[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Rolling Press, a family-run eco-friendly printing company. For more information, visit rolling press.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.

[0:24] Cooking issues! Go.

[0:35] We're all so cure, Creas, cooks at heart. We've got some questions, but don't know query starts. Dame Nastasias to Jack and Joe, too. They're all here

[0:54] now. To listen and help us through. Call Shed your questions too. 7 quarter, 497, 2128 to get your cookie. He's all fine. Dave and Crew. So, call on Shin With your cooking issues. Every Tuesday. At noon. And that was Joe Gargano, where the cooking issues theme song live, coming to you in the back of Roberta

[2:01] Street, and Bush with Brooklyn. Hey Joel, thanks for coming by. How you doing? Thanks for having me. Yeah, no problem here. Pull that mic over there. We're also joined with America. Hello. Hi. She doesn't have a mic yet. She will in a second. Disappointed where Joel's mouth used to be pointed. And as usual, joined with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, Joe and Jack in the engineering booth. No, Joe. No, Joe. Joe's on tour, man. On tour? South by Southwest. Yeah, he's on the road with the big ups. Yeah? Yeah. Doing his front man routine? Rock star life. Where's he going to tour? Where's he going to go? He'll be in Austin doing a few shows down there. And I think a few shows on the way to Austin. So there's something like 8 shows in 15 days. What's the big venue nowadays between here and Austin? Oh man, I don't know. You're asking the wrong guy. No? I have no idea. Anyway, good luck to Joe. Go out and see Joe. That was great, Joel. Yeah, that was great. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming in. And this was the long-awaited live performance of the cooking issues theme here on the air. So, in case you weren't paying attention to the theme song. Call New Questions Live 2, 718-497-2128. 7184972128. Got a lot of crap to go through. Oh, by the way, where are you guys hailing from? People don't already know. New Haven, Connecticut, is where I work. from Clinton, though, so the southern shoreline of Connecticut. Yep, back when I was there, there was an awesome song by a Connecticut band called Gravel Pit called Going

[3:22] back to Southern Connecticut. I't know if you remember that song. Yeah, from the early 90s back when I was up in New Haven Way. What you guys doing in New Haven? So I'm a corporate chef. So I have a corporate cafeteria that I run. But I most of my experiences in fine dining, so I sort of take that and move it to serve people lunch of this company that I work for called Hire

[3:42] one. They seem to really like it. I got a decent budget to work with, great people, great staff. And I just take a big interest in sort of the modernist movement and doing everything in house. So I run a full bread program there. I run a charcuterie program. And we serve this to people on blue plastic trays and it's kind of funny. Nice, nice. I haven't been up to New Haven a while. Nastasia's sister up there at the Yale at this very moment. All right, let's get cracking. We got a lot of crap. Oh, before we're announcing what the Kickstarter is today, we haven't we haven't filmed it yet, but as of last week, I guess Friday, right? We have our patent pending. Is that true, Stas? was Friday. So I have my 1st patent pending. And so now I can tell you guys what it is we're working on. Here's what it is. Anyone who's listening to me knows that I have issues with the use of torches in the

[4:29] kitchen because when you, what happens is I always find that they make what I call a torch taste and that you can tell the flavor of something if it's been torched.

[4:38] The other problem with torches is that they tend to burn one spot if you're not very careful, so you have to back way back on them. It's very difficult to control because you have a very hot kind of point heat source that's blasting very fast. You can also move stuff around. The torch gases are moving so fast. Now, for years, years, we've all thought that what was going on was an improperly mixed

[5:01] flame, right? Or incomplete combustion of the propane or butane. And so there was a lot of arguments back and forth on, well, it's the, it's the gas, right? So that's why some people are like, well, butane tastes better than propane, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or that

[5:17] somehow if you can complete the combustion of what I, if fact, what I used to think it was, was they put, um,

[5:22] stink stinkophints. I don't know what they're called. Odorants. There you go, into gases so that you could tell if there's a gas leak. Typically, uh, uh, sulfur containing things, mer captains that you can smell in very small concentrations. So I always thought it was some sort of residue of that that hadn't been fully combusted. Anyways, uh, turns out, uh, none of that's the case. We sent some products, including the new thing that we're making over to Ariel, UC Davis, our good friend, who did some GC mass spec work on meats cooked in a pan, meats cooked with a regular

[5:53] torch, and meats cooked with our new attachment. Right? Now, what our new attachment does is it arrests the flame, right, allows for complete

[6:02] combustion, but also spreads it out and turns it into mainly radiant energy.

[6:07] So what it is, it's a cone that fits over your torch and has 2 screens on

[6:13] it, and those 2 screens convert the majority of the heat of the torch into radiant energy and stops

[6:20] it from being a direct hardcore blasting flame onto your thing. And also spreads it out evenly so that you have a 3 inch circle of glowing red, like,

[6:29] right, it's stars. It's like crazy glowing red. And the other thing about it with it, because the screen is such a light thermal mass, unlike other radiant things like salamanders, it take a long time to heat up, this suckers at full blast in like a couple of seconds. Not, everyone says, oh, man, man, salamander, instant on, bull crap. You light up a salamander. It's many minutes until it's raging at full speed. Yeah, you can start cooking with it pretty quickly, but this sucker, instant on. Anyways, so she did a test of pan cooking, torch

[6:55] cooking, and the new attachment that we're making. And it turns out that what's happening with the propane isn't uncombusted fuel. It's that the super high heat, high intensity, direct flame on that torch is creating new combustion flavors on the meat that are undesirable and

[7:15] taste fuely. And we have the data, and when we do the Kickstarter, you know, in, in like a, we'll probably do the Kickstarter, what, like a month or something, does? What do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. Anyway, so like we'll show the diagram, she did the taste diagram, and there's kind of a good half and a bad half. Our half is, it doesn't taste the same as pan, but we haven't done test versus grilling, which is what we think it's more

[7:37] like, or like straight broiling. But we're on the good half of the taste thing, and the torch cooking by itself is on the bad half due to these other newly created cooking byproducts. Anyhoo, so we have one problem left with this attachment. And it'll fit on, we're making it right now to fit on the 3 most common torches that you have in kitchens. But the one problem we have. We don't have a name for it yet. Right, Stars? Yeah, we sort of, we've thrown around many, many. Yeah, but no one likes, no, we don't like it. We all like different names. Yeah, well, Nastasia likes... Okay, well, Nastasia likes, which is absurd because too freaking long for a name. The all searing eye, because it looks like... That's not my, that goes to Piper. Piper came up with a name. No, he didn't. Oh really? No, you just like it best. Yeah, he came up with a name and I came up with that. I came up with that. Anyway, I mean, like, I'm glad to give Piper his ups. You know, I love myself in Piper, but it's an absurd name for the product because it's too long. Hey, could someone go get the all searing eye? No, it's not going to happen. And in the kitchen. won't happen. So then I was like, hey, because I love saws alls, because who doesn't love a saws all? Anyone out there that doesn't love a sawsaw can come and have a discussion with me privately. Saws alls are amazing. And what do they saw? Do they saw some things, Joel? Everything saw us all. So I was like, well, what about Sears all? Sears all. But and everyone's like, it sounds like Sears Roebuck. I't want to buy it because it sounds like Sears Roebuck. So I got some some some blowback on that. You can't use anything with the word dragon in it because it's already a torch company that uses the word dragon. Uh, it's got to be something, um, it's got to be something, I don't know,

[9:07] that, that's easy to trademark. We like, I liked, uh, we like some version of Sally, like Sally, but

[9:13] like Piper, this is Piper's, Sally Hander. But it's another silly name. That was Mark's. That was March. I know, it sounds not family friendly, right? Yeah, Sally Hander. Sally Hander, right. Here's why I like Sally, though. I like Sally. I liked Sally. What did I like? I like Sally Maddock, but no one likes that because Dak's like Sally Maddock. But the reason people don't like people don't like the silly names. Why I like Sally is it sounds friendly, and it sounds like something you might say, Sally, instead of Sally, but in

[9:40] a, in a, what's it called? when I'm bowing to pressure from Nastasia, we're going to probably put the letters ASE for all steering eye after

[9:46] this because we're patenting the whole tech. We're pat... Oh, yeah, and we should base our... No, I mean it's great. All right, all right. So anyway, so we'll probably put the letters ASE afterwards, because this is the

[9:58] all-steering eye version, and we might have a tabletop version, it's not. So here's the here's the cooking issues contest of the next week because we need to get this thing straightened

[10:05] out. We're working on it, so we might not use any suggestions. However, if we get a suggestion that we use, you will get a free version of whatever

[10:13] the hell this thing is called, that where you're trying to help us to name, uh, without having to invest money in the Kickstarter, right? Fair. And in due consideration for the use of name and our ability to use it in all perpetuity. Yeah, right? That's a good contest, yes. Speaking of contests, I have to give a shout out to Cole Miles, who became a member of

[10:33] Heritage Radio, I have through cooking issues. So thanks, Co. Nice. Nice. Is he the winner of that other contest, it's over? Yeah, that's the membership drive. Is he coming in from Houston? I don't think so, but if he ever gets here, he says he'll come. He's an interesting dude. I don't know how much he wants me to tell you about himself on the air, but I met him at

[10:51] a, what's it called? What do we call those things? Sous vide, sous vide, low temperature class, and interesting dude. Uh, interesting history. Okay, so thank you and congratulations for winning. Any questions on the torture attachment? I heard, Joel? No, I mean, that sounds actually awesome because I've had the problem of obviously use the torch because

[11:09] you want some quick searing on the outside of something. It just tastes gross. Yeah, it's gross. This one. Okay, so here's the deal, right? The main problem is, is that when you're, when, when, the reason I 1st started working on this is that, is, is, I'm interested in finishing low temperature meats. And a regular salamander, right? It doesn't have the, doesn't have the, whatever the polite, it doesn't have the oomph. you go. That a polite way, say it. doesn't have the oomph. There's a call, Dave, if you want to. Oh, yeah, what I was saying. To finish a low temperature meat. And so, uh, this does because you can get extremely close to the service of the meat, or you can pull back with almost no burn. But then it has a lot of ancillary things. Like if you roast a chicken and, uh, you know, and it's not quite done at certain points, you can hit it without it getting on that. Yeah, yeah. Or like, you know, if you're doing burgers and you don't want to you don't want to steam your burger, you can just throw the cheese on top and then melt the cheese out directly with this thing almost instantly without having to like either throw it in a salamander

[11:59] or or cover it so that this burger is steaming. you know, useful, like, uh, to help to finish off little parts of the area of a grill when you're not working right.

[12:07] stuff. It's just useful to have around. It pops off and on your torch. anyway, we're looking forward to it. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Dave, Chris from Durham, North Carolina. How are you going? Going all right, going all right. How it doing down there in Durham? Uh, it's pretty rainy, so not great, but uh, pretty decent food scene down here. All am I coming from New York and we can get some pretty good heats down here. Nice. Yeah. Got a quick question for you about, um, polypheno oxidates is an avocado. Yes, problematic, right? Yeah, is there any way to turn that, like, kill them in a circulator without changing the flesh? That's a great question. I was looking at the range. It's like 25 to 35 C is, I think, their optimal thing, but I'm trying to do um, like an avocado roulade without using any kind of acid.

[12:51] Right. Uh, I seem to remember somebody testing this out. I've never actually tested it myself. I seem to remember somebody. I mean, obviously the trick is to cook it to a temperature that inactivates the enzymes without rupturing the cells. And I would guess that you'd want to do something in the

[13:11] mid to high 50s. Sure. You know what I mean? Maybe like 60 should wipe it out, right? Don't you think? 140? 60? I assume so, yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't know that you're going to have that much change at 60. I mean, I don't know what's going to happen to the other products of respiration in the avocado at that time. But that's a great. I mean, I would give it a shot and see what happens. Just don't peel an avoc. don't vacuum it because you'll smash it. You know what I mean? Yeah, I would just throw avocados into 60 degree water or even 65 I would try. Because I think, uh, Bruno Gousseau, he was trying to inactivate the enzymes in papaya without, without doing anything, uh, to the

[13:52] flesh, and uh, Nils and I tried it, and we hated it because it intensified that diaper smell that papayas have up here, that nasty baby diaper smell that papayas have. that I think they have, but for some reason they don't have in South America, which is why I guess they like them in South America. And have you have anyone here met an American that loves papayas? I hate papayas. Yeah, see? So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's because we get crappy ones. In South America, they're legit. Anyway. So, uh, Gousseau, I think, was using 65 degrees, so you might want to try that for, but then the question is, you should use uh, sous vide, um, whatever

[14:24] that, whatever the polyscience sous vide application is for the uh, iPad, just to calculate your time temperature ratios. Now, remember, though, you don't need it to get all the way to the seed. So, you know, take the take the numbers with a grain of salt, right? Because you're only really penetrating the 1st however much that is inch, you know, depending on what kind of avocado. assuming you're using haas or equivalent, not like the domestic pitch. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know how long it's going to take to penetrate,

[14:51] but, you know, the sous vide tool. What the hell is that thing called against CV Toolbox? Dash, dash. There you go. Use that to calculate what your what your time is. And if you try it, please tell us what happens so that we know. Yeah, I would love to test it out. It's been a problem for a while and, you know, lime goes great with avocado, but you don't always want to use it. Right. I guess that's true. I guess you don't always want lime, although a lot of times I love myself the lime. But it's an excellent problem. And like, you try it out, and if I can think about it, I mean, I like we swim in avocados in my neighborhood. They're basically free. It's like, it's like cheaper to use avocados and packing peanuts in the lower east side in some places when you buy them,

[15:30] but, uh, but try to give it a shot and if I can remember to do it, I'll try to give it a shot and see what happens. Okay, cool. One more quick question about Dragon's Beard video you did? Whenever I do it, it just sets up like a rock. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. What do you mean, like a rock? Like how much like a rock, like a soft rock or like a hard rock? You can't put a dent into it. Yeah, even when I microwave it, which you mentioned that video. I can't get my finger through it. I don't know what the, if I'm cooking it too long. It a little bit more yellow than yours, and I don't know if it's just going too high,

[15:59] but I mean, my probe says it's going to 133. I think is what you said. Well, I think that's the that's the finish, but I think I pull it at like 131 or 132. Go back and look at the, go back and look at the thing again. and you're adding the corn syrup. Yeah. Hmm. I mean, just try cooking it to like a degree or 2 lower. So you see what's going on. It's not crystallizing though, right? It's still staying clear. No, it's not crystallizing. Yeah, so, I mean, it's best not to have to nuke it because if you have to nuke it. His Dragon's beer candy, for those of you that don't know what the heck we're talking about, is a candy where you cook sugar to a particular point. My memory is that the finished temperature should be at 133 with a little bit of a little bit of corn syrup added to prevent crystallization. And, um, what you do is it has to be this exact texture that it's a solid but still bendable, uh, when it when it cools down and you form it into a donut and then you stretch it and all the time, putting it through, uh, cornstarch, or a mixture of, uh, cornstarch and cocoa or a mixture of cornstarch and whatever other powdered flavors you

[17:04] want, and folding it and stretching it, folding it and stretching it, until you stretch it into the into the width of cotton candy. It becomes like cotton candy. called dragon's beard in China in other places like Iran. It has other names like, I think they call it peck mesh. No, Peckmesh is the other thing. What's it called? anyway. So I forget. Peck Mesh is the grape molasses, right? I can't remember what it's called. Anyway, it's called something. So a lot of cultures have this thing. And then, but the issue is, is if it's too soft, it'll just blast apart on you. And if it's too hard, you can soften it in the nuke, but when

[17:40] if you're not extremely quick, It'll chill and when it chills, it hardens and then it'll rupture. Sometimes explosive leads. It's quite amusing to watch me getting covered in things and yelling and screaming and cursing when that happens. But I would try just going a degree or 2 lower and then letting

[17:54] it like letting the thing, the temperature rise as it comes off the thing. Are you not altering the batch size, are you? I cut it in half once and then I tried to do the form because it's just me in my apartment. I don't need, you know? 2 pounds of candy. I've never tried it with a smaller batch size, and it might be that the batch size, you're getting a faster rise in temperature with a smaller batch size. The larger batch size was just as hard as the small one. The 1st time I did it, I had it in half, and it got up to temp in like 17 minutes, and maybe that was the issue. Yeah. Yeah. But I'll give another shot and let you guys know how it goes, along with that avocado thing. All right, cool. Thanks brother. All right, thanks. Give up the great work on the show. Thank you very much. All right. Anna writes in. And by the way, Anna, busted Nastasia. Female listener, totally busted. Wait, so wait, she's not a woman now? She's not a woman because she's married? What the hell is that? for Jax. That was why she didn't, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, but Nastasia's point was that we have absolutely no female

[18:53] listeners and not only a female listener, but one from Budapest. So. Well, now my point is we have no single female listeners. Or none that are interested in me. Right. Right, right. Okay. So anyway, further trials with Dulce de Leche, here we go. Anna writes in. I just wanted to give you a shout out that I've listened to all your episodes and currently up to date with the podcast. Thank you. You guys make my baking sessions at home even more entertaining, and I have learnt a great deal from you, which for which I'm very thankful. If you are still not tired of my Dulce de Leche questions, there really can't be enough Dulce de Leche questions, right? I mean, it's a good product. The banging you might hear is from the lunatics upstairs, I guess they're like, they're beating a tree to death. There's trees growing on top of us, and I think they're beating a tree to death. They're building a treehouse. Oh, really? Well, in order to build a treehouse, you have to be treated there. Okay. So, uh, those situlation. Dulce de Leche. Here's a new one. How do I prevent the sugar in Dulce de leche from recrystallizing? The cream turned out beautiful the way you told me, it would, but after a week or

[19:53] two, it started having little sugar crystals in it, and we would like to give it homemade dulce de leche to our guests at our

[19:58] wedding, and it's not married yet. Not married yet. At the wedding. Yeah. And it would be nice to give them something that stays smooth. Should I put golden syrup in it? Thank you very much in advance. Hi from Budapest, Adam. Okay, it's not sugar per se. It's not table sugar. That's causing the graininess in your dulcity de leche. It is lactose. And what happens is, is that when you heat the, and concentrate

[20:22] the, the milk making the dulce de leche, you all of a sudden put the lactose in a position that it is

[20:28] super saturated once it cools. And so over time, lactose will acrystallize and then

[20:35] be form larger and larger crystals, agglomerate and tell the lactose crystals get to a point where it tastes sandy in your mouth, at which

[20:42] point very difficult to get rid of them. Now, you should be able to reheat your dual state

[20:49] leche in like a water bath all the way up. You have to go above 93, I think, or above, you know,

[20:55] 85, 93 to get it to go redissolve again. I don't know how long you have to keep it there. But that's not going to solve your problem because what you want to do is give it as a gift and then and then have it stay good for a long period of time. So, you know, that's probably not going to help you. The reheating it. Okay. Now, the way that they do it, the way they do it in condensed milk, right? If you're, I know you're not making dulce de leche from condensed milk because you're doing it the old-fashioned

[21:19] way. But the way that they make sweetened condensed milk, not have this problem, is they add miniature lactose, very, very fine lactose seed crystals as it's cooling down.

[21:30] And by doing that, they seed it with such small crystals that the crystals are small enough that you don't

[21:35] sense them in your in your on your tongue. Okay? Also not an option for you. Although it might be possible to add a small amount of sweetened condensed milk to the

[21:44] dulce de leche as it cools down to seed it with the small crystals. I don't know how much you'd need to add, and you'd want to add them when the stuff is around 35 Celsius, a place where it's still liquid enough to move around. But that, you know, it's not hot enough that it's going to dissolve the sea crystals. Okay. Also, this is probably not going to work out for you. There are various stirring regiments and cooling regiments, but I couldn't find one that reliably worked,

[22:10] right? So here's down to my last one. See what you think about this. You can buy lactase. Lactase is the enzyme that breaks down lactose into its 2 constituent

[22:20] sugars, okay? If you add lactase to the milk, which you can, I think, get at pharmacies, right? Because people who are lactose intolerant can buy lactase and put, or you can just buy lactose free milk, but you know, you can do it yourself because you might have a milk that you like. right? You add the lactose to it. The lactose will break up, the lactose will break up the lactose, but, right? See, lactose is necessary in the thing in the mix because it's a reducing sugar, right? So it's reduced, so straight sucrose. I don't think inverts enough into the dulce de leche to provide a reducing

[22:54] sugar such that it's going to get adequate browning. So some people use glucose. They add glucose, which speeds up the browning, sometimes too much, which is why you have to limit the amount of glucose you add. But if you break down the lactose, It'll still have its reducing sugars when you break it down. And according to advanced dairy chemistry, volume three, lactose water, salt, and minor constituents, if you

[23:16] add, you know, lactase and convert a mere 30 or 40% of the lactose in the milk, then that's enough to prevent recrystallization of the lactose as it

[23:25] cools down. So go buy that, add it to the milk, let it sit around for a day, then make your dual state of

[23:31] late shade, stuff should not crystallize, although please run a test before your wedding because I do not want to ruin your wedding gifts out to your people. Another interesting thing. I read about in that book is that I'd always assumed that the baking soda that people add to the

[23:45] dulce de leche was there to enhance the Mayard reactions by making the product more basic, but it also turns

[23:52] out that it has another purpose. Now just read it directly from advanced dairy chemistry. Uh, Glue, uh, where is it? Um, blah, blah, blah, blah, bum, bum, bum. The mixture of milk and sugars is 1st neutralized with calcium hydroxide or sodium bicarbonate. So they're using baking soda or calcium oxide. To obtain a pH of 7.0 or a typritable acidity equivalent to 2 to 10 milligrams of lactic acid, per blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Neutralization avoids the destabilization of casing my cells as a consequence of the decrease in pH during evaporation,

[24:22] which in turn is due to the concentration of calcium phosphate, the formation of organic

[24:26] acids from lactose degradation and the hydrolysis of phosphoric acids of caseines. So, there's actually acid being formed in the milk as it is being boiled down, which can lead to the destabilization of

[24:36] casing my cells. Did not know that. Didn't have another color, Dave. Color! You on the air. Hello? Hi. Hi. I'm calling a slightly strange question. I want to know about the process that you think of emulsifying beef tallow, just straight up, you know, if you were trying to make a foam or a froth,

[24:54] say, could you like run it through an ISI container or use a hand

[24:59] blender, and then once you did that, if you could do that, what would you stabilize it with?

[25:03] I mean, without, uh, well, straight beef fat. Huh. So, I mean, you're gonna want to add, if you're gonna add an emulsifier to aerate the beef fat, you're gonna want to add something that is, um, uh, lipophilic, right? So you're gonna, you're gonna add, uh, probably, um, mono and diglycerides or

[25:24] lessithin, right? But I've never, like, you'd have to somehow aerate it and keep the aeration stable so that you

[25:32] could chill it, right? Yeah, and that's that's where I'm sort of scratching my head. Like, you can sort of maybe get it to, you know, be like a delicate snowflake for a few minutes, but how do you get it to stay that way?

[25:43] Hmm. Aerated fat. Aerated straight fat, not like airy. I mean, it'd be easy if you emulsify the stuff into a water base, right? And then made a fake cream and then kind of whipped that up like, like,

[25:58] koo whip, right? Yeah of course. Like, cool it, but you want straight fat. Straight fat. Uh, well, let me see. Chocolate is mostly straight fat, and I kind of remember what they use to emulsify chocolate when they make the aerated chocolate stuff. Oh that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, of course, there is other there's solids in it, but there's no other liquids in chocolate, right? Right. So, and cocoa butter is a little... I mean, it's firmer, obviously firmer than beef fat, but you can set the sucker up. I mean, if you were to whip air into it, right? Then wait until it's almost kind of, until it started to set up. And you might need to add an

[26:35] emulsifier like mono-deglas rides are like less than thin or something. Less than might work because that's what they have in chocolate. They don't put mono glycerides in chocolate. And then put it in a vacuum machine, suck a vacuum on it. So it air rates the same way that like Wiley's air rated fois works or, you know... Yeah, okay. Heston's aerated chocolate or anyone of these things. And then, um, you know, put that sucker in ice water uh, to set it. You might be able to get it to, you might be able to get it to work. That's cool. I will screw around with it and see what I can get it to land on. Thanks for the ideas. Hey, no problem. If anyone else out there has an idea, tweet it on an end and we'll tweet it back out. Great. Thanks so much. Thank you. Oh, thanks. Paul Peterson wrote in about the dairy free ice cream we talked about last week. Just listen to last week's podcast and I have a thought about non-dairy ice cream. I don't have my full recipe with me at the moment, but I make mine using soy creamer. Heated low on a burner to incorporate sugar, and often other flavors, E.G. mint, and then I cool it in the fridge

[27:28] overnight, along with a can of 2 coconut milk. The next day, I scoop the solid fat off the top, blend it with the rest of the base, and then freeze it as indicated. The recipe has surprised many people when they're told it's dairy free, and it's nearly impossible to taste the coconut flavor, Paul Peterson. And in addition, uh, Ellie Nasser wrote in, uh, Dave Ari, uh, regarding dairy free gelato, modernist cuisine

[27:47] home makes awesome flavors using nut butter, juice, oil, and cornstarch. And remember Nils and I, remember that one we used to make styles, like years ago, the pistachio. And then Monter's cuisine made the same one, and then we were demoing in the same, like, but different. sort of. Yeah, but the trick with nut butters. If you're going to use nut butter in a non-dairy ice cream, sucker has to be smooth. smooth, which is why, you know, if you're going to use commercial stuff, a lot of the natural products,

[28:10] like they're kind of grainy, whereas, you know, you know, our good, our good buddies at Jiffy and Skip know how to grind those peanuts until there's some tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny particles so that you can't taste them.

[28:21] And when we were using nut butters to make him back at the FCI, uh, you know, we were, we were, we were 1st robo cooing them, then

[28:30] vita prepping them, then putting them in a Santa wet grinder to reduce the particle size down to, you know, almost

[28:35] nothing, and then spinning them in a centrifuge to further get the, the, the larger particles to settle out so that we had a super creamy thing. So we got a super creamy result. Your results may vary. Okay. Should we take a quick break? Yeah. Okay, coming back after our 1st commercial break, cooking issues. Today's program has been brought to you by Rolling Press. Rolling Press is a family-run commercial offset print house that brings together environmentally friendly methods, ethical practices, and personalized service, founded in 1998 by Eugene Lee and his father,

[29:11] Cam Lee. Rolling Press represents the harmony of traditional craftsmanship and green technology. Rolling press prints using soy and vegetable inks, uses a variety of certified and recycled papers, and they incorporate a chemical free production process.

[29:25] For more information, visit rollingpress.com.

[30:28] This song is for Harold McGee. You wrote one of my favorite books called On Food and Cooking. You ever want cherry white, a soufflé, cool rice. It's about gas extension, and what are that big blood? Is it that cool? You wanna know how I knew? I just read the wrong food cooking. The section on egg foams. Yeah, food science rules. Kids nowadays, race. And I answer, he sings a day. He's got big ways. They were the sweater vests, iconic health. Nicky.

[31:24] 'Cause help McGee. Yeah, he's better than you and just like me. You wanna be. A part of his good science crew. At least I do. Maybe not you, but isn't it obvious? Them Crazy Bell Heralds, and he's all shined, for my science fell, and I can't wait until the day that we

[31:54] meet yet, because I'll know, we'll be the best of friends. We'll talk about fired reactions, eh?

[32:20] Yo!

[33:03] My favorite line, Harold McGee, he's better than you. Well, that wasn't direct. No, in general. This in general. I like that. I like that. I just like to mention, I just played that song for a celebrity from Bullbrook Empire who's sitting at that table over there. who? watched me. There's a person from Boardwalk Empire? Yeah, the guy with killed off on like the 2nd season. I haven't watched it yet. Oh, whatever. Okay. Well, thank you. We will call Harold McGee and make sure he listens to that. I wouldn't, if I had known, I could have called him beforehand and had him listen. Well, I don't know what he's doing. He's probably in some other country right now. Who knows? Yeah, he's always flying around the world being herald with his fabulousness as my reactions. J. Matthew Miller writes in. By the way, JMath Miller, patent attorney, said so on his email. Hey there, cooking issues gang. The pumps for the New Orleans public water system. Lost power over the weekend because of a fire in the power generation facility. The loss of power caused a loss of pressure in the water system. As a result, they issued a boil water alert recommending that everyone bring water to a rolling boil for 60 seconds. Our work coffee machines, apparently heat water, at 180 degrees, which is then either kept in a thermal carafe or on a hot plate. So at temperature for at least a little while. It's 180 degrees Fahrenheit, 82.2 degrees C, hot enough for whatever might be lurking in that water, or is there really a need to bring it to 212 degrees? Thanks, love. show. Keep up the good work and can't wait to hear about the Kickstarter. Well, we already talked about the Kickstarter, but you are exactly right. Your coffee machine. here's the thing, right? You got 2 problems here. Water might taste like dirt. right? Might be crap. I mean, like, I don't just mean literally crap. Like the water might taste bad. Now, that's not going to get solved by the boiling, right? Although I guess you could flock stuff out by boiling it, right? Anyway. But, um, Here's the thing. You don't need to heat it up to the boil. In fact, I found some very interesting articles on water pasteurization in places like Africa. Now, in places that don't have safe water or if there's an epidemic going around and they issue a water boiling thing, the problem is it takes a lot of resources to bring actual water to the boil.

[35:14] It takes a lot fewer resources in terms of wood to burn fuel to

[35:18] use, whatever, to bring water up to a lower temperature. So there's a bunch of articles out there that show that in fact, heating to 65 degrees Celsius is adequate, you know, assuming that everything is heated through to 65 degrees

[35:32] Celsius, is adequate to assure that you pasteurize your

[35:37] water, such that it's safe to drink. I mean, assuming it doesn't have some inorganic crap in it that's, you know, like poison. If it's got poison in it, then boiling's not going to help it anyway. poison. Uh, so, uh, what's really cool is these guys have developed these, and if you go to, I think it's like solarcooking.com or something like that. These guys have developed this really cool system for use in places without power, where you make a

[35:59] trough, and the sun is heating the water, and they have a little vial of a little air filled vial that has a solidified soy protein, not soy

[36:08] protein. soy fat in it. The soy fat melts at exactly 154 degrees Fahrenheit, and it's in the top of this vial that's that's weighted down, but it's like floating in the

[36:17] water, and you and it's down at the bottom, which is the coldest part of the water. And if you look at it and the fats run to the bottom of the tube. It means it's melted and your whole thing came to temperature. So it's a quick verification that your that your stuff has worked and then you just remelt the fat, invert it and it's ready to go again. So yes, it's something I didn't know about. Uh, this uh, whole uh, solar solar pasteurization of water in places, but there you have it, 65. So 65 being below 82. 82 should be good. Right? Those are kind of good question. Okay. At Barriatua writes in. Are there any can't miss technical food events in New York City at the week of March 26th? Nastasia, are there any technical food events in the week of March 26th? You're doing something at the Boule, uh, kitchen, test kitchen. Yeah, but that's just Bruno Gouseau is coming in and doing a thing and then we're just going to like chill out for him, right? They're teaching a class? Well, there you have it. A chance to see the great Bruno Gouseau at David Boule's Test Kitchen. There might still be space available. I have no idea. We're supposed to go in and just chill out from a little bit, right? They should go to www.l-E-C-R-E-A dot com. Wow, I just couldn't pay attention to what you're saying. Say that again. Hey, like me. Are you on Zampos? Yeah, yeah. I am. L-E-C-R-E-A dot com. Oh, Krea. Look, yeah, Krea is Bruno Gusteau's school. Anyway, okay, okay. Hey guys, I gotta jump in. March 27th, Heritage Radio Network, 2nd salon party, which will be on the hunt for the city's best vodka cocktail. Maybe not the most tech event, but still pretty cool. I mean, we make a pretty good vodka tail. We're trying to get involved. Okay, okay. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. At cut Hancock, and there's really, there's other ways to read that, which are not as family friendly. But at Cut Hancock writes in. What is the name of the Apple Preserve in England? I traveling to London in 2 weeks and was hoping to visit. Thanks. Oh, there's not going to be much there now, I think, on the trees, figured out. But it is the Brogdale, the Brogdale. Uh, and it's it's, it's in Kent uh, in a town called Favisham. It's called the Brogdale. Nastasia been there Nastasia and I've been there now a couple times. Or no, you went once and I went once with McGee. Okay. All right. Let me see. do that one last because I'm going to scream about it for a long time. Okay. David Wilkie writes in from Huntington Beach, California. Where is that, St us? On the beach. Duh. Is it north or south? South. Okay. Over where you're from? Okay. About eggs. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, at all. I recently read HCP, blah, blah, blah, about how to make a naked egg. It deserves how to make a naked egg. You can find it. I know it's possible to dissolve the shell off a raw egg using vinegar, which leaves the raw egg intact in a semi-permeable membrane. I also know that this ruins the flavor of the egg completely. I popped one open and fried it up post-dissolve. It was awful. Solid vinegar in the shape of a fried egg. Not just vinegar, though. There is also a lot of dissolved calcium in there and the calcium's gross because if you've ever eaten an eggshell, eggshells,

[39:18] then not sub bueno. You know what I mean? And so like that calcium, what you're doing with the vinegar is you're taking the calcium carbonate that's in the shell and dissolving

[39:25] it into solution. So you're probably also getting a nasty calcium taste on top of the vinegar taste. So it's probably a double whammy of nastiness. Anyway, whatever. I also now know you can dehydrate a dechelled egg by soaking it. By the way, here's what doesn't work. You cannot re-eg it. You can't, like, take the egg after you've dissolved the shell and then put it in calcium hydroxide and have it reincorporate into a

[39:45] shell. A couple people have said that you can. And I tried it. I've tried it like 5 different times. You can't do it anyway. Uh, I don't know. Like, you know, someone's like, well, I'm going to like take an egg, like reform into a new shape, reharden the shell. Like, you know how this, you know, like the Japanese square egg makers? Yeah, which but they, you know, they make squared eggs out of shelled eggs, not out of eggs in the shell. So anyway, whatever. But someone said, can you do it? So I was like, no, no, no, I'll try it back when I had more time to try things and it doesn't work. It doesn't work. Okay. Back to Dave's questions. I also know that you can dehydrate a dechelled egg by soaking it in corn syrup. I'm not confident this will make it taste any better, if not somehow worse. I haven't tried it yet. What got me excited is learning that if you deshell a raw egg and vinegar. Then dehydrate it. You can rehydrate it in water. If the raw egg absorb the flavor of vinegar, I'm thinking it also absorb some of the flavors present in the liquid to rehydrate it. So why not deshell and dehydrate a raw egg, then rehydrate it with chicken stock or any other flavor

[40:40] of a liquid, that's just the 1st one I thought of. It seems you would be, uh, you'd be able to get a unique intensity of flavor that would be much different from pickled eggs or tea eggs, and the eggs still being raw, allows it to be used in other preparations and form, forms. I'm imagining preparations like flavor infused fried eggs, for example. Uh, so the 1st issue I'm having is dissolving the shell without ruining the flavor. And then after that, how else could you go about dehydrating it without corn syrup, will corn syrup, osmosis harm the flavor? Is there a better method, maybe storing with desiccant packs, bubble, blah. Well, no, I don't think Desic and packs are going to work. You probably going to want to use osmosis. Otherwise, you're going to have otherwise, you're going to have some problems. The issue is, look, the real question is, what we don't know is what can make, what I don't know, I should say, you might know, is what can go

[41:21] through, the key thing is semi-permeable. So the question is, what can go through and what can't? Clearly, if the inside of your thing tasted like vinegar, then vinegar can make it through the membrane,

[41:31] right? Clearly water can make it through the membrane. That's why osmosis is working. Uh, Can protein make it through the membrane? I would guess not. So, you know, can other peptides make it through the membrane. I don't know. So the question is which flavors are going to be able to transfer through. Like, can you get sugars through? Can you get, I mean, clearly vinegar you can get through. So it's a question of what can go through and what can't, as a question of what you can do for flavoring it. But it sounds interesting. I have to give it kind of more thought rather than just a morning thinking about it. This is the kind of thing that, you know, as Joel is saying, McGee has probably thought of once or twice. Probably, he's thought of everything. He, well, yeah, he's, he does think about it, because he just sits around thinking and he doesn't tell you about it until he's pretty sure he's right. That's the thing about McGee. He doesn't just he doesn't just go spouting off. Uh, so, um, I wouldn't think Desican packets would work because what you want to do, you don't want to have a case hardening situation, which you would probably get in the membrane, you probably turn it into a thing.

[42:30] Also, I would go with a very high acid vinegar so that you

[42:35] could dissolve the shell extremely quickly and not wait for all the acid to

[42:38] diffuse through the membrane if you want to get less in. So go buy, if you go to Russian stores, you can buy 10% vinegar, which is pretty hardcore. I have some. Remember Styles? We went to go get Kavas and I bought all that 10% vinegar. 10% vinegar, badass. And then you could probably also neutralize the vinegar somewhat, although that will still leave some acetic taste if you've ever

[42:56] tasted acetates, different acetates, you know, vinegar salts. Anyway. but give that a shot. Sorry, I do not have more good information with that. Okay. And wait, we actually have a little bit of time. I sped through that so fast. By the way, Jason Besant wrote into you, Nastasia. Just checking, is this the correct email address to send a question, and clearly, since I'm reading it, it is. Would love to call, but I live in Tasmania. And then in Perez, Australia. Like, really, you're calling out the Australia? not like Tasman Pride that you're just like, I'm from Tasmania. Like, we don't know where that is. You gotta remember, everyone in the United States grew up with the Tasmanian devil. We all know where Tasmania is. Like, ask us any other like country or place. We have no idea where the hell it is. But, like, everyone's like, Tasmania. I got to look up where that thing comes from. and they go look at them, right? pretty sure I don't know where Prague is. No, yeah, but Tasmania? Absolutely Yeah, hell yeah. As far as I'm concerned, this is the Tasmanian devil writing into cooking issues. Yeah, right? As far as you know, Tasmanian devils are like kind of awesome. Like, because, like, you've seen their mouths when they open their mouths. Oh, man, just Google the Tasmanian because Dax, my son, has done this many times. He's like, Tasmanian devils. He's like, who would win a Tasmanian devil or a Wolverine? I was like, that just doesn't come up. It just doesn't come up. You know? Uh, okay. Al Solstrom wrote in. Can one use, gentian, quinine, et cetera, as beer, as a beer bittering agents. Do different herbs produce noticeably different bitter flavors. Obviously, hot flavor slash aroma involves a lot that goes beyond that, but I'm curious about the differences in bitter

[44:38] compounds. Okay, look. Bitter, unlike acid. First, I'm not going to get into like what I believe in what I what I don't believe are the fact that I'm freaked out that different acids have different flavors, even though they're

[44:51] non-volatile and even though they don't all have bitter complements, right? I still don't fully understand why it doesn't malic acid taste different than citric acid. But to a 1st order approximation, sourness is a relatively simple flavor in that it activates one type of receptor

[45:07] only and your tongue. Ditto with sugar. Different sugars have different flavors because they have different onsets of sweetness and different aftertastes and different off

[45:16] notes, for instance. I hate Stevia. Can we buy, I hate stevia.com, or is that already taken? Does anyone like Stevia? No, this stuff sucks. Like, just, I'd rather have no sugar than have that Stevia crap. That stuff is ruined. And then they're like, well, I came up with a way that I can mask the awful taste of the Stevia. Me too. I don't use it. Sucks. It feels like I'm like I'm chewing on a soap bar. Yeah, it's awful. And, like, someone will hand it to you, and then, like, it leaves this poisonous aftertaste. It's horrible. The domain's available. Oh! Can we buy, I hate stevia.com? Jack, can you buy that? It's 15 bucks. Yeah, we will do it. Done. Boom. Anyone out there who wants it, right in, and we'll give you an email address

[45:59] at IHate Stevie.com. Okay. You're the other one that you want to buy. Which one? I hate which one? I hate that me. Oh, is that available? Everyone hates that. Oh, yeah, everyone hates dot me. That's available? Yeah, because they just opened the Montenegro. They just opened the Montenegro website. you know, domains.me. And so I was going to get everybody hates.me, and then I could be like, I'm Dave, and everybody hates.me. That'd be pretty awesome. You want to buy that one too, Jack, while we're at it? Indy Jesus. me also available. Oh, but he's the only one that can, what would his address be? me at indiejesus.me? Okay, back to the question. Back to the question. Stay on task. So, um, So here's the thing. Uh, couple of things with bitterness. So sweetness is like a similar receptor, sourness, ditto

[46:50] salt. Bitterness, there are many different bitter receptors on your tongue. So there's all these different umami, I guess also. 11 set of things, but bitterness has many different receptors. And so there are, consequently, very many different types of bitterness. In fact, I taste a lot of bitter things, but

[47:10] I am a very low taster for prop, which is what they use to determine whether, so depending on our genetics, you know, some of us will have either a very, very strong reaction to the chemical prop,

[47:23] who's, I can't remember what the name of the thing is, right? And those people, in general, are called super tasters. And it used to be thought. And by some people still is thought, that your ability to taste prop, correlated with the number of taste buds, and therefore how well you could taste other things. Professor Zucker. Columbia says that's a load of horse hockey, but whatever. know, nobody knows. So, uh, so prop, you can uh, totally lack the gene for tasting prop, and you're called a non-taster, or you could be a regular taster somewhere in between.

[47:56] You guys ever taken the prop test? Yeah, you put the strip on your thing. Some people will think it just tastes like paper and some people will be like, blah. and then some people will be somewhere in the middle. I can barely, if at all, taste it, right? But other bitter compounds I'm extremely sensitive to. So, uh, and it just is this one category of bitter receptors that, you know, I'm deficient in

[48:15] Stasi, what's your stood? you like? I don't remember. You don't remember? Anywho, so the point is, is that bitterness can be very different depending on your doing, what you're doing. But it's like, you know, quinine, super freaking bitter. You know what I mean? So you can use it, but it's not going to be the same bitterness that you get in beard. Now. Bitter and and you can get many beers. There's the old form of beer, uh, was called uh, one of the old forms was called uh, Grewit, uh, and it's uh, herbed beer without hops. Remember, hops, although in use for a long time in beer in Germany and in that

[48:48] area, didn't spread throughout the rest of Europe until relatively late, like in the

[48:54] 14, 1500s, right? and didn't become dominant until like around that time, I think, 14, 15, maybe even a little bit later in every area. And so some people have even tried to bring back beer styles that don't have any hobbs in them. I mean, most notable were the ones I used to get. There's a Scottish beer company and I have it somewhere in this massive letters that I have in my thing. But I've tried their beer. They have a heather beer. They have a kelp beer. I like the header beer, not the, and a pine beer. And the pine beer, I actually really liked, with spruce. But hops is not the only it's not the bitterness is not the only reason it's there. Also, it's there because hops acts as an antimicrobial, as a preservative in beer. So if you're going to have a hop free beer, you want to make sure that you're not

[49:42] going to have other things growing in it. Now, hops, the article to look at is, I have it

[49:48] here, written down for you, beer, spoilage, bacteria, and hop resistance. And you can get the whole thing on the internet. And it has a really interesting history of hops using and what it's doing. Hops destroys what are called gram positive bacteria. So bacteria, divide, one of the ways to divide bacteria, roughly, is into gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. And it was based on this guy, Graham, from Denmark, at least Danish people, Danes. No offense. Love Danes. Love Danes. Anyway, so he just developed this way of staining bacteria to look at them under the microscope and, you know,

[50:21] didn't really understand the significance of it. It turns out that it's actually quite significant not just to whether or not it stains a particular color, but to what the outside of the, like what the outside of the bacteria is, whether it has a,

[50:32] um, you know, an extra lipid layer on the outside of the bacteria. So it actually is a good way to determine like whole different sections of bacteria. Anyway, some grand-positive bacteria of interest are lactobacillus and

[50:46] petiococcus. And these bacteria are some of the most common spoilers bacteria in beer, giving it nasty ropey this, and kind of lactic off flavors, right? And hops nukes those things, right? Whereas gram negative things, like acetobactor, doesn't get as heavily affected. And right now, actually, it's weird. There's some, there's some lactic acid bacteria, they're becoming resistant to hops, and they're becoming a renewed interest. And when I was reading this, I learned, here's some other nasty ones. Here's some nasty things that aren't killed by hops. Ready for these? Pectinatis, which provides extensive turbidity and an offensive rotten egg smell, and my favorite

[51:26] megasphera. The production of hydrogen sulfide causes a fecal odor in beer. my favorite part of beer. My favorite is the fecal odor, which makes this bacteria one of the most feared organisms for brewers. Right? Good news is no kill you. None of this stuff will kill you. My brother's actually a brewer. Really? Yeah, he owns a brewery and it just started up called Thimble Island Brewery in Branford, Connecticut. Oh, yeah, good? Oh, Fimble Island. I never went out there. I hear it's nice out there though. Pimple Islands? I was actually on one of those tour boats when I was a kid and I was I was a 1st mate. Yeah? And then I got fired. For hopefully not for excessive Thimble Island beer drinker. No, no, no. I fell asleep and he ran over a buoy and he got mad. Yeah, well, there you have it. Yeah. Buoy. But anyway, yeah. So he hasn't run into a fecal smelling. problem in his beer, but I'm gonna make him aware of it. Well, why don't we ship them a sample of Megasferra back? He can mix it in. We can make some some strong some Thimble Island fecal beer. Do you think that would sell in Brooklyn? Yeah, like some people would catch onto. I guarantee it would sell out here somewhere. All you got to do is tell them that it makes them more hip. They could put on their Greto headphones and drink their fecal beer and they'll love it. All right, which brings me to the last thing before we have to leave. No, okay, I love you, Brooklyn. Come on. Okay, which brings me to my last thing. Uh, Miller High Life, the champagne of beers, right? We're all familiar with the Miller High Life, correct? So Miller High Life, we serve it in the bar in the little miniature pony bottles, which these tiny bottles as a garnish. If the beer is a garnish to a salty drink, we make called the corsair. The corsair, we we, uh, we spin, clarify, we blend and spin clarified lemons, not to make them 100% clear, but just to make them thinner, so that they work in a shake and drink and to get rid of a lot of the albedo, which we melt with, uh,

[53:07] pectanex ultra SPO. So preserved lemon, Moroccan style, hence corsair, you know, Moroccan pirates, and lime juice, and tequila, and makes a super salty drink that I like. And then we serve it with this little like pony of Miller High Life as the garnish. Now here's the thing. How is it for all, because everyone knows who thinks about beer, that hops when hop compounds, right? Which is humulones get decomposed in the work boiling to isohumulones, which are the actual

[53:40] bidding bittering agents that are soluble in water. So it's isohumulones that are there. ISO alpha acids as they're known. And these suckers in the presence of ultraviolet light, right? breakdown and form skunky components by scavenging sulfur in

[53:56] it. And a really good, uh, really good, um, treatment of it that I thought was very readable and seemed accurate from what I can remember and what I

[54:03] know, is light strike in uh, in advanced, a light strike, advanced brewing uh, by Chris Bible. The guy's name's Chris Bible. How could you forget it? But he has a little web article that's really nice on it where he actually tells you what the compounds are that are being broken apart in a very readable way that I thought was very good.

[54:19] So go check it out for stuff on life strike. But here is the interesting part. Miller High Life comes in a clear bottle and does not get skunked. How do you do it? Yeah, right. Neither did I. They use these hop acid extracts that have been dorked with so that they don't skunk out anymore.

[54:39] And on the way out, I'm just gonna read you what they do. Under Chris Bible section, another approach at protecting beer from light strike. Apart from storing beer and lightproof containers, which is duh, the right way to do it, except for the fact that Miller

[54:52] High Life's bottle is so awesome that you don't want to mess with Miller High Life just to keep the beer good, right? kidding. Uh, but the uh, kidding. So, apart from storing beer and lightproof containers, the photo sensitivity of beer can be reduced by chemically altering the

[55:06] isoalpha acid so that the chemical precursor to the photochemical reaction responsible for producing

[55:11] lightstruck, a.k.a. skunked flavor is not present within the beer. Isoalpha acids can be converted to reduced isoalpha acids by hydrogenation or by reaction with sodium borohydride. Three major types of reduced iso acids can be produced, dihydro, tetrahydro, and hexahydro. Interestingly, I don't have time to read the whole thingamajig, but interestingly, they still break apart when they're hit by light, but the stuff that's broken apart doesn't form the nasty

[55:34] skunkiness. And this is how Miller High Life, the champagne of beers, can maintain the clarity and beauty of its pony sized bottles without having the skunk flavor. Thank you, Joe. Till next week. cooking issue.

[55:53] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.

[56:20] Thanks for listening.