[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.

[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking, you choose coming to your lives from Roberta's Pizzeria in the back of, no, well, we're in the back of

[0:39] Roberta's. We in Bushwick. kind of the back of Bushwick, too, though, right? Pretty much. Kind of like the butt end of... Like the back of Williamsburg and the front of Bushwick. Oh, really? You think this is the front end of Bushwick? I think people who actually live in Bushwick might disagree. don't know. I live here. Yeah, you live in industrial Bushwick or you live in Bushwick? I live in Bushwick Bushwick, like by the park. Yeah, but, I mean, this is like East Industrial Williamsburg Park. Stuff. Yeah. Well, Bushwick sounds a little more catchy than that, right? Bushwick. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah. Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. Hey, guys. How's the wine? It's good. You want to tell us what you've given us a drink? I wish I could. Wow. Yeah. Well, it's some form of oxidized wine that nastasia. By the way, here's something for all you people that she actually enjoys. She likes various varieties of oxidized wine products. Hey, look at that. I didn't even know. Like, are you a big sherry fan? Not really. I think it has something to do with the color. I like the orange color. I like the weird taste. That sounds like you. All right. So, uh, listen, this is actually a real coincidence. I don't want people to think that I'm chilling out for sponsors here because I had no idea underground meats was, is this the 1st time they're sponsoring us? Uh, 1st or second? I think maybe once or twice before, but he was here recently. Cool, dude. Nice. Well, anyway, turns out the guys from underground meets in Madtown, as I guess they like to call it, the cheese head, cheese

[2:06] head folks. Uh, you know, have you ever met, you ever hung out with people from Madison? Wisconsin? I mean, just Johnny Hunter from Underground Meats. Here's the thing about Madison, Wisconsin. I think I went once when I was a little kid because I used to go to Oshkosh for the fly-in, you know, with the EAA flying. But people from Madison freaking love it. Like everyone that went to school up there, everyone, they just, they freaking love it. You ever meet someone from Madison who's like, yeah, man. Madison. Everybody I know from Madison is obsessed with a card game called Sheep's Head. Like Sheepshead Bay, but not, but not Sheepshead Bay. It a card game. And whenever Madison people get together, they play sheep's head. What's it based on? Is it a trick-based game? No, I can't even really describe it because I always lose because I don't know how to play because I'm not from Madison. Does it involve cheese or beer? Well I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, so back to what we were talking about. Turns out, the underground meets, by the way, which is part of a larger thing of

[3:04] Majig called the underground food collective that's going on there in Madison, right?

[3:08] They have a Kickstarter, and I read about it. It's actually quite an interesting Kickstarter. So, uh, just to talk about here. First, you want to search on go to Kickstarter.com or anywhere, I guess, to Google. And search for underground, underground meets and then Kickstarter, and you'll get it right away. And it's very interesting. Here's the thing. They have a, um, they have a, uh, the right to sell their cured meat and charcuterie on a state level, right? They have Wisconsin state approval, but they want to get USDA approval so that they can sell across state

[3:42] lines, so they can approve to sell across state lines. In order to do that, you need to have what's called validated asset plants. Now, for you guys, it don't know what a Hasset plan is. Hasup stands for hazard analysis, critical control points. And it's the fundamental core. Oh, by the way, calling your question is two, 718-4972128, that's 784972128 back to Hassim. So has it, is it's the core of food safety in the United States and actually in other countries as well. And it was originally designed for the space

[4:12] program. At least this is my interpretation of it. You know, the space program, they, when they were doing that, they realized that, you know, if an astronaut got food poisoned in space, it could

[4:23] be, it could have some serious, serious, serious consequences. So, you know, you don't want the astronauts to get the runs in space because how you going to hold that stuff in? Just kidding. That's really why. They just don't want them to be sick in space. So they wanted to have a 0 tolerance policy on foodborne illness in space. And so they applied a lot of the same verification and checking

[4:43] techniques to the food that was going into the space program, as was going into the individual components, the switches, the wires, you know, the materials that were in the spacecraft themselves.

[4:53] So large companies figured out a way to, in essence, as best you can, guarantee food safety. So big, big companies were involved in this program, ones like Pillsbury. It just became the over overarching way that we do food safety in the U.S. And what it stands for is hazard analysis. You 1st have to analyze the hazards. And a hazard can be anything from maybe some person was picking fruit in a field

[5:18] somewhere and their ring fell off. And their ring fell off into, uh, this has happened to me. Not while I was picking fruit, but while I was washing dishes. Ring falls off, and then it ends up in the basket of fruit and

[5:29] thing, and then it ends up in your equipment, and then somehow ends up in your food, and then you chew on the ring, and, you know, lo and behold, you crack your tooth. Well, that's a hazard, right? So you've analyzed that hazard. Uh, and those hazards can be anything from things like actual foreign object, damage, stuff like that, foreign objects, to uh, adult, like deliberate

[5:48] adulteration by things like terrorists, which is why a lot of the has also got a big boost in terms of uh, traceability uh, after 9-11. Uh, to destroying uh, pathogens, to ensuring the cold train, all of these things are analyzing where there can be possible hazards within uh,

[6:05] the, the, the food chain all the way from the, where the wrong reading was produced until the consumer puts it in their mouth. Uh, right? Okay. Now, the, the, that's only the 1st part. You have to analyze the hazards, hazard analysis. Now you have it's called critical control point. And you say, okay, I know there's a hazard. You know, person might drop their ring into the basket of fruit that they're picking.

[6:26] Now you have to have a control point. Well, so how am I going to control to make sure that the ring doesn't make it into the apple pie. Well, let's say I put a metal detector at the front of the

[6:38] factory, when the apples come in, all the apples go through a metal detector, and if there's any metal, we make sure we take it out. That's a control point. Now, I guess they wanted a catchy thing, so they called it Hassop, because there's actually a 3rd and very important part to Hassop, and that's verification. You have to have log books and you have to be able to verify that you've checked and verify that your control points are adequately monitoring your products to ensure that they're safe.

[6:59] Hazard analysis, critical control point and verification, right? Has it. Now, uh, you know, it's, these are things that are done. For instance, modified asset plans, simple asset plans, are put in place all the

[7:10] time, and restaurants, for instance, here in New York, for sous vide cooking, but also, it's used in a much more kind of screwed down, tightened down, button down

[7:20] way industry by everyone who's a commercial food producer. Now, the issue, if you're going to get a USDA approval to do something like charcuterie, is you need what's called a validated

[7:28] asset plan, right? And what a validated asset plan is not only that you shown in theory that you have analyzed all the hazards and that you have chosen the correct critical control points and that you are verifying

[7:42] properly. You have to then prove it with an outside 3rd party source. And that costs money. Now, let me just show you something. There's an article, Jonathan Hunter from the Underground Food Collective, did an interview on food safetynews.com about this Kickstarter they're doing. What these guys are trying to do is they're trying to raise 40 grand, right? They raise the 40 grand. They can hire the outside sources to do the microbiology and do all the things to prove that the techniques that they're writing down for curing

[8:10] meats do, in fact, kill pathogens, right? They're going to, presumably, they're going to measure the salt content, the pH. I don't know if they're going to measure water activity or what. But they're going to verify that the techniques and tools that they use to verify safety for the salumi products that they're

[8:24] making. They're going to verify that those things are in fact safe. And then they have to, you pay someone to verify that for them. So here's a comment by someone named JT on the

[8:32] internet on the article on food safety diet. And I'm mentioning this because it's like classic people who make comments on the

[8:39] internet, presumably in their pajamas late at night. Well, they're sipping on their last glass of wine before they hit the bed or while they're watching Cherry Springer. They think that they can make a comment that is useful. So here's what JT said. And I'm only saying this because I want people to know kind of where this kind of comic goes wrong so you don't think the same way. Because what these guys are doing, they're asking for 40 grand. They're going to have their own validated asset plan. But then, I forgot to mention this. I should have said this right at the outset. What they're going to do is take this asset plan and then publish it so that anyone who uses the same procedures and same

[9:09] equipment can then use that same asset plan without having to shell out 40 grand.

[9:14] They're trying to make an open source kind of validated asset plan. That's the concept. Okay, look. So JT writes in incorrectly. If you understand, this is about like, why, like, I'll paraphrase JT. What do you need? What do you need 40 grand for, it has to plan to hire someone else to do, it has to plan for. That's how I imagine JT talks. Because he says, if you understand your processes and how to make them safe and clean, then you should really be able to develop your own

[9:36] Hasset plan based on the numerous guides and templates that already exist.

[9:40] See, already like a lack of understanding. Yeah, you can have a template for a theoretical haset plan, but you need a verified haset plan for specific procedures, especially something like

[9:49] salumi where you're dealing with multifactorial barriers to killing bacteria and pathogens, like water activity, salt content,

[9:57] pH, all intertwined, and time, whatever. Anyway. So, uh, you should really be able to develop your own haset plan based on the numerous guides and templates that already exist. If you need to hire a 3rd party to develop your has to play, I forget that you need to, because you need to prove it. Not only do you need to provide the actual scientific, you can go, anyone who cares to, can go on the FSIS, which is whatever it is, food safety, inspection, services, whatever, website, and read what's required to get a validated

[10:22] haset plan because it's right there on the thing. Uh, and, uh, I know, the URL is too long to read, but they, they have it there. At 1st you have to get your own scientific bolstering facts,

[10:34] right? From actual scientific literature. And if that doesn't exist, which thankfully it does in this case, but if that doesn't exist, you have to provide it. And then you have to do that and in practice prove that your type specific techniques work. Anyway, so if you need to hire a 3rd party developer has a plan, then you probably should not be in the business you're in because that means you are highly ignorant about how to safely produce your products or

[10:54] JT. You were highly ignorant about regulation. Uh, so please go check out uh, their Kickstarter. And remember, if you enjoy the ability for small producers who cannot afford to have a validated

[11:07] Hasset plan. If you would enjoy to have more of those people around in our country making delicious products or at least making products that they believe in. If you support people doing what they believe in, then you should go take a look at this Kickstarter. What do you think, Sam? Yeah. Okay. Was he talking about that on the on the on the program yet? Yeah, we did. We did a short piece with him that I think will debut soon on the whole issue, breaking down Hasop and everything. Yeah, I mean, well, I hope what I just said, put a jige, what he

[11:36] said, me, because I kind of just said it off the top of my head. But remember, you only got 22 days to donate to that Kickstarter, and they send you salami if you do. Anyways. Okay. Got some questions in. Now, Steven, Steven Benzger wrote in earlier and he says that, hey, I asked you, called last week about transbutamination, hydrocoloid polymerization, resources to post, but I can't remember for the life of me what I said I was going to post.

[12:00] Can anyone remember what the heck I said I was going to post? Someone, like, Stephen, tweet into me and tell me exactly what I said I was going to post, and I'll make sure that I do it, because you got to remember, like, my

[12:09] mind totally, like, goes blank Fritz's and runs away with me. listen to the show. I don't think there's any college. You sure it wasn't from too much? It was many weeks ago if this because this email was lost. So it was many weeks ago. There were no calls last week. No, Justino. All right. Anyway, so Stephen was also curious about some foods that he can circulate and refrigerate for long periods of

[12:30] time. Being a medical student, uh, he says, I like to cook on week, hope to cook on weekends and reheat them before or at school. Thanks. Okay, well, there are a lot of products that you, in fact, like one of the main benefits of, uh, now, let's go sous vide in particular, of sous vide

[12:47] cooking is you can pre-circulate a lot of your stuff and then just re-therm it. You know, remember, you can't, it's another one of the bizarre things. You can't say reheat because reheat is a technical term. You can say it at home. It doesn't matter. But like in like in professionally, if you say reheat, you have to reheat it to a pathogen killing

[13:03] temperature. Whereas if you've pasteurized your product and kept it, you know, properly cold during the thing, then you only have to re-thermalize it, which means you can heat up to any temperature you want. Okay, so most things are possible to do this way. The only thing that you can't really do, are things that you can't pasteurize. If you're going to, if you're going to heat something in a bag, right? And in this, when you're doing this, you're going to keep something for a long time. It's advisable to actually vacuum bag it because when you do things like zippies, there's some oxygen on the

[13:35] inside and if you're doing foods that have or that are prone to oxidation, like meats, especially meats tend to oxidize on reheating, it's called warmed over

[13:43] flavor. If you have a problem, you know, products like that, it behooves you to get rid of the oxygen in there so that you don't have those sorts of issues on retherm, that you don't have kind of

[13:51] oxidize off labors. Not dangers, just off flavors. So, you probably want to invest in a vacuum bag in a situation like that. And you want to make sure if you're going to keep stuff for a long time that you pasteurize the products that you put in, right? Because if you don't pasteurize them, if you're just heating them to a point where,

[14:08] uh, you know, maybe you like the way they taste, but you've left bacteria, you could be put in a situation where you actually have incubated a certain portion of the

[14:15] bacteria and cause it to be less safe. possible. I mean, not likely but possible. So you want to choose things that you can pasteurize. What does that mean? Don't do fish. Most fish can't be adequately pasteurized in a vacuum bag because you're going to have to cook it for too high or for too long to get

[14:31] good pasteurization such that you can safely cool it and then rethermit again later. Almost anything, if you pasteurize it properly, can be kept in your fridge for a week and then eaten later with no ill effects. Now, commercially, there is data that some people have gotten things to grow

[14:49] in vacuum bags, uh, you know, at temperatures, um, between 38 Fahrenheit and 40 Fahrenheit in that range. And so we actually have to keep, uh, you know, if you're going to store stuff for a week commercially, at least in New York, I don't

[15:05] know federally yet, because it's been a while since I've read this stuff, you actually have to keep your products below 40

[15:10] degrees. I mean, it's been a while, but I think the number is somewhere like 38 or maybe even 34. I gotta look it up. If you want to keep it for a full week. Otherwise, you have a shorter window to keep it. However, uh, in the reality, if you do uh, adequate pasteurization and you cool the stuff down uh, rapidly enough, you know, you're not going to get, um, you're not going to get in, in,

[15:32] in most real world situations, any sort of bacterial growth on the inside of that bag within that one week, you know, within the, within the Monday to Friday

[15:39] window, if you're cooking on a Saturday or Sunday and you're going to eat it before a Monday or a

[15:44] Friday. Just make sure that you adequately pasteurize everything. That's all. I says. Yeah. She said that just so that I'll be quiet and move on to Sunday. I know, Sty. you so well. She's like, you just be quiet about the safety stuff. I was like, Staz doesn't care. Stas. Oh, you care about safety somewhat. I do. I do. Not my safety. No, no, no. All right. And with that, why don't we take our 1st commercial break coming back with cooking issues?

[16:22] Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about

[16:40] animal welfare. While underground meats uses European traditions, they also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of

[16:47] salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tamworts, Berkshires, and mule foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. And welcome back. What's up? Oh, I thought they were gonna do another commercial. Nope, they're not. It's just us. Nice, right? Okay. Although we don't mind the commercials. We like commercials. kind of, right? Okay. Lucas writes in who we met. Pretty sure it's the same Lucas that we met at the, uh, at the, well, I 1st met him at the Kickstarter launch party and then at the, um, at the puffing gun party that we had, which was a good

[17:46] party. Yeah. Good part. Good party. Okay. I believe I believe this is the same Lucas. Oh, I'm not sure. Hi, Dave, Nastasia, Jack and Joe. I went to El Kalarkanroka, by the way, you know, was named, was it last year or a couple years ago, like the best restaurant in the world? Like, you know, it's the it's the Roka family. I've never, I've never. What? Who said it was? It one of those Peliguinas. know, I hate... First of all, like, we say this again. I'll say this again, although, you know, if you've met me, you've heard me say this many times. The idea of the best restaurants, the most ridiculous thing in the world. I mean, actually, that's not true. There are more ridiculous things. Like, you know, I don't know, like the Syrian government didn't do that chemical attack. That's more ridiculous. But, like, like, like, like, like best restaurant is just a silly concept because what does that mean?

[18:32] Do you want to go out to, uh, you know, a 3 Michelin star meal every night? No, no. Hell no, right? So, like, it's like the best restaurant on any particular night. I mean, I don't know. It's like, but that said, it's one of the restaurants in the world, one of the, you know, I would

[18:49] say top 3 restaurants in the world that I want to go to that I haven't been to. Hey guys, Piper's on the line. Oh, Piper? All right. Well, let me make them hold. Boom. Boom. Oh, yeah. All right, now we'll take Piper now. We'll come back to Elkalar, Ken Rogan, man. I just wanted to be. Hey, Piper. Hey, Dave. How you doing? Pretty good. So we had a question a couple weeks ago, and I promised that I would get you on the line to talk about

[19:18] it, and it has to do with puddings. And I know that you're a pudding head. And so, uh, you, you know, by the way, Piper works with us at uh, Booker and Dax Equipment Corporation and uh, worked for a while, um, doing research, food research, technical stuff for CP Coco, the manufacturers of such fine products as

[19:38] Gelan. and uh, a lot of the high grade pectins that you buy. And they also make, what else do they make? Like clear locust bean, what do they make? clear locust bean gum? Oh, video, carrot unions, and gum. Yeah. And, uh, they have locust bean gum. Yeah Well, they need the clear locust bean gum so they can make their fake gelatin stuff with carragina because everyone, if you want to do a

[20:00] vegetarian fake gelatin. Like one of the classic ones is a mixture of kappa car, uh, carriage. Well, mostly kappa carragene and locust bean gum to kind of soften to soften the texture of a little bit so it's not so brittle. But if you want to replace gelatin, it has to be fairly clear, so regular locust bean gum, which is cloudy, doesn't make a good gelatin replacer. So CP cocoa has to make this expensive clear locust bean gum. Would you say it's accurate? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So, um, anyhoo, so, uh, I forget who it was, but uh, gentleman called in a couple

[20:30] weeks ago and said he was having problems with the texture of his puddings and he was doing kind of classic

[20:35] cornstarch based puddings. And I knew that you would be making the Piper version of the nastasia vegan face for not using some sort of better putting technology. So what, and I said, I would find out what Piper's favorite putting technology is. So go. Well, I mean, it really depends on what he has at hand to, like, just had cornstarch, you know. What I like to do is, uh, an iota, heavy,

[21:02] uh, a karaoke and blend. Sorry, Iota kappa and locust being planned. So like, Depending on firmness, like .3 iota .one kappa and then .5 locusting

[21:18] gum, just for some reason. Hold on a sec. So you say point what on the iota? I like to do about .3? Right. Now, now, have you had any experience with the readily available, uh, carragin and blends? Because some people don't really understand in general, is that hydrocolloids, like carraginans are carraginans are gotten from seaweeds, and all of the carraginas are from the similar varieties of seaweeds, but there's no such thing as pure kappa or pure iota, or pure lambda carragin. And carraginans, because of the result of kind of, you know, refining and purifying a natural seaweed product, are all kind of shotgun mixtures, and each manufacturer standardized as a particular carragin and blend for a particular application.

[22:01] So one iota is not the same as another iota, one kappa is not the same as another kappa, right? They may have a different blend of kerogenians. They might have hydrocolides come in differing polymerization lengths, how long

[22:14] they, how long the actual polysaccharides are that are in them, and so they have different ranges. But have you found that like the various iodas that are available for people to purchase are roughly similar in their action here or do you have a particular brand that you like to use that is available to humans?

[22:29] The texture is, is, is pretty, pretty close to the,

[22:37] to the most pure, um, blends that I can

[22:41] using from CT Calco. Okay. So you use their iota and their kappa. And you, well, you say it works fine. They're iota in their kappa. All right. And yeah, and taro works good too. Tara spices, iota, and kappa work fine. Okay. So give those give those percentages one more time? Uh, well, this is for like uh, creme brulee. Right. It's, uh, .3% yota,

[23:05] .one% tappa, and then .05 focusing gum. Okay. Now, uh, folks, just so you know, locust bean gum has to be heated above what, about, well, all of those things have to be heated above like 75 C or something like that, right?

[23:20] Yeah, I don't yeah, I don't mind taking it to liking D. Yeah. But then, so if you're going to add something that would otherwise not work well at those temperatures, proteins, eggs, stuff like that, you would prehydrate that

[23:31] stuff and then temper it back in, right? Because logust bean gum is never going to set and the carraginans aren't going to set until it gets down into the probably like the 130s Fahrenheit,

[23:41] 120s Fahrenheit, right? Yeah, and then, I mean, if you've got cornstarch, you can also, I mean, you can put that

[23:47] in and that could, that would sort of stop in the, the gel up a little bit, it would interrupt the structure. Well, that's also why, you know, Wiley's cornstarch is his egg yolks to stop them from setting in his

[24:00] hollandaise sauce. I believe that's what he does. Well, he probably uses something more sophisticated, but that'll also stop, that'll also buffer the proteins a bit if you add them to the proteins first, right? Yeah, I mean, it'll, yeah, it'll do a couple of things. I mean, it'll, it'll also stop up some of your, it's not amazingly well. But what I like to do is do about 10% or maybe like 12% sugar, drive land on my hydrocollars at that. Um, dispersed in 5050 cream and milk. And then, uh, beat that to, you know, roughly 85 and then put it in the blender and add, uh, what, like, 2 egg yolks per, 250 milliliters of, of liquid, and then I add that at about, like, as it's cooling down, it helps, uh, it just helps

[24:57] spew things up, and then I just pour it into a, setting pan. All right. So now to translate some of the things that Piper just said, he dry blends the hydrocolloids with sugar. Why? Because the main problem with using hydrocollage. There's 2 things you need to do with hydrocollid. hydrocolytes swell and clumps. So if you want them to work you have to prevent that. So dry blending with sugar helps to physically separate the particles of the hydrocolloid so that they can be dispersed,

[25:19] right? After he disperses them, he hydrates them by heating, right? And then hydrates them in the closest thing to pure water he has in this case, which is milk and

[25:30] where else he's going to do. And then afterwards, as it's cooling in the blender under high shear, adds things like egg yolks and then allows the product to set. Now, if you break down what he's using for the actual hydrocolloid base here, he's using iota carraginen. Iota

[25:46] carragin, and by the way, Carraginen, one of the main things about carraginen, that's awesome, is it has a synergistic effect with milk, meaning it takes a very, very small amount of carraginen to set milk.

[25:59] And the advantage of that is that the smaller amount of hydrocollard you use to create a gel, the less masking you have a flavor. Well, it's cheaper also, but you know, for most people at home, that's not really a concern because the amounts you're using are so small. But also, there's a lot less flavor masking if you're using much smaller amounts of hydrocoloids. So Iota, Kerragen, is a kind of rubbery, uh, if you use a lot of it, kind of rubbery, uh, and kind of bouncy textured stuff. But, you know, kind of, you know, blowing, blowing, blowing, blowing kind of texture, it has an interesting properties. Unlike most other hydrocoloids, it will reform a gel after it has been sheared, which is interesting, right? But it's the soft one. Kappa is brittle, more like Agar. It snaps when you break it in half. So he's doing a mix between Iota and kappa to get the kind of texture he wants. And then he's adding locust bean gum. The locust bean gum is going to do 2 things. It's going to soften the kappa a bit, right? And it's also going to stabilize any of the water that's not locked into the

[27:06] Carraginan gel matrix and prevent that water from weeping out. That's when you're saying cineresis. So when you have locust bean gum that you're adding, locust bean gum is preventing the weeping or the

[27:17] cinoresis that you often get in gel systems or even in regular pudding systems, if you consider them a gel system. And in fact, that is why you have in most ice creams, 2 stabilizers. It's not that they want to jack everything up, but they have one that's doing a mild gelling, right, to prevent crystallization,

[27:35] something like kerraginen. And then you have something to prevent what's called way off or cinoresis, even at low temperature of liquids out of the matrix of the ice cream.

[27:45] And that is something like a locust bean gum or a guar. Yes or no? Yeah, all right. And also, it says that people use, uh, non-baker's percentages, because it would, it would throw off the recipe. You say it again? They shouldn't do the baker's percentages, it's like absolute percentages. You're talking about, like, when you say, well, so, Piper, when Piper, because he worked for CP Coco writes a recipe and he says a percent, he means

[28:15] that, uh, there is, um, there is one gram of hydrocoloid in 99 grams of

[28:22] water and that's one%. Yeah, but you're talking less than a percent on everything. It's going to be minimal for this. Well, I mean, it's going to be minimal plus you've got 10 to 12%. sugar, you know, it makes a, it makes a difference. With the sugar, it does, not with the hydrocolid, though. But the sugar is, as a percentage of the whole, your whole, your liquid portion is smaller. I don't know. I'm sorry. But okay, so what you're saying is, what you're saying is they should figure out what their total weight of their batch is and then do your hydrocoloids based on that.

[28:54] Yeah. Because you haven't calculated a liquid a liquid basis only. Yeah. Now, we should calculate a liquid basis on it because no one does that, you know? No one. I mean, whenever I write a hydrocolid recipe, I always try to write the numbers based on percent of water and then try to ignore the sugar stuff, but it's a

[29:17] really, it's a complicated thing. It's a problem. The fact of the matter is, if you find a recipe that you like, that works, as long as you are consistent in applying that recipe, you're going to be okay.

[29:27] Piper's method, which is the actual method you use in the, in the actual, in, in business, in the industry commercially, is better because if you think about the hydrocolloid to liquid base as being, or the

[29:38] hydrocolly, it's a total base and how the sugar interacts with it. going to make it easier for you to make a 2nd and 3rd recipe that don't contain

[29:44] sugar, right? That's the, that's what you're saying, but it makes it more difficult for someone at home to, uh, to figure

[29:52] out, uh, uh, the recipe in general. Would you say that's accurate, Piper or no? That's true. It also makes it easier for scaling. What, you're testing? Your technique? Yeah, my technique. I mean, that's, that must be a reason why everyone does it in the real world, but chefs just don't like it. They don't do it, you know? anyway. All right, pipes. Thanks for calling in. see you in a little bit. Yep. All right. So back to Lucas's problem. I went to El Kalar, Canroka a couple of months ago and really enjoyed it. The problem is that this place is in Spain and not exactly a budget meal. That's true. I hear it's quite expensive. Anyway. One of the most impressive things I had there was an oyster with a venison mayo.

[30:34] It was an intense, an oyster with venison mail. It was an intense experience. I'm trying to reproduce it, but I have no idea how to infuse so much flavor into the mail. I can make a quite a strong stock with a pressure cooking using multiple extraction. Typically, once you make mayo, you do not add much of any additional liquid. What happens is either I end up with not a very flavorful product or I break the mayo. Do you think that they somehow infuse the oil directly or do they make some ultra flavorful stock? I'm trying with duck rather than venison as I don't have venison, but I guess this is not an issue regards Lucas. Okay. Okay, there's, there's, I have some guesses as how you do it. There's there's a couple of ways you can do this. One, you could, uh, the simplest way, uh, the kind of the most bonehead simple way is

[31:18] to um, make a fluid gel, like a geland-based fluid gel out of the stock. I know stock already has gelatin in it, but you make a fluid gel, right? And then you can mix the fluid gel into the mayonnaise without breaking the

[31:32] mayonnaise because you're not actually adding a liquid to it. You're adding a 2nd solid that has the same consistency as the mayonnaise itself. So it shouldn't dork with the emulsion too much, right? So you're going to have a mayonnaise, and then you're going to fold into the mayonnaise, something with the exact same texture as the mayonnaise, but just

[31:49] a fluid gel. Okay? Now, that's one. Now, the more high tech way to do it. Okay. And if you were going to do the fluid gel, and you're going to do a mayonnaise, I'd say with Jelen, let's see, you could do an agar fluid gel. Agar fluid gel will be easier to achieve in terms of stuff you could go out and buy at a store. If you're going to do an Agar fluid gel, it would probably be on the order of 0.9% Agar. Oh, oh, but Agar and gelatin can cause problems sometimes. Mm, I have to look at it. Jeland should work. But the real baller way to do it would be to take your venison stock,

[32:25] right? And then get an enzyme. And Stas, we got to find a source of this enzyme. one of my favorite enzymes of all time to use. It's called correlace. So correlates is an enzyme that breaks down gelatin. Now the problem with, like, using, let's say, a meat tenderizer, like, uh,

[32:40] papayin or one of these other things that you can buy, uh, meat tenderizer, enzymes, breakdown proteins, but they can often break down the proteins

[32:50] into uh, bitter polypeptides, okay? And also, I've tested it. They're not as effective as you would like in totally breaking all the gelatin down, you know, as you

[33:01] want for the application I'm about to tell you. This enzyme correlates, which breaks down gelatin, specifically or specifically chosen, because when it breaks down gelatin, it does it in a way that does not create any off flavors at all.

[33:15] It creates only completely soluble, non-viscous and tasteless polypeptides, right? So, and this stuff is a miracle. You could take colds, well, cold. If it's cold, it takes a little longer for it to work, but you could take jellied stock, drip a couple of drops and of correlates into

[33:32] it, and it completely melts the stock down nothing. So it has no more body in it, right? Once you destroy the gelatin, you can take that stock, you could take 2 liters of stock and reduce it down to 100 milliliters.

[33:49] And then, and it still will not set. It becomes, you have to worry about not scorching because it has an incredibly high solid level just from the, uh, you know, from the, from the, the solids in it. But not gelatin. And so it allows you to get ridiculous reductions on that

[34:04] stuff, and then you can incorporate that as a liquid base into mayonnaise without having interfering effects from setting gelatin or any of these other problems or having to add too

[34:15] much, it's going to break it. And that's the way, you know, when I, when I had, when I, back when I had correlates, when I had some of it, that's the way we would do like super strong beef flavored

[34:24] drinks. We would make, we would break the, uh, or like very, very concentrated, very concentrated cold

[34:31] consommes that were liquid by breaking the gelatin and then hyper reducing it. And then that, you know, you could then probably get a lot of flavor into a mayonnaise without having to resort to something like a fluid gel. But if you want to go out and do it tonight, I would go out and make a gel and fluid gel with your venison stock, you know, 1st reduce it, make a gel and fluid gel, blend it, and then, um, and then fold it

[34:55] in, that should, that should work. What you think, so? Good job. Again, she's like, I don't care. If he asks me, just tell him to stop talking. Hey Dave. Yep. We've had a lot of people kind of tweeting and writing us about 3D printers and asking us to cover that. What do you know about 3D printers and food? Us meaning us or us meaning the greater us? The greater us, the station. Uh, well, that's an interesting question. Um, so, the 3D printing of food is something, you know, we were, uh, you know, a number of years ago, we were, you know, dealing with uh, Cornell with the Fab at home, which is

[35:29] uh, basically extrud an extruder, right? They were on the Rachel Ray program, and we had to run over some syringes because there's some interest that didn't come through. We still had some syringes left over, so we brought them over. But and Piper and Nastasia wanted to get into the studio audience. Did anyone that day win a cruise? We never saw the show. She didn't even look to see whether or not you didn't win a cruise. So you're upset about a cruise that you may or may not have won. What? don't want to know I don't want to know. No. You don't want to, wait, you don't want to know. Because I would have fought harder. You take the... okay, here's a question. before we get into the printing. So like the question, if you could take a genetic test to know whether or not you're more likely to get a specific disease or not, right? When you take it, answer yes, because then you can prevent or do something. So you want to know like the your possible future genetically, but you don't want to know whether or not the cruise was an actual

[36:18] issue. I would have fought harder. Like I paid for this genetic testing. I paid, you know, like I'm doing everything I can. I didn't do everything I could for the Rachel ratio, possible cruise. So I don't want to know if I go to one. Because you don't want to know that like possible personal weakness caused you to

[36:32] not get a cruise. Right. Fair. Fair. Uh, so, uh, back to 3D printing. So we were getting this 3D printer to work with. And, you know, the goal, people have this thing in their

[36:45] heads. And there was a New York Times article on it very recently on printing 3D food. And the goal out there is that somehow, you know, you're going to print your table, and then you're going to print your your plate, and then you're going to print your food, and then you're just going to sit down and someone's going to email you this awesome

[37:01] recipe, and it's going to print out, like, along with everything. And I've never been a fan of this idea, ever. I've always thought it was kind of, you know, not, um, not what I think cooking is about and not what I think food is about. I think the idea of 3D printing architectural units is very interesting because it allows you to do things you couldn't otherwise do.

[37:25] The idea of 3D, and we use 3D printers when we're designing equipment at Booker and Dax equipment Corporation. We use 3D printers and we use 3D printing sources to do rapid prototypes. But food isn't about prototyping or about, you know, short runs of

[37:41] something like a facade for an architectural building that you can then create a concrete with a 3D printer in a way you couldn't otherwise do. Food is about the day in, day out, creation is something that, um, that you want to eat. And in general, like the 3D food technology that's out there right now is all about extruding paste and then setting that paste into something else.

[38:01] And there's only so, you know, so far you can go with the extrusion of different types of paste.

[38:07] I mean, it's hard to get all the different textures you want, hard to get all the different flavors you want. I mean, it's not, I mean, if someday they could, you know, scan a steak and then reproduce it

[38:18] exactly, then, I don't know, maybe. But it's just not what I think about when I think of food. I like to think about my food being produced. I like to think about it growing or being raised. I like to think about how it's harvested, how it's treated, and none of these

[38:31] things, as yet, are reducible to pushing a button and printing it out, and like not even close. I'm not saying that that won't happen someday, but it's not even in the realm. It's not even in the, it's not even in the sphere of what's going on right now, literally what's going on right

[38:47] now is paste is being extruded out of tubes into shapes. So it's it's it's like, hey, look, the applications, the brain dead, what you need applications, do you want your scallop paste to look like Mickey Mouse or a space

[39:02] shuttle or do you want like, you know, your boyfriend's head, you know, in hot dog

[39:07] meat? If you want your boyfriend's head in hot dog meat either to chop it to pieces with a samurai sword or to, you know, lovingly munch on it, then 3D

[39:15] printing fantastic? You know what I mean? Because it is great at reconstructing your boyfriend's head out of hot dog meat. Fantastic at it. There's no better way because unless you're going to hire an artist to make a sculpture or unless you're going to mold your boyfriend's head and then jam hot dog meat into it to make a

[39:33] boyfriend hot dog head, you know? And by the way, you know, that's assuming that you can stand a skinless wiener because, you know, I prefer Frankfurter with a real skin on it. You know what I'm saying? St is making some weird faces now. But the, uh, because her mind works in in gross ways. Boyfriend, hot dog headface. Yeah, new one, right? Yeah, exactly. Oh, wienerface. Oh, jeez. Uh, so the, uh, by the way, like that... I wish you could put this out there for everyone to know because I'm so sick of you getting these questions about 3D printing, like we're going to eat some phenomenal food out of a 3D print. Which we're not. It's paste. It's paste. It's paste. Wow, I love Nastasia finally coming out. That's like the 1st time in 3 years, I think. We've been doing this, you know, for 4 years, I think now. Yeah, yeah. And nobody has said that it's paced. Yeah. Yeah. Paste. And so, like, here's the thing. Here's the thing, right? So we did come up with one thing we liked, which was, you know, what is a novel thing you can do with a 3D

[40:35] printer, uh, with paste that is hard to otherwise do. And it was this idea that, uh, you know, uh, um, Lifton came up

[40:44] with, with a stochastic printing where it's basically, you, you, you hold the toothpaste tubes, not toothpaste tube, but you hold the syringe up high, and you let it form a squiggle, almost like velcro, and you get these kind of masa squiggles that, you know, are, you know, that have, they're good because you could fry

[40:59] them, and the texture is different from what would ordinarily get with masa,

[41:03] right? And so I always said that from very get go. I was like, I don't really want to use it unless there's some sort of new texture we can produce, our new flavor we can produce. But, uh, another interesting fact. Someone tweeted in maybe a couple weeks ago about this. You ever heard of this? You heard of this Beyond Eggs thing? No? So there's this product out there and it was funded in part by gates. It's some kind of Silicon Valley thing where it's a completely non-egg egg. It's all plant-based, and it fooled Bill Gates into, like, oh, it's, well, it's just as good as a real egg because it fooled Bill Gates. Now, I need to try this myself. Please, someone from California, if you can find a Whole Foods saying, we love at Booker and Dax to have a sample of Beyond Eggs, to see whether or not it's just that Bill Gates has horrible taste buds for eggs or whether or not they were just overcooked or whatever, but apparently Styles, you can make scrambled eggs out of

[41:56] these. It tastes like the real legit deal. Since when's Bill Gates like the standard by which we judge these things. crazy. Well, because he's got the money to back it up. I guess that's why. Oh, color, you're on the air. Yeah, hi, I have a sort of a two-part question about live poultry. live poultry markets. Um, I recently bought a chicken at a live poultry market. It was a label root chicken, so I think it was, by the standards, it's supposed to be somewhat older than the normal commercial breed.

[42:27] And I was just curious if there's just a different approach to dealing with live bulgy. I tell you what I did with it. It was just a standard chicken roasting tech, technique. But I, after buying it, I salted it, and then I read on, on the turkey

[42:42] post, on cooking issues of the rigor mortise. So I think I let it sit for about 24 hours in the fridge after it had been fairly heavily

[42:50] salted, and then I used the low temperature roasting at about 150

[42:56] for about, you know, 2.5 hours to bring it up to about 135 and then finished it in a hot oven after resting, crisp it up.

[43:05] I think the texture was actually a lot chewier than I expected. And I didn't know if this was, was related to the age of the chicken or cooking techniques with something that's been that recently

[43:16] killed or if you have any thoughts here on the approach. Well, old, old chick, old chickens. I mean, if it actually is old, like old chickens are, they taste better, but they are never going to be as tender as a young chicken, you know, never.

[43:33] And, you know, so that's like, you know, when you go to, you know, other countries that, you know, as their standard chicken and things like stews and

[43:41] whatnot have older, uh, older birds, they're just not tender. And you just have to like kind of get past the American ideal that chicken is supposed to be tender.

[43:52] Now that said, uh, when you, now we've, when you cooked it, did you grab the legs and move them around, had

[44:00] they, had they loosened up, had they limbered? You know, I cut off the legs right when I got it home. So, um, but just, I mean, the defeat. Sorry. They didn't feel, but the legs, they didn't feel any, any, any different than I, I'm used to, and most of the poultry I buy is in, in Chinatown markets

[44:18] that, presumably is, you know, somewhat more recently killed than stuff you have in the supermarket, but I'm not,

[44:24] I'm not, you know, it didn't feel any different to me in that respect. Right. I mean, I've purchased, uh, I've purchased poultry at the live market and then let it rest overnight and had it be tough as nails,

[44:38] right? On things like duck, but I think a lot was the, you know, also the breed of duck that I was getting. Um, and, you know, my, the main reason I go to live poultry now isn't for chickens, because I'll just get that, there are, you know, suppliers that I like and

[44:54] trust that have good chickens, but I'll go for the turkeys. Um, especially before I had the good contacts here at heritage

[45:01] foods, I would go for the turkeys. to get them and I would let them rest a couple of days, probably. Although, you know, supposedly overnight. But like, you know, I think it's probably a combination. I think maybe you could have gone a little bit longer. I also don't know, and this is an interesting question. I don't know the effects of salting during

[45:22] rigor as opposed to salting after rigor. I don't know, I have no idea. Like, literally, I literally, I have no concept. But this place has a buy 10 chickens get one free. So it sort of encourages you to do these sort of side by side experiments. The 2nd question is just related to the killing method. I was just, was also reading about the Ikigime. I was just wondering, has anyone done this sort of, uh, um, flesh comparison with different chicken killing methods? I, I'm, I, I should, I should, should back up to say too. I am just looking at a Wikipedia entry for Mike, the headless chicken, and

[45:59] it was this chicken that in the 40s uh, was decapitated, but somehow survived for years. So it was reminding me of reading about Ikajime and wondering if, you know, there's, there's, there's a comparative, uh, study of, of, of killing methods on, on poultry. There's not to my knowledge, I'm familiar with Mike the Headless Chicken, which interesting story. The guy chopped the head. Well, thought he chopped the head off of the chicken, let it run

[46:26] around, like a chicken with its head cut off, and then came back and the sucker was still moving like a long time later, and then it turns out that he had left a certain portion of the brain stem in, and he would feed Mike by shoving, uh,

[46:40] shoving uh, grain into its, you know, into its like open throat hole. And the sucker lived for a while, Mike the Hill is chicken. So that base, you know, what started as an incompetent slaughter made this farmer like a good chunk of change. You can go, but you know what's disappointing about Mike the Headless Chicken, is that there's no really, really good photos of Mike the Headless Chicken, right? You notice that? It's like there's some, there's nothing like no close-ups of where the head used to, whatever. Yeah, it's hard to tell from the photo where how exactly it was decapitated. Yeah, I think the guy hit it at an angle because like you could see it's like a little bit higher up in the back and like that's what allowed the portion of the brain stem that controls kind of the heart regulation and

[47:19] peristalsis in the system to keep going. But back to the actual question. I don't think that the studies have been done on that. It's been a long time since I've read up on poultry slaughter. Most of the data out there on most animals shows that, um, uh, pre-slaughter stress is bad for meat quality, but I've read more stuff on, you know, obviously

[47:42] in in pork. It's a huge issue with pig slaughter and cows. And I've obviously done a lot of work with fish on that, but the specific reasons why fish taste sport is has better texture as a result of the specialized killing techniques is because hard

[48:01] rigor in a fish leads to mushy fillets into bad texture, especially for, you know, sushi sashimi applications. So I don't know, uh, you know, whether I don't know what the effects are of, for instance, preserving the ATP reserves of chicken

[48:20] muscle. Now, you know, aside from that, you know, there's probably all sorts of, you know,

[48:26] awful things that get injected into a chicken system, if it's freaked out right before it

[48:31] gets slaughtered, right? So there's certain things going on. And, you know, for a number of years, I have had in my head, um, different tests to be able to do on this, but it gets it gets dicey. When you're doing slaughter tests on fish, people don't seem to mind. As soon as you move to, you know, hire creatures like bird, well, what perceived higher creatures like

[48:55] birds, or even, you know, God forbid, into the range of mammals that are eating for food. People, people, um, People look at any sort of, uh, experiments like that as being somehow like

[49:08] horrible, when in fact you're just trying to make it more humane. You're just trying to do better. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think I think the, the certified humane stuff that they, they sell

[49:18] in in supermarkets, they used, they, they knocked them out first. I didn't have time to look it up extensively, but you know, that would definitely be different from a live poultry market where I think they're, they're bleeding it out through the, through the neck, which, you know, not chopping

[49:32] its head off. Well, I mean, every every time I've been to the live poultry market. What they do is they take, especially big birds, they tie them by the feet and let them hang upside down alive,

[49:41] flapping, freaked out to figure out how much they weigh. Then they take the bird, you know, put it down, chop its head off and go. I mean, that's pretty much that's, you know, that's how, and I think that's pretty much, you know, the d-rigur method of doing it. Like, uh, and so, yeah, they're not doing any. I mean, at least the places I've been. you know, I didn't see any electro stunning equipment. put it that way. Um, you know, whereas I think it probably commercially electro stunning is

[50:08] the is the way to go on uh, on, on chicken slaughter. Did you see any electro stunning where you were? I don't think that they do that at the at the live poultry joints. You know, this place, I think it was, I got the head on too. So it was Chinese style, but I think they do all, they, much of their business is halal, so I don't know the details of halal slaughter, but it seemed to be that that, that a lot of their meat was default halal, unless, you know, you had some special method, just because so much of their customer base

[50:34] was where, were, were people seeking halal meat. So that would, and I think that's that, that, that is bleeding, bleeding it out to the neck. So, which sounds especially cruel. I think about it. Well, yeah, so if Halal, I mean, I've never done as much as I should research on Halal techniques, but my memory serves, kosher slaughter techniques would dictate that the animal is conscious, right? to prove that it's all intact and everything, and then humanely slaughtered with a quick slice to the throat, which would mean that there is no stunning

[51:04] involved, because that would compromise the animal prior to the slaughter. So, my guess would be that, yeah, there's no form of stunning involved there. Yeah, and then finally, I was just, with, with Chinese fish, let me see, fresh killed chicken, and I think some Korean restaurants are, you know, they're advertising this too. Do you think that that is, is, is pre-rigger flesh that they can actually, because, uh, apparently the place that I went to, which is in Bensonhurst, supplies one of the places in Midtown, but I was just thinking that, you know, the,

[51:37] it, it sets within, it's within several hours, right? So you, you, you, that texture, actually a chicken and rigor, or is it pre-rigger, or do you have any idea? No, I mean, that would be super interesting, right? Just get the get the chicken, rush home and cook it right away. Uh, you know, get, you know, the, the interesting one would be to go in the morning, get a chicken. right? Put it in your fridge, uh, go in the evening, get the chicken, rush home,

[52:05] you know, and then do one maybe the day before, 2 days before, and then like cook them all 3 at the same

[52:10] time, side by side in the same oven and test them out. That be fascinating. Yeah, yeah. I might try that because now I'm curious, especially with salting as well, because there's, there's, there's some way, I feel like the texture might change pretty radically by, you know, different, different times and different uh, salting just in that, you know,

[52:27] 2012 to, you know, 48 hours if you, if you, you did 12 hour intervals. Yeah, well, if you do it, please, you know, write right into us or, you know, uh, let us know what's going on because this is the kind of information that uh, we crave. Okay, yeah, I'll certainly do it. I'll let you know. Thanks very much. All right, thank you. Peter Cook wrote in at cooking issues. What are your favorite uses for fish sauce and are there any good substitutes for alcohol when deglazing and or flavoring? I like fish sauce in almost everything. Sty? you a fish sauce fan? Yeah, I love myself some fish sauce. So, I mean, let's say you have some, it's just delicious. I mean, soups, delicious with fish sauce. Um, I don't mean, I, you know, it's one of those things that I would add to many things. Like let's say someone doesn't eat meat, but they eat fish, right? Fish sauce. I put fish sauce and everything. I also like anchovies a lot. I will throw anchovies into almost almost anything. I really like salty fish flavored things. So it's like hard for me to say. You know, it's hard for me to say what my favorite is because I just like them so much. Now, what I would recommend you do with fish sauce is there's no such thing as

[53:38] one as one fish sauce. Like my favorite brand that you can get kind of around is Tipuros. I like that one a lot. I think that one's Thailand. But, um, go out and source yourself some like really interesting fish sauces, uh, like, um, Ishiri from, uh, Japan. Um, it's not really fish sauce, but go get some colatura anyway from Italy. That's good. You like that stuff? Like the anchovy juice. Yeah, it's good. So, I don't know. Now, any good sociutes for alcohol when deglazing and or flavoring. Now, nothing adds alcohol flavor quite like alcohol does, but for deglazing, really, you don't have to use alcohol, in fact, a lot of

[54:16] times, the only real thing you need to have for a deglazing liquid is that it can't have so many solids in it that it scorches on the

[54:24] pan. You're using it to break the solids off the pan and then reduce. So anything that's flavorful that's not going to scorch during the time that you're deglazing, you can

[54:34] use it. And often you're deglazing with, you know, with water or, you know, if you're making, you know, gravy or something, something else. But the reason you add the alcohol, 1st when you deglaze, is so that you have more opportunity to cook the alcohol out before you add the bulk of your liquid.

[54:49] I mean, I think that's the reason why people add alcohol 1st and I think glazing, not because it needs to be alcoholic. In other words, I don't think they're using the properties of the alcohol to dissolve the stuff on the bottom of the

[54:58] pan, if that makes sense. Does that make sense, Dennis? Okay. Uh, this is a great name because I can't pronounce it. It's G with O, with an O, umlaut, R-A-N. So I'm going to call it Gurin. Eldon, Gurin. What do you think? Gurin. I going to go with Gurin. Cooking issues. I often use canola oil for frying, good or bad? Many people use a lot of olive oil. Isn't that a bad choice for hot applications? All right. Uh, current, here's the deal. Olive oil is not bad for hot applications. However, you aren't getting any awesome taste benefit if you heat the olive oil too much. We talked about this a while, I think, maybe like a year ago or 6 months ago, where we did a bunch. Someone called in and we talked to McGee about it. We did some side-by-side taste tests of eggs cooked in in olive oil. And Mark Ladner was here that day. Yeah. And we were tasting eggs. Remember? We tasting eggs. And it turns out that it's fine. Cooking with olive oil is fine, but, you know, all the awesome fruity notes and kind of the varietal characteristics and all the things you love about the taste of olive oil are wiped out by the cooking.

[55:58] It's not bad from a technical standpoint. Now, um... Anyway. So that's that. Now the other problem is, is that a lot of olive oils will degrade quickly if you're frying. And so they're not a good choice for frying long term, or if you're frying a lot of stuff, or if you're going to have a lot of particles sitting around in it, because depending on which kind you get and what's going on. The smoke point can lower faster than some other whales. All right? Now, as were the canola oil is good or bad, I used to hate canola oil, hated it, hated it, really hated

[56:28] it. Like in the 90s, like I hated it so much because the stuff that you would buy that was cheap just hadn't been properly deodorized. And so it tasted wretched, awful. But the canola oils that I've tried recently, and it took me many years to, after I had done some initial frying tests with canola oil in the 90s. It took me many, many years. I took the early 90s too. like 92, you know, 92, 93. It took me many years to go try canola oil. In fact, for, you know, a decade or so, I was like, hell with canola oil, crap on it. don't care. It could be the healthiest thing on earth. It could save my life. I'm not going to use it for frying. And then I tried it again. You know, sometime in the 2000s and I think they fixed that problem. The average deodorization of the canola oil is fine. Now, canola oil, canola is not a plant. Canola is a contraction, I think, of Canada and oil because it was originally developed up there from a variety of rape

[57:21] seed. Talk about a crap name for a product. Rape seed is from the mustard family. And so they developed a variety of rape seed that had, was particularly low in, uh, I don't even know how to pronounce it, but

[57:33] like, rustic or, but the, the, the stuff that, that, that they, the, unsaturated fatty acid that's

[57:40] in, uh, mustard oil, which, if you have it in large quantities, some people say it's bad for you, which is why you can't get the real deal mustard oil here in the

[57:47] US easily, unless it's labeled not for consumption, even though the studies are crap.

[57:52] So anyway, so people are worried about that, but the canola oil that's out there has very low, less than 2% of that fatty acid in

[57:57] it. And so there's nothing out there that shows that that is a health problem. There's some studies I couldn't read them because my internet was crapping out on me that the, uh, that, that certain transpoofas, that's an awesome transpoofa,

[58:10] polyunsaturated, fatty asses, transpoofas are formed during the deodorization process. That I can't attest to because unfortunately I couldn't get to the data with my internet this morning.

[58:20] But I don't have anything out there that says that um, that I believe that I trust that says that the stuff is uh, bad for you uh, in any sense. And I know a lot of people say it's good for you. I don't believe that either, but I can say that I no longer believe that it tastes like

[58:37] crap and it's probably good for frying because I believe the smoke point is fairly high. On the way out, because they're going to kick me out of here. I forgot last week to give a shout out to Mei May in Boston, Mei May food truck, and I guess I don't know whether the kitchen, the non-food truck thing is open yet, but they came to the talk that we

[58:54] gave. You know, the whole crew came to the talk that we gave with McGee. And then, you know, I want to spend some time with them afterwards talking to them. And, you know, I set off the freaking fire

[59:04] alarm. And so we got cleared out of the building and you guys gave me a set of

[59:09] pastries. You said, this is the best pastry in all of all of Boston, and it got lost in the shuffle. So I didn't eat the pastry. It's horrible, but I did get from those guys, 2 bottles of liquor from Boston, and I really appreciate bringing kind of Boston, you know, Boston local products for me to taste when I'm in Boston or

[59:28] in Cambridge in this case. Although you didn't bring any of your own stuff. So next time I go up there, I want to try your own stuff, but they did bring 2 things. Grand 10, which is in Boston, distilling, Grand 10 distilling, Angelica liqueur, which is like an Angelica liqueur made in Boston, which we enjoyed. We might work that into a cocktail. you like, did you try that one to us? Yeah, it's good. And and this is what I'm going to go out on. Bully Boy Rum, which is Boston Rum. And for those of you that don't know, Boston,

[59:55] Medford, actually, specifically, you know, if you're into the whole Medford thing, known back in the day, pre-prohibition for being a center of rum

[1:00:03] distillation since before the American Revolution. In fact, Paul Revere famously, as he's riding down the, uh, you know, trying to warn, you know, I guess that the British were coming, although that's a bunch of hokum, there's actually, you know, Revere,

[1:00:17] like got his horse taken from him, like, you know, like when he was in, I think Lexington, got his horse taken from

[1:00:22] them, and ended up sitting the rest of the night out, and it was another dude that uh, that didn't get caught, you know, that escaped with his horse. They kept on riding out. The real freaking hero of the day. Paul Revere, you know, got caught, and yet they write the poem about Paul Revere because I can't even remember the other guy's name, but apparently, you know, not so good for poetry. So Revere gets all the props, right? But anyway, so on the way out to get captured by the British and not really

[1:00:47] warn very many people because he got captured, you know, fairly early on in the thing. He, uh, so I'm going to get some crap about that. I know I am. He takes famously takes a swill of Medford rum, which was supposedly pretty good. And, um, and you read about this in Wayne Curtis's book on rum. Uh, and they reenact that to this day, people will ride fake ride past there and they'll take a swig of rum, but no longer from Medford. And I'm hoping that the Medford Ride people are now using the Bully Boy rum. We enjoy it. Now, one last thing about Medford and Boston and Rum, the Boston

[1:01:17] rum was produced from Molasses, because guess what they can't grow in Boston. You guessed it. Sugar cane. They can't grow it. So they would take the molasses and they would ship it up there. And so there were lots of stockpiles of molasses in Boston prior to prohibition. And just prior to prohibition, one of my favorite history, crazy facts happened. The great molasses flood in the north end of Boston in 1919 just prior to prohibition, even though it wasn't actually for rum that it was, it was for industrial alcohol. So in 1919, a giant tank. Like, imagine, you know, those giant tanks of fuel that you see in Elizabeth, New Jersey, as you're driving down the turnpike, those big kind of fuel tank stars, you know what I'm talking

[1:01:55] about? Imagine it filled with molasses. All of a sudden, these people on the street and there's like an elevated train. theres horses, there's all this, 1919. They hear ping, ping, ping, boop, and all of a sudden, a 15 foot high wall of molasses running 35 mile an hour, right?

[1:02:11] exerting a pressure, according to one thing I read, of 2 tons per square foot, right? And just smacks into you. It knocked down like railroad cars, like horses just got in molasses and like a bunch of people died. A bunch of horses died and a bunch of people died. Uh, and can you imagine anything worse? You're drowning in molasses. You get SmackDown tackled by molasses and then you drown in molasses in Boston. And the story was that for decades, even into the

[1:02:39] 70s, when I was a kid, which was when I 1st read about it in Smithsonian magazine, I can remember to this day, reading about it because one of my great aunts from Medford, you know,

[1:02:46] my stepfather had these like 3 maiden aunts who never got married and they were born. Anyway. So I was like, they remembered it. They remembered it. And into the 70s, the streets of Boston, when it got hot out, still smelled like molasses in the area where the flood

[1:03:01] was, cooking issues.

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