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[0:38] issues.

[1:04] Calling your questions, too. Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cookies? Oh, cooking what? Cooking what? Cooking issues. Coming to you live from Oberta's Pizzeria in the back of Bushwick, Brooklyn. On the Harry Twig. And a host of cookies. I wish. Can we start a new show? It's called host of cookies. Actually, that would be Tozy's show, right? That would be Christina Tozi show. Cookies issues, yeah. Cookies issues. She can handle that. Maybe she should just maybe we could get her to guest host one time, just do cookies issues. Right? What do you think, sis? Sounds good. Yeah? Save us a week of work. Just kidding. Anyway, joined as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah? Yes. Anything interesting happening? Nothing? Nothing? Really? Not since I saw you 8 hours ago. Remember, the people who are listening haven't heard from you since last week. Yeah, you know, think people, how many years have we done this show, Jack? I think going on like 3 now, right? Three years. Something like that. Three years. Nastasia still has not figured out that the people who are hearing this don't hang out with us all the time. weird, right? Well, I haven't done anything interesting since the last time I spoke. All right. Have you? It's kind of sad. Have I? I don't know. I feel like I have. I don't know. I have to think about what I did last weekend. I feel like I have, but I haven't thought about it. What about you, Jack and Joe, in the engineering booth? Uh, I'm going to Bonnaroo with Heritage Radio and Roberta's on Wednesday. Nice. We're throwing a pizza party there. Nice. Well, I did do something interesting. Actually, last Tuesday, right after the radio show, in the evening, Heritage Radio had its 1st ever all host meeting. Right, Jack? All host meeting. Nice, sweet. And uh, you know, uh, maybe maybe after the uh, 1st uh, break, maybe Jack can say some of the changes that are

[2:55] going to be happening on uh, on our fine network over the next over the next year or so, right? lots of fun stuff. Yeah, you want to do that? Sure. All right, cool. All right. Now, and Joe, I didn't hear anything from you. You doing all right? Well, I'm covering for Jack while he goes to Bonarus, so. No, so not so much. So you're going to be, you're going to be moping. All right. Last week, we had a question about, oh, by the way, calling your questions to 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. We going to be here for the next 45 minutes or so. ready to answer your questions. Now, last week we got a question in that I wasn't prepared to answer about phosphates and dishwashing

[3:28] detergents. So, for those of you that don't know, a couple of years ago, a bunch of states, and then I think finally the federal government said, you know

[3:38] what? You're going to have to reduce the amount of phosphates or eliminate phosphates in detergents like laundry detergent. Now, the big one has a, it has, it's all the same crud, but it's, it's, um, it's either called, uh, it's

[3:52] tri sodium phosphate, but it's also like, you know, sodium, tri, polyphosphate, and sodium. So it's either like, uh, you know, TSP, STP, STP, uh,

[4:02] and uh, what they are, uh, is just awesome detergent

[4:07] awesomeness from it. So lots of things are like that, though, right? So lots of things are amazing at what they do, but cause problems. For instance, asbestos, asbestos? Freaking amazing insulator, completely dimensionally stable,

[4:21] uh, you know, really fireproof, um, you know,

[4:25] awesome from a technical standpoint, awesome. Also kills you. You know, so, you know, you can't you can't have it both ways. You can't have the awesome fire retardant mitts and also live, it turns out. Um, but, uh, so the phosphates, it's not quite as bad as that. It's not that it's going to kill you. The issue with phosphates and the reason that they were removed is

[4:47] because according to a bunch of research, one of the limiting factors in algel growth in water bodies is free

[4:56] phosphorus. And so if you dump a lot of extra phosphorus into the

[5:01] groundwater and it seeps its way into, you know, rivers and lakes and streams and whatnot, you'll get huge algel blooms,

[5:07] it'll choke choke out the life in there. And so that's why they say to get rid of the phosphates. Now, phosphates were introduced into detergents, uh, I

[5:18] think, according to some of the research I was doing, I was poking around, you know, fairly soon after World War

[5:23] II. And so what do they do? According to Cascade, who is cascade, the dishwashing people, who've removed phosphates from their detergent, this is what they say the phosphates do.

[5:33] Phosphates helped with dishwashing performance by facilitating food removal, removing the calcium that binds to these types of these types of food

[5:41] together, and ate it in grease removal. They also helped control water hardness and bound suspended soils within the wash water so that they did not redistribute onto the plates. So, and so in that little nutshell there. Like what tells you is that phosphate, when specifically this kind of phosphate, trisodium phosphate, TSP, or STP,

[5:59] what everyone would call it, are freaking amazing because they do a bunch of different things. First of all, they do what's called kelate and sequester calcium ions and other metal ions.

[6:09] What those things do, if you don't do that, is they redeposit on

[6:14] your stuff and make a film. Also, that disgusting film, you know, stars that disgusting film you get around a bathtub? Yeah, calcium and stuff, whatnot, different deposits, right? They can also, calcium combined with the soap, right, and then make insoluble stuff. And also, 1st of all, like molecules like calcium binding with your soap and your

[6:34] surfactants, your detergents, they prevent that detergent from doing the job on the dirt, right?

[6:39] So they shaft you that way. And I think they can also kind of cause those things to deposit into that awful film scum stuff, right? Try sodium phosphate is, 1st of all, it's basic. It's alkaline. So automatically, it helps break up organic organic soils. Most organic soils, including stuff in dishwashing, most of the time, is broken down well by alkaline

[7:00] things. Basic things, they break down proteins and fats and whatnot. So, which is why they're awesome at declogging grease in, what am I thinking about, drains? Like live with plumber, right? So they were awesome at that. They also, they're basic. They also key latency quester out calcium and other ions that shaft you. And so they're called what, there was, what's called builders in the trade. And so they do those phosphates, that phos do a number of different things that is very hard for one thing to replace it to fix. So what are they adding to it? Nowadays. They're adding sodium carbonate. So sodium carbonate, which you can make, you know, McGee uses it for pretzels sometimes. You bake the hell out of baking soda. It turns from bicarbonate to carbonate. They add this. It's extremely alkaline, right? So it does some of the stuff that the phosphates did. Problem with it is, is that's the stuff. I'm pretty sure from, you know, noodling around. That's the stuff with the new detergents, it's turning your aluminum pots and pans all black and disgusting.

[7:59] So the reason why your pots, your aluminum stuff is getting destroyed in the dishwasher now is because of things like sodium carbonate.

[8:06] The other thing, one of the other things they add is sodium per carbonate. And this is actually what's, I looked up what's in Cascade now, the phosphate free. Sodium per carbonate is added, and that is the main, one of the main ingredients in oxyclean, because it, when you add it to water, it, it degrades and turns into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonates. So then that also is turning your aluminum pots gray and disgusting, but it's got the oxyclean stuff, which is supposed to make up for some of the lack of bleaching and cleaning power when they took out the phosphates.

[8:36] They also add sodium citrate, which, you know, we use in cooking all the time. Oh, by the way, also, the phosphates, the same reason we use them in cooking, they act as kind of emulsifying

[8:47] salts, which is also good at binding the grease and causing it from redepositing. They also have to add sodium silicate, which is actually not sodium silicate. It's a specialized metasilicate that they use, along with a modified polyacrylate, which is an anti-redeposition agent. It's the same crap they use in diaper stars to make it absorb all the stuff, but that's, you know, a different form of it. Anyway, so there's a bunch of different things they're adding to it to try and get rid of the

[9:12] phosphates, and they haven't totally gotten it right yet, but they are apparently working on it. But by all accounts, you know, they switch because they didn't want to make a bunch of different detergents for all over the country, but they haven't gotten

[9:26] it 100% right yet. But there is there's good news and bad news. If there's a whole group of people who do not believe this stuff hurts the environment. And if you were one of those people, you can go on the, they also

[9:36] had some enzymes, by the way, to break down proteins before this stuff starts, if you have a

[9:39] pre-soaker, if you use cold water. Okay. Uh, you can go on Amazon and order boxes of uh, trisodium phosphate, TSP. It going to run you around $8 the pound. Uh, if you order the uh, Savogran brand. And if you order, that's Amazon Prime. There's another brand called, well, DAP. They're famous people, but they make a TSP that you can get. I think you can still buy it at Home Depot, because it's still used in pressure washing the sides of buildings prior to painting.

[10:07] So what you can do is just like add a, uh, you know, add a teaspoon of that to, uh, to

[10:12] the, your regular detergent and that should phosphorus up the stuff and bring back some of the old goodness of

[10:17] phosphorus. Of course, you might be shafting the environment. What do you think, Stas? Who cares? Wow. Wow. Yeah, Stas is Stas is going to go out after this. I have a meeting, but she's going to go frack. She's going to go frack some stuff. Hey Dave, you have a caller on the line. All right, cool. So that's the that's the issue on detergents. Go buy the stuff if you need to. Otherwise, sit tight. They're going to make the stuff work eventually. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, everybody. Howdy. Uh, is Aaron calling from Oregon? Oh, Oregon. Where in Oregon, are you? I was up under a dishwashing thing. I used to be a dishwasher when I 1st started out in the industry. I basically had the same, well, same problem with all the aluminum pans. It's been a very

[11:01] whole dishwasher, and we had the big Klingon. Make a lot of sense now. Yeah, yeah. Well, and by the way, just to go back for a 2nd. Uh, you can also buy industrial, industrial dishwashing stuff, can still have the phosphate in it, so you, so you can get it. That's a, that's a, that's a good note. And I think even the phosphate ones. They will ruin the aluminum somewhat, but it's not as badly as the new ones do. The deal is, is that the, um, the sodium carbonate and things like it, what they do is they eat away the protective oxide surface on the aluminum and then allow it to react with the water

[11:32] more. So that's what's going on. So, wait, before you go, though, where in Oregon are you? Where in Oregon are you? Uh, Legaswego. Small town little South Portland. Yeah. Well, I still have not made. I was in Portland recently, but I still have not made it to Corvallis yet, which is my dream to go to Corvallis during

[11:54] Barry season. But you got a question for me? I do. It's about ice cream A friend of mine owns an ice cream shop here in Portland. And we were having a discussion about making a sea salt ice cream about adding it in and folding in sea salt to get crunch of sea salt. Right. But we run into the problem of osmosis and the sea salt

[12:19] itself melting into the mixed and frozen base itself. Yes, I would imagine the idea of either powdering it with

[12:29] multidextrin or emulsifying in some sort of fat. But we hadn't had the chance or the money or the time, basically, to test any of it out. I was wondering if you had any ideas on how something like that might

[12:43] work, if it's possible at all. Well, I mean, yes, if you had enough time, I'm sure it's possible. anytime that salt is contacting a, uh, a water-based, uh, like a liquid, you're going to get, um, you're going to get salt melting,

[13:03] it's just going to happen, right? So, you know, you're on the right track, you have to protect the salt with something that is insoluble

[13:10] in water. So, for instance, you could chocolate coat the salt. You know what I mean? Or you could, or, you know, you don't have to use chocolate chocolate. You could use another solid fat, like cocoa butter or something like that, and coat the salt. So if you were to take like a like a panning attachment. I'm sure you could pan molding crystals with cocoa butter and then fold them into your ice cream and as long as there's no route for the water to enter. I mean it won't last forever, but it'll last a lot longer than you have now. I mean, otherwise, you're going to have to do something, you know, fairly sophisticated, like coat it with another water insoluble product,

[13:48] like, for instance, cornzane. But the problem with cornzane, cornzane's a protein that's soluble in alcohol but not in water. So you would dissolve the zane in high proof ethanol,

[13:58] toss the salt, and it won't dissolve the salt out. And then you let the alcohol flash off and you get a coating around the salt. I don't know how completely impermeable the zane is, but it's used as a

[14:09] confectionery coating at times to prevent moisture migration, right? again, I don't know how long it's going to last. Like the 3rd choice, I mean, the 3rd choice would be, uh, you know,

[14:19] you you could use uh, what's called an alpha tending emulsifier and an oil, and you mix them, and then as

[14:25] they as they start drying out, they should form a film around the outside of the salt.

[14:29] You're going to need some sort of moisture impermeable thing. I mean, the best, I mean, the best thing I could think of is something. So chocolate is quite thick. Cocoa butter is fairly thin when it melts. So you might be able to get a constantly churning thing of cocoa butter and get a very thin

[14:43] coating. I'm not sure. You know what I mean? Or like just make it into like blocks of sugar

[14:51] and uh, and I mean, sorry, salt and uh, something like like a white uh, chocolate or cocoa butter, some sort of solid fat, and then just shatter it, grind it into smaller pieces. Some of the pieces will be totally protected and others won't. You'll get some of the crunch from the chocolate pieces anyway, but inside of that, you'll get crystalline crunch. I don't know of a way of preserving individual salt crystals so they're not going to melt out, though. Does any of this make any sense? It makes amazing sense. Yes. Yeah, cool. Um, So listen, what, what, what you should do is, If you try any of this stuff, please tweet us back at cooking issues and let us know how it

[15:25] worked, okay? I will. I am actually heading down to, uh, the pear orchards this summer? I hope to see you there. Oh my god. I would love to go this summer. I'm gonna try to make it happen. I was going to go to the Miami to do mangoes again this year and it turns out it's been a horrible mango crop in Miami. Are the pairs looking okay over there in Oregon? They're coming out pretty strong right now. Sweet. You want to do that, Stas? You want to go to Corvallis? She's like, she doesn't want to go. I'm gonna go. Maybe I'll get McGee to fly up, too. All right, cool. So we'll mention over the air if we're going to do it. Anyway, thanks for calling in, let us know how it works. Thank you. Enjoy the rest your day, guys. You too. Okay, so we had a question in from James last week about making raspberry and other fruit flavor gins. Hi, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, Joe, at all. Yeah, we don't have the at all today. No, at all. know it all. know it all. know it all. Oh, know it all. It good. I like that. I enjoy the show and have gotten through the archive, so I'm up to date enough to ask a question. By the way, people. Do not feel obliged to listen to everything that we have said

[16:31] before you ask a question, right? Right. Okay. I've recently tried your Agar clarified strawberry gin recipe from the cooking issues blog with a slight modification from changing from strawberries to frozen raspberries. It not being the season for fresh berries, and easier to get frozen raspberries. It turned out delicious. The end product is a bit cloudy due to my oversqueezing of the gel, but this settles out nicely on the sitting. Alongside this, I try classic infusion technique, just putting raspberries into the gin, letting it sit at an ISI raspberry gin infusion. Each technique gives a gin, which is similarly clarified, after letting the

[17:07] ISI and Agar one sit to set him in out. Well, I foolishly didn't keep the Jinder raspberry ratio constant for these tests, I would imagine that I can adjust this ratio to match the color and flavor profile of each technique.

[17:18] Do the new techniques simply provide an improved yield, less barriers giving a stronger, better flavor and more rapid processing. So, what is a good use for the agar clarification alcohol infusion that gives a clarified product when classic infusions won't? Cheers, James. I think it's exactly right. The benefit of Agar clarification techniques is that when you do it, you know, you blend the fruit and

[17:40] the, uh, and the product. And so you get, uh, you know, very fast, uh, you know, mingling of the berry and the the, the gin. So the issue is your yield is not going to be as high. So you're going to lose a product. I mean, I do it in a centrifuge. Luckily, the enzyme I use, Pectinex Ultra SPL, when I do clarification is fairly alcohol insensitive. So you can blend things directly like that with the enzyme, the enzyme breaks down, the pectins, and boom, you spin it out. I would recommend, even if you're doing regular agar clarification, go on modernist pantry.com, buy some

[18:19] Pectinex ultra SPL to break down the Pectins in your slurry before you set it with

[18:24] agar, you will increase your yield by 20% at least because it thins it out. Um, so, and on regular infusions, you're just sitting a long time making an

[18:34] occavita. It can take, you know, days, weeks, depending on how strong the infusion is. Uh, you know, but again, it's valid. I tend to, you know, what I'm doing infusions and I want them rapidly. It's either because I don't have time or because I feel that the quality of the flavor is going to change as it sits for a long, long time. Strawberry gin, for instance, when I make strawberry gin, very fresh strawberry gin,

[18:55] tastes different from strawberry gin, it's been sitting around for a long time. So there is changes that take place in it as it sits. And so sometimes those changes are good, sometimes they're bad. Sometimes they're just different. So when I want very fresh flavors, I'll do ISI, or I'll

[19:12] do, but if you do ISI on berries. You want on strawberries anyway. You want to slice them very thin, so you get rapid, rapid penetration. Raspberries, it's not such a big deal. Another thing you can do, if you want to uh, do uh, raspberries with more traditional technique is do a pre-treat of the raspberries with uh, pectin methylesterase, which is novo

[19:33] shape. I think monitous pantry is carrying that now. That will keep the flesh intact over long maceration periods and then put a lot of the raspberries

[19:42] in, and it'll even out, and then both the raspberries should be good, and the

[19:47] liquor should be good. Most of the time, it's either one's good or the other's good, but not both, right? Right, man. Okay. Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. This is Dave. I actually saw you at Roberta, 2 weeks ago. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I was in New York, and it was awesome. Alberta's food is great. I went in WD 50 It was amazing. Nice. So yeah, it was awesome. Uh, so yeah, I got a question about uh, induction burners. Um, so I'm about to, uh, move into, or I'm moving a coffee shop from one to the other, and the other space is a little

[20:23] smaller, if you don't have a space for a gas stove. So I was thinking of getting an induction burner because mainly for, you know, making syrups and we also make a little bit of ice cream there. So, uh, just wondering, uh, if there's anything I should be looking out for other than size. Well, I mean, uh, so here's the thing on induction burners. I love them. They're great, right? You got to make sure you have the correct power, which I'm assuming you do. You have to figure out how you want your station set up. So the induction burners, if you're getting portables or movables, right? They come as singles. And I wouldn't bother getting the little the little home jobby ones. Like some people try to use those in industrial settings, but they kind of crap out on you sometimes. And a lot of times, you know, when you're doing professional stuff, you don't want them to crap out on you.

[21:14] And the reason they crap out on you is because they don't have sufficient cooling circuits to run the

[21:19] thing hardcore. And so if you try to overdrive them, they shut down and thermal overload, they come back, they don't die permanently, but that's kind of an irritating thing to have happen to you,

[21:30] you know, when you need to get a bunch of stuff out. So, I mean, and I think that's the main difference between the relatively inexpensive home ones

[21:38] are the ones that are so portable for catering that can plug into a regular 110

[21:42] socket and the much bigger ones. The only of the bigger ones, you know, I've really only had experience with the with the cook tech ones, but your main choices are the following, you can either get single induction

[21:54] hobs. They're obviously the most portable and they take the least electricity, but they only take

[21:58] one pot at a time. The other thing is you can get duels. Now, the choice in duels is this. They have front back duels and they have side side duels, right? So the advantage of a front back duel is that you can

[22:14] get you can get one and then you can get another one, stick it right next to it, and now you have like a 4 burner range, and then you can get another one, stick it right next to it, and now you have 6 burners, and they're all controlled from the front, right? Which is, it seems to me to be a pretty big advantage. Uh, but, you know, the guys at Sambar had one and they were having some problems with it. I don't know whether there's a problem with that unit in particular, but the concept to me is very appealing because it allows you to make a choice now and not be shafted for later. Although nobody wants to cook front back if you only have two. Do you know what I'm saying? If you only have two, you definitely want to cook side side. But if you know you're eventually going to gang up 4 or 6 of them, then I'm pretty sure you want to go front back. Um, The other thing is, is that even, you know, five, six, 7 years ago when people were buying commercial induction units, they always broke, always

[23:03] broke. And the braking features were 2 reasons. One, a cook would put a pot down, very heavy on the glass surface and shatter it. I saw more than 5 broken that way. And then, uh, the other problem was, is that everyone wanted the holy grail of Range Over

[23:18] oven. And if you do range over oven, especially with the electronics, the way they had them, you know, years ago, they always burned out. It was like inevitable. So, you know, but it doesn't sound like you're going to have that problem because you're not going hot over. you're not you're not going hot over hot. So you're not going to have probably cooling issues. You want to make sure that those suckers stay ventilated. So it's going to be a choice for you of what kind of configuration you want. You know what I mean? Right, right. I mean, I would, I would, I would, don't pay it too much attention to, I mean, get like a powerful one, but remember that

[23:50] wattage in an induction unit is not comparable to wattage in an electrical, uh, you know, a resistance, uh, heated, uh, uh, range top. It's completely non-comparable because the efficiencies are, you know, vastly different between the two. Uh, so, you know, a much smaller watt edge is going to give you in an induction unit. It's going to give you the same output that you're going to get in terms of like the actual heat in the pan as

[24:17] uh, as the, you know, the regular old coil units. And also you can't make a good conversion between BTUs and a gas range and watts into

[24:27] the uh, into the induction. You know, I've had, you know, I've done races even with the crappy induction versus, you know, fairly good

[24:35] gas and the induction most of the time is going to win because it's directly heating the pan. You get a first. I mean, you're going to pay more on electricity, no doubt. But you are going to have less ventilation requirement and it's going to take less HVAC load to cool your kitchen down. should you cool your kitchen down, which you probably will if, you know, probably will somewhat. So you can you can win on those. The only ones I really have experience with, though, on the commercial side are the cook techs, and I think they work fine. But, you know, I don't have a lot of experience with the with the other brands. Is there like a ballpark of like water I should be looking out for? Well, I'm trying to, well, get as high as you can,

[25:19] right? Uh, I mean, you know, they they should be, you know, the ones that run on 220, you should be able to get a couple kilowatts into

[25:26] them. no problem, right? So the ones that you plug into a regular socket are limited to about 1500 watts. That's about the limit that someone's going to want to suck out of a wall socket. So a 15 with one. 5 kilowatt. So a one. 5 kilowatt induction burner that, you know, the standard kind of crappy home models, they work fairly well. They're not as good as an industrial, you know, range, like a jade or one of those things, but they're pretty good. They're pretty damn good. But then, so if you go to the next jump up, like a 3 kilowatt burner, I think they make three. Uh, but look at what they, like the most you're going to suck out of a regular 110 is about one. 5 kilowatts. So above that, you're looking at gravy. I haven't looked at the specs recently because I haven't bought one, but if they have like a 2 kilowatt or 3 kilowatt, you're probably looking at, you know, mucho

[26:14] power into the pan. And I know they make wok burner units that are like 4 and 5

[26:19] kilowatts and those suckers are nuts because they're nuts. They're insane. Cool. Anyway. All right, cool. Well, let us let us know how it works out. If you have any more questions, give us a call back. Okay, great. Thanks, Dave. Thank you. You guys want to go to the 1st break? Coming right back with cooking issues.

[26:52] Once again, that this is the meatballers, fans and listeners of cooking issues, and the song is called Fish

[27:01] Is Fish Is Vodka.

[27:22] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine and co-founder of Chefsteps.com. We've just launched our free short course on verification, a modernist technique that can imbue a flavorful liquid with the appearance of being solid, a culinary illusion that's broken when the spheres burst with flavor as they're eaten.

[27:44] Our free course offers helpful step-by-step demonstrations are reverse, frozen reverse, and direct verification. We also explore the science behind spherification so that you can go beyond our recipes and create your own to surprise and delight your family and friends.

[28:01] And, as always at chef steps, you get the support of a friendly community of experienced cooks and world-class chefs who will answer your

[28:10] questions. If you're interested in learning modernist cooking techniques. If you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine. And if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold and cooking issues, then we think you'll find a lot you'll like.

[28:25] sign up now at chefsteps.com. So, yeah, Jack? Yep. Well, I was just I was just excited because I'm also a fan of Dave Arnold in cooking issues. I'm glad the guys at Chef Steps are too. You know who else is a fan of Dave Arnold and cooking his shoes? Everybody at Heritage Radio. Yeah. Like you said, we had our big 1st all staff, all host meeting, kind of awesome to get everybody in the same room. A lot of people, a lot of the founding hosts, the early hosts in the same room, same time. We just debuted the

[28:53] summer of food today, which is a student submission program where people are giving us travel logs and recordings and musings from their summer of food, which includes coverage on issues of farming,

[29:05] sustainability and all sorts of things. So that's really fun. We're opening up a whole new post-production division of the network, lots and lots of new stuff, and I would highly, highly recommend every listener of cooking

[29:17] issues, go to our website, click on evolutionaries, and there's an episode of Harold McGee, where he tells his whole life story, really, in a very tightly

[29:27] edited post-produced way. I think it's very fascinating for all fans of modernist cooking. When's that going up? It's up. It has debuted, so it's there for your listening pleasure archived. The evolutionary series on Heritage Radio Network. It's right there on the homepage. And you have a bunch more that are coming out over the summer, yeah? Tons, yeah. Wiley as well. Yeah, we edited his. Who knew he was such a competitor sports guy? He likes he likes the sports. He does. He does. He's damaged like his, you know, some part of his arm, so he has to get it fixed, I

[29:58] think, from like, you know, repetitive, not from punching his cooks, apparently, but from cooking. I think he damaged his, I don't think it was in sports. I think it was in cooking, he did. I think he just always wanted a sports injury, then, you know, had to make it happen through cooking. full contact cooking. Yeah. Nice. McGee's story is really great too. Everyone check it out. Indian food. Grew up eating Indian food. Wait, no, McGee, half Indian. Also, McGee, sports guy, but not like, you know, he's like a runner has been for a long time. Man runs all the damn time. Did you know that? Did he mention that on the program? You have to listen and find out. Yeah, I'll tell you something. I hate running. No offense, but like, I hate running. Like, it's just, I hate it. Like, you know how Stas, do you like running? You know how people, like, they say they get this endorphin rush from running, that they like it, and then they like to keep running? I've never felt that in my life. You guys, anyone? Yeah, no way. Joe. No, I used to I used to run track, but it was never fun. No, no, it's not fun. Running around, not fun. Uh, although, uh, uh, Dax, of, of my kids, booker and Dax, not the bar, just got picked for the track team. Nice. Nice. little mini track. Okay. Rolf writes in. Dear, Miss Hammer and Nails. So I guess I'm the nail getting hit on the head by, I guess all of us are. There's nails. So Jack and Joe also getting hit on the head with the hammer. Uh, Mastasia, by the way, just, uh, just during the commercial break, totally busted me because I was, remember last week I said that

[31:23] like I was going to go to jail because we couldn't find out what my court date was for my bicycle ticket. I was like, I gave it to you. Where the hell is it? And she's like, you didn't give it to me. You took it back, and we had a big argument, and I looked at my wallet. guess what? It was there in my wallet right around. Right. So now she's going to, now she's going to be, uh, she's going to be moody all day as a

[31:40] result, all, all, uh, I just don't like how angry you get. How angry can what? What? Do I get angry? Jack and Joe, do I get angry? I guess I do. But I don't, it's not, it's like, you know, it's not serious anger, right? Cartoon anger. Yeah, cartoon anger. Thats me. why no one takes me seriously. Okay, Rolf Wright's in. Dear Miss Hammer and Nails. Following on Tom Fisher's questions about his kissing coon recon pressure cooker. I can add that mine, Circa 2009 has always done the same thing. Bought it while living in France, and the customer service there isn't such that it was worth

[32:12] suffering, suffering the follow-up, a follow-up on it that I would have to do to get it fixed. So I just got used to it. For what it's worth, it's not the secondary slash higher pressure valve, which is the one on the side. But the pressure indicator valve itself. I've taken it apart, cleaned it. It hit on 1st use, so it wasn't food contamination. Tried to adjust the tightness of the bolt in the bottom of the pressure indicator. Used to be I could quiet temporarily by turning it while it hissed, as though either the hole or the valve weren't quite round, but no longer. Hope that's useful in your data collecting. Rolf. It is useful, actually. And I've heard, uh, you know, mine is Circa a long, long time ago, but I heard that Coon Recon was having

[32:51] some uh, issues with uh, QC, that's quality control. Uh, having some issues with uh, QC for a while, but that they had it fixed. I mean, I'd like to know how many people have this problem with Coon Recon is because one of my favorite things about it is that it doesn't leak. I mean, it's still going to leak a lot less than, you know, some of the other

[33:08] brands, uh, like uh, Fagor that, you know, leak by design. But anyway, yeah, I do want that for my research. Okay, Colin Gore. Haven't heard from Colin Gor in a while, huh? True. True. Writes in about apples. Palm nerds. he calls us. Yes, we got some good salutations today, right? Dear Palm nerds, my British girlfriend has been looking for Bramley apples in the United States. They're big tart baking apples that it seems can only reproduce by having a threesome. Super kinky triploid action. Uh, the, the referring to the uh, number of sets of chromosomes. So we are diploid. We have 2 sets of chromosomes. You know, there's when you have more than that, it's called polyploidy, right? So, you know, more than, and so the, but the problem is, is that, um, usually it's an even number, in order to, in order for the things not to be

[34:00] sterile. So 3 sets, triploid means that usually if you're triploid, you're, you know, 3 sets of chromosomes, you are sterile. Anyway, uh, you know, not you, you, the fruit tree, not you, the person. Uh, because I don't think that doesn't work for us. Anyway, okay. I recall Brockdale Farm is a massive fruit repository in the UK, but I think you mentioned the

[34:20] U.S. having a living library of apples as well. Uh, where is that? And have you cooked with Bramley's? What makes them so interesting to the Brits and what other weird fruit sex can you share? Okay. So, the issue, uh, 1st of all, the, um, the places in Geneva, New York, it's, I don't forget how far it is, maybe like 4 or 5 hours from uh, New York City, and it's the Geneva, uh, Apple

[34:48] Extension. It an extension of Cornell, but the Apple repository is run by the United States government. It's like Noah's Ark for Apples, and they don't really, like a lot of the people there don't really, some of the people care about the actual apples, but the theory is, is that if some new disease comes in, people don't think about

[35:03] it. If you don't think about trees a lot, but a lot of our major trees over the past 100 years have been wiped out by introduced pathogens and new tree pathogens.

[35:13] So, you know, Dutch elm, disease, wiped out the, you know, the majority of our elms, which were kind of the preeminent street tree. Um, we had our chestnuts wiped out by chestnut light. They were like one of the primary, you know, trees of the eastern forest. You know, they were like from sheer number standpoint, were one of the largest numbers, almost completely wiped out.

[35:36] Now only young saplings grow from the dead stumps. We have butternut canker, killing our butternut trees. Uh, there's just like, we have, we have a fungus that infects uh, beech trees, another important, you know, US

[35:48] tree. So you get a thing called beach snap. We have introduced things that are killing off our hemlocks, you

[35:54] know, our great conifers. So there's a we have a long, well, I should say long, couple 100 year history of having some of our major and important tree species getting wiped out by introduced

[36:06] pathogens. So what they're worried about is that some pathogen's going to come in and attack all of our commercial cultivars and wipe them out.

[36:16] So what they do is they have 1000s of varieties of different apples sitting there

[36:19] and, uh, and, you know, that way they can figure out which ones are resistant to whatever new pathogen comes in and then they can create new

[36:27] apples from those. That's why they keep them. And they still haven't successfully ensured that keeping just the, uh, the clonal, the, the, you can't keep Apple seeds because apples don't grow true to seed, but they can keep, they keep the wood frozen in liquid

[36:40] nitrogen. But, um, some people say that keeping the wood like that so that they can make new grass of it frozen in liquid nitrogen isn't so good because uh, it can cause uh,

[36:51] sports so it can change slightly from the parent tree. So people still say you have to grow all the trees. Anyway, that's why it's there. It's a fantastic place to visit. Okay, now back to Bramley's. So here's the thing. I've not cooked with Bramley's, because I've never really done, I haven't had a kitchen in the

[37:06] UK and they don't really, you know, doomed so much over there. I mean, the Brits, I think they just, they just like them a lot. The 1st, you know, Bramley comes from the UK and was discovered around

[37:19] 1809. It's called Bramley Seedling. And what that means is that it was discovered as a seedling. It wasn't a sport or anything like that. Because what it used to do is you'd spray apple seeds around, like, you know, 20 trees would come up, maybe one of them was

[37:34] good because apples, as I say, don't come true to seed. Okay. So the interesting thing about Bramley's triploid thing is that you need 2 other kinds of apple trees near

[37:44] it to have it work right. And here's why. Uh, so triploid trees don't produce uh, pollen, all right? First of all, apple trees don't like to self fertilize usually, which means you need at least 2 different apple trees near each other to get a good crop of apples, right?

[38:01] Triploid trees have 22 separate things in general, right? according to, I don't think it keeps a curtain anymore, but I'm no one to talk, the fruitblog.blogspot.com. Triploid fruits tend to be larger, which is why a lot of people like them, but the trees tend to produce fewer flowers, right? And they don't typically produce pollen. Now, remember, the apple trees can't pollinate themselves. So you need normally you need 2 different kinds of apple trees, right? One will pollinate the other. You don't really care what the seeds on the inside of the apples are because you're not going to grow from the seed anyway. Anytime you're going to reproduce the Apple, you're going to do it by grafting. Okay. Here's the thing. So you got these 2 apple trees. Now, the Bramways is just sitting there doing nothing, doing squat. So you have to wait for the other tree to pollinate it, right? Now here's the other thing. If you want that tree to also produce apples. You need a 3rd tree out there to give pollen to that tree because the

[38:55] Bramleys is shooting blanks, right? Okay. Uh, so so that's it. So some other triploid trees out there. Apples are Ashmead's kernel, which is my favorite, uh, kernel of

[39:05] national word for seed. My favorite all time, drink apple, John of Gold's, Mutsu Crispins, and Gravinstein. So there's a lot of triple light stuff out there. Now, the other question is, uh, what is, uh,

[39:18] so what other weird kind of fruit sex is there? Wait, I got a call her? All right, so weird fruit sex after the call. Call her, you're on the air. Hello? Hello? Oh, hey, I have a question about doing chicken. So I end up doing a lot of catering, and I, pretty unhappy with just the way that chicken turns out, in large quantities, being able to reheat it, um, for catering

[39:46] setup, and I was just wondering if you had kind of any ideas about how, how

[39:52] I could do something that would be delicious, and at the same time, you know, somewhat easy to pull off in

[39:59] a, kind of catering situation. Sure, how many, how many people on average are we talking? Uh, let's just say like 125? Okay. And what kind of, uh, you're talking like a main course chicken, so hot? Yeah, main course hot. And what kind of finishing stuff do you usually have with you? Um, with, with that? Well, I have a circulator, I have, and a bunch of other stuff I can bring with me, but generally we just use a grill or sometimes we have ovens or like fryers or stuff like

[40:28] that, but my preference is a grill. Right. Yeah. I mean, so, I mean, the, so the issue with chicken, right? Specifically chicken, and specifically main dish hot prep chicken, is that, um, in order to crisp the skin out nicely, you need to cook the chicken

[40:48] for, uh, a lot. Chicken skin has to dry out and render and crisp. That's why other than deep frying, super fast techniques tend to produce a less than awesome surface on the exterior of the chicken,

[41:01] right? And the breast meat is just tends to get way overcooked. Right, right. Now, if you can, now, so that, I would, I would circulate the chicken, uh, before, I would bone

[41:14] it unless you need to serve it on the bone because if you circulate chicken with the bone on it, you can tend to get a lot of pinking and red around it, which doesn't go

[41:21] away, and catering, that's like death, right? Yeah, I mean, that's the, I've gone through the circulating the chicken before so many times. And I mean, I'm not against deboning it, but I mean, I prefer the thighs and I would prefer not to debone thigh, you know, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, maybe I could just keep on the breast or something, but. Yeah, I mean, the issue is especially on thighs with that little short bone, so much red in that

[41:45] bone that the thigh, the thighs really turn pink. If you, anytime you do a low temp, like, to me, the easiest way to get around the problem

[41:53] of cooking a bunch of stuff off at the last minute and having is to do low temp, but low temp on thigh, you're asking for a complete world of hurt if you

[42:03] don't. You know, the other thing you could do is you could, if you nitrate them, the whole thing will be pinked and

[42:09] will look cured. You know what I mean? And then people don't mind the pink so much. But people freak out on chickens like for that. People just don't want to see the red, the red chicken. I mean, the advantage of boning, right? The disadvantage, obviously, is the freaking work, right? The advantage of the boning is you can then use the bone scraps to make stocks and gravies without having to get anything

[42:32] extra. People do like eating the thigh, the thigh meat boneless. I mean, what we used to do when we're doing large-scale chicken for hot prep is we would bone out the whole chicken and then roll it like in the skin. We would do the thighs and drums on the, you

[42:52] know, cut open, glued to the skin, and then breast meat in the center rolled. And then we would poach those off at, you know, in the circulator at like 63, 64. That cooks the breast meat in the middle and almost cooks the other meat all the way through. You can let it ride at like 57, pull it, and then throw it on the grill to crisp off the skin and take that thigh meat up a couple of extra degrees to cook it out.

[43:18] And that, everyone always ends up liking that preparation because everyone gets a little bit of white, everyone gets a little bit of dark and it's boneless, but it is a lot of work beforehand. The good news is that it's beforehand. So it's not work on site. If you want if you want to cook the thighs boneless, you're going to have to go to a much higher temperature or just cook it much faster.

[43:40] I haven't done a lot of experiments. My guess is that if you cooked it at 66 and you kept the layer fairly thin or 67 that you would be able to get rid of some of the pinking as long as you cooked it relatively quickly at those temperatures, like in a, you know, in a combi with it going or something like

[43:57] that. But I haven't done a lot. I haven't had any success with bone in thighs done low temperature. And what is the is the issue when you do low temperature, the red, is that coming from? I mean, when you circulate it, the bag? Is it is a marrow coming out of the bone or is it more just

[44:15] a time after cooking for a long time, it turns pink? I don't know. It's both. It's both. So what happens is, is when you suck a vacuum on a piece of chicken to put it in a bag. You know, if you're not using zippies, that vacuum will cause stuff to come out of the bone, which, you know, and all the vessels around

[44:34] there, and that will put a lot of the pink and the meat around the bone. And also, the bone is going to act as an insulator. I mean, the same thing that makes it good in doing traditional cooking. It insulates the meat so it doesn't overcook, right? is bad in low temperature cooking because it's slower. So it kind of protects that. And then, you know, the, the redness, the, how much of the red is denatured is dependent upon the rate of denaturation. So in in cooking that takes longer period of time to heat through up to cooking temperatures, you're going to have more red, then you would in a situation where those temperatures are achieved quickly.

[45:11] So it's kind of you're doubly shafted by it. Um, I mean, it can be done, but like you're going to want to either use Ziploc bags or very low vacuums and you're going to want to push the temperatures a little bit higher than you would otherwise want to push them.

[45:24] So what you could do is you could do your breasts at 63 to 65. I've never done this, but then try to do the legs at like 67 to 68 and see whether or not they're still juicy up at those at those temperatures and maybe those temperatures are high enough to wipe out the

[45:40] pink even with the bones in, but if you suck a hard vacuum, you're never going to get rid of the pink. Yeah, yeah. I've run into that a couple of times now. Right. Okay, that's helpful. Yeah, I guess keep donating is probably my best option. It is a pain in the butt, but you do get lots of delicious gravy. you. All right, good luck. Bye bye. Uh, so back to weird uh, weird fruit sex. So, seedless fruits, by the way, are one of either 2 situations happen, right? Either, uh, you have a situation back where, where, you know, the uh, the tree is actually pollinated, but no seeds form. I call that the shooting blanks method, right? That's called, actually, uh, steno spermocarpie. Uh, right? And that's how sealess grapes work and things like that. The other one is, this style is going to like this one, Parthenocarpie, which means virgin

[46:33] fruit, version fruit. And that's how things like bananas and certain figs work because they don't need to be pollinated for the fruit to form, which is weird, right? So like bananas back in the day before they were like, you know, awesome food things have like lots of seeds in

[46:48] them and they're fundamentally inedible until they found these ones that had Parthenocarpie.

[46:52] So, and there are certain figs that are also parthenocarpic. don't need any sort of pollination, but stars, you know how things are like the old school figs. You know how they're done, right? Here's some weird fruit sex for you. Wasps go into, there's a male fig tree and a female fig tree, right? They're not on the same tree. And they, uh, male ones have the, they're called capri figs, male trees, and they have this thing called a

[47:15] synconia, I think. synconia, synconia, anyone. And male, the wasps, not males. The wasps go into the fig, right? And they lay their eggs in the fig, right? And then the wasps are born and they eat their way out of the fig, right? And they fly to a female tree, go into the fig, and try to, they can't get back out again, lay their eggs in, uh, No, sorry. die in there. When they die, they don't lay their eggs, I guess. They don't lay theirs. They die in there, but they pollinate it while they do. And the fig dissolves the wasp on the inside, so there's no wasp left. That's kind of bizarre fruit sex, huh? We got another color? Color, you're on the air. More fruit sex after the call. Hey, it's Brian in San Francisco. How it going? Doing all right. How you doing? Good. So, I dehydrated my apricots, and I wanted to let you know that it is side by side with uh, with dyscorbic acid um, on one tray of apricots, and then I did

[48:09] the um, uh, potassium metabisulfate um, for the other tray, and far and away, the potassium

[48:15] metabisulfate one. Yeah. Was there any off labor from the sulfur? I guess not, right? I did not hate spinning off flavor, but in the bath, I could definitely smell, you know, that rotten

[48:26] egg, uh, sulfur, sulfur smell. Right. it should volatilize anyway while it's dehydrating. But I should also say that the ascorbic acid that the apricots ended up tasting sour. Really? somewhat from that escorbic acid that was was on the surface. Also, I should say that, um, I did get some browning on, on

[48:48] the potassium amount of myself. It's not foolproof. I used half a percent, um, by weight. And, um, uh, you know, I still got. I still got some, so maybe I need to, to, to increase that. I mean, the one, I was read, did some reading that, um, they use a kind of, um, a

[49:06] smoke box where they smoke some kind of sulfur, um, uh, dioxide. I guess it is into the into the box, um, when they do it commercially, which is how, um,

[49:17] uh, how they make sure that, uh, there's no, there's no browning at all. Right. Well, some, yeah, because it hits everything. Some people burn the software. Some commercial people do use the dip, but they use a much heavier duty dip than

[49:30] the sulfite people for home dehydration recommend. But, you know, it's the same procedure they use to bleach palm fronds, you know, palm things for making Panama

[49:42] hats. They bleach them with sulfur. They burn sulfur underneath the uh, underneath the palm leaves so that they can bleach them out for making uh, Panama hats. So yeah, that's an old school, that's an old school technique. How is your wife with the sulfur? Any problems? Chasing tritum yet. But I think it should be fine because she did, she does okay with with most wine, with wine. So, um, it's just the asthma piece, which was in question. Right. Well, you know, having an inhaler nearby, she, does she, uh, she uses you. Yeah, have an inhaler nearby. I mean, if she has most wines without a problem, I, you know, you're not going to probably get a, uh, I mean, yeah, or at least not one that's uh,

[50:24] life-threatening. Yeah, but it was nice to do the side by side. I said, no, I have a clearer sense of it. Cool, tweet a tweet a picture over at cooking issue, so I can take a look at it if you can. Yeah, yeah, I'll try to do that with my with my dumb phone. But I have another question here, um, which is, um, I, I need a foolproof recipe for mayonnaise because I tried the immersion blender technique that I found on the Sirius

[50:48] Heats website and I tried, and it, and it, and I couldn't save it, and then I, I, um, I tried

[50:53] McEase. I looked into his uh, he's a good cooking. He says, add another yoke if it breaks, and I added that and I couldn't, and I, and I tried it with a whisk also as well. So, I, I need some, some advice on, on, um, ratios and

[51:08] techniques. Right. Well, did you hear the, did you hear the episode where we, uh, the one with, uh, Chris Young on

[51:14] it where like my feeling is, is that the main problem is when you're doing the series

[51:18] each technique of using the immersion blender without, you know, without any sort of pre-mixing is the, uh, is the size of the vessel. So if you did you did you hear that one? So if you're making the... Yeah, so like the trick is, okay, so I've been contradicted by a couple of listeners who have, you know, written in and said that

[51:37] they can make it normally in a large vessel like a quart container. But I was running some side by side tests using the immersion blender to make the mayonnaise in the immersion blender cup, which is roughly the same diameter as the bell of the immersion blender.

[51:52] And when you do that, you know, the egg yolk sinks to the bottom, it like makes an emulsion and then builds very quickly and easily, right? Or, and then I tried doing it in a quart container and it failed miserably. Miserably. Ah, miserably. And, and I, and just like you said, I tried to fix it, miserable. Just awful. So when you're making it in large vessels, I mean, like when I do it in large vessels, I take a whisk, I break the egg yolk, I hit it, I hit it with mustard vinegar, hit

[52:23] it, and then very, very slowly drizzle in the 1st bit of oil while I furiously mix with my hands until you see a stable emulsion forming.

[52:31] Then. Yeah, he's a whisk. Yeah, but then, but like, but not anymore. Now, you know, I use for small quantities, I do the immersion blender thing. Once you form an emulsion, then you can kind of go ape, you know what I mean? Then all of a sudden nothing matters anymore. The hard part about mayonnaise is the very beginning part, getting that initial stable thing going. So my feeling is, is that if you're doing the court container situation, although some people say they do it in a core container, it works. But if you're doing it in a core container, at least with one egg yolk, I was unsuccessful because it mixed the egg yolk and the oil together before it had formed any kind of stable emulsion.

[53:07] And so then you're just hosed. Now, the other thing is, is that, uh, you know, you want to, you want to make roughly 80% oil 20% water, uh, base stuff. That's how it works. And McGee and I used to do, you know, as part of the, Curious Cook was his 2nd book, which you

[53:26] guys should all go on A, B, E, or on book find or whatever and buy a copy of it. But, you know, he goes through there, the experiment that you can actually make, you know, many quarts of mayonnaise out of one egg yolk.

[53:38] So we used to do that and we would do it with a whisk. We would get one egg yolk. We would we would hit it with a whisk, and we would start make it, and then we would just make gallons of mayonnaise with the one with the one egg yolk,

[53:48] right? But you have to keep adding water to it, right? Because if you get too much oil in, the emotional break and then you're shafted, right? So you want to try to stay, but the other hand is if you don't add enough oil, it's thin. So adding the oil up to around 75, 70, to 80%, 80%. Right when you get there is when it gets that thick mayonnaise consistency. Anything less and it's going to be thin, anything too much more, and the mayonnaise is going to break. But you can always add some liquid back in, thin it down, and then build it back with more oil. Okay, uh, I got the ratios. Do I need to refrigerate it? Because I don't understand how white Japanese mayonnaise is not ever in the fridge. Well, same with New Orleans mayonnaise. Uh, you know, they they guys in New Orleans keep their mayonnaise out all the time. The issue usually when you're making mayonnaise, you add acid to the egg yolk portion of

[54:41] it. And over time, the very low water activity combine with the acid will kill whatever ails you in the mayonnaise, at least so they say, but the issue the issue is that mayonnaise right out of the gate is not safe.

[54:53] The Japanese guys, Kupi, they might actually also dope it with something to kill anything in it. But my impression from what I've read is that mayonnaise properly made mayonnaise with an acidifier in it gets safer over

[55:05] time, not less safe over time. So how long do you think it'll keep? Oh, a long time. You know, my grandma used to, my grandma would throw away any sandwich with mayonnaise on it that was out for more than like 20 seconds.

[55:19] She would be like, oh, mayonnaise is out in the shoot throw it out, but, you know, I don't have any solid numbers for you, but a while. But I would make it in small quantities anyway, though. You know what I mean? Make it in small corners anyway. Got it, got it, got it. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to try this technique and make sure you get my ratios right. Can I ask you another question? Is there time? Sure. Okay. Um, my, my, I'm, I make, I make, and I make also a bread starter, but the problem with having them out all the time is that I

[55:51] got to keep feeding them. Um, so I put it in the fridge to slow the, um, slow down the reactions for, for, for both

[55:58] them and I understand they're, they're, they're separate. But my question is, is there a different kind of acid that is released at that temperature for the fermentation than it would be at room temperature, meaning I, I think I read something that, there's more, more elactic acid, or that room camp, and more, um, uh, some kind of, uh, a, a different kind of acid,

[56:20] maybe a, uh, acorbic or something, or something. And so I'm wondering if, if that's in, in a, That's a consideration, or I need to bring it to room temp 1st when I use it and just kind of store it,

[56:32] um, when I'm not using it in the fridge, uh, thought? Right. Well, here's the deal. So, uh, anytime you change the, either

[56:40] what uh, something is growing on, what the starter medium is, or anytime you change the growing conditions, meaning the temperature at which it's stored, or I guess even really the humidity at which it's stored, you're going to shift which

[56:52] bacteria and which yeast are growing properly in that starter, right? So if you look at any sort of actual fermentation, it's not one specific thing that is growing over the length of the

[57:04] fermentation. Different organisms take over at different stages, depending on what the pH is, and depending on what the temperature is, et cetera, et

[57:11] cetera. depending on how much oxygen's dissolved. So, the trick is, is if you want a consistent starter, you just have to do everything consistently.

[57:19] So yes, storing it in the fridge will change the culture, right? Uh, somewhat. But when you use it, as long as you use it the same way every time and store it the same way every time, eventually you'll achieve some sort of consistency, you hope. Another thing you can do, if you want to store it, and it also changes the consistency, is a lot of people store their starters

[57:37] of very much more stiff than you would ordinarily form a

[57:41] starter, and that slows down all the rates of reactions. Another thing people do. This dope it with more with more solids, more flour. Okay, got it. All right, thanks so much. Have a good week. You too. All right. Now, on our way out. I didn't get to talk about salt risen bread this time or hickory nuts. get that to that next time. I hope. But one last fruit sex. My favorite fruit sex of all is vanilla. So vanilla, vanilla, the being, the orchid, right? Vanilla is from Mexico. And in Mexico, it's pollinated by a special bee that only grows in Mexico. And when they tried to take vanilla out of the Mexico, they could not get it to reliably produce because it will not pollinate itself. It turns out that vanilla orchids have a chastity belt on them. And vanilla orchid, it's called the arrestellum. And the deal is, is that vanilla orchids don't want to pollinate themselves. They want to prevent self-pollination because they don't like vanilla orchids don't appreciate incest, right? Now, so no one could figure out what the hell is going on. No one could get vanilla to produce. On the island of, I guess in French is, you know, but it's reunion in the US language here, right? Which is off the coast of Madagascar. In 1841, a slave named Edmund Albius, figured out how to, how to, what's a polite word to say it, how to sex up the orchid by remove it by taking the orchid, flipping open the chastity belt and taking with a little blade of grass and taking his thumb and rubbing the male private parts and the female private parts with his

[59:12] finger and force ancestrally pollinate the vanilla beans and

[59:17] single-handedly. This slave, uh, invented the uh, vanilla

[59:23] trade that coming out of reunion

[59:28] single-handedly. Now, he was a slave. So he got almost no credit at all, right? They outlawed slavery soon thereafter in the late 1840s, France did, right? And he just kind of was like left to fend for himself. No money, no nothing. And he actually got sent, he stole some jewelry because he, he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. This guy literally was the foundation of this of what was one of the biggest industries over there. They finally let him out, the Glenwood cremacy, because they're like, yeah, I guess you did, you know, you did give us all our livelihood.

[59:57] So they let him out, but he died in poverty in 1880. So it turns out that, uh, sexing an orchid doesn't necessarily lead to wealth and fame. Cooking issues.

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