[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and sons, third-generation curemasters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams,

[0:08] bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit Surrey farms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.

[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cookies. She's coming to your live from the British Pizzeria in the back of the book. Yeah, in Bushway, Brooklyn. Brooklyn. How you doing, Stas? Join us usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Got a full crew today. We got Pedro here is new filming the program today. Is Jack still over there? did he hightail it out? No, I'm here. Hi, Jack, Joe, saw Eddie in the back full crew, right? Full crew. Full crew. Call any questions, two, 718-497-2128. 7184972128. Cooking questions, non-cooking questions, whatever. You have a lot of questions. Yeah, I do. But before I do that, we have a theory in from at Leapers 500 on Twitter. A theory about Nastasia's Hate of Everything. Wow. Yeah, right? And and by the way, I just have to warn you, uh, leapers, I can't believe he's the 500th leaper. Is that possible? Anyway, I just have to warn you that you are about to start some sort of evil feud with Nastasia, not necessarily something you want to do, but the theory

[1:35] is, she hates everything because secretly she wants the wonder of her universal hatred to keep people asking her what she

[1:42] likes. Nah I think he's given that way too much thought That's weird. Wow. Wow. So Nastasia hated that. All right, very good, very good. All right. I'm on last week's questions first, right? Well, you got a special greeting too. should probably do that. Oh, that's right. That's right. Hold on. let's do that right after you coming. want to do it at the top? Yeah. All right, hold on a second. We don't know, we don't know what, which one though, right? No we don't. All right. A very special happy birthday to John Rapper out in Seattle. Happy birthday, brother. Thanks for listening to the show and contributing so many interesting questions, right? Yeah, we got a chance to meet him and his wife when they came up. You were in Senegal, but they were lovely and brought us all some nice little

[2:37] gifts. I like this. Gifts are good. I'd say there are our favorite listeners. Yeah, really? For me, speak for myself. Oh, yeah, yeah, you know, it's like I try not to play favorites with our loyal, loyal listeners. Okay, we have some questions from last week are going to hit. Jacob wrote in about Berg Rogers. Hey, hope you're still the manda for this onto the rest of the crew. I don't know who you've mailed it to. Was that Jack? Maybe. I'm looking for a good bird grinder at home, but we're talking about coffee, people. I make mostly pour over. Pourover is a horrible. They need to think like, I guess drip's also a bad word, but pour over sounds like com over, doesn't it, Stas? Like pour over coffee, comb over coffee. Anyway. but I make mainly pour over and espresso. I was looking at the Breville, BCG, 800 XL smart grinder. What is your take? I'm hoping to find something that makes effing good coffee. It's all bleeped out because he says, I know you're a family trying to make this a family show from Jacob. Okay. Okay, so look, just so you guys know my take on this. So everyone, not everyone, a lot of people, they spend a lot of money on their espresso machine, right? mean, it's just something people do. They spend a lot of money on their espresso machine. And they always, then don't, well, not always. Often, don't spend enough money on the grinder. And it turns out that the grinder, in terms of the quality of your coffee, is almost an equal partner to your espresso machine. So if you don't get an espresso machine. I mean, a grinder rather that's up to snuff for your espresso machine, then, hey, what's the point? You know what I'm saying? Now, back when I bought my grinder, which was many, many, many,

[4:11] many moons ago, I got the Rancilio Rocky, which at the time was the best option for, you know, semi-serious home

[4:22] folks cost $350 and my wife made something akin to Nastasia's vegan face when she found out that I had purchased

[4:30] it because it seemed like a lot at the time. That does a good job. It's a flat grinder, right? It's okay. And now, 12 years later, I think 12, maybe a couple more years later that I've had it, you know, it needs new set of burrs

[4:45] now, probably, or needs sharpening. But a couple years after I got mine, everyone said, you know what, the one to get is the

[4:54] Mazer mini, right? Now, the Mazra mini is functionally in a professional espresso grinder. You could find it, you know, if it's small for a professional setup, but it functions in the same fashion as a full-size professional espresso grinder.

[5:07] It's 575 bucks, all right? Now, it's really freaking expensive. It's 575 bucks, but the great thing about the Mazar mini for espresso is that it's got a very fine grind adjustment.

[5:19] It's got nice conical burs that are fairly large, aren't going to warm up your coffee. fairly repeatable. And that is kind of the standard by which all home possible grinders for espresso are rated. Now, I'm not such a big. I don't really think too much about grind quality for pour over, but in essence, the problem you're going to have is that you're going to be doing a lot of adjusting between pour over and

[5:44] not pour over. I mean, I leave mine tuned close to what I want for espresso and my

[5:50] rocky and then I never touch it. And then well, it's not true. Like whenever I'm doing a shot, I'll adjust it up or down based on how the shots are pouring today, which is, I believe, a

[5:59] lot, not just to do with the beans, but also the relative humidity. anyway. But, you know, it kind of wants to stay close to being dialed in, I don't like to move it around a lot. Now, you might want to consider getting an inexpensive grinder for your pullover and a really expensive one or if you can afford it, a more expensive one for

[6:18] your, um, for your espresso. I've also heard good things about the Los San Marco lower end professional one. I had one that was out of whack that I picked up used. I never got to work right, so I don't really want to talk about it because I don't really want to talk about it. Now, as to the one you're asking me about, the Breville BCG 800 XL smart grinder. I've never used it ever. I went and looked at it. It's a lot cheaper than the Rocky, which is the one that I have, or it's 150 bucks cheaper. It's 199 bucks apparently. I looked at a coffee geek, which, although they haven't had a lot of recent postings, as far as I can tell, was the website that I used to go to all the time when I was in the

[6:57] coffee purchasing and coffee thinking mode, more of a coffee thinking and purchasing mode. And their gripe about it is that it's, well, they say it's a good grinder, but they say that the adjustment on it for the grind adjustment is not fine enough to really perfectly dial in an espresso

[7:14] shot. That's the gripe. And I heard that gripe from a couple of people who seemed relatively knowledgeable about what was going on. Not that it's a bad quality grinder, but just that the grind adjustment wasn't fine enough. And I don't know if that's something that can be hacked or tweaked, but if so in other words, consistent, which is important, but not adjustable enough.

[7:32] So that's, that's, that's what it is. What do you think? Good. Enough. Yeah, okay. I never tell whether I can, whether I've said enough or too little or too much. Okay. David writes in about the muffin style. I like that. That should be a new dance. You gonna make that dance up stuff? Muffin style? No? Ragamuffin, you're not going to do some sort of muffin dance? No? All right. Uh, hey, cooking issues. In the muffin method, sugar is treated as a wet ingredient. I understand that this is possible because the sugar dissolves are readily in water. You want to grab that before the muffin question? I want you people to think about muffins and I'm going to take this collar. Color, you're on the air. Hi. Um, my name is Latima. I was just, I recently started eating only egg whites because I heard it was healthier. Is that true? I don't believe so. Who told you that? I've read it That there is more cholesterol and fat in the yolk. That's true. More protein in the white. That's true. But do you have high cholesterol? I don't think so, no? But I don't want to have high cholesterol either. Yeah. Well, you know, so look, you make you make your own cholesterol. Here's it. Egg yolks are one of nature's miracles. They're amazing. Like they taste delicious. I think you have to agree that when you eat only the egg white, that it does not taste anywhere near as delicious as when the egg yolk is in

[8:56] it. And I also don't think that the products that you make with it are going to be as satisfying, meaning you're probably going to have to eat more of it. Now, I can see, you know, if you have, um, if you

[9:09] need for some reason, just a whole boatload of, uh, protein for some reason that I can't understand, then, yeah, I guess you could go with egg whites, but the fact of the matter

[9:19] is, there's not that many calories in a whole egg. So it depends on how much, I mean, and there is there is quite a bit of, uh, you know, fats, cholesterol, phospholipids, things like that. But, you know, a lot of that, I think is good stuff. I mean, it's supposed to be nourishing. It grows a chicken, you know, so I think that you're much better off if you're really worried about the caloric intake, just eating slightly

[9:41] less and enjoying the taste of real whole eggs in an omelette or scrambled

[9:46] formatter, anything like that. I mean, there's plenty of places where I use egg whites, like when I make age food cakes, which I think are delicious, although

[9:53] stars disagree, some meat doesn't like age food cake. But, um, you see, but do you disagree with me or no? I think yoles are really good, but, um, the protein and egg is like supernatural protein or

[10:08] something, and like the protein that you get in meat or fish or whatever else isn't as good, the quality of the protein isn't as good as the protein and the egg.

[10:20] Right, I mean, I have to, I have, it's been a long time since I've looked up theoretical, um, completeness of proteins across the board, but I mean, egg, egg is, you know, nature's miracle kind of food. You could grow a whole chicken from it. I'm not a firm believer in. I mean, like I said, there are proteins that are deficient. So for instance, you know, if you eat only, uh, you know, certain grains, the proteins in them can be

[10:44] deficient, they need to be made up in other ways because they don't contain, um, the right balance of amino acids. But I don't know that the quality of protein from an egg is going to be fundamentally different in terms of what your body does with it from one in meat. It is a, you know, a very high source of protein. But like I said, most of us have most of us get much more protein than we need in this country,

[11:08] right? So you have no need for an extremely concentrated protein source unless you're a bodybuilder,

[11:13] which I don't know, maybe you're a bodybuilder. Uh, but, you know, the, the, my firm belief is that you

[11:21] should uh, eat the, eat foods in the way that make them taste good, that that's going to make you

[11:27] sated faster. You're not going to necessarily eat as much or be driven to eat as much if you just focus on trying to make products that, you know, that

[11:37] taste good. And egg is a nutritional marvel, you know, yolk or not. I mean, think about it, from a cooking standpoint, the yolks are a miracle because they have all sorts of emulsification

[11:48] properties, aside from the fact that they're delicious. Um, so I would, I would say that unless you have a specific need to get rid of uh, the egg yolks that you should keep on using

[12:03] them because they're delicious. So what am I losing by not eating the yolk? In terms of taste? And terms of nutritional values. I'd have to look it up. I mean, there's, I'd have to look up what's, what's in it, like what, uh, I'm sure that there's some sort of, uh, like awesome list of, you know, vitamins and minerals and whatnot that are in the

[12:25] yolk. I don't I don't normally keep that stuff like rolling in the front of my head because I'm much more concerned with the yolk as a functional unit in cooking. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But, you know, my my feeling is that, you know, uh, the chicken doesn't grow from the white alone. The chicken grows from the egg yolk and egg white. I mean, the egg white is also a miracle because it's got like interesting antibacterial properties. It's one of the only, um, it's one of the only things that we eat that, uh, comes naturally alkaline, you know, basic in nature as opposed to acidic, uh,

[13:01] so it's got, it's got some really interesting properties. Um, but, you know, I would never, you know, I would never break them. I would never eat an egg white only omelette, for instance. Never. Understood. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you. All right. So what were you talking about? We were talking about muffins. muffins. Muffins. In the muffin method. sugar is treated as a wet ingredient. I understand that this is possible because the sugar dissolves readily in water, but what's the actual benefit of doing

[13:33] that? Would there be any difference in the final product if I treated my sugar as a dry ingredient instead of a wet ingredient? Thanks from David. That's interesting. I mean, um, I, I, I don't, I don't know. I mean, it's, one of the reasons, as you say, to put it in there, is that it dissolves readily, whereas all of the things that are in the dry ingredient list aren't really soluble in the liquid, but I don't really know if there would be any difference in the final product if you do one way or the

[14:06] other. I doubt that you would hinder the hydration of your product too much. Perhaps if you used, perhaps the sugar wouldn't dissolve as readily, if there was other things competing and swelling with water, and so you actually want the sugar dissolved more. But I think it might be 601, half a dozen to the other. You know, I've never, I've never really thought about it. I would try it. I would make 2 batches of muffins and see whether they come out any differently. I mean, the that that method doesn't use any, for instance, whipping power of granulated

[14:40] sugar. It's not like creaming or any of these other things where you're using the power of the

[14:44] sugar as an actual aerating agent. So I don't really think it would make that much of a difference. But I could be wrong. Maybe the sugar won't dissolve if you do it that way because it doesn't have enough setting time for dissolve

[14:54] out, and your flour won't hydrate the same way, and the whole thing will be a big massive crud with little sugar specs in it. Maybe. don't know. What do you think, Stas? You ever messed with the way you don't make muffins, do you? You're a muffin hater. You like muffins. No, I just don't bake. You don't have time to bake. Don't have time to bake. Your whole life, you've never had time to bake. used to. All right, so... Hey, it's my anniversary with you. Really? Yeah. What was that little secret? You don't care. I didn't say that. Yeah, you did. You said, you don't care. I saw you yesterday. And it's 4 years. Oh, 4 years? All right. So just so you know, she says that working with a cooking guy has stopped her from having the time to

[15:35] bake. Right? Is that what you're fundamentally saying? Who is the one at work who will never step into the kitchen and actually do cooking work with us?

[15:44] Whenever I cook anything for lunch, you're like, what is that? She's talking about the last year where she brings in leftovers and like heats it up. I'm talking about like all the years at the French culinary where we're like, oh my god, we have all this stuff to do in the kitchen. She's like, nope. Nope. And now she's saying that she doesn't have time to cook now that she works at home. Oh, I see. I see. All right. Dandy calls in from St. Louis regarding Applebee's, or as he puts it, Crapplebee's. You like that? Oh, that's what I used to call it. Yeah? I think a lot of people used to go. I mean, it's kind of a sad. It's kind of like, I won't get into it, but like, can you believe that they named a chain restaurant Fud Ruckers? I mean, it's kind of, it's a strange one. Anyway, Dave Hammer at all. I been asked to recreate an appetizer sampler platter. That's a tongue twister. Appetizer sampler platter based on the menu at Applebee's. The party hosts always think the food sounds good, but when it stinks, as it always does, they say they've been

[16:37] crapple bead. Listen, this is not my opinions, by the way. This is Dan D from St. Louis, Missouri, talking here. Not my opinion. I have not ever been to an Applebee's, so I can't Never? Never. Wow. Yeah. After looking at the menu, and they have proposed, they gave a link to it, you can just go to applebee's.com if you're interested in looking at their appetizer menu. I decided to make wonton tacos with a Dobo style chicken. Uh, presumably not like Filipino, whatever. Uh, fried fish, uh, fried fresh mozzarella, and pretzels with beer cheese dip. That would be good. Pretzels with beer cheese dip. I mean, I don't really, do you like soft pretzel stars? Yeah? I like soft pretzels. I do, although I'm more of a hard pretzel aficionado, but I do like a good soft pretzel. I bought some sodium citrate from modernistpantry.com and use this recipe, HTTP, www,

[17:29] chow.com recipes, blah, blah, blah, perfectly melting cheese. It's on chow. Setting aside the combination of cups, grams, and ounces in the recipe. It was far too thick for pourable cheese sauce. Should I just decrease the amount of cheese slash increase the liquid, or the amount of sodium citrate? Also, any suggestions for frying fresh mozzarella? My thought was to do a standard double dip kind of fry and test the mozzarella at room temp versus straight out of the fridge, but I wonder if I'm overlooking something. Love the show and I hate raps as well, Dandy. Well, uh, much as I don't know if I can cosign on

[18:00] uh, the, um, on the recreation of the Applebee's menu. The, what I would say on the sodium citrate on the cheese thing is, is you have to

[18:08] assess, the sodium citrate is going to increase the meltability and the

[18:14] flowability and the, and the granularity of it. So it's a melting salt that's going to allow the casing to become smooth. So if your product is smooth, right? But just too thick, then I would add a liquid. If it's smooth as silk, but just too, but, but, um, sorry. If it's smooth as silk but too thick, add liquid. If it's clumpy or has some problem with texture other than actual viscosity, then you're having a problem with your emulsifying

[18:47] salt. That makes sense, does? Yeah. Now, on the mozzarella. Whenever I make mozzarella, I do flour coat 1st in case to pick up any extra moisture, double dip, and then I fry it extremely

[18:59] cold so that I get a crust forming before the cheese starts melting out.

[19:04] I have never tried any sort of much higher tech thing like dusting it in methocell or anything like that. But, you know, you lose, what, like one in 10 mozzarella steaks, one in 15 mozzarella steaks when you fry them out. Another interesting thing you can fry is they make a, if you want to go a little off menu there

[19:22] is, um, in South America, Well, in, in, what is it, Middle East, I guess? They make something called hallumi, which is a grillable cheese, hallumi good cheese, I think it says on the package. And in, uh, in Latin America, they make something called queso para Frier that you can fry. And that stuff, you can literally deep fry that sucker without a coating on

[19:43] it. It doesn't melt out. And it's delicious, except when it cools down, it gets squeaky like you're chewing on Styrofoam. You got to eat that sucker hot out of the fryer or hot off the grill. But I highly recommend trying queso queso potter fierre or halloumi. It's really good with a little oil drizzle over the top, salt, pepper, grilled or fried. But back on your mozzarella, just coat that sucker like a demon, have it be cold. fry it till it's crisp. Uh, and then if you need to, uh, you know, you can throw it in an oven to melt out the inside, a little more of the problem. The most frying setups is that they batter

[20:15] the the mozzarella around, you want to be really gentle with it and not do a lot of manipulation because if you break the crust at any point, you're going to get a leaker and then you're toasted.

[20:24] Right stuff? Don't you hate baking mozzarella sticks? Do you like mozzarella sticks? Marinara sauce? Do you like fried kamari? What was the way that idiot pronounced calamari that time? You don't want anyway? Yeah, that's anyway, there you go. Connor Kerrigan writes in cooking issues. Have you ever made stock from freeze dried protein, a la David Chang's Mind of a Chef. Can I easily find freeze dried products? Yes, you can find freeze dried products, but no, I have never made stock from freeze dried stuff. I looked a little bit into it. I haven't spoken to Dave about this personally. I mean, I would I don't know the advantage of a freeze dried stock product except for the relative speed of

[21:04] extraction. In other words, I don't know what would go on in the freeze drying of it that would actually increase

[21:08] the ultimate total flavor extraction you could get from it. So I need to talk to him and see, see what it is. But no, I've never tried it. That was an easy one to answer, right? Answer is no, boom. Okay. Wait, should we take what time is it? You want to take a break? Let's go to our 1st commercial break. Cooking issues.

[22:16] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hands are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world class, aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire

[22:42] pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit www.surifarms.com. And welcome back to cooking issues. We have a caller, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, how you doing? All right. This is Christian from Michigan. Got a question for you. Two. Well, actually, 2 questions seemingly unrelated. Have you ever used the AeroPress as a means of being a clarifier? So, uh, how you use the um, cheese cloth? Could you use an arrow press to do the clarification? Okay, so, uh, what we're talking about, AeroPress is the relatively inexpensive coffee maker that uses a moderate amount of

[23:30] pressure. It looks like a giant modified syringe, um, accurate so far. And so when you're saying, when you're saying clarification, I generally don't do, uh, I don't clarify via filtration, I use

[23:42] cheesecloth for only for, um, holding back solids in something, let's say, like an Agar raft or in a gelatin raft.

[23:54] And most of that when you're doing it, you're not, it's not that the pressure that's holding you back, it's the ultimate kind of leak rate you can get out of the

[24:04] raft, and when you increase the pressure too much, You actually can start forcing product through your filter medium. What I actually use in those situations to increase the pressure just the right amount without causing

[24:17] problems, squeeze through or clogging, is I use a salad spinner. So I'll put stuff in like a, in like a super bag or in like a, like a linen napkin, and I'll tie the neck off, like a sack, throw it in a salad spinner, and just spin it a bunch. And that and that one... And then I'll free up the mesh by picking it up and just rubbing gently the cloth together against yourself to free the pores out and then spinning it again. And you very rarely get any

[24:43] Agar bleed through when you do that. Oh, okay. That's a much easier idea. I don't drink coffee, so I don't have an arrow press. Ah, there you go. Well, save your, save yourself the purchase. Although they do work well. I used to bring all sorts of complicated stuff, but now when I travel, I usually bring the

[24:59] arrow press with me just because it's easy to carry. Cool. So the 2nd question is, have you ever done a DIY project for making

[25:07] a, like a deep freeze unit? Like, how deep freeze? Like, so taking like a commercial blower unit and making your own kind

[25:19] of, uh, I'm just looking to do like a rapid freeze unit without spending like 4 grand on a, on a true

[25:25] commercial uh, freezer unit to get meat down the temperature quickly.

[25:31] I hear my thoughts on that. So you're talking about prepared meats or pre- or pre-cooking or post-cooking? Uh pre-cooking. In bags? So yep. Okay. I would definitely do this. to answer your question first. I have not I've often thought about installing just like fan units inside my normal freezer to try and increase the rate of freezing a little bit because the air

[25:57] is stagnant in there and the freeze rates are abysmal. The problem is, as opposed to a commercial blast freezer. I mean, you wouldn't want a fan going in there all the time because it's going to accelerate the drying effects that you're going to have in there, right? But, um, Commercial blast freezer not only

[26:12] has like a large amount of air circulation, large amount, but it also has

[26:16] a, uh, a huge cooling, uh, you know, a huge cooling output to match it.

[26:22] So, you know, your freezer is not freezing at its fastest possible rate because it doesn't have air circulation or very much air circulation, but there is

[26:34] a still a maximum rate at which your freezer can freeze because of the actual amount of cooling power that's being applied to the freezing box.

[26:42] And so that's the part that's kind of hard to get around, is the fact that it's only ever going to put a certain number of watts of cooling per hour into your product.

[26:51] You know what I'm saying? Or pull out of it. What I would do is put your product in zippies, ice and salt is very fast and

[27:01] can freeze down to, you know, minus, I forget what it is off the top of my head, but

[27:06] something like -17 or something like that. You know, it can freeze ice cream rock solid. And so you can do a very rapid, uh, freezing in a concentrated saltwater

[27:18] brine and then, and you could possibly even store that brine in your freezer. Like, if you had a freezer, you were going to dedicate to this, you could possibly store a saturated salt brine in the freezer, tune the freezer, so it just wants to stay where it is.

[27:32] And then you're storing a boatload of energy in the partially crystallized ice and then the

[27:37] salt water brine. And that sucker would freeze your stuff very very quickly. Yeah, so then that, so then that saltwater brine would bring down the ambient temperature in the freezer compartment as well

[27:49] then too. Well, so what you would do is, is you would use the, you would use the freezer over time to slowly add the energy, right, to make your, to make your brine,

[28:01] and then it would not fully freeze until it got, well, you'd have to do some calculations on your

[28:08] tectic freezing point to get it to work just right. But what you really want to do is store a bunch of ice at a temperature below freezing, have the freezer slowly input that energy over time, such that when you throw your meat in bags into the brine, it can very

[28:22] rapidly cool it, right? And then you have the rest of the time to keep storing that energy again. Do you know what I'm saying? Does that make sense? Yeah, that's pretty cool. Sweet. Well thanks for your help as usual. All right. Well, good luck and let us know what happens. Sounds good. Have a good one. All right. All right. Colin writes in about Popsicles in Britain. He says the Brits. I haven't heard from Colin in a while. The Brits invented a curious concoction called the Jelly Baby's wobbly lolly, another tongue twister. Jelly, jelly baby's wobbly lolly. And by the way, he adds, it's a popsicle or ice lolly. They call him ice lollies, I guess, in UK. That's an absurd word. Ice lolly. Would you ever say ice lolly, Pedro? I'd say ice lolly. Ice lolly. Maybe in reference to like music video or something. Music? Oh, yeah. Well there you go. It's an ice lolly that gets floppy when it melts thanks to Guar and Xanthan, although I have to

[29:19] say in advance, reading the rest is, I don't think it's, well, we'll talk about it. You can look at it on this YouTube thing, which is going to be incomprehensible to you, but we'll get it out there on the web somehow. You can imagine that there are many more, and if you look at it, it's a little kid with, like, what amounts to some sort of fudgical thing that wobbles

[29:39] around, like, uh, like, uh, what are those things called that you make out of Jell-O, the Knox blocks? They call them jigglers, right? So it's kind of like a mix between a fugs, fudgicle and a jiggler, and he's sitting there wobbling it back and forth. But Colin, of course, points out what is probably obvious to you. You can imagine there are many more semi-obcene videos featuring young women eating these pops. Uh, I will leave it at that. Here are the ingredients for lime flavor in honor of the limies that created them. Water, sugar, fruit juice, concentrate, 25%. strawberry and lime. Stabilizers, Xanthan gum, guargum, hydrolyzed pea protein, and salt, natural flavoring, acidity regulator, citric acid, and color, spinach extract, chlorospry chlorophyll.

[30:22] Stas put the vegan face on for that one. Does the hydrolyzed protein player roll in the wobble? I seen it used as a protein supplement or to boost flavor via glutamic acid, but does it have a texture modifying properties as well? If you were to take a stab at a recipe to recreate these popsicles? What gum concentrations would you start with? Finally, have you made any other curiously textured frozen treats besides your world-famous potato

[30:42] mock selepton derma? May the wobble be with you, Colin? First of all, yeah, the other one I've done also a sell-up rip-off is a mixture of guar and gelan, low asyl gelan, that that sucker also has a snap to it. I really like, and that one you can light on fire, which is awesome, and it doesn't melt because you make a fluid gel from the

[31:03] geland and so it doesn't melt down. And that, tons of chefs have made gel and fluid gel ice creams. It's like, you know, man, man, I'm going to make a fluid gel ice cream. Man, man, it's like let it on fire. Mac. But when you add the guar, that's when you get the weird textural properties,

[31:17] Guar and Jelen, which I still have only studied in frozen form. I don't really know why it works. We did it by accident. It happens. Anyway. What's going on here is it's not actually the Xanthan Guar that's causing that. Xanthan LBG, which is a close relative of Guar, will form a weird gel, but as far as I know, Xanthan Guar does not have that same synergism. What you're looking at here is actually, I believe, a synergism between Guargum and the hydrolyzed pea protein, hydrolyzed pea protein is a protein that's used because it has relatively neutral flavor, it's relatively

[31:52] inexpensive and can be subbed in for things that might otherwise have like kind of a nasty flavor or people might not want for like soy protein or other protein

[32:01] isolates or like milk protein or dairy protein isolates. So, uh, turns out, I looked up on the inner webs. And there is a, uh, uh, someone named Tamara, uh, Ronadhira had in uh, year 2000, her master's thesis in uh, Manitoba was enhanced gelation of field

[32:20] p proteins through formation of multi-component systems using various polysaccharides. And guess which one had the most wobbly, it's

[32:28] pea protein and ding, ding, ding, guar. So it's the guar and the pea protein together that are doing what we need to do in this situation. I don't, the Xanthan's probably just there, um, I guess to add some more body. I don't know whether it's there from a stabilizing standpoint because I couldn't find really fast what the free staw characteristics were of this. But, and also the one thing I don't know is how melting your mouth these systems are. But what you're looking at there is a pea protein guar thing, which I believe has to be heated for it to work before it's frozen, but I don't

[33:00] know because I couldn't find out. But these these pops, I'm surprised they weren't advertised as protein pops because most of the p protein things that I've looked at were in the high range, like 10%

[33:12] or a little more protein. Uh, so anyway, if anyone else has any information on these pea protein popsicles, pea protein popsicles.

[33:19] We have alliteration all day today. You know what I'm saying? Give us a holler. Okay. Patrick Ciccone writes in on... Hey, you're Italian. you pronounce that Ciccone, right? Okay. Hey look, I got something right. On muscles and mollusks. Deer cooking issues, gangs. Thanks for your answer about preserving bluefish last week. I'll report back the results. It got me to rereading the fish chapter in Harold McGee, always a good idea, by the way, to reread any chapter in one of Harold McGee's books. I'm going to see him soon. We're doing the Harvard lecture together. And a little bit of secret. It's not a secret. You know, I think all of you know who have been following the MOFAD and the puffing gun that we like, the puffing gun. Well, we, at Booker and Dax, equipment corporation, have purchased our own mini puffing guns so that we can do, we can now do commercial puffing

[34:05] experiments. Although the Chinese one complete, you know, it's whatever. It just comes completely unsafe. There are no, when I say unsafe, there are no safeties in it. So like our puffing gun, even though it was designed in the museum's puffing gun, even though it was designed in the 40s,

[34:21] 39 actually, and made, you know, in the 50s, still has like all kinds of safety valves on it. so that you don't die. This sucker comes and it comes at styles, what that box look like? It was like all beaten to hell, right? Like the stuff falling out, literally stuff falling out of it, like all

[34:36] crazy, and they just expect you to like want this thing together and put it up to 180

[34:41] PSI and then hit it with a big old stick with no protections at all and no safety.

[34:45] So we haven't fired it yet because we're busy constructing big, massive safety cages and like blow off valves and stuff like that. I don't even know why I was sick of it. Oh, because I'm hoping to take that to Harvard so that McGee and I can fire that for the Harvard class at the beginning of

[34:58] the school year. Any, we'll let you know. Okay. Um, that's just because he said McGee. See what happens? See what kind of tangents I go on. I noticed that in the shellfish section, McGee says it's possible to cook the catch muscles of shellfish, i.e. those knobby muscles left on the shell of a clam or

[35:15] oyster and not typically eaten since they are so tough. This is on page 224 of the 2004 edition in the

[35:21] subsession, Tender Quick, tough catch. So I could not, I'll tell you what it says there. also paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me. I could not find any references to cooking the catch muscles anywhere else besides McGee. I was wondering if cooking via prolonged low temperature method might transform them into something delicious. I know you always warn against fish turning into mush with this method, but

[35:41] it, but this muscle seems unlike anything else in the fish world, at least in terms of toughness. I'm always disappointed when I throw away what looks like a tiny scallop attached to the

[35:49] shell and I'm now imagining this muscle transformed into something with real flavor and

[35:53] texture, a scallop with the flavor of a clam, for example. Also, congrats to the MoFad Puffer launch. I'm sorry I missed the gun. I don't know if the museum is looking for a brick and mortar space anytime soon, but I have some ideas, so we should have Peter contact him. Anyway. So, I reread it. And in fact, it's quite interesting. So whenever you take, let's say, muscle or anything apart, there's always that little tough part attached to the shell. You know what we're talking about? or when you shuck a clam, so is that right? And so the adductor muscle, which is the main muscle in bivalves, i.e. 2 valves,

[36:26] i.e. 2 shells. The main muscle, the adductor, is broken up into a couple of different types. One is meant for quick closing, right? And that's the one that we normally eat. Scallops are really good at that because they flap their shells open and shoot themselves across the bottom of the ocean.

[36:42] So they have big, fast, you know, adductor muscles. And then a portion of the adductor muscle is designed to do what's called catch. And what that is, is like when you walk up to a clam and you're like, oh, yo, clam. And you try to open it, and it goes, whoa, and closes, and then you can't pry that sucker open, and even though it's been sitting there for like

[37:00] hours or days, you can't pry it open, that is because of the specialized muscles that are called catch muscles.

[37:06] And they're extremely interesting and they're tough. Uh, and so McGee does, in fact, say that you can, uh, uh, through long and slow cooking tenderize it. And I haven't tested this and I couldn't find a lot of reference to it over the web, but it's worth trying, but I did do some more research on that.

[37:23] And it turns out that there's a lot of scientific study on catch muscles in bivalves, mollusks, and other arthropods because they

[37:35] are able to maintain their rigidity, their contraction, even though they don't use a lot of energy for a long, long time. And so it turns out that there is a giant protein. So we have giant proteins in our muscles. They're called Titan type, but with an eye, not T-I-T-A-N, T-I-T-I-N, Titan, that is forms kind of

[37:56] a part of the elasticity of our muscle, and it's actually the largest protein known. And there's a there's a related protein in uh, mollusks called um, called Twitchin, believe it or not. And that protein, the state of that protein allows the muscle to lock shut without expending any extra energy over very, very long periods of time. And it's unique kind of it's from invertebrate muscles. And it was just figured out in 1997. In fact, if you go on Wikipedia and you look up Myasin. It still, it still says that, that these muscles have their catch response based on, um, on

[38:35] paramycin, which is an invertebrate only, uh, mycin type, with not true. It's just twitching stuff. The article you might want to read. I don't know if I have a link to it on my page to tell you on my paper here to tell you about, but go Google

[38:47] it because here's what's interesting. I can't figure out any references to how to disable that just by

[38:53] cooking because it's not a standard kind of collagen breakdown problem. But I gotta look at it. So it's very interesting, and when I see McGee, I'm going to ask him more about it. And sorry I didn't have a full answer, right? Anyway, I was like, I don't really care. I don't care. Alex writes in. Oh, by the way, I have a couple of questions on inductions. I'm going to combine them, all right? C wrote in about induction and Alex wrote in about induction. Um, I'll do I'll do C's first. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Joe. Great show. After I discovered modest cuisine at home. I found your show, I've been blasting through the archives. Been a home brewer for about 5 years, and chemistry of beer got me very interested in food. I converted my brew system, DIY style to all electric a couple years ago and have not looked back. I you know, I stopped brewing 8 years ago. Last time I brewed was just before Dax was born. Anyway, my 2nd son. To all electrical beers, haven't looked back. After learning about low temp cooking and sous vide in modernist cuisine, I built my 1st immersion circulator with spare parts I had laying around the brew house. It worked great, but I wanted something insulated with a cover that was a little larger. Um, I built my 2nd immersion circulator for an arts fest party at Penn State, and

[40:04] the Lions. I knew I'd never been there. I've always wanted to go to their dairy program over there. Here's really good. You ever been to Penn State? That's where my grandfather went. Yeah. Uh, where I uh, I retrofitted one of those igloo max cold 150 quart coolers with a 5,500 watt water heater element and a Ranko temp controller and backpack £30 of ribs. Each rack individually, of course, and cooked them at 143 Fahrenheit for 48 hours, then

[40:26] finished them on a really hot Weber charcoal grill with woodchips. They were delicious, and I did indeed look like a rock star. I recently tossed out the fry daddy I bought in college. Good move. Friday, good starter, not a good, I mean, look, I'm not knowing, no insult to a fried daddy corporation, not enough power in a fried daddy, an inappily name. It should be called like, you know, Fried Jr. or like Fried Baby, Fried Baby. It should be called fried baby. It very small. In no way the daddy of deep fryers. I recently tossed out my fried daddy that I bought in college. I'm intrigued by your French fry process, my French fry process is a pain in the butt. It like involves like enzymatic treatment, then blanching, then some drying, depending on what the size of the fry is, then freezing, then twice frying.

[41:07] Anyway. Um, I'm intrigued by your French fry process and want to also become the monk of the fry or whatever you call it. You've touched on induction cooktops in a couple of episodes. I have a gas range for my normal cooking. I was wondering what you thought about the standalone induction cooktops available now. All right, so wait, I'm being told that I'm going to take a caller and then come back and answer this question about induction. Sure. Do you say there's color? Color, you're on the air. Hey, David, it's Brian in San Francisco. How you doing? Doing well. Good. Good, good. Um, question. So over the weekend, I tried to make some, um, banana pudding.

[41:44] The flavors were delicious, but I, you know, the recipe I used called for some

[41:49] cornstarch. So it ended up tasting a little bit, I guess, gritty. Um, and all the, the, the recipes I've seen for, you know, vanilla pudding or butterscotch pudding or banana, uh, a lot of them seem to call

[42:04] for, um, some kind of, uh, of starch mixed in. Um, so, you know, I made a, a slurry before I, I, I mixed it

[42:11] in and um, there were no lumps, but it didn't have the kind of same smoothness that, I really

[42:20] wanted. And one thing that I saw was that after you kind of finish it after it sets, if you continue to stir it too much, then that might, uh, cause

[42:33] some, some grittiness. So I'm wondering, a, should I continue using, um, for my puddings of starch, uh,

[42:40] like, like corn starch or, or tapioca starch or something? Um, or what's uh, what's a better method? Huh. Well, you know, I don't do a lot of, um, I don't do a lot of puddings, but all the ones that I have done are with the

[42:57] cornstarch. I gonna tell you what I'm gonna do, Stas. See, if you can get Piper to call in, because he's worked on all those pudding stuff. What? Oh, Piper's not around. I'll tell you what. I'll research. I'll research some putting stuff for you and we'll get back to you next week. Can you tweet it into me so I can drop it into my inbox for next week? I'll tweet it into reminding you about the puddings. All right, because I don't feel that I don't feel comfortable enough to answer you on puddings right off the top of my head. I'm going to look up some data on grittiness in it, but all the ones I've made,

[43:28] typically I do. I do the old-fashioned cornstarchy ones. So I'll look into, also, tweet me the recipe that you used if you have it so we can troubleshoot that. I'll read it to you. Piper's my pudding man. Thanks so much. No problem. We'll get to it next week. Thanks so much. Okay, back to induction. I have a gas range for my normal cooking. I was wondering what you thought about the standalone induction cooktops available now. The infomercial new wave one can be had for $50. Have you seen this infomercial? New wave is an oven that they make some sort of what I think, I could tell from their advertising, is a kind of a home impingement oven, like a fast air impingement oven, but they also make something called a PIC precision induction

[44:10] cooktop. But, you know, I'm dubious of any of the of the infomercial stuff. Unless it's a Billy Mays product. God bless Billy. May he rest in peace, right? You know I love Billy Mays. his voice. I would buy anything. It's like, you know, it's like Billy Mays. I would buy from him. I'd buy, you know, pretty much whatever Snoop Dogg tries to sell except for those awful liquor beverages that he repped. Okay. The new infomercial new wave one can be had for like $50. Since you can supposedly control the temperature rather accurately with these things, could it supplant a dedicated fryer for the home kitchen? No, is it powerful enough to keep a decent volume of oil at 375 or is it just another piece of TV infomercial junk? I don't know. I don't never used it. I don't know whether it's high quality. It does appear to have a bunch of nice functionality, but any attempt to use. Well, we'll get into this. Okay. Alternatively, can you recommend a model that you think would work for this application? Forgive me if you've already answered this question. Thanks. Keep up the good work and I'll be visiting both reverters and Booker and Dax the next time I'm in the city. And another question on induction in from Alex. Great show. Thanks for doing it. I was looking into getting started in induction cooking, but there seems to be a fair amount of incomplete or misinformation out there on the

[45:19] internets. I even noticed that ModernistCuisine.com recommends a Max Burton model, but has a picture of a Mr. Induction at the top of the page. I am confused. What kind of power size features will I want? As long as you're throwing out recommendations. Is there any brand of pots and pans you particularly like on induction burners and burners? Is that the right word? Cooktops? They don't know. Oh, by the way, in England, going back to the ice lolly folks, they call them hobs, but I don't know anyone in the U.S. that calls their burner a

[45:44] hob. Do you? Would you like to be, would does that sound gross to you, Hobb? Yeah. Yeah, Stas doesn't like Hobb. I would just keep calling it a burner, but if you're from the UK, you can call it an induction hub. Like Thomas Hobbs? Well, no, no, one B. HOB, like corn on the hob. Corn on the hob. Yeah. Like throw the corn on the cob in the pan. on the hob. Yeah, yeah, like that. Uh, okay. I will save my questions about the differences between a CVAP and a combi oven for another day. Thanks, Alex. because we will run out of time before I can get to that. Uh, although I can, hey, we will. anyway, whatever. Okay, so look. On all of your induction questions. First, uh, Max Burton, interesting thing about the Max Burton. There is a, I own one. I haven't started using it yet. All of those kind of small induction things are my guess relatively the same, meaning they all have relatively the same power output. I think they're roughly 1500 watts, 15 to 1800

[46:41] watts, but you can't use a straight wattage output. And the reason that's why they are is because in the US, everything is designed to be run comfortably off of a 15

[46:51] amp 120 volt wall socket. And so most companies are very loath to, on a consistent basis, pull more than about 1500 watts out of the wall. A little more. Uh, you know, anything more than that, and you're going to get into a commercial unit that uses 220

[47:10] volts. And then you can start putting bigger wires in, you're going to have a much thicker cord, and then you can start pulling more wattage out. So if you were going to get an induction range in your house to supplant having a regular gas or

[47:21] electric range, that's going to have a much bigger set of wires going to it. You can get a lot more power to it. Now, you cannot equate. You cannot equate the wattage directly to the wattage of an electric

[47:33] heater because it is boatloads more efficient, just tons more efficient. Um, and so it's very hard and you can't really equate it to gas because it's a lot more efficient than gas.

[47:44] Now, a very, very high output, uh, sorry, a very, very high output commercial gas burner will boil faster than one of these Mr. Burton

[47:54] things. But the average, even semi-pro home gas burner will not boil water as quickly as a decent home induction

[48:05] unit. And that's really the method. that's really what you want to test. How fast is it going to put heat into my product? The other great thing about induction, I've said this many times that I love, is that it's not going to heat up your whole kitchen because it's only heating the pan.

[48:18] That said, you need to have pans that work well with the induction. And most pans, you can tell whether they've worked well with induction. You know 12nd when you put it down or not, whether it's going to work, but you know, a lot of new modern pans can work with induction, but you should check to make sure.

[48:32] I don't have any particular one that I love or don't love, but I will tell you this. The thing that sucks about cooking with induction is that whenever you put a pan down on an induction burner. The induction burner sits there and tries to figure out what's being put on it. And so at 1st it makes this weird noise while it's trying to cycle through figuring out what the exact kind of frequency wants to hit your

[48:55] pan with to get the maximum, you know, heating out of it. And by the way, for those of you that are looking up heating, induction heating in general can be done on any metal,

[49:05] right? Because you're dealing with what's called I squared R loss, which is literally just like the power of resistance or heating it, but with an induction

[49:12] cooking, cooking. You're not just doing that. You're using what's called the historesis loss of ferromagnetic materials to increase the effect of the induction thing going.

[49:23] So that's why it's really only pans that are special for induction that will work. Whereas if you look up induction furnaces, you can easily do things like melt aluminum with them.

[49:32] So that's the that's the dealio. But the special effect of induction only works up till what's called the

[49:38] curry point of the metal. And that's why, for instance, I can't make or have not been able to make an induction version of my red hot poker

[49:44] yet because the induction heating elements that you get will not heat things up to those levels.

[49:49] Just a little aside in case anyone gives a crap. Now, back to induction heating. So the irritating thing about induction is, is it's constantly scanning for a pan. And if it doesn't find the pan, it goes ape on you. And so instead of just keeping the power there, it cycles off and on and gives you little weird error messages. So whenever you lift the pan to do a saute, it makes a little weird noises and it's irritating to get used to. You notice that stuff? You've never lifted the pan while you were cooking on it. You cook on induction every day. Oh, that thing, yeah. Yeah, I don't like it. It also doesn't have very good feedback, but it's fantastic, especially in pastry

[50:24] cations, and they're getting, they're getting better and better. As for your Max Burton. The interesting thing about the Max Burton one is if you find these people on the webs called

[50:31] open schemes.com. They have ripped apart, hacked, and described the circuit of that particular Max Burton

[50:38] model, and it is particularly easy to tweak. Now don't, because it's dangerous. I don't want to hear that you electrocuted yourself because Dave Arnold told you to tweak it. I want you to go read open schemes website and blame them if you electrocute yourself. But I will say that they give detailed explanations of how to dork with that circuit. And so I have plenty of projects out there where I really want to mess with induction. And so if I'm going to do that, I'm going to do it with that Max Burton one. But you have to get a very specific Max Burton one. Okay, back to the question of frying on an induction. Here's the issue. Temperature control is not the name of the game in frying. It is temperature recovery. So what you need is not something that is going to, um, you know, keep a very accurate behind temperature, but one that as soon as the temperature

[51:24] drops, just hits the oil with full force power until it gets back up and even maybe slightly above where you want to

[51:32] go. That's the hallmark of a good fryer. And that's why PID control is not a good way to control the fryer. Now, maybe these folks have figured out some awesome way to, um,

[51:43] to, like, program a fry cycle into their thing whereby it knows it's a fryer. So it goes into bang, bang, i.e. off on control like a fryer does, and just hits the oil like a ton of bricks with full power as soon as it drops below their temperature. But I don't know. You know, they're not, they can't possibly be doing the job that I want because they're measuring it through the pan, through the

[52:03] oil, instead of measuring the oil, which is what I want you to do. They're measuring the temperature of the pan through the top of the heating element, which is not very fast. So they're not going to get very fast response time. So I'm guessing that they're not going to be super aggressive with the oil, which is what you want. The other problem with cooking on a stovetop. And I've said this and I'll keep saying it. Stovetop frying is never, ever going to be as good as commercial

[52:30] tube, like a tube fryer frying because you don't have a cold zone.

[52:35] Whenever you are heating from the bottom, particles are falling off of your

[52:39] food, sinking to the bottom of the pan and scorching at the bottom and ruining the

[52:43] oil. And also when you're heating from the bottom, you don't have a ton of surface area in contact with the oil. And so you have a lot of local overheating of the oil and it's problematic. You really want, if you really want to do frying right. You want to get yourself a tube fryer. And I've been and what happens there, the tubes have a huge surface area. And also there's what's called a cold zone underneath it. And I've been so that your particles fall through the hot zone into the cold zone and don't scorch out.

[53:08] And I've been, no one makes a small one or a home one. don't really know why I don't know why. Anyway. Uh, hope that answers your question. We, I looks like, are we out of time or we're good? We have 2 minutes. All right. Alex writes in deer cookie issues team. Thanks for your help on the pressure cooker question. I sent a couple weeks ago. I recently came across an article online that suggested dry salting poultry instead of brining it. Obviously, you would lose the benefit of drawing more water into the meat, but really, isn't it kind of equivalent to watering down your

[53:33] meat is dry salting, an alternative. If so, how much salt should be used for giving weight of meat, poultry, and fish? Any ideas about how long it would take would also be much appreciated. Thanks, Alex. All right, look, I like, look, here's the deal. If you're going to brine your meat, the reason to brine your meat is because you're going to take the meat above the temperature, which is going to start losing moisture, right? That's why we do it. One. Two to get salt into the meat. Now, if you're not gonna overcook the meat, you don't necessarily need to add a lot of water to it. However, you will be drawing water out of it by salting it because if you're doing a dry salting, you will pull liquid out and then the liquid will fall down, right? Whereas if you brought away from your product, unless it's brine, you know, bat bagged in there. If you're brining it, it will take up a little bit of extra water, but usually if you're going to overcook your product, you're going to lose too much water anyway, that's one of the reasons you

[54:20] brined because the stuff wasn't moist enough when you came when you were done with it. So you needed it to pick up that extra moisture. Now, if you're not going to overcook it, then sure, you're salting it just for flavor. But, uh, I don't have a problem. When I do a light brine, first, it's a light brine for flavor. you're brining a fish, you're also brining a fish because, okay, brining for flavor, there's brining for, uh, and brining for

[54:43] flavor you can do by salting on the outside. The problem with salting on the outside is it tends to be relatively concentrated on the outside. So unless you wipe it off and then let it equilibrate for a long time, you're going to get an overly salty outside and undersalt it inside, whereas a brine lets you be a little more gentle in your salt contact, just saying. And if you've ever tasted your brine that you've thrown your chicken into or your turkey afterwards. You know what it tastes like? Like salt water with a little bit of blood in it. You're not like sucking a lot of flavor out of your product. So your only real gripe is the water that you're putting into it, right? So sure, if you're flavoring, if you're brining for flavor, sure, dry salt it a little bit, and

[55:17] then, you know, wipe it off, let it equilibrate for a little while, so it's not too salty on the

[55:21] outside, and maybe you're going to be in luck, right? Or maybe not. Maybe it may be too salty on the outside. If you're brining because you're worried you're going to overcook it, then you want to add the extra moisture to

[55:30] it, as well as get the salt in there because the salted proteins hold on to moisture better than the unsalted ones do. Okay? So there, it's, I mean, whatever. If you're going to overcook it, you want to add the moisture, period. The 3rd reason to brine something out on something like fish is because if you cook fish that hasn't been brined, especially with low temperature, you get too much of that white protein crap bubbling out of the fish and it spoils the appearance of the surface and a light brining will take care of that for you and stop that from

[55:58] happening, and sure, you can do that by just salting the outside. If you're doing it just for flavor, I don't really have any ratios. I just go like this. You'd be, if you were looking at me, you'd be seeing my hand sprinkling salt over. I sprinkle a good coating of salt all around it and then let it sit, but I've never really measured it. Used to us? Anyway, I hope that helps. See you next week. Cooking issues.

[56:25] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.