[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out chefsteps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at chefsteps.com. You are listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.org, a nonprofit member supported radio

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[0:54] Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Damo, your host of Quick Eaters coming to delay from Aberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage

[1:01] Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joining the studio today with us, Dr. Hammer Lopez, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How you doing, guys? Good, man. I had to switch up the theme music this week. Yeah, I noticed that. But, like, it's like, you know, people, they not only does Nastasia like to keep me on her toes, but Jack and Joe

[1:19] in the engineering both like to keep me on my toes because, yeah, you're ready for one, you get the other. That's how life goes, call in your questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Before I get started, you know, in the audience, you probably won't care, but here in the studio, you'll enjoy this. So guess why I was late today. I was actually Slade to be on time today. Guess. Well, it wasn't the train because you rode a bike. That's right. don't know. Bike ticket. Oh, man, really? Yeah, yeah. bike ticket. What? Well, I was trying to, so believe this or not, which you probably won't. Like, I normally take a route that the, but the bike, the bike program on a computer tells me to go from my house to the studio, and there's one really unsafe intersection, so they didn't attempt to go around, not use that

[2:02] intersection. I went down another place and went down like for like half a block, which is my maximum. No, Brooklyn, a one way street, and the cops were like, woo! And hit me with, and they're getting smarter because they no longer hand out motor vehicle tickets to bikes, which is what they used to

[2:20] do, so any biker could just go to court and say, Yo, Yana, I was on a bike. A bike is not a motor vehicle. Sorry. And then like, you know what I mean? And that was it. But they have a new kind of summons, but here's where they get you. I can't pay by mail. I have to physically go to court. Well, you can go online and plead not guilty, right? No, no. What? This is new kind of ticket. They're trying to shaft bikers into actually having to go to court like none of us work or anything. Hey, look, I was breaking the traffic regulations like, great. Although it's a little bit of an insult to have a ticket for the privilege of riding these Brooklyn Rhodes, as Neil Diamond would say, which, by the way, much as I don't hate

[3:00] Brooklyn the way Nastasia hates, I have, I think Brooklyn's fine. The worst roads that I have seen on the

[3:07] east coast of the United States. You agree with me, Jack? Joe? Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, I mean, especially in the bike lane where we're forced to drive. It's like, imagine if amusement park rides weren't fun. Imagine, like, the biggest moguls you've ever seen skiing, and those are that is Bushwick, people. That's what that's what it's like. I drive a car and I basically have to get new breaks every like, you know, six, 7 months or something. Yeah, yeah. And all the cars trying to avoid the potholes and trying not to bottom and scrape theirself out. Nothing more fun for them than to run into a biker who's trying to go next to them, you know, in their in their normal spot. You know what I'm saying? So I'm proud to have my money, my ticket, penalty money, go towards supporting the awesome roads of Brooklyn. All right, let's start off with some, hey, look, my fault, though, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, all right. And my usual trick of just, you know, being extremely honest about what I was doing and nicely, the officers didn't work on this one. These guys are there to hand out fregan tapegets. They're on an anti-bike. The guy literally said, if you want to break the law, get off the bike and walk across. I wouldn't have given you the ticket. I'm like, what? What? Okay. Okay. This is not a show about biking. Okay. Here are some questions in from before. Tom Fisher wrote in last week. I tried making sous vide creme anglaise using this method on your site. That would be cookingissues.com. Everything went fine until I tried to bag the mixture. It seems like the blending incorporated far too much air into the mix. And the 1st time I tried to bag the mix, it quickly doubled in volume. I made a huge mess before I could go on, let me just tell you what the procedure is, right? So people know what the hell I'm talking about. So when we make, you know, when you make your normal creme anglaise, you know, you're careful, you stir it, you don't get me air into it, you temper the

[4:49] egg, you go, blah, blah, blah. When you're making it, uh, sous vide, uh, or low temp, what you do

[4:54] is you, you throw, I'll give you my recipe, you throw 10 egg yolks into a blender, you throw 170 grams of sugar in there, a little bit

[5:02] of salt, whatever flavorings you might want to add. You don't have to add to things like vanilla later because they're going to be in a bag and they won't vitalize off. Then you're gonna add 500 mils of uh, milk and 500 mils of uh, heavy cream. And actually, what I do is I add the milk. I don't add the cream in the blender step. I had the milk, turn on the blender on high, blends it. It does aerate it, which is the source of the, one of the sources of the problem with Tom's anglaise mixture here. And but it also breaks up the alaza on the egg yolks so that you don't need to strain your

[5:36] creme anglaise after. The 2 big advantages of, well, the 3 big advantages. Well, some of the big advantages of doing creme anglaise, low temperature sous vide are, one, if you use a blender, you don't need to strain it because, one, there's

[5:50] no alaza in it. And two, when you're cooking low temp, you're never going to curdle it. So there's no little curdles of egg yolk that you need to strain out, right? So you get rid of that whole straining nonsense. That's one big advantage. Two, flavors are preserved very well in the bag and certain flavors like cinnamon. It's really easy to get that awesome kind of red hot cinnamon flavor. You like red hot rice sauce? Yeah, see? something she likes. See, I know the secret things that she likes, like red hots. So I could have won that pork chop, whatever it is we gave away. So anyway, so it gives you that red hot thing because the vacuum intensifies the extraction, flavor out of spices like that. Uh, cinnamon. And another advantage is extremely hygienic, right? Because you don't need to pour it into something and then cool it very quickly. You can just take the bag, put the bag in ice water, chill it down. And three, because you've killed all the vegetative cells in

[6:42] it, when the cooking, right, you haven't sterilized it, so it's not safe, you know, not refrigerated, but it lasts

[6:48] an extremely long time. So these are some of the benefits. However, so what I do is I blend the milk, the egg yolks, the sugar, the salt, and maybe the flavoring. Then I add the cream and just put the blender on low to stir it to combine because you don't want to froth it up too much because that's stuff you have to get rid of later. Now, to finish the rest of his question. So remember, he has Tom was having problems, it was blowing up and making a huge mess, which is true, right? Okay, after cleaning, sorry, Tom, that cleaning sucks. Cleaning creme anglaise, make sure out of the bottom of your vacuum machine sucks. really sucks. After cleaning, I moved the mix to a hotel pan and tried to de-erate it in the vacuum sealer. But even after many cycles, the mix still had a frothy, bubbly texture. It's true. I eventually bagged it in ziplocs and circulated the mix and it came out, fine, where did I go wrong? Thanks, Tom Fisher. Okay, here a couple of things. One, creme anglaise bubbles like a weasel, and there's just no way around that, right? If you are going to deer rate in a pan beforehand, which I don't, by the way, but if you are going to do it, you have to start with extremely thin mixtures in the

[7:45] hotel, when I say thin thickness, not like thin consistency. mixtures in the hotel pan, like a couple of milliliters and do it in 4 batches, then you can get a full rise, bubble pop, drop, and boil out of a

[7:56] creme anglaise in a vacuum machine. Not a heat boil. I don't want to hear anyone talk to me about heat boil. not heat boil. just a vacuum boil. And you can do it. However, what I like what I normally do is I remove all of the plastic thingamajig, like things that look like cutting boards, the

[8:12] space, or take them all out. Do not use a bagging attachment. This is worthless. In a normal, like, uh, like 10 or 12 inch wide vacuum bag, uh, I guess 10, I think 10. Only put half a liter of product into it, or, you know, like basically, if you make the liter batch with 10 egg yolks, 170 grams more than a liter, half in each bag,

[8:33] right? Put the bag over the edge of the vacuum machine and then cut a hole in between the seal bar and the edge of the machine to let the air come out.

[8:42] This way, you have the maximum expansion room in the bag before the mixture starts boiling out all over the vacuum machine.

[8:48] Gives you the maximum space for it to inflate. Right? Then drop the lid. Oh, the other thing, I'm sure your mix wasn't cold enough. It's vitally important that you use cold, cold, cold, uh, egg yolks, cold, cold, cold milk, cold, cold, cold cream. The sugar is never cold, usually, unless you do your mise en place beforehand and throw it in the fridge for a while, but very few people do that unless you're working for demos.

[9:08] So sometimes when I'm doing demos, I'm fortunate enough to be able to have the sugar be cold like that. You've already aerated it in the vacuum machine. So even though it's cold, it's going to want to boil over a lot. So what you do is, you close it, and then you wait. Keep your finger on the stop button. Just keep your finger there. Do not take your finger off. It's going to start sucking a vacuum, right? And then all of a sudden it's going to start boiling up a little bit and you're like, oh, I'm okay, right? It's okay. No problem. And then, boom. It's gonna make a run for the border and start spraying up out of the back at that instant, right before the mixture hits the seal bar. Boom, hit stop. Boom. As soon as you hit stop, the seal bar stops, seals it and stops any more of the egg mixture from coming out, right? Now, you haven't getting rid of all of the air in there. So it will get some flotation in your in your bath, which is why you should weight it down and crush it down, but it's good enough. And it gets rid of, and then the further cooking is going to pop the rest of those air bubbles, and so you do not have a frothy mixture when you're done, right?

[10:04] You simply don't. Now, if you do pack your stuff in a zippy, right, I've noticed that it

[10:10] cooks, it's fine, and you don't have as many problems with, you know, with the overflow, like you say, but there are a couple of other unintended consequences.

[10:19] First, there's more, you're not getting hardly any air out from the blending step when you do it in a zippy. So what you're going to have to do is let it sit for a while for the air to kind of like come to the surface and then kind of re-get that air out in the zippy before you cook. One, two,

[10:33] uh, in side by side taste tests. I've noticed that creme anglaise, not with that's been put in a blender, one, and

[10:40] it's cooked in a zippy without using a vacuum, has more of a cooked egg flavor, more of a sulfurous cooked egg flavor than a creme anglaise cooked in a vacuum bag. That's just been our experience. We've tasted it side by side. It's not that it's bad. It's that if you taste it side by side, you would always choose the one that in a vacuum

[10:56] bag. And, uh, was there another thing? Oh, last but not least, vacuum bags are extreme. I mean, sorry, zippies are extremely fragile at

[11:06] creme anglaise temperatures and they feel really, really flimsy. Now, this is kind of dovetail into what John Riper wrote into us a couple weeks ago, but I haven't had a chance to read yet. Uh, there's no safety issue as far as S.C. Johnson

[11:20] wax, uh, uh, a family company is concerned. But there is a possibility of structural failure. Okay? So there you have it. Now, on to John Riper, who sent us the, uh, the awesome, uh,

[11:32] Du Chili, uh, Filberts, Slatio Filberts, a hazelnut, right? You like those suckers, right? They look like wood. They're kind of awesome. I'm gonna talk about those more in-depth. John sent me on a little bit of a native nutcick. I'm on a kind of, even though they're not native, with a name like do chili. How is that going to be native anyway, but they're important, but whatever. They old. They're heritage varieties. But I became interested very recently in hickory nuts, Shagbark, Shellbark, Hickory nuts, and also butternuts, which is a white walnut. You know what I mean? Anyway, so interested in that stuff. You can't get butternuts this time of year, anyone that had them is sold out and the supply is extremely rare because all the white walnut trees are dying because

[12:06] of, well, because they're dying from disease. It's kind of a horrible story. But I do have some, even though it's also very hard to get hickory nuts at this point. I'm getting some hickory nuts in. So we'll test those, we'll play around with some native nuts, and then we'll talk about it. Yeah? Sure. You excited about the hickory nuts? Oh, man. How could you not be excited about the H nuts? It's like, it's like the hickory knot is supposed to be as good as the pecan, like as good as the pecan. Like some people say even better than the pecan, and yet nobody uses it anymore because it's more difficult to harvest and they're more difficult to crack.

[12:34] It's like, it's like, you know, I've grown up my whole life thinking that southerners have a lock on native nuts. The pecan being, you know, fundamentally a gift from heaven. And here I find out later that us northerners also have a, you know, a godlike gift from

[12:51] heaven, the Shagbark Hickory. And I'm 42 freaking years old and I never had one. Is there any justice in that? No, no, no, no, no. Okay. My iPad decided that it didn't want to work. Okay, there we go. So anyway, so John wrote in. not about the nuts. He said, I've been meaning to write the attached letter. He wrote an attached letter, which I don't have here, to SC Johnson. ever since Dave shared their email about safe cooking with Ziploc bags a few weeks ago. In my experience, it's pretty rare for big corporations to go out on a limb over much of anything, so it's worth applauding when they do. More useful, though, is the chance they'd throw some sponsor support your wave. See, hearing that, SC Johnson, if they're not, they don't listen. They don't know. They don't care. But I am glad that they did write us that email saying that zippies were okay to use. And I haven't got any pushback from that. Have we had any emails saying that we're bad people because of that? I mean, we've had emails saying we're bad people, but not because of that, right? Okay, Adam wrote in last week, about gluten. Gluten. I like that word. you like that word? Gluten. Dave, Nastasia, et cetera. Hey guys, you're et cetera today. They're not they're not happy and they're they're glum in the other room. Okay. I've been thinking how gluten is composed of 2 separate protein types. Glutin and Gladin, and I think it's Gladin, not Gladin, Gladin. I wonder, is it possible to make a wheat-free? I like saying wheat with a wheat. Yeah, wheat.

[14:11] Anyway, is it possible to make a wheat-free loaf of bread that behave like regular wheat bread by combining flowers containing these separate gluten

[14:18] components? Wheat flour is typically 11 to 13% protein, 80% of which is

[14:24] gluten, and gluten is about a one to one ratio between gluten and gluten. I guess, you know, it depends, everything depends. Anyway, can I duplicate these conditions without wheat flour? I've not been able to find a detailed list of flowers and their glutening gliad infractions. There are gluten-free websites that list gluten containing grains since gluten is the primary issue in celiac disease, but these sites do not post hard numbers. I have not found references for a good source of glutenin. With this approach to constructing a loaf of bread work. For example, while rye flour contains gluten, pentasands, pentasands are 5 carbon sugars. you know, the polymers of 5 carbon sugars. Okay. Pendicans are present that prevent the gluten from forming effectively. My alternative flower combinations have similar negative interactions. The bakery network website. WWW, the bakerynetwork.com, describes how to isolate gluten from flower, and then separate the gluten and gluten by rinsing with alcohol. Perhaps an alternative approach would be to mix isolated glutine and into a

[15:19] dome may have gleed and rich flour, where the protein relax and reincorporate into a dough. Thanks for your thoughts. Adam. Okay. First of all, I mean, clearly this approach would not help. Uh, clearly this approach would not help if someone actually had celiac disease because they can't have the gluten regardless of where it comes from.

[15:36] right? Duh. But, uh, the question is, is there some source of just straight glutening, uh, not that I, not that I know of. And I wouldn't necessarily see the, I wouldn't necessarily see the point of getting something that's high

[15:52] and gluten and then adding just gluten in when you could just buy vital wheat gluten at the store, you know, and add the vital wheat gluten to your bread mix and increase the protein

[16:02] compound. And as for pentasands, you know, what pentasands are interesting. I think you can add enzymes that break them down somewhat, and I think there are some enzymes that break them down naturally to kind of reduce the

[16:16] viscosity over time, but they seem to reduce the ability of gluten networks to form in

[16:23] 2 different ways. One, they actually interfere with the interaction between

[16:28] the polymers that are formed when you hydrate the gluten, right? And secondly, they increase the viscosity of the water matrix within

[16:38] it and therefore make it difficult, more difficult for the gluten to hydrate. So they have a two-step thing. They're actually inhibiting the formation of the network, you know, on a molecular

[16:47] level and increasing the viscosity, making less of the water available to the gluten dehydrates. That's what the pendicans are doing. Now, my presumption is, is that by doping up to a certain level with vital weak gluten, which I used to do all the time in low protein flowers, just dope it with vital weak gluten. Um, you can ameliorate some of these effects, but I don't know that you're going to be able to make entirely

[17:06] wheat-free, i.e. from no wheat products, including no wheat gluten stuff that has gluten in it.

[17:11] On a separate note that's interesting. Pentasans, I don't I haven't read any human studies, but people are very worried about feeding high pentasan grains to animals, because they can lower the feed conversion ratio, because what happens is, is the same thing that happens in

[17:28] the, in the dough, the pentasans increase the viscosity, happens in your gut because they don't get broken down right away. And so this increased viscosity can lead to a lower absorption of certain nutrients in chickens, for instance, that are

[17:40] fed grains high in pentasans. If you want, you can read the article. Increase small intestinal fermentation is partly responsible for the anti-nutritive activity of

[17:49] non-stars, palysaccharides and chickens. You can go read that, if that's the kind of crap you like to read, which I guess I am. I guess that's me. On a side note, I was looking through, and I saw Time magazine a couple of months ago, came out with an article saying, you know, how, check this

[18:04] out stuff. you're not going to believe this. 28% of people in the U.S. said to the

[18:09] Time magazine people, or something close to 28%, said that they were trying to reduce the amount of gluten in their diet. Is that crazy? I mean, it's crazy. So what's happened is is that the gluten-free market has freaking exploded. Like, it's like, it's a multi-cajillion dollar industry because all of these people who are like, well,

[18:28] there's some people who are allergic to it. So maybe if I just don't have it too, it's going to be better for me, even though I'm not allergic to it, even though it does no harm to me at all, even though it does nothing but make my bread delicious.

[18:36] It's a new organic. Yeah, but it makes no, it makes no dang. It makes no dang sense. But you know what? Good. Here's 2 things. Good, good, good, good. Like, make a buck. You know what I mean? If you're going if you're gluten freak. So like Piper, who works with us, I'm going to calm them out here. Piper, who works with us, he's the Booker and Dax lab manager there. He's been on the show once or twice, right? Is that true? Piper is Celiac. He's legit. You know what I mean? Like the man can't have gluten. In fact, he, like, muscles through it, like when he took his test at the French culinary, ate all the gluten, got the huge rash and all this other

[19:10] stuff, and, you know, the horrible problems, right? So he's legitimately gluten-free. And so, and there is a huge rise in actual cases, or so it's reported to me of people, you know, with actual intolerance to

[19:22] gluten. And so if 28% of the people around there are sheep and believe

[19:27] this craziness, that they should get rid of gluten too, even though it has no effect on them. I say, God bless them, because it means that there's more people pouring money into problems, they're going to help out actual people with problems like Piper, right?

[19:36] Right? Yeah. Oh, speaking of gluten-free flowers. In Africa. Did I already talk about this? In Africa, they have a type of millet called phonio. Did I talk about this? Jack or Joe? Not that I can remember. Yeah. So there's an increased interest in kind of the lost crops of

[19:52] Africa and there's a bunch of different people reasons people are interested. Me taste, right? Uh, people in Africa, economics, uh, three, I don't know, I guess those are the main ones, right? Well, it's economics, politics, uh, ecology, um, you know, soil

[20:07] use that, you know, uh, and, you know, taste. And a lot of the, you know, crops that are originally from that area are different species of millet. Millet is not a single type of grain in the way

[20:20] that, you know, wheat is. There's a bunch of different grass families with small seeds that are called millet. Uh, and, you know, they're, they're combined, their, their characteristic that they share is that they're all members of the grass family and that they all have extremely small seeds. So, uh, a lot of these are very high, you know, the ones that they use, the small millet, the large millet, and this tiny, tiny, tiny one that's known in Senegal as

[20:41] phonia with an F, uh, are very high in proteins, but apparently

[20:45] not uh, gluten and gliodin. So they can be consumed by gluten-free folk. Now, phonio, I had a loaf of bread in Senegal that was composed, based dead, could just be lying, right? Could just be lying. But they said it was 80% phonio and only 20% wheat. But the texture was like 100% wheat bread. So maybe there's some good ideas there for gluten-free people with phonio. If anyone has any experimentation that they can send in, that they've experimented, I would love to hear about it. I hear that long fermentation times make for better millet-based does, but I haven't done any research yet. I did bring some back, but haven't had time to play play with it. I've also heard that Thomas Keller's $15 a pound

[21:26] exclamation point gluten-free flour is pretty good, but I would bet not for bread. I bet for pasta. That's what Mark Ladner uses at Del Posta, right? He uses Thomas Keller's fantastically expensive flower. Yes. And he likes it, right? I tasted it. Were you there when I was there? Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah, I tasted it. It was good. I mean, look, is it as good as the, no, side by side? He gives you the one with the gluten and you're like, take the gluten. But, like, it was pretty good, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it better because they cooked it better, better than a lot of normal people's real,

[21:58] well, real gluten full pasta that was, right? Yeah. What am I, my Yoda? You hear how I put that sentence together? No damn sense. All right. Mark Jensen, should we take a break? Yeah, that's great. All right, let's go to our 1st commercial break cooking issues.

[22:24] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. Together with photographer Ryan Matthew Smith and Chef Grant Crilley, we've created something exciting and new at chefsteps.com. Each day in our kitchen at Seattle's Pike Place Market, we're working on new recipes, as well as updating classic ones that we love, and we're always looking for new techniques that make the impossible possible.

[22:51] At chefsteps.com. We publish it all online with detailed step-by-step demonstrations, as well as explanations of the science that answers the why behind the how in the

[23:03] kitchen. And through our forum, you can engage with our team, as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. If you're interested in becoming a better cook. If you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine. And if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold in cooking issues, then we think there's a lot you'll like. And the best part, chefsteps.com is entirely free to learn. I love that they say they're a fan of cooking issues in that ad. It's quite nice in them. Well, you know, we had the we had the Chris Young last week on the show, and we're put in the awkward position of having to cut Chris Young off to play a Chris Young promo.

[23:45] First time it's ever happened. Yeah, yeah, that was good. You know, uh, you know who does their, see, here's what, here's something you got to like about the chef steps. I look, there are sponsors, so, you know, but still, true. Here's the nice thing that they even the people who do, you know who does their web work? Michael Natkin. Really? Yeah. He does their wedding, of course. was in touch with him. And so, like, you know, even the person like doing the web work is like a lauded and loved food figure. It's great. You know what I'm saying? It's a good community got coming here. Yeah. Speaking of community, can I do a quick pitch? Yeah, sure. Still membership drive. May is almost over. And if any listener becomes a member by the end of this show. I'm going to go ahead and title the episode their name. Oh, wow. So, you know, act now. This is but this is like a real act now, not like where you call in and you get 5 sham wows for the price of one or

[24:36] something like that. No, it's not like that. Okay. Uh, but, uh, that's heritageradionetwork.org and click the donate button on the right side right there. Can you put a sham wow button there and we can sell sham wows off that thing? I wish. I wish I had... if anyone's listening and wants to send us some sham wows, we could use them over here. Here's something, it's not mine to give, to give or to say we should have a contest for, but there is an awesome pair of cowhair chaps in the studio that I've tried to steal like 3 times.

[25:01] Maybe that should be like a like a thing once. I think we should make sham wows that have the the logo, the cooking issues logo on them. That'd be sweet. And then if you call in and become a member. You get some cooking issue shamwas? Yeah, exactly. No, it'd be awesome. Well, back to the chef's desk per second. You know who I haven't really spent a lot of time hanging around with from Chef Steps is Grant. He's like, you know, Grant and Chris. Grant, apparently huge badass. awesome guy. I mean, I met him a couple times when Modernist Food was doing their, like,

[25:29] tour de cuisine around the country and in Seattle, but apparently just like a monster cook. That's what I hear. Anyway. Okay. By the way, still time to call any questions. 718-4972128 that's 718-4972128. Mark Jensen writes in regarding eggs. Mark Jensen here, Fork in the Road, mobile galley. You know, I'm gonna have to have a galley kitchen in my next apartment. It's kind of depressing. I don't like y'all. You like alley kitchens? Okay. I mean, because like right now in my apartment, I'm moving my part was just kind of, it's good because each of my kids are going to have a room, but my kitchen now is like kind of being, it's kind of beat down at this point because it's been 10 years and I've done anything to it, like literally, but it's like sweet because you can fit 8 people in my kitchen cooking and interacting and having fun without bumping butts.

[26:14] You know what I mean? Because I'm not worried. not a commercial kitchen. The space isn't a huge premium there. So I'm a little worried about how tight it's going to be the next time around. What do you think? And Stasha's like, don't care. Don't care. Okay. Fork in the Road, mobile galley from Lexington, Kentucky. Here's a question. Lexington, I need to go back to Kentucky at some point soon. I had a good time. I like Kentucky. I like bourbon. I like ham. If you like bourbon, you like him. horses are okay. Do you like horses? Yeah. But do you like bourbon? You like ham? So, you know, Kentucky. Anyway, 3 yeses in a row. Yeah, right? Whoa. Like, what is she doing here? She hates everything here. Right? I don't think they have hipsters in, I didn't see any hipsters in Kentucky. No, they do in Louisville. sure. Okay, yes, that's probably true. Yeah. Here's the question about uses for leftover eggs. leftover 64 Celsius eggs. Now, for those of you out there, when you're doing low temperature cooking on eggs, 90% of the eggs that you're going to use are one of 3 temperatures. 62, 62 Celsius, in an immersion circulator, if you cook a chicken egg at 62 Celsius for 45 minutes to an hour, you're going to get like a classic eggs Benedict egg in terms of the yolk and the outside's going to be

[27:22] custardy if you want to make it harder on the outside white. You can drag it through simmering water on the way to service. Okay? And you just cook it in the shell, you crack it out, and it cracks out beautifully. It's wonderful. It's amazing. life-changing technique, yada, yada. 63 degrees Celsius, right? Or anything really above 62, like 62, 562, you know, 62, something in there. 63, You get what's called a creamy yolk, where the yolk is creamy throughout, but is more like a sauce, almost like a thick on

[27:47] glazer or custard. Really nice. I really like that for like soups where you don't want it to bleed out entirely, but you want

[27:54] to be able to mix in eventually as a fine sauce or in an aspect, sometimes I like

[27:59] it where you don't want it to run out entirely. 64 is really, really creamy, but only sags a little bit. Now, what I call it is just set. So those are the 3 temperatures that are going to comprise 90% of the eggs that you cook in an immersion circulator. All right? Okay. Um, okay. I often run my circulator, my food truck for soft egg dishes, inevitably with some

[28:19] leftovers, you know, service. Never wanting to waste, especially a delicious fresh local egg. I chill them in a nice bath and use them the next day as an ingredient in other dishes. So far, discarding the albumin and jet that, you know, the white, and just using the yolk. I started with salad dressings. Caesars, of course, but as an emulsifier in almost anything. And I just went the next step and subbed them in a modernist cuisine's hollandaise recipe, which we talked a little bit about last time. Instead of cooking the raw egg yolk bags and zippies in a circulator, I simply blended the coal 64 degrees C yolks with the vinegar reduction to make a great base for the butter to emulsify into.

[28:52] It's freaking fantastic. It works better than the original recipe. Take that, take that. It works better than the original recipe, and the thick texture coming out of the ISI because they were shooting their holidays out of the ISI gun is fantastic. That's a good use. My question, first, I can't think of any dangers outside of temperature control in doing this. Can you? No, as long as the, as long as you, um, you know, are using it with it. It's an RTE food, right? So you treat it like any other RTE food where you've,

[29:20] you know, killed, um, you know, the pathogens in it and, you know, use it accordingly. So if you let it sit out for a long time cold, then you're shafted. You know what I mean? If you heat it up to temperatures that are going to be, like if you put it in an ISI in a warm bane, and you keep it in that Bane Marie at a temperature above the, you know, the kill point for, you know, whatever you're interested in, salmonella listeria, whatever,

[29:42] then, you know, no, it's totally safe. So I can't think of any extra problems. Second, you must have leftover low temp eggs from time to time. What do you like to do with them? Thanks, and please send me a Searsol ASAP. Uh, okay, still thinking uh, Sears on is the name to go with. Get it on versus the showroom. Anyway, Mark Jensen's. Fork in the Road mobile galley. You know, I never... I mean, like usually what I've never done a whole bunch, like for service, had 64 eggs. We, you know, would mostly run 62s for Benedict and 62s. You can honestly reuse the next day, straight up. You know what I mean? because what we do is, is we cook the 60 here. And you might be able to do this with a 63 or 64 as well. So we cook the 60, uh, let's say 62. We cook the egg at 62 for an

[30:34] hour and usually we overload the thing. And so, you know, once it gets back up to temp, we give it like an hour, an hour, and 15 minutes, right? And then we drop the temperature to 57. At 57 Celsius, there's no creep at all. It's totally safe, right? And there's no creep at all in the egg yolk texture over the course of a whole service. You could take those same eggs, put them in cold water, whatever, put them in the fridge, bring them back up the next day, you know, so

[31:05] then you cook off your next day's eggs, and then you put, you know, after you cook them, when it's time to retherm, you throw the eggs from the previous day in when

[31:15] you had it at 57. They come up to temp so that they're warm enough to serve in about 20 minutes, and then you 30, and then you can, uh, and then you can use them, you know, obviously use them first, but you can use them like yesterday's

[31:29] eggs, uh, without, I've never noticed a loss in quality, unless you're rough with them and the whites can suffer a little bit. Now that's a 62. Once you get up to 63 and 64 and the whites start to get more set, you might have a little bit of weirder whites on the 2nd day, but you can try

[31:45] it. But I think your use of the egg yolk is awesome. I can't think of any. I couldn't think of any uses for the whites, but someone will call in. I mean, you could always just crack them into a pot of boiling water. The thin whites will go away, hard cooked those suckers, and then use them in an egg

[32:00] salad, and everybody knows that everybody who's anybody likes egg salad. Stas, do you like an egg salad? Even Stas likes an egg salad. Four, yeses. Egg salad, delicious. Jack, Joe, am I right on this? Yes. Egg salad. God, I love egg salad. Uh, it's really weird. Like, it, like, theoretically, you would think that, I mean, it's, it's, it's perceived as kind of like a low rent kind of a thing, but it's really delicious.

[32:21] Like, why would that be a low end thing? You like celery in your egg salad? Yeah, me too. I know some people don't like celery in their egg salad. I think they're wrong. Okay. Mattia writes in about sous vide and safety. Hi, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and you ready? Others. You like that, Joe? Others. Okay. Thanks for a great show. Did you give a boo? Did you give a boo? I gave a little bit of a boo. You got to have like the boo button. You need a boo button. That's true. We should get like a ghost or something. Yeah, like, did did Blueberry ever say a boo on air for blueberry cereal? I'll go through YouTube and no, pull one out. Do you know Blueberry contains a FNDC Blue one? I think it's one, right? And we have a container of it. Maybe two. I can't remember. And if you eat enough of that, you don't defecate blue. You defecate green. Did you know that? No, but did you tell everybody about your cereal puffer yet? Can we get to that before the show ends? Uh, yeah, why don't you want to be? Okay. So that's, yeah, maybe I should talk about it. I talk about that at all? Not really. All right. So it turns out in the olden days, when I say olden, I mean olden, or currently they still use this machine in Mexico. And where was the other place? Possibly Poland. There's 3rd Peru, right? So when you wanted to make puff cereals, here's what you did. You took your grain, you tempered it out to, I think, around 12%, 12 to 14%

[33:37] moisture somewhere in there, right, tempering very important, I think you can do it with things other than grain, but that's mainly what they did. And then you put it in a sealed chamber, all right? And the sealed chamber has a porthole on it with like a door that shuts down really tight. It's got a huge giant locking mechanism, like a giant vice grip on it. Then you spin it so that it keeps on spinning so that everything's even. It's like a tumbler, almost like a dryer, right? Then you put a propane flame on it, like a big blower, like for

[34:04] a furnace. And you heat that sucker up until it gets up to like a 100 and it's 70 or 180

[34:12] PSI, like 365 degrees Fahrenheit, something like that. And when it gets up to there, you stop it and you hit the lever with a lead pipe. Might be a steel pipe, but I'm hoping it's a lead pipe because that's food that's food safe, right? You hit it and boom, the thing flies, and boom, the pressure releases and each individual grain just puffs instantly into puffed wheat, puffed corn, puffed rice, puffed anything,

[34:38] right? And this is how puff cereal was originally made, and it was called a puffing gun. And that is why, like, if anyone of you remember the, you know, I don't, I was not born yet, but I used to listen to a comedian named Stan Freberg from the 50s when I was growing up because my parents

[34:51] listen to him. And so, you know, I'm familiar with all the old marketing terms because he was an ad guy. He's still alive. And the old motto used to be shot from guns because that's what they used to say about puff cereals

[35:04] that it was shot from guns because legitimately it was shot from puffing guns. They knew have newer technology called continuous puffers that no longer work on this batch technology, and they're only used in countries that

[35:12] can't have the infrastructure to support moving the larger pieces of continuous puffing equipment

[35:18] around. But they're still used. And they're made by the Puritan Manufacturing Corporation of Omaha, Nebraska in the same way that they were made decades and decades and decades ago. And the museum of food and drink just received a couple of weeks ago, our very own puffing gun, and I could not be more excited because I'm going to puff everything. Like anything you, I'm going to puff the hell out. I'm going to take dry trip. I going to see if I can puff shrimp. I't know if I can because it's protein, not a carbo, whatever. I going to puff it. going to puff it. You name it, I'm going to puff it. Like, I'm going to take all these books on this bookshelf. I try to puff these bookshelves. Um, So this summer, if you're in New York City, uh, late summer because we have to build a truck and we have to make it food grade and we have to get our permitting and all that, but look for the museum of food and drink, to be hauling a puffing gun around, uh, as the 1st step towards our serial exhibit that we're going to have

[36:05] is the 1st exhibit, the museum of food, uh, puts out. What do you think, Jack? And you know where it's being stored, people? Puffing gun is being stored at the Heritage Meet at the Heritage Meet headquarters. Heritage Foods USA. Heritage Foods USA, but yeah. Because not only is Heritage Radio and Heritage, uh, Heritage meets

[36:21] a uh, a longtime supporter of the museum, but Patrick

[36:25] Martin's, our founder, is on the board. On the board. That's it. Okay. I've got great news William McGee just became a member. So that will be the title of today's episode. Yeah? Yeah. William McGee. William McGee. Thanks, man. in the game. Nice. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, William. I appreciate it. Okay. Mattia writes in about sous vide and safety. Hi, Dave, Nastasi, Jack, and others. Thanks for a great show. I was recommended your show by a friend and started to try and catch up on your archive. Many hours of listening to do. don't bother. I'm kidding, it does like, yeah, really. To let you know how I am, I'm a computer electronic engineer, impassioned by cooking, and I'm living in Sweden. A while back, I started learning about sous vide cooking as I'm totally amazed by it, especially cooking tough meats for long numbers of

[37:07] hours, 10, 24, 72 hours. I would like to try to learn to cook most foods sous vide, especially all kinds of meat that benefit in both longtime cooking and tender cuts, obviously shorter times.

[37:16] I'm currently using the poly-science creative circulator, which I think is great, though I'm curious about the safety aspects. Where in the temperature zone is the actual danger zone or safe zones, if you invert it? Is the so-called danger zone between 3.3 Celsius and 54

[37:30] degrees 4 Celsius or between 3.3 degrees Celsius and 60 degrees Celsius? 60, that's 140 for you guys out there. 60 is 140. Always remember 60 Celsius, 140 Fahrenheit. It's one of those magical numbers you need to remember. Okay. At what temperature can I pasteurize safely and keep it there for long cooking? Does that temperature start at 55 degrees Celsius or do I need to move it up to 60 degrees Celsius? This is my main question. And which interval shall I avoid, especially cooking long hours? This is my 2nd main question. Though I'm aware that there are many other benefits to work in the 60 degrees plus domain for tough meats, as enzymes get more active, et cetera, although, you know, they get the

[38:05] act. Well, I'm not going to give you that. It would take too long. But I'm curious for a pure bacteria parasite's killing perspective in this question. The reason for the question, he said, I find different resources that seem to be contradictory. and I'll reference them below. I'm interested in knowing that I get a decent reduction of all normal pathogens and parasites, including

[38:21] trichinello and cooking pork. What's the story behind the different statements? 54.4 versus 60? And then he references Douglas Baldwin sites, who he usually has pretty good numbers. Thomas Keller's book, Under Pressure, Thomas Keller's book,

[38:35] Under Pressure, specifically puts the danger zone at 4.4 to 60. So in other words, refrigeration temp upper up to 140. And that's my main gripe with that book, actually. That's just, it's wrong. I think, and, you know, I've heard discussions of it with people who are involved. And the issue is they didn't want to get into complicated, uh, they didn't want to get into complicated discussions about temperature versus time.

[38:57] Uh, yeah, that that was like the, that was like the unfortunate part about that book is, is them saying that you shouldn't keep

[39:03] meats um, below 140, 60 degrees Celsius for long periods of time when everybody knows that cooking at 55 degrees Celsius for 72 hours is entirely safe and above 544 for any length of time in meat, in beef, any length of time, uh, not ground beef, but any length of time for a whole muscle cut, over

[39:23] 544, uh, over 117 minutes. So 117 minutes and above, a minimum of 117 minutes guarantees safety, according to the old food codes. So that thing, the under pressure numbers is like entirely strange

[39:37] thing and kind of, I think, like the weak spot of that book. The recipes, I think, seem to be pretty good, right? I mean, although I don't know, I haven't cooked a lot of them. Uh, The en sous vide, uh, looking at cuisine technology website, it states that the danger zone is between 4.4 and 60, but then they say that the rule of film is a vegetative pathogen and parasite

[39:56] development can grow only below 544, which seems fair, uh, compared to the Baldwin sites. And then it references an interesting, there's a bunch of

[40:06] sites to say a bunch of different things. I'm not gonna go through each one of them because they're all different. And most of this stuff, people are basically wrong. There's, you know, there's one site that's, he mentions it's interesting called the Food Authority. What is it? It's something I have to look at it and call you out later, but it's basically saying that there needs to be more study,

[40:28] right? Which is absolutely true. Here's the real deal, okay? 140 degrees, 60 degrees Celsius, is the temperature at which most of the pathogens that we're interested in are killed in very, very quick order, right?

[40:42] So that number is on the safety and the food safety thing. Anything below that is shown as this danger zone because they don't trust you to do accurate measurements at anything below that temperature.

[40:56] And if it hits that temperature, you're pretty much guaranteed to have wiped out anything, that's a problem, right? And that's why they choose those numbers. And because they assume that there's a lot higher contamination on ground meat, even though the pathogens of interest

[41:08] are the same on ground meat as on fresh meat, they put the ground meat numbers even higher because they want to make sure that you rapidly kill everything on there. Right? Does that mean that in order to kill bacteria, you need to make it up to that temperature? Absolutely not. Okay? So most pathogens grow very well up to about 40 degrees

[41:33] Celsius, and somewhere between 40 and 50 degrees Celsius, go into a

[41:37] static no growth phase, all right? So anything above 50 degrees Celsius. So anything below 50 I don't trust as a safety measure for cooking for cooking things for killing bacteria. And in fact, I don't use anything below 54.4, even though there are probably numbers that are below 54.4 degrees

[41:58] Celsius, that will kill most of the bacteria of interest, it cooked long enough. I don't have any data that supports the thermal death times for

[42:06] bacteria at those temperatures. And so I don't recommend any procedures below that temperature for pasteurization purposes. Okay? Because remember, the lower you go on a temperature, just be, so there's 2 things you want to do when you're, when you're heating something. You want to make it taste good, 3 things. You want to make it taste good. That's the most important thing from my standpoint. Two, you want to prevent bacteria from growing,

[42:29] right? And you want to kill the bacteria that are present. Cooking over 50, you know, and definitely over 52 Celsius, which is Bruno

[42:37] Gouseau's number, is going to prevent the pathogens. There are bacteria that grow well above that temperature. There's bacteria that grow on thermal vents in 202 degree, you know, water. But the pathogens of interest aren't going to be growing above, it will take Gousseau's, you know, nice, but, you know, number 52. They're not going to be growing above that number, right? But the question is how fast are you killing them, right? And so for the bacteria that are present that you're trying to kill, right? The lower the temperature above the begin kill zone, the longer it takes. And I don't have curves that tell you how long to cook a piece of

[43:12] meat, to pasteurize it when you're at 54 below 54.4.4. And so I don't give any numbers for below 54.4. So the, the, the problem is, is that, uh, you know, they write the codes and this term safety zone, danger

[43:29] zone is supposed to be like kind of a boneheaded rule that we can all just follow and will guarantee safety.

[43:35] And it is. If you follow that old, you know, uh, you know, fridged up to uh, 60 degrees Celsius, 140 rule. Yeah, you're going to make safe products because that's inherently safe. However, it's not nuanced enough. There are many products that are safe. They're cooked below that temperature. It's just a question of now you need to actually worry about being precise and you need to worry about how long you cook something, right? So it puts an extra variable in that the food code under its normal guises doesn't want to handle. They'd much rather just have a cook with the 60, so it's safe kind of a thing. You know what I mean? Because remember, the regulatory boards out there. They're not they're not tasked with giving you as a cook. Everything that you want to make the products as delicious as you want them to do. Their only task is to ensure that food that is served to the public is safe. That's it. They don't care whether it's delicious. That's not their job. You know what I mean? I mean, stuff? Yeah. Okay. Was that helpful or no? Okay. Uh, and you go, Aguirre writes in on carbonation. Dear Dave, I've been trying to apply carbonation to beverages for quite some time with poor results. I've tried the ISI soda siphon and got very poor carbonation, even after using very cold water. That makes sense. I'll tell you how to do it in a minute. Various types of liquid shaking after each CO2 charge and leaving it in the fridge long enough to help further dissolution of CO2

[44:53] or dissolving a CO2. In the meantime, I got a hold of a 300 gram CO2 bottle and a beer regulator that I'm trying to connect with a soft drink bottle through a tire valve.

[45:03] See the photo. I'm still having poor results because there's a slight leak of CO2 through the valve. Uh, there are no screws through the valve and I believe uh, I've been searching around a lot and cannot manage the PSI that I'm aiming for. But I'm working to find a kind of glue that would stick to the plastic and rubber and would tolerate high pressure. Hopefully we'll have it solved by tomorrow, though if you're aware of any simpler way of attaching a bottle to a regulator would really appreciate your advice, I'm going crazy. On the product then, I'm trying to work on a gin tonic made by cold infused quinine bark, citric acid, and sugar, and gin. The flavor is more dirty than a GNT, but nevertheless interesting and inspired by your gin and juice that I had a few weeks ago on a trip to New York City.

[45:37] Would like to serve it in champagne glass. My questions. How do you manage to get such greatly thin and elegant bubbles? I work on it. What PSI temperature combination do you apply and how many recharges do you apply in order to get the right carbonation? And do you know the amount of CO2 that you can get to dissolve per liter? I've read the champagne holes about 12 grams per liter. Is this about right for the cocktail? What are the differences between carbonating soft drinks and other cocktails that include an alcohol? And I understand it with alcohol, you need more PSI, but how much? Any other tricks? Thanks so much in advance and excuse me for sending such a long email and ego aguire. Okay, 1st of all, so I looked at the picture. He is using a tire valve, which is a Schrader valve, that is being kind of bolted into the top of a regular PET bottle. This technique goes back to about 2002 from the

[46:20] grand master of carbonating at home. Richard J. Kinch. And I noticed that his technique was ripped off in a bunch of instructables without, of course, without crediting him because people are D-bags. So, uh, you know, I had already had at that point a professional uh, a professional carbonating rig at home because that's the only way I knew how to get carbonation at that point when he wrote

[46:40] it. But when I read his article on home carbonation. It was before I had the carbonator caps, which is how I do it now. Essentially, his technique is a homemade version of the carbonator capsule by liquid bread. I highly recommend that you purchase a liquid bread carbonator cap and the bottle and

[46:59] bag syrup, not the bottle and bag. The pre-mix ball lock valves that go with it. They're very cheap. You can get the cap for 15 bucks at any homebrew supply

[47:12] online and you can get the rest of the stuff, which goes right on your hose with no leaks and a hose clamp for about 3 bucks.

[47:19] And with that, you can turn any soda bottle into a really great carbonation thing. Aside from the leak, which may or may not be the problem. When you're carbonating straight water, you're going to want to be about 35 PSI, when you're carbonating a cocktail, like a gin and tonic, you're going to want to shoot for about 14%

[47:34] alcohol, and about 45 PSI. When you're carbonating water, you're going to want it to be maybe 40, 35 to 40. You going to want it to be at 0 degrees Celsius. There should be chunks of ice in it. It should be cold. Remember, it's going to heat as you carbonate it and it's going to get warm because you're not chilling it while you're doing it. too. When you're carbonating a cocktail, you're going to want it to be about 22 degrees Fahrenheit when you're working. That's the number where you want 22, 23 at about 14%. That's the number. And you're going to want to go 45. The reason you need more carbonation is because alcohol absorbs more CO2. So to have the effect of CO2 on you, you're going to need to have higher pressure. The other thing you're going to need to do is get rid of the airspace when you're carbonating. It a classic thing. That's the reason you got bad carbonation in your in your ISI was the ISI is very difficult, especially if you use a soda siphon. You can actually get better carbonation results out of using a regular whipped cream maker than you can out of the soda

[48:25] one because at least you can purge the headspace. If you're using an ISI and you want to get a good result. You throw in, get it very cold, you can even keep ice in the ISI, you put one charger in, you shake it a little bit, you foam it all off instantly to get rid of all of the bubbles and nucleation sites that are in the thing and to purge the headspace of

[48:40] oxygen, and nitrogen, whatever else. And then you throw in your 2nd charger, shake it, let it sit, then it will be carbonated if you release it slowly.

[48:48] When you're doing it in a bottle. You need to squeeze out all of the headspace, which is why soda balls are so great. Get rid of all that air in the headspace. Only fill it about 3 quarters full. Close it. Carbonate it once, let it foam off, getting rid of nucleation sites. Carbonated again. Foam it off again. Get rid of more nucleation sites. Carbonated a 3rd time. By the 3rd time, you should let it sit in the in the freezer for a little while to mellow out. Then you can uncap it very carefully and pour it and you should be good. The other problem you're having with that valve is unless you shut off the gas, you're opening up the gas when it's under pressure, it's going to make a mess everywhere. But anyway, so go get the carbonator cap. Make sure that everyone gives high praises to Richard J. Kinch, the granddaddy of the carbonation cap, right? Lastly, they're going to kick me off here in a minute. But lastly, Pauline writes out from Alaska. I'm a huge fan of your show while potting up some starts for the garden. I heard you discuss ways to screw up immersion blender mayo and suggest my solution. A wide mouth pint mason jar. works for me. I also have a question, a topic, rather. I was hoping that you might pontificate a bit on smoking salmon and other fish. I live in the interior of Alaska where they have awesome fish and make annual pilgrimage to dipnet the yearly quota for various salmon species. This is one of the greatest things about living in Alaska. I fillet some. Cut some into stakes for near immediate consumption, leave a few hole for extravagant harvest parties, and smoke slash dry the rest. Not like that pallid pasty stuff shaved that they sell in the store. Our smoked salmon should be almost jerky like and full of smoky, slightly salty sweet flavor. I love smoked salmon. I love smoked salmon. I want to do better, learn more, et cetera. Thus, I'd like to hear what you might suggest, including ways you'd like to use this fish candy. Okay, 1st of all, just so you know, like that, like, I'm sure most of our listeners know that, like, you know, there's salmon, there's Atlantic salmon, right? And then there's Pacific salmon, and they're not the same species. And in the Pacific salmon, there's a bunch of different species that they get up there in Alaska, they get the Chinook slash the king, which is the highest in fact

[50:42] content, the sockeye, which is, you know, also known as the red, which doesn't have quite as much fat, but it has a real kind of punchy salmon

[50:48] flavor, so a lot of people like it. The coho, which is also kind of high in fat, and then the chum, which is

[50:53] lower and the pink, which is lower. They are not bad. It's lower in fat, and everyone watches the super high fat salmons, both because of the omega bull crap, but also because they like the luscious flavor of fat.

[51:01] And if you're smoking, actually, high fat is nice because the fat's going to pick up more on the smoke. Okay. So, um, So here's what I'm assuming. First of all, the stuff that you're saying is pale pasty shay stuff in the supermarket. Look, I agree. Smoked most smoked salmon that you get in the supermarket when it's vacuum packed is wretched, but the same style of salmon, i.e. not the salmon you're talking about, the same style of salmon is incredibly delicious when you get someone to cut it hand cut it off of the whole

[51:29] fillet and you eat it after it's never been vacuum packed and allowed to get all mushy and nasty, I can attest.

[51:34] They are not even the same product. You know, I don't know who sells it in Alaska, but when you go to New York, Go to buy Russian daughters and have them hand slice you some of their, some of their,

[51:44] uh, their salmon. It's incredibly delicious. But, so the procedure that you're using in Alaska. I'm assuming is you do an initial brine. The initial brine is going to kill some of the, or it's going to prevent some of the bacteria from growing. It's going to be a kind of a curing step. Then you're going to air dry it. then you're going to equalize it, or you're going to, equalize it rather than you're going to air dry it, and then you're going to smoke it. I'm assuming you're talking cold smoking. Actually, you know what, hear the thing? I did a bunch, a bunch of research on the kind of safety. And I guess we should talk about it next time because I'm told I'm going to have to leave now. Should I talk about it more in depth next time? Or should I go? Do I have time? Next time. Next time? All right. Well, on the well, Pauline, I'm going to talk more about it next time. It's a really interesting subject, especially safety. There's a couple references I want to give you. They're cutting me off here, but guess what? The New York Times came up with a thing saying, uh, if you don't have high blood pressure, uh, you shouldn't worry about your sodium intake, not that I believe that study more than any

[52:37] other, because I'm very skeptical, but I told you. Told you, told you, cooking issues.

[52:49] I want to give another shout out to William McGee. Thanks for becoming a member, man. Couldn't issue. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.