answer is no, you cannot get the best of uh, well, you can't get the best of both worlds in that way. Low temperature cooking. Uh, never renders the fat or the collagen out of uh, out of the meats. And so there's positives and negatives to this. One, the meats don't get as much gelatin and all sorts of broken

[4:13] down, you know, collagen, which is gelatin. throughout the throughout the piece of meat in a low temperature cooked item because the stuff, it turns tender, but it stays in place. And so if you have a portion of something that you're, in a traditional

[4:28] braise, might get a little moistened by that, by that, that render stuff coming out, it's not going to happen in a low temperature. On the other hand, uh, the the benefit of uh, it not rendering out. Well, the other benefit of it not rendering out is, as your guests found out, they can be a little bit freaked out by what they think are big chunks of fat, some of which are big chunks of soft, but

[4:50] unrendered connective tissue. But the benefits are that unlike a regular traditional braise, you can take most and only with shorts. There's a lot of bones, you know, it's much harder. But you can do a lot of fabrication work on low temperature cooked stuff. So you can get very, you know, nicely sliced pieces of low temperature cooked things like ribs that are very tender. that you can never do if you were doing a traditional cooking technique because they would just shred into pieces,

[5:16] right? So, um, so the answer is no, uh, but you, you know, you can't kind of get the best of both worlds because if you rendered that out, you'd be cooking it to such an

[5:25] extent, you might have just done low temperature. I mean, you might as well just done traditional cooking from the beginning. There's no reason to do the low temperature step. So what I would say is, is that use each technique for its own, for its own best purpose. So low temperature ribs, great for doing small portions that

[5:40] are, um, sliced very nicely and sauced and served as part of plated dish components, right?

[5:45] But if you want rendered out, you know, stick to your ribs, ribs, like, you know, you know, grandma style, you know, which I love,

[5:53] then, you know, go go traditional, right? Nastasia actually usually, I think, prefers the traditional one on that, right? Although I don't think they're, I really, honestly, and I've said this a 1000000000 times and I'll probably say it, you know, forever. There's no better or worse. It's not better or worse. you know, can you achieve the result that you want to achieve? So anyway, Tom, sorry about that. Another thing I think I mentioned last week that we had a question about cutting boards, and I talked about cutting boards, I'm just curious out there, if anyone out there has tried these weird multi-layer cutting boards that are coming out of Asia now, where

[6:22] it's, it's like literally just stacked sheets of thin cutting boards that are

[6:27] semi-laminated into one thick board, and then when the top gets dirty, instead of cleaning it, you shove a knife into it and peel the entire top layer of the board

[6:36] off. You ever seen this, nastasia? Oh, that's cool. It's cool, but it's weird. It makes a real, you would hate it. You know why? It makes a something wrong with you noise when the, when the, uh, when layers are separating. It's like... My mustachia hates that because it makes her think of some sort of disease peeling off. I mean, I've made that kind of noise in the kitchen before, not peeling a disease off. Right? Not for that reason, but and you hate that kind of noise, right? hate your breathing. See, now that's classic nostalgia. Now, for those of you out there who say, uh, Nastasia, she give it to me like I give it to

[7:12] her, see, that's the only time on the air, she's ever actually said something like she would normally say to me in, uh, you know, in

[7:18] in the real world, just so you guys get a, get a picture of, of, uh, what's going on. Okay, very nice. Okay. Alvin Schultz tweeted in with a couple different questions. One was, have we ever tried the technique of cryo shocking? So cryo shocking is something that was pioneered, or I should say advocated by, I mean, I don't know who actually came up with it, shucking oysters by putting the oyster into liquid nitrogen for a brief period of time that kills slash messes up the musculature of the oyster, such that when

[7:49] they warm up a little bit, so they're not frozen, you can get a knife in there and you don't have to worry about popping the belly and you don't have to worry about getting little bits of shell into your

[7:59] oyster. Cry shocking. Now, I have to admit, you know, Chris, Chris Young, and, you know, Nathan, Maxine, and those guys. By the way, you know, none of that team together anymore. The whole team split up. The whole original modernist, like all 3 of those guys, they're all gone in their own separate ways at this point. end of that era. beginning of the new era. Uh, so the uh, cryo shucking, uh, I've never had much luck with it. They are big advocates of it. I've spoken to Nathan about it and I've spoken to Chris Young about it. I forget exactly how many seconds you put it in. The idea is not to freeze the oyster all the way through, just to shock the bejesus out of it so that I guess kill it, but so that it, you know, you can, so that it relaxes enough for you to get your knife in without having to put too much force in it.

[8:40] Because when you're putting the force in it that you get the, um, that you get the problems of chipping shell and all that. Now, uh, Nils and I tried it years and years ago, uh, years and years ago, and, you know, we just never had much luck with it. We always maybe we overfroze it. I don't know, but we never, we never really, we never really were too

[8:58] jazzed about it, but, you know, Chris is enough of an advocate of it that I think it bears me trying it, again, at some point.

[9:05] The idea is to freeze it just long enough to get it to relax after it thaws, but not enough to alter the texture by freezing it. You also want to make sure that you put them cupside down when they're thawing, so you don't lose any of the awesome precious juices when you cry a shuck. But shucking oysters is a huge problem. So anything that makes it work out better is probably a good thing to do. Should I share the Nick Wong story, even though I'm probably not supposed to? Dave Chanis, listen. Right? So Dave Chang, Dave Chang is a huge huge on oyster shucking. In fact, we saw him not that long ago in an oyster shucking contest at some where like all of the Momo cooks were racing each other to see who could shuck oysters fastest.

[9:46] And so Dave Chang hates, there's 2 things. There's there's 3 things he hates about oyster shucking. One, if you're slow and puny, he hates that, right? He hates if you pop a belly. That's akin to him, you might as well just punch him in the face as pop an oyster belly. Like he, like that, that would make him punch you in the face. So we're going back to last week's like what would cause a food stuff that would cause your friend to punch you in the face. If you shucked an oyster in front of Dave Chang and pop the belly. And the other one is if you served a customer, an oyster with bits of broken shell in it, that would also,

[10:15] like, that's, like, you know, infinite tirades from Dave Shang. So there was an extern years ago that Nick Wong saw do this. actually, who's so frightened that he saw this. Nick stopped him, so it didn't go out to the customers, as far as I know. So I don't want anyone to think that it went out to the customer, saw the dude rinse an oyster under the water to make sure there was no shell in

[10:36] it. Can you imagine that? Even I might lose my cool on that. I mean, it takes a lot for me to lose my cool at anyone other than Nastasia. Like, people think I get worked up, but, like, honestly, like, to actually lose my cool, it's someone I don't know, that takes a lot, right? You ever see me lose my coolness, someone I don't know? don't think so. No, right? No. anyway, cry is shocking. The other question Alvin had was. He's having problems with this Rotiv app. Road of App is rotary evaporators. used for low temperature, uh, Well, it's a distillation rig that you use in laboratories, and it's got a couple of benefits. One, it does things at low temperature because it's under a vacuum, and when you put things under a vacuum, you can boil at lower temperatures, which means that you don't have any heat damage to very fragile

[11:18] flavors, like herbs. The other thing is, the other 2 things is it's very gentle, very gentle, not just from a heat standpoint, but just gentle in terms of it doesn't have

[11:28] any a lot of bumping and boiling. So it's nice that way. And two, three, it happens under a vacuum. And since it's under a vacuum, there's no oxidative effects when you're doing it. So it's very good for a number of things like that. But if you're going to do legal evaporation, even, even illegal evaporation, I advocate using a cold finger because you want the maximum difference between your condenser and your boiler to get the maximum recovery, a flavor of

[11:53] volitals from things like herbs and whatnot. Because remember, we're not doing primary distillation with a rotary evaporator, we're not trying to get rid of impurities, like you would with a column still. So we're trying to get maximum capture of our stuff back in a rotary evaporator, typically. So we want really cold things. So I use liquid nitrogen. Uh, but because I have a lot of it, uh, in a thing called a cold finger condenser. But Alvin's using, he says he's using dry ice and acetone, and he says that the condenser's getting saturated. First of all, I do not recommend using dry ice acetone

[12:22] in food applications because I don't want acetone anywhere near

[12:26] the stuff I'm working with. And also you're going to get high like a kite if you have a whole boatload of acetone sitting around and it warms up and starts volatilizing. I just wouldn't, I don't really like using acetone in the kitchen, so I wouldn't do that. I would use dry ice alcohol. You can use denatured alcohol, as long as you're sure it doesn't get anywhere near your food, or you could pick up

[12:46] some like Everclear 195 or something like that, and that stuff's fine. I would use that instead of acetone. The other thing is, is that, uh, the dry. I mean, dry ice, this is a classic lab way to do it, dry ice and

[12:58] alcohol, but for some reason, Anastasia, back me up on this. Whenever we do events where we try the dry ice in the condenser, it never seems to be as

[13:06] smooth or work as nicely as when we do the liquid nitrogen in the condenser. For some reason, I'm not sure why, but we always get a lot more boiling and it's just, it's always a lot messier and things seem to get stuck more. And for some reason, we dry is extremely powerful. And I tend also to, for some reason when we do the dry ice alcohol, it tends to gunk up my vacuum lines more because when you're getting, when you oversaturate

[13:30] and something that's cold like that and you start getting vapor, moisture, vapor, or distillate vapor in your vacuum line or near the point where the vacuum line attaches to the condenser, it can clog up, once it clogs up, your thing gets saturated out, you can't get a vacuum level

[13:45] in there anymore. And the only way to fix it is to is to quickly put a blast of air through your vacuum line to clear it out by using the differential

[13:53] and pressure. But when you do that, then, you know, you have all sorts of problems. So once that happens, it's very hard to get your distillation really right back on track. And, uh, so I find that typically, one way to stop that from happening is to always start your distillation before you chill

[14:11] your, uh, before you chill your thing down, get the, get your, get a little bit of a

[14:15] vacuum, so there's not a great, uh, you know, heat conductor, get a little bit of a vacuum going in your condenser before you add the dry ice and the alcohol.

[14:22] Don't put dry ice and alcohol in the condenser and then start your distillation run. But it's very difficult. And I really think that liquid nitrogen, even though it's not as powerful as dry ice. And so therefore it would cost more in the law, and you have to keep refilling it. I just find that it's a lot easier for me to for me to work with. We haven't had as good a luck with dry eyes. Anyway, I hope that helps. Should we go to our 1st commercial break? Sure. We're coming back for my 1st commercial break in a moment. cooking issues.

[14:54] You're listening to No Deceiver by Huntronic on the HeritageRadionetwork.org.

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[16:07] Wow, Joe, I like that. I like that beating in the back of that. It's very... I don't know that it's whole food sounding, but it's like, you know, right? Yeah, I don't know if that's exactly Whole Foods, but yeah, it definitely threw me for a loop. don't know. Is that is that Jack's work? No, that's not Jack. That's actually Rachel Wharton's boyfriend is in this

[16:31] band and he does the theme song for her for her show too. Yeah, nice. It's pretty cool, right? All right. Well, welcome back to Cooking Issues, Call, New Questions, Live 2, 718-497-2128. That's the 24972128. Tom wrote in and said, hi, Dave, and all. So it's not Nastasia. Now you're the all too. She's like, I don't care. I don't care. reading my tweets. Actually, you know what? She's not because Nastasia hates all sorts of social media. She detests it. She detests social things in general, actually, but especially media related to being social, right? true. Yeah. She also likes ordering shoes online, but hates it when other people do it. I don't bring shoes. Oh, yeah? Hold on. You're right. ordering jackets. She's literally, she's sitting here. She always says that she's doing work. She's sitting here, she's sitting sitting here ordering... Is that what you're doing? See, here's the thing. Nostalgia all day has her face in the computer. She's like, you don't know what I do. don't know what I do. The 1st time I ever went and actually took a little computer. She's ordering jackets. And not just any kind of jacket, like early 90s beige barn

[17:33] jackets. No, it's not. Like Jake Cruz stuff. some German like store. So what the hell does that have to do with anything we're doing right now on cooking issues? Nothing. Nothing at all. I'm listening to you though. Uh-huh. What was my last question about? Oh, you just Harold McGee me. Hey, girl, do you like this? Okay, good. The Sasha has this thing that she says, I ask questions and then don't wait for the answer. Well, we don't have all day. It is a 45 minute program. Poor Harold. Crazy. This is a crazy person. By the way, for those of you that don't know, Nastasia, crazy person. Tom writes in, I've recently started making sourdough bread and some other fermented goods. My wife loves the new food, but can't stand the vinegar flies. I put up with them until recently when they started attacking food mid-prep. Traps do trap flies, especially the ones I baited with water and soap to break the surface tension, pear slices, and sprouted, then roasted barley.

[18:24] But I don't want to cook for flies. That is a lot of work. Sprouted and roasted barley. First of all, I hate sprouts. Yeah, we did sprouts in that. We did test sprouts. Everyone out there I know that a lot of you like sprouts. don't like them. don't even like sprouts that everyone likes. I said this many times before. Please don't serve me a p shoot. I know you like it. I know everyone else likes it. I do not like it. Anyway. I mean, I like to sprout barley, you know, not to sprout it, but to germinate. I mean, that's like the basis of many of the foods. I mean, foods, drinks that I like in the world are based on the notion of sprouting barley. But, uh, you know, uh, you know, but don't, uh, I should say germinating it. Anyway, because you know, when you're doing malt, you don't want the, uh, the acrospire to come all the way out of the, uh, out of the

[19:04] barley, because then it's eaten up too much of the, too much of the carbo is used, and you don't have enough left over to make your delicious, delicious

[19:10] beer, or your delicious, delicious whiskey. So don't do that. Anyway, I don't want to cook for flies, and it seems like the trap attracts and then kills extra flies, leaving roughly the same amount to be a nuisance. When I put the ferments in the fridge, the flies abate rapidly. So there isn't some other problem in the background. What do you do? What can I do? What do professionals do? I can't imagine flies would be tolerated in a good restaurant or factory. Thanks, Tom. P S. Dave, did you take any philosophy classes from Michael Della Rocca at Yale? He is my dissertation director. If you did take his class, would you give him a shout on an air? Shout out on air. Well, I'm happy to give him a shout out, but no, I don't think he joined the faculty at Yale before I graduated. I graduated in 93 and I looked him up on the internet and his dissertation was in, I think, 91. So I don't think he was on the faculty at Yale when I was there. Actually, I mean, I haven't looked at their faculty recently. See whether any of the old guard from back in those days was still, you know, there. I'm sure some of a lot of them are still alive. I had a bunch of young people teaching us, but, um, I don't know if they're still there. But I'm going to give a shout out to anyone doing their philosophy dissertation to Yale. Shout out. I love that, man. Like, you know, again, whatever. I mean, I looked them up, uh, uh, uh, you know, Professor uh, Della Rocca is,

[20:30] does a field that uh, I didn't do so much in kind of early modern philosophy stuff. I was more. I did 2 very different sides of the coin. I spent most of my time worried about Play-Doh and Nietzsche. I ended up writing a whole boatload of my papers on Nitro. Nietzsche is designed for like an 18 to 21 year

[20:48] old angst ridden philosophy student at an Ivy League institution. Like, the writing is just like, I need to go back and read it, see what I still like. It'd be interesting whether 41 year old me, it

[21:00] has gets the same kind of feelings from reading Nietzsche. I'm reading your essays? No, crap on my essays. What the hell did I know? I was 20. But I mean, I don't know, the actual work. Go back and read Nietzsche. Have you ever gone back, Nastasia, and read some of the old stuff that you read in college to see whether it's still, like, where they have any feeling about it all? I mean, the, the, the, what I'm worried about is I go back and I read it and I just feel nothing. Wouldn't that be weird to have spent like all that time and then go back and feel

[21:24] nothing? Of course, yeah, service purpose, whatever. Here is a story. So vinegar flies are similar to what are named fruit flies or drain flies. They're all different variants of the dress villa, like melon gaster. You know the famous for filling mellongaster, the ones that they did all the genetics experiments on. fruit flies. They're the same thing, and I hate them. I detest them. I would I'm sure that they serve a great ecological purpose, but I would wipe them off the face of the

[21:50] earth. I absolutely detest them. And they're the bane of bars existence because, you know, so actually, just apropos of nothing. But if you own a bar and you watch someone come in and do a health inspection of your bar, what they do is they go and they grab your bottles of booze, they swirl them and put a flashlight in the bottom of

[22:11] them and they're looking for dead fruit flies on the inside of your bottles.

[22:15] Now the health inspector that we had didn't have the brains to realize that we're not

[22:19] going to have that problem because we don't have speed pores on our bottles. There's no way for flies to get into our bottles. Also, we were saying, we weren't sure if it's actually technically illegal to do an infusion of fruit flies.

[22:31] If you raised food grade fruit flies, could you do a fruit fly infusion and have a bottle that was totally full of fruit flies, like

[22:37] 100% just fruit flies and grain alcohol as an infusion, aside from the fact that infusions might be technically illegal, would there be a further illegality as a result of the fruit flies

[22:48] themselves? It's unclear to me. We're not going to do it, please. I'm 100% kidding, but

[22:54] just wondering about whether it's the fruit flies themselves that are inherently some sort of the health hazard, right? I mean, the health hazard from a fruit flies that it might land on something that's incredibly gross and then land on your stuff. I want to make, I told you I want to make little t-shirts for flies that say my last landing pad was poop. You know what I mean? You want to make a t-shirt? Four or five? Yeah, or somehow like, you know, maybe a little video that where a fly is saying, you know, because a fly is like, yeah,

[23:17] we could, right? Yeah. My last landing pad was poop. I mean, that's the problem with flies. Not fruit flies, but flies. Anyway. So off the topic. I would look up the Ohio State University extension fact sheet entomology on vinegar, pumice, or small fruit flies, Drasfilla, multiple different species. That's the, you know, the genus is dressed for love. Okay, here's the issue. They live anywhere there is stuff they can feed on. So the obvious one that we think of is fermenting products, fermenting fruit. They're attracted to that kind of a thing. Liquids, also garbage. Also, mops that you have out that are mops that are wet. Dish rags that are wet, uh, sponges that are wet, uh, any garbage uh, that, you know, is lying around. Now, the life cycle of them is, you know, between 7 and 14 days. So it takes a while and it takes a while for them to grow. So most likely you have a source somewhere. that is sitting around for long enough for it for these flies to grow. Now, do you want to know what the most likely culprit, I think, is for something like this?

[24:24] If you're not keeping a wet mop around and you're not keeping fruit out,

[24:29] right? And you're not having these kind of problems, drains, it's your drains that are the most likely place where

[24:35] these, where these things are coming from, poor, they're coming from

[24:39] outside. Most screen mesh, most window screen mesh is not big enough. I mean, sorry, is not small enough to stop these flies from coming in. So, uh, all of the, uh, you know, the uh, the sites, you know, the technical sites on it, you need what's called a 16 mesh or finer, which is finer than most uh, screen mesh to exclude uh, these flies from coming into

[24:59] your uh, kitchen. Also, they can enter through, they are attracted to light at night. So if you leave a light on and you have a screen open, they're tracked into the kitchen. They'll then find a mop, a rag, or any place like this to go. Now, the drains are a problem because you can get a biofilm, which is like a layer of slimy gunk that inhabits the inside of the drains, all the way down into where the trap is in the

[25:26] drain. And normal washing, even with hot water, isn't enough to kill and or wipe these things out because the contact time is not long enough.

[25:35] And so what you need to do, if you want to see whether this is where they're coming from,

[25:39] is, and this is, you know, I read this on several of the technical sites, is you want to put tape over a portion of the drain, leaving enough, like, so air can get in and out, and then overnight, and then come in the next

[25:51] day and see whether or not there's any flies stuck to the underside of the tape, which would be indicative that the flies are exiting from the drain pipe in order to lay their eggs and

[25:59] do their nasty, nasty work. So, um, So how to get it out of the drains. You can, you can, like, every couple of months, you can remove your drain, uh, your, your, the actual cover on the drain, take a scrub

[26:12] brush and bleach and scrub that stuff out, then pour, uh, a bio, uh, you know, an enzymatic bio cleaner that

[26:19] will, that will eat away at the, uh, coating that's on the inside of the drain pipe. And then flush multiple times with boiling water. Or, and then, you know, periodically, pour boiling water down your drains to make sure that you're getting rid of it.

[26:33] Um, so that's that's one way to do it. Also, covering up, you know, covering up any source where they might go in that's wet, not keeping any of that stuff in

[26:42] your in your kitchen. Remember, they're attracted to light and to moisture. Now, here's another good one. You can use insecticides, like pyrethrines to kill these suckers, but you don't necessarily want to have those things laying around.

[26:55] Something you might not be aware of, but that I like quite a

[26:59] bit is a product called Gentral. Now, Gentral is something called an insect growth regulator. The actual active ingredient in general. And you can buy this at a lot of stores. You can buy it, I think, on the Amazon is a hydroprene. And hydroprene, and you can look it up, just look up hydroprene. If you look up Gentral, you'll get a bunch of like things trying to sell to you. If you look up hydroprene, H-Y-D-R-O, P-R-E-N-E. You'll get websites that talk about the actual product itself. What it is, is it is a hormone analog. So insects use different hormones to try and, you know, try and

[27:37] uh, signal within their bodies that they need to move to the next level of uh, either growth, a different instar, with their, in a nymph phase, or uh, or to lay eggs. All parts of their reproductive and growth cycles are regulated by

[27:51] hormones the same way that we are. Fortunately for us. Mammals and insects have different hormones. And so we can use a hormone, it's not the actual hormone that's in the insects, but it's analogous to it. It affects the same systems that real hormones do. And we can essentially provide birth control to insects. So the cool thing about this hydroprinus gentral is it's totally food safe, and it's not a human or a mammalian hormone at all. So you can spray it on surfaces that are typically difficult to totally eradicate all water from porous wood surfaces, things like that, things that can

[28:29] trap and hold moisture, and a great breeding place is for

[28:33] these wretched flies. You can spray gentral on them, you know, a couple of times. It lasts for a good long while in there, and it will provide continuous birth control for flies, such that they will not be able to reproduce. Okay? So, uh, you know, we we use this. And by the way, it works on almost all insects.

[28:55] Go to read, if you want to read a scholarly paper on it, go read,

[28:59] hydroprene, mode of action, current status, in stored product, pest management, insect, insect resistance, and future

[29:05] prospects by SM Mohondas. That's available. It's in the magazine crop protection 2006. and it's available for free on the USDA.gov website.

[29:15] And it goes through what it does and all of the studies of it. And it's good stuff. It's general. It also wipes out cockroaches, and it also wipes out moths. So, you know, and I think it also might work on flower beetles and things like that. So if you're having some sort of hard to crack infestation, that's probably due to something, somewhere in your kitchen, you can't find that these suckers are attracted to. Spray this on it. They'll go back to where they came from, wherever they lay eggs and those eggs will not be fertile. So it's good stuff. Hope that the way he thinks. Good? Do you like the tentral, right? Did you ever use it? Did you take some, do you have any problems at your house? Really? Even though you live in Hell's Kitchen? Hell's Kitchen's like, you know, it's like the older of a building you live in or the more people in it, the harder it is to kind of eradicate these things. We once had a, you know, I've had it work wonders on cockroaches at general. I mean, I like it, and, you know, it's nice to find something because I have 2 kids in my house, so I don't want to spray a lot of poisonous stuff around, you

[30:12] know? I mean, I used to have no pets. Now we have the 2 hamsters. Did I ever say on air that the one hamster escaped? My kids had the hamster, the hamster escaped. We brought another hamster and the other hamster showed up like a week and a half later, like the prodigal hamster. He was totally emaciated and messed up and like, you know, like, you know, on a forced march kind of a situation. My wife saw him and was like, ah, she thought it was some sort of crazy road. She's like, oh my god, Rhino, you've come back. and gets rhino. And like we had 2 cages, a mini storage cage, right? For the, and the big one, then the New Hampster, Sulu, had the

[30:45] run of both hamster cages, right? And then all of a sudden, Rhino comes back. And Sulu gets shoved in a small cage and Rhino gets his big cage back because the hamsters can't live together because they might, you know, rip each other

[30:56] into shreds. And we were all like, holy crap. And we're like, wow, it's just like the prodigal son from the Bible. He can leave. He can do what he wants. comes back, you guys, really? Hey, dad, how was the cows come? You so much nicer to the one that did all this other crap. He's like, I always had you as a son. But this son I had lost and now I have him again. What? What kind of message is that? Crazy. You're following it. Look, here's the thing. Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Now, look. For those of you that aren't parents or have never been or young or whatever, okay, when you read the prodigal

[31:31] son, you know, section of the Bible, you're like, that is some load of bull. What the hell is that? You know what I mean? You're like, this is horse crap. But then once you become a parent, you understand it? Really? Why? Because it's true. You think you've lost something and nothing is worse than the loss. And then when it comes back, it's like, hello. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? He doesn't even give him the bigger cake. Go kill the fatted carrot. The prodigal hamster is back. Hey, Dave, I think you have a call. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, choose the crew. It's Brian, it's just go. Oh, hey, Brian, how you doing? Good. Okay, my question is, I'm looking for your tips to make the best pancakes and waffles. Ooh, what are your, what are your criteria for, for a good pancake and waffle? Because the answer depends. Okay, so not soggy, uh, yeah. got a little little crunch on the outside. It's got some fluffiness to it. Uh, and I'm also interested in, in, in maybe going the savory route also. So, both, both for breakfast and uh, and for, for dinner. So for dinner, most people on their pancake style things will... Korean

[32:52] with kimchi or something like that. Right. I mean, they'll like, most people want a different texture on a dinner pancake than they want. They want usually more crepe like on on a dinner style

[33:03] thing and the secret to crepe like things is to let the batter rest a long time, not only because of hydration issues, but

[33:12] to make sure all the air is out because it's very hard to get a good spread on a crepe if there's any air left over in the batter. Okay. But... Thin, right. Now, but if you want to do standard pancakes and waffles. If you do, if you research old recipes on pancakes and waffles. You'll find that the major difference between them. In fact, in some ways, the only difference you need to pay attention to between them is that a waffle recipe is going to contain a significant amount of oil or

[33:41] oil-like thing like butter. Okay? And the reason is, is you need something to,

[33:48] uh, you need something to reduce the, uh, sticking to the sides of the of the waffle iron. So if you try to do a lower fat version of a waffle,

[33:59] you'll find that it just sticks like nobody's business. Modern day waffle irons have a Teflon coating on the inside of them and are much better at releasing. And so don't require as much fat in them as the old school recipes. And so you'll see a lot of more modern recipes, really tone the fat level down because the fat level can be quite high. We're talking, uh, you know, like over well over half of a cup of uh, half a cup. Well, like 2 sticks of butter worth. Yeah, well over a cup, right? Whatever. Anyway, in like a 4.5 cup flour recipe. So you're, um, a significant amount of, I find, though, that I like it better with that high amount of fat in it. Now, I used to try various different things in my pancakes and waffles. So I use the same, long story short, I use the same recipe because I'd rather have the more fat in my pancake recipe than the less fat in the waffle.

[34:50] It makes it easier to remember. So I use the same batter for both pancakes and for waffles. So the recipe. Also, what I do is I hydrate a certain portion of the flour in my liquids before

[35:01] I before I start working. I use buttermilk because I like the results I get. So the recipe that I actually use at home. It's not really measured, so I have to give it to you is I use a quart of buttermilk, right? The regular cultured, like, buttermilk, which isn't actually buttermilk, but that's what everyone calls buttermilk. I use a quart of that. Five whole, I use extra large eggs. I don't know why, but I always have 5 extra large eggs. Um, I then add a portion of the flour. I usually add like a cup and a half . My wife, and I actually like the taste of it. So if I'm going to use a non-traditional flower at this point, I add it then. And I, a lot of times use a mixture of oats and or buckwheat flour and or cornmeal, and or, you know, some little bit, but you can't use too much wheat term, some of that,

[35:49] some, or whole wheat, all different kinds or, uh, or, uh, chapati flour at this point. I add it now, right, at this early stage, along with vanilla, which I usually use vanilla at that point, and if I'm going to use

[36:03] it, rum, and also sugar to taste, to make it a little bit sweeter.

[36:07] And that's what I would omit for a savory recipe, okay? Blend that thing together and allow the hydration to start. There's so much, there's so much, um, um, there's so much moisture in that that you're not going to develop any gluten. Don't worry about, and I hit it with a stick blender to get it really well blended at that point. You don't need to worry about gluten development at this point. I melt. I also salt. Sorry, add some salt to it. I then melt. What about the chemical governors? Yeah, I add that later. So then I add, so I let that hydrate for a little while. Then I melt 2 sticks of butter, which is, I guess, a cup, or mixture of oil, depending on what you're doing if you don't want the butter. I I mix I blitz that in. Then I add a portion of the remaining flour, and then it sounds like a lot, but 4.5 teaspoons of baking powder. And I used to only use

[36:56] four. And I used to also make a thinner recipe with the flour I added, but I decided I like my pancakes

[37:02] thicker. And so I add a slightly more baking powder. I take it up to 4.5 and I add a little more flour to make a stiffer. If you want it thinner and you want the pancakes a little thinner and not quite as fluffed out,

[37:14] more less cakey, then take it down to 4 teaspoons, and don't add as much flour at the end. So 4.5 teaspoons baking powder and 2 teaspoons soda to counteract the acidity from the

[37:25] buttermilk and to do extra leavening. Then I stir in enough flour to get the

[37:32] consistency the texture I want and I cook it. I cook them on a large crepe maker, actually, because I have a crepe maker from France. And what I usually do is I'll hit it with a little bit of a high initial heat to start the crust going because it's also there's a big wallop of a heat load on your pan because there's all that moisture sticking

[37:49] to it. And then I'll reduce the heat down, wait for the bubbles when they break. I can see that I've cooked enough through my pancake for a good flip time, flip, and cook out. That's how I, that's my standard pancake, and I use the same recipe for waffles. I tend not to try any of the more comp. I've done them many times, but I don't do a lot of the more complicated stuff like separately, whip the egg whites and then fold them in because I find that it reduces the structure on the inside of the waffle or pancake to the extent that it's not what I'm looking for anymore.

[38:17] Does that make sense? makes sense. What if a thing, so what is, what, you know, if I want to do banana nut or add, add some fruit, fruit or something in there. And then also, what about yeast it? What if I want to go with, with, with yeast and and, um, put some yeast and do the overnight thing? Right there. 2 kinds of yeasted? There's people that add yeast just for flavor, but then are doing standard rises on it,

[38:38] and you know, that you can do whenever you want. The overnight ones, they taste great. They, they, um, they tend, uh, they have a very unique flavor. I actually really like them, but not everyone's a fan of that kind of a yeasted flavor, but I think they're great. I also used to, uh, I used to use, um, you know, so sourdough that's not right for bread baking, i.e. it's too far gone. It's very sour, but I used to keep that stuff around, not, and then I would, I would try to reconstitute it into a real bread starter to do bread, but I would use that starter as a, as just an addition to

[39:16] sourdough pancakes, where then it's functioning a lot more like the buttermilk. That's also delicious. But remember, like those kind of pre-ferments are going to change the structure of the flour a little bit, so the pancakes won't have quite the same texture as a non-fermented pancake will.

[39:31] Not better, not worse, different. You know what I mean? So they'll have a little bit of that glossier inner crumb structure that you're going to get from a sourdough than you would from a normal, normal kind of a pancake thing. As regards fruit. Because there's Mark gluten development. Or I think because it breaks, I think because it breaks things down. Acidity is messing with the structure, I think the same way that it's actually weakening it. Uh, but, uh, you know, I would think. I haven't done the research on it. I mean, that's just off the top of my head. On fruits, though, I tend not to mix fruits into the batter unless they are completely dry. I don't want her to bleed out and also it's harder to dose them in. So I always add them to the, I put the pancake down. I'll then add the fruit and the correct dosage and pattern to the pancake. And then because I'm extremely anal. I will take a spoon and paint a thin layer of batter over each piece of fruit before I flip it. That's how I do it. I used to do this also with I used to use frozen blueberries all the time in my in waffles. Let me tell you this. It works great except for expect to buy a new waffle iron every couple of months because the blueberry burns onto the surface of the

[40:42] Teflon, and it is, they are never the same again. And so eventually your, your, a wafflier is going to start sticking and you could sit there with uh, with like a wooden chopstick and try to scrape that stuff off as much as you want to, but those waffle irons never come back to the same condition after you've

[40:59] stopped, you know, after you've started putting fruit into them. Now, maybe worth it to you. And I thought it was worth it for a while, but, you know, the last time I had my waffles start sticking uncontrollably. I was like, I'm just not doing this anymore. I haven't even replaced my waffle iron and my sons are like, dad, can you buy a waffle iron again? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'll get around to it to buying a good waffler. My last one was one of the flip guys. The ones that emulated the professional style, the flip ones. The flip ones are actually designed to have a much more watery dough and they're designed to cook a lot faster and to have a lot more of an empty inside. That why they flip, right? You flip it so that you can get the equals structure on each side. But even so, I used a standard recipe in them and they weren't great. I loved the flip guys because there's so much faster. I mean, no one's designed the perfect waffle iron yet. What you really want is a waffle iron that, you know, plugs into a 220 source and can make 4 real-sized waffles at once because unless you're feeding only yourself. Let's face it, who cooks waffles for themselves, it's a huge pain in the butt to crank out enough waffles for everyone and then have everyone eat at the same time.

[42:00] Don't you agree on this? There's always going to be something that are going to be more crisp than others. Yeah, yeah. I know. I hate that. You know, but the problem is, people don't have the power. Uh, you know, in their house to typically do it. I once invested in a bunch of old cast iron waffle irons, the ones that make the really thin, weird little waffles. That's what I had. Yeah, but they always stuck a little bit. They were never as release friendly as the other ones, but they did allow

[42:25] me because I have 6 burners. I could crank out a whole bunch of them. Do you like the little cast iron guys? Uh, I like it. It's it's pretty well good. This one's pretty well greased. Um, Yeah, I find that it has, it trans, once it heats up and it's cranking. It's, it's, it's going pretty well. I like it. Yeah, nice. Well, maybe I'll give it a try again. It's certainly the only way to get out a bunch of waffles at once is to fire up a bunch of burners with a bunch of cast iron. Well, let me ask you more about the savory one because I got, I had a recipe for a kimchi pancake that, um, it, it, the, it

[43:00] was um, half potato starch, half, all purpose

[43:04] flour. Right. Um, and it seemed to crisp up pretty, pretty nicely, but it's a very different kind of deal because it's got a lot of, a lot of kimchi in there and a, and a fair amount of

[43:16] veg. Right. So, um, uh, you know, do you, do you have any thoughts on, on, uh, on that for the savory application? Well, what what did you not like about the texture of it? No, I actually like it. I don't know if, if, uh, you know, if I can take, um,

[43:35] if I can do that, that, uh, that one to one with the, the potato starch and,

[43:41] and uh, um, and the all purpose flour and do, use it for other kinds of, um, other kinds of things.

[43:47] I mean, probably, it's interesting. I've never done that high of a ratio. I used to, all of my cookies. I used to bake with a, like a, uh, a 5 to one AP to cornstarch base to soften them. You know, I mean, I mean, probably they're adding the cornstarch there to soften the pancake up a little bit so that the actual structure of it's not too

[44:09] glutinous. It's not too tough, uh, which would, I guess, help if you were going to do a lot of, um, whipping or beating. But again, I'm also using a lot of low gluten stuff in my current pancakes, so I never have a problem with them getting tough. I'm using a lot of things like oats and stuff like that. fairly high usages. So you could, you know, usage rates that is, so you could, uh, on a flower basis. So I'm sure you could, uh, I'm sure you could use it for whatever you want. If you like the texture of that. Like I say, I've done that much of non-glutinous flowers, but I've never used that much corn starch. It should hydrate relatively quickly. You know, this one's potato starch, actually. Oh, potato. If the texture is closer to like a, like a latka, like a potato pancake. Um, than a more than a kind of a sweet pancake, like a breakfast pancake. Right. Potato starch is weird. I would expect it to be dense and very moist. Uh, well, the inside is is is that way, but the outside crisps up very nicely.

[45:07] Yeah. It's interesting. I'll have to do some, what was the source of the recipe? There was a, it was from the New York Times website. Actually, it's based on a restaurant in Manhattan, I think. Yeah, well, I'll try, I'll try, send you the link? Yeah, yeah, send us a link on the... You can pass it on. Cool. Thanks a lot. Okay, thanks. Bye. Bye. Derek writes in with a question. Hi, I've listened to many shows in the last couple of years and I've heard a great deal of advice on cooking low temperature, especially beef and chicken. I don't recall much advice for lamb, though. So as I have a £2 lamb shoulder roast in my possession. I'd like to ask for some pointers. My plan is to cook it at 60 degrees. a.k.a. 140 Fahrenheit, which by the way, people, I've said this a 1000000 times. Remember that one. Always that, like, if you remember no other Celsius to Fahrenheit conversion. Remember 60 to 140. In my circulator, chill, rethurm and finish in a 450 degree or 500 degree oven for service. I like my lamb medium. is 61. I like my lamb medium. 60 degrees Celsius in appropriate temperature. Uh, it's what I'm, uh, it's what I aim for when I'm oven baking or oven roasting, but I wonder if you have a different recommendation for long cooking

[46:17] in a circulator. Two, I'm planning on cooking it for 6 to 8 hours and I want to balance between breaking down connective tissue and not making it too muttony.

[46:24] Is this long enough? Next, at what temperature should I retherm it to get it warm without overcooking it during the final oven browning?

[46:31] Uh, 130, for instance. Is that a good is that a good thing? Uh, the internal temperature to rethermitude. Thanks, Derek. Okay. First of all, to me, 60, like, I looked up online, to me, 60 seems a little bit high. Look at some, I mean, a little bit high for cooking for that long. The longer you cook it, the kind of lower you can get the temperature down. And I mean, unless it's strictly speaking, a color issue, you're going to go up. 60's not too high, I would try to. I mean, I would do it at 57 or 58, but 60 is probably

[47:07] gonna be fine. You could try it. It's not it's not going to be horrible. If you really want it more on the on the well, not well, but on the medium side, 60 might be a good number. I don't think that um, I don't think that 6 to 8 hours is going to be enough, you're probably going to want to go longer, like 12 to 24 uh, at 60. But, uh, you know, your problem is, is that you, it depends on how tender you want it, right? So the longer lamb usually doesn't need to take as much cooking as other things because lamb, it's lamb. So it's younger. So the connected tissue is easier to break down than it is in an older animal. So it typically doesn't take as long a time as you would with an older animal, but, um, it's still probably going to take longer than 6 to 8 hours. You'll get some tenderizing effect at 60 for 6 to 8 hours, definitely, but it's

[47:57] going to be the difference of taking something, let's go back to steak land. It's going to be the difference of taking something from skirt steak, texture to rib steak texture. Okay? Not the difference of taking something from, uh, you know, an undone braise to a

[48:13] Dun braise. So, you know, it might be tender enough for you, but the, like, if it's going to be, if you're going to do something at 60, so you're going to do it at that high a temperature, I think you needed to get it really, really tender in order

[48:24] for, like, that level of doneness to be pleasant, in which case you're going to need to go longer. Like, like, 8, 12 to 24. I would probably cook it as high as 24. I think that the mutney flavor that's going to come out is going to come out by 8 hours

[48:38] anyway, if you're having a piece, it's going to get one of those gamey mutney flavors. So I don't think that the extra 12 hours is going to accentuate that cooking that much. anyway. Usually, when a meat protein is going to start throwing off a gamey, livery, muttony taste. It's happening in the 1st four, five, 6 hours. So by the time you get to 8 or nine, I think that flavor's already developed, not that it won't intensify over time.

[49:04] Now, if you're going to chill this guy all the way down, I think that,

[49:09] uh, you know, I still think that it's only £2. So I would do it in a very high temp oven to brown up the outside and don't worry about how warm it's going to get in the middle. You could throw it into, uh, you could rethermit 130. What's that in Fahrenheit? If someone do that. I mean, in Celsius, could someone do the conversion like Celsius to Fahrenheit for me? 130? Yeah. What is that? Mustache's looking it up. 54? Yeah, 54 for a 60. I mean, I would do it even lower. I would re therm it at like 52. I would bring it up at like 52, up to temperature for like half hour, maybe something like this. Depends on how thick you are. Go to sous vide dash or whatnot, and find out how long it's going to take to get up to those temperatures up to like 50 in that range, and then sear it off from there, or even slightly before it gets up to

[50:05] that, when the center is like in the 40s, or the center's in like the, you know, like in the mid 40s. You'll get a good roast on the outside and you're not going to overcook it. Um, That's what I would that's what I would recommend. What do you think? Or you can just pull it. you can just drop the temperature of the circulator for the last hour, if you don't want to chill it down, drop the temperature of the circulator for the last hour, throw ice cubes, drop the temperature of the circulator to 50, pull it directly from the circulator and throw it into

[50:30] the and throw it into a hot oven and you should be all right. Okay. One last question from Rob Trey Paz? I think it's one last. I think I only have one last. Hello, when I cook low temperature or sous vide at home, I typically serve all that I make or chill sealed bags to retherm them for a separate meal. Typically, I follow the 72 hour rule for 5 degrees Celsius, 41 degrees Fahrenheit storage, as per the FDA time and

[50:53] test standards for sous vide, in my domestic refrigerator or freeze for longer storage. If I follow the storage, uh, the FDA storage guidelines, then sear or retherm the food. Can I safely hold the leftovers for the next day or 2 under refrigeration? Uh, do the FDA sous vide standards, uh, pages one through 186 in modernist cuisine, only,

[51:12] uh, no, volume one, page 186, I guess, for modernist cuisine, only pertain to the time spent in the anaerobic environment, i.e. until the bag is opened.

[51:20] Do these restrictions go away if I use ziplocs instead of vacuum bags? I have some duckcom fees, sous vide at 180 for 8 hours, children stored in the freezer for a month, and I would like to use it to make

[51:30] riettes. What kind of storage and serving window would be appropriate? Thanks again for all your help, Rob Treypas. Well, that is a, that is a really, really good question. So it, I, If you're if you're storing it for a month. right? You're going to want to have your storage as per the storage things all the way down at 38 Fahrenheit. However, with confit, you're going to cook it, right? So what they're worried about on that probably is a botulism problem. And, you know, if you're going to reheat it enough, um, I think you're going to be all right. You're going to cook it, you're going to recook it and make riettes with it. What kind of storage and serving window would be appropriate. If you pull something out of a bag and you consider safe, it should be all right to redo

[52:17] it normally. There's 2 issues going on and you rightly point them out here. One is you're worried about, uh, you know, anaerobic things, uh, going wrong in your bag, i.e.

[52:27] botulism or mic, or facultative bacteria, microaerobic stuff like listeria going on, you're

[52:32] going to wipe out the listeria. So you're worried about things that are spore forming like, if you do a good job cooking. So if you're actually cooking it properly. Uh, so you're worried more about things like uh, botulism. And, um, you're still, you know what, Rob? Like, for some reason, my brain is totally fried. I'm trying to parse through everything that you're saying, and I, when it comes to safety, I want to make 100% reliable judgment as to what I'm

[52:55] doing. So I'm going to go ahead, reread your question, because when I read it, I thought I could answer because usually I can answer most safety things off the top of my head, but I want to make sure I give you exactly the right advice on the order of what you're doing, things

[53:05] and where they're going to go. So I'm going to hold off on finishing your question for next time. And on my way out, we have a question from Mike Chesski says, oh, by the way, he says PS, because I know they're going to cut us off before I'm done. He says you guys need to have a TV show from your from your lips to the, I don't know, some producers ears. The problem is, very few people want to actually do a show the way that, you know, that we would want to do a show, which is, I like to just go, I just like to go crazy on particular subjects for a long period of time, and most people, they

[53:36] don't, they don't like that so much, right? Right. Right. It turns out, turns out they don't like it so much. Anyway, my question concerns dairy products and heat. I sometimes add dairy to hot dishes. For instance, I might finish a curry with a bit of yogurt or add sour cream to a

[53:50] poprikash, which I haven't had one in a long time. They delicious. Anyway, sometimes the dairy curls and looks gross. It does look gross. You are correct. I think it has something to do with the way proteins denaturing and binding to the K-pro casing proteins. Uh, well, that I'm not sure about that. But anyway, could you explain exactly what is going on in any possible solutions. One trick I found, which sometimes works, is tempering the dairy with a bit of the hot liquid and then incorporating it back into the main pot. Thanks, Mike. Okay. Um, What's happening is, is that the, you know, in something like a sour cream, the stuff is partially

[54:23] coagulant broken together, but it's still okay. You stir it in, it's acidified. So it's right at the place where it's going to break and curdle and look awesome. It's very, very touchy. And this is why all the recipes recommend to you that you,

[54:33] you know, don't heat sauce after you add the sour cream to her. You're very gentle when you heat it. And the reason they're asking you to temper the stuff in is because if you put the sour cream directly into the hot sauce, especially if it contains acidic things like tomatoes that are adding to the acidity of it, right, it will tend to break right away, whereas if

[54:54] you're stirring the dairy product and adding hot liquid into it, it's much more gradual

[55:00] change and so you're not going to cause kind of the instant break where it's going to happen. The, um, the recommendation. So that's why that recommendation is there, right? The braking is enhanced by heating, which is why the recommendation is also there to not heat up those things.

[55:17] The other one that works is to add a stabilizer. So if you're adding a stabilizer and a lot of, uh, you know, people put either starches or flour in, uh, and the flour

[55:27] uh, prevents the uh, prevents the, the, the agglomeration of the uh, of the caseine. And so it prevents that curdling, and that, you know, that's doing that. On the other hand, that's going to muddy the flavor somewhat of it by masking it with the with the thing. My, uh, my, uh, the person who's now, what's Piper's what's Piper's job with us? Uh, product engineering, I think it is. Yeah. He uses pectins actually, a particular kind of pectin. I'll try and get it for the next show to do acidified dairy products that don't curdle. And he made a really acidified dairy product for us yesterday. It was kind of, was kind of, what do you think about that? I didn't taste it. Anyway, so you can do that. Again, my brain, totally bad. I didn't read precisely what you had said, I don't think it is the way proteins binding to the casing proteins, although I will research it for the next time, as well as answer, a question about

[56:23] Pectanex that came in that I didn't get a chance to answer until next week. Cooking issues.

[56:40] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.

[57:15] Wake up, we wake up all day. What would you do without me?