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[0:34] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Is, she's coming to live from the Burnus Pizza Inn, Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12. roughly 1245 or one, something like that. Hey, Stas, how you doing? Good, how are you? I'm doing all right. Joined, as usual, with Nostasia the Hammer Lopez and the guys in the engineering booth. How you guys doing over there? Just Jack today. Just Jack? Old school. Old school. You know, you know, no offense to anyone else, but, you know. Feels good to have the Jess Jack. Thanks, guys. Yeah, Jack Jack's the man. Jack Insley, a.k.a. the man. You got anything good going on the heritage radio networks that we need to know about? Your website launch. Yeah, when is that going to happen? When did it go up? We had a little soft launch happen last week and it's up now. We also have our own kind of like storefront in the iTunes store now. So you can see Heritage Radio Network has its own kind of channel. And right now on the front page, they're featuring our Alice Waters evolutionaries. Kind of Alice's life story, is on the front page of the iTunes podcast store. Oh nice. That's fun. Let me ask you a question. Do we sell anything other than us? Nope. All right. That's why you should donate Yes, yes. All right, well, that's good news. I gonna go check that out. Did you already tell these guys, like a little blurb on what they're going to get out of the new website, what it's going to do that they couldn't get before from the

[1:51] heritage radio. The new website features an entire kind of new department of in-house produced content. So we've got 6 sort of categories, pleasure health news, opinion, business science and technology, and we're both from the programs weekly, and then just from scratch in the office putting together

[2:09] in-house content. So kind of transitioning to more news, more reporting, stuff like that. It's really good stuff. All right, then. Well, uh, this case and questions. Call your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-4972128. And just so you guys know, I can't personally check my tweets during the show because I'm talking during the show. So if you have questions you want to tweet in, if you don't want to call in, tweet it to

[2:35] at Heritage Radio Network, is that right, Jack? It's at Heritage underscore radio. Shows what the hell I know. You know what? How is it that I know nothing? How long did it take me, Jack, to memorize our telephone number? Yeah, it's still a process. Took like a year and a half for me to memorize our telephone number. whatever. So Devin Stone tweeted in at Cooking Issues. Trader Joe's sells most of their protein in vacuum bags, some clear, some black. Are they low temperature safe? Devon, I wasn't able to find anything off the bat on the composition of the Trader Joe's

[3:03] bags, and I dreaded, but I will do during the next week, fighting my way up the corporate ladder to find a human being who knows what the hell's going on, but everyone knows what a pain in the butt it is to deal with corporations like that, right, Stas?

[3:16] But I will tell you something about Trader Joe's. you know, Styles, what are your feelings on Trader Joe's? They're okay. Well, what do you really think? don't like their Hawaiian shirts. You don't like their Hawaiian shirts? Yeah. Well, you know, I always kind of like, I was fine with Trader Joe's. I have no problem with Trader Joe's. until I found this out. You ready for this? Are you familiar with the Bread and Life? Bread and Life is like, they provide food for people that don't have it and they take donations. They're in Brooklyn, actually. Yeah, yeah, you know, Brad. Yeah, good friends at station. Well, Jack, you might be interested to know this, and I'm not telling anyone to change their buying behavior based on this, but a lot of the big food purveyors

[3:50] around like Whole Foods and whatnot, right? They will give their, uh, like the day before their stuff is going to expire. They'll take it off the shelves, and they'll give it to organizations like bread and life, who will instantly cook with it so that they can get it out before the expiry date, right?

[4:05] And then they're not throwing away or wasting all this food, right? That makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah, Trader Joe's doesn't, because they think it's too much of a hassle. They specifically destroy the food, throw it out in dumpsters instead of giving it to bread and life because they think it's going to be too much of a hassle. So that I know, yeah, so I know some of the higher ups at bread and life, uh, you know, have stopped buying at Trader Joe's. And, uh, you know, my wife encourages me to stop buying at Trader Joe's. I haven't done enough research yet, but I mean, I'm hoping this is just, that's just like some sort of like corporate, like, brain, whatever you want to call

[4:37] it on the air and that they maybe could change their policies. But if anyone who's listening knows anyone at Trader Joe's and wants to, I don't know, comment on that or have maybe figure out a way to change their policies. Because

[4:49] literally the bread and life people were told, it's just too much of a headache for us to give all this free food that we're going to throw away to all the people who need it.

[4:55] That sucks, right, Jack? See, now with their in-house kind of production, I'm thinking we're going to have to call Trader Joe's and get a comment, follow up on this.

[5:03] Yeah, because that's crap, right? We'll report back to you. is crap. That is crap. That is what we hear at the Harris Radio Network like to refer to as a load of crap. With a caller on the line. Oh, okay. Call her. on the air. Hey, this is John Doe. Hey, how you doing? I was going to call out one of your tweets there that you, let me let me find it here. There it is. Finally made fish sauce cured bacon. Freaking delicious. I saw the picture. So tell us about it. So, um, basically, uh, Piper gave me the, um, base

[5:34] brine, and, uh, I just replaced the, the salt with fish sauce, and it was actually around, um, 8%, so then, um, I just boosted it a bit to get to the 12.5 and then just added brown

[5:48] sugar, and water, uh, to the appropriate percentages to, to get the, the brine.

[5:54] Then, uh, left it in the fridge. Uh, probably a little bit longer than I should have, so it was slightly over salted, but I compensated by doing just like, uh, a couple stages of, uh,

[6:07] dilution, uh, and just water. Um, that's actually one of the questions I call, I, I've been calling you about, but, uh, so, so then, uh, you know, tried it for a few days to build a

[6:19] telico and then just smoked it, um, for a couple hours with, uh, mesquite and it came out really awesome. Um, but the funny story is, um, when I had 1st cured it, when I had

[6:30] discove, when I had discovered that it was way too salty, I pretty much

[6:35] stunk out the whole house. Oh, yeah. People were pretty upset with me, but that was, that was funny.

[6:41] It was still very good, but it was just really powerful and, and, um, somewhat inconsumable, but, I mean, you could put in stuff, but then, I just did the dilution, and that ended up working

[6:53] out, so, actually, my question is, um, is there some way to come up with, like, um, a concentration such that you take care of, you know, the botulism, all the, all the, you know, all the bad things that come along with it, without having to figure out the exact time,

[7:11] like, basically leave it In there, indefinitely, uh, without having to worry too much about, you know, being

[7:17] under oversaulted. Is there some sort of cross, um, basically a crossing between optimal flavor

[7:24] and um, and handling all the, the microbes that you don't want in there. Well, sure. I mean, you, I mean, the, the, things like botulism you're going to take care of with uh, nitrice. Did you add nitrites to it? Yes I did. Yeah, okay. So I mean, like, and the nitrite concentrations are small enough. You know, you don't have to use, uh, where you're using what we're using a prague powder or we're using like a salt with nitrites in it. I was using um, what's uh, what's referred to as pink salt? I think it was called colon nitrates in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in order, you don't need to add enough, like that stuff's not going to radically increase the saltiness of your

[8:00] of your product because you're not going to be adding that much relative to the quantity of what would normally be regular white salt to it,

[8:06] right? Okay. So, you know, it's the pink salt that's going to take care of the beasties that you're really worried about. Like, you know, the ones that are that will grow perhaps if you were going to cold smoke or hold it, right? So you're, you know, so that's going to take care of that stuff. And you said you added extra salt to the fish sauce, right? Yeah, it was an 8%, so I brought it up to 12.5 , which is, I believe, to be

[8:28] the, uh, the basic, uh, brine for a bacon. Yeah, well I mean, you can do various different brine concentrations. I'd have to look up exactly kind of what the minimums are, but you're not holding it for a long time. You know what I mean? So, I mean, if the nitrite levels are high enough to inhibit things like botulism and to get a good pink cure, which I saw the

[8:48] picture. sucker's pink, right? So, yeah. So, I mean, that's going to take care of a lot of a lot of those problems. Another thing, you're saying that it was unbearable, the salt or the aroma? Have you tried? Did you try pre-cooking the fish sauce a little bit to blast off some of the volatiles? Uh, well, what I had done was, I just, yeah, so what I had done it was I, I took it, you know, once it came out of the brine, I just took it out immediately to cook it just to taste how, how much fall penetration was in it, so I think I had some excess. It was still pretty wet. Right. So, that, that's why a lot of, you know, it, it was pretty stinky, so. No, I mean, did you, did you cook the, did you like boil the fish sauce a little bit before you use it as a brine? Oh no, I didn't. I just did it straight. Right. That might mellow it a little bit, um, in terms of how it smells after it comes out. I have never done any side by side, but it's always been my mental perception when

[9:42] I that heated fish sauce tastes very different or smells very different from unheated fish

[9:48] sauce, but that could just be because once it fills up the kitchen and it's combining with the ingredients that it just smells totally different once it's

[9:55] combined. don't know. But, you know, it's always been my feeling that like something's volatilizing off of the fish sauce that kind of rounds it out and makes

[10:03] it, um, less offensive to the people around who might not love fish sauce as much as we do.

[10:08] That's a fair point. I would consider that. Yeah, I mean, it might be hard to love fish sauce as much as I do. I mean, you know, and be, you know, from the east coast of America, because that stuff is just straight up delicious. What brand of fish sauce did you use? Um, I forget what brand it was, but I, I found a, I found a brand

[10:28] that um, didn't have any of the, uh, uh, the fake hydrogenated vegetable proteins. Yeah, I can, I can follow you. I can uh shoot you a picture of it. I forget exactly which brand it was. I think it was the one with the baby on the front. Oh, yeah, I forget the name of that one. I've done a I did once like years ago, like 4 years ago or something. I did a side by side of a lot of the ones that were available in kind of the local markets around

[10:52] lower Manhattan where I live. And, uh, I mean, as anyone who knows, listen to me, there's a lot of Japanese fish sauce out there that I love, and there's one that's not really available here that's made with, uh, Ishiri, and there's a bunch of different Ishiris, uh,

[11:06] and one of them is called, uh, one of them's from Squid, solely from Squid Guts. And that sucker is amazing because it's extremely meaty. And that's the one that I think tastes as close to Sally Granger, who's

[11:18] the, she's the fish, the Garum, Roman fish sauce expert, and she's done a lot of recreations of recipes in large

[11:24] tanks as part of her PhD thesis. on fish sauce, and she's done a lot of work with Apicius, and she and her husband did a translation slash adaptation of Apicius for, you know, I don't know, maybe seven, 8 years ago, that is, I think, the best one that's available in terms of historical accuracy of

[11:40] cooking, because it starts from the, it starts from the premise that they actually met what they said when they were writing as opposed to

[11:47] somebody earlier, like the Dover publication, who's, I forget who's the translator on that, just, you know, kind of plays fast and loose with it. assuming that we moderns know better about cooking than they did back then when it's always better to assume that someone who's writing about something is writing about

[12:00] it. Well, you know, uh, but, uh, anyhow, so I tasted her fish sauce, uh, number of years ago that was, uh, the

[12:07] garam sosyaram, which was made from uh, mackerel guts in her case and aged for, I think, 2 or 3 years. And that was very close to this one Japanese Ishiri, and the difference between it and normal fish sauce is it had much more of a kind of canned meat, hammy,

[12:22] bacon-y flavor than your standard fish sauces. But of the standard fish sauces. I mean, the ones that a lot of people like, like, for instance, like the 3 crabs or whatever it is, is like super doped

[12:33] with, with, you know, isolates, protein isolates. Um, uh, the one that my favorite uh, is uh, Tiperos, which isn't the one with the baby on the front, but that of the commercial easy ones to get. I like that one. I believe Tiperos is out of Thailand, but I'm not sure. I never, you know, every, every, everyone from, uh, you know, from that area of the world argues about who's got the best fish sauce, you know,

[12:55] that, what are you going to do? So, yeah, so I wouldn't, I mean, like, we, I can look it up, but I wouldn't worry about, like, uh, it being unsafe with having just the 8% on a, on a, on a brine like

[13:06] that. And then, you know, then you'll get, you know, relatively more fish sauce flavor versus salt

[13:12] flavoring, which might be good. And try, I would just do a side by side where you just boil a small sample of fish sauce and then taste it versus the raw just side by side after they cool to see what happens.

[13:22] Okay. Just one more quick question on the, you know how I did that ice cream cone with the microwave cake? Yes, also on my tweet, in case you guys ever follow my tweets. Um, so the, um, one question I had was we were trying to just, uh, draw patterns on a plate or be able to build, you know, little structures to be able to put other dessert things next to it.

[13:45] Um, and I was wondering if some sort of hydrocolid or some sort of thicker that could add to it, that would still allow the, the, uh, the

[13:54] boxing effect of microwaving, um, but hold more structure. Is there a, is there a lot of dairy in the cake? Um, no, it's actually just, um, I think it ends up being half a stick of butter, 4 tablespoons of butter. Um, it's mostly uh, it's mostly egg and then um, uh, egg white powder. If you prehydrate methyl cellulose, uh, from the either A or SG series, a fairly viscous one, if you prehydrate that in water to a fairly high degree, so it's kind of pasty, and then fold that into the mix, that will, um, that will gelatinize after,

[14:34] so what you need to pre-foam that, right? So you pre-foam that, uh, and then if you have egg white or

[14:41] xanthan or something in there that's holding the structure. See, the issue with these with these things is that with cakes, there is you need to have structure beforehand, right? And that's what holds the bubbles as they grow. And then you need to have structure, you need to have structure afterwards, which is the starch that sets.

[14:59] So, you know, years and years ago, I was working with Johnny

[15:03] Ezzini, and one of the things we did for a demonstration we were working on was a no

[15:08] protein, um, you know, cake, uh, like Asian boot cake style, but without that kind of bite of egg protein. And we worked it out with methyl cellulose. And we would foam with an ISI cancer, EC canister into molds. We would foam a cake batter mix that had, as a portion of it, hydrated metal cellulose, the issue, and it

[15:27] worked because the metal cellulose, it was already foamed. The metal cellulose would gel as it heated, it gelled, it held the structure in the same way that a protein will hold the structure in a cake. And then after it was cooked, the starch took over. Problem is is that it has bad interactions with dairy. Uh, you know, like methal cellulose doesn't necessarily um, react well or work well in uh, high dairy applications. Okay. I'll give it a go and let you know how it works out. Cool. Thanks a lot. Thanks so much. All right. Talk you soon. We got a tweet pink salt for bacon? Yeah, you don't use pink salt for bacon? That was a question mark? That was question mark, yeah. Yeah. No? I mean to someone, like, like, I, okay, look, if you go to, if you go to what's it called? If you, you know, pink salt, by the way, for those, you don't know, what they do is, is they mix, there's 2 different kinds of pink salt, ones that have nitrites in them, which are the ones that we normally

[16:18] use, and ones that have nitrates. You only want to use nitrates for long cured things like country hams and

[16:24] whatnot because nitrates break down over time into nitrites. And so in short cured thing like bacon, you're only supposed to use nitrites. And nitrites, I mean, look, this is all the top of my head. So it could be that like a huge portion of my brain was erased somehow and that like my data is totally wrong, which

[16:42] say if someone please tweet and tell me. But, uh, you know, when people, like, for instance, let's say you go to Whole Foods and you buy what's called uncured bacon, they should put giant ass quotes, giant quotes, I mean, around that because what happens is, is they

[16:53] use, uh, food stuffs like celery that are very, very high in

[16:57] nitrites, and then they just, uh, purify, I guess, remove the flavor and, you know, greatly purify, uh, concentrate the amount of

[17:05] nitrites, you know, that are in the celery itself, right? Such that that is strong enough to cure the bacon. Bacon that is actually uncured looks like roast pork, right? And tastes like salted roast pork, which is not bad. A bacon. You know what I mean? And I'm pretty sure that they add the pink color to the salts just so that you don't accidentally use it as salt. And I'm virtually certain. I would say 99.99% certain that, uh, and I always forget they're called prague powders or insecure powders. I never remember whether it's number one or number two. I just can't remember because I choose not to. They uh, they color it uh, pink. Now, if you get nitrites in the form of tender quick. Morton's tender quick. That is NACL, regular salt, mixed with sodium nitrite in a dosage that's meant to be used straight, and that sucker is not pink. So if you're using tender quick or what's called, you know, that kind of a curing salt on a bacon, then, uh, which is, you know, it can be recommended because there's no possibility really of error with

[18:06] it. But anyway, so someone tweet on it and tell me that, you know, my brain was erased because there's always a good chance. All righty. Should we take a break? Keep going? All right, Stas says, keep going, so I'll keep going. Christian Spinello at Eat the Pig. tweeted in. Listen to a backshow where you talked about octopus and was curious if there is an anesthesis step. Step. And anesthesia step. Why is that so hard? you try it. Anesthesia step. Yeah, I don't know, Stas is good at that stuff because, yeah, anyway. Or Ikuji makes that for them. Piper, by the way. get Piper drunk. Not difficult. Says that says that tongue twisters are like he hates tongue twisters. He won't say it. are the poor man's pun. But to me, they're unrelated. Like the tongue twister is unrelated to a pun. Who the hell knows what he was talking about, right? He was in the car, so I wasn't drunk. Well, well, who knows? Love you, Piper. I'm sure he's listening and now I'm going to have to put up with that all day. He's never listens except for today's gonna listen just so that he can hear that and then give me give me crap. for being the bad person that I am, right? Give you pink salt. Give me, oh. Wow. Okay. So that is a very interesting question. Christian. And one that I can't believe that we haven't thought about before. And part of the issue is that I've never purchased a live

[19:33] octopus at a market. Have either of you guys ever had that live tiny octopus on a chopstick? really, I don't really want. not that I wouldn't eat it. someone handed it to me. It's not in my thing. You know what I mean? That, uh, the reason why, uh, it's super interesting is that, you know, as I said, you know, many times, cephalopods, um, you know,

[19:53] octopus, uh, and some squid in particular, but really octopus are kind of the geniuses of the invertebrate world.

[19:59] They're extremely smart, but they, they're very bizarre in that they, their brains don't function the same way ours do. They are not put together the same way. Now, they're, uh, neuron, you know, the neuron transmission works the same way because, you know, nerves had already developed by that time.

[20:14] And so they function in similar pathways, but their nervous system, and their way of cognition, however you want to put it, right? And I think that the, you know, I think we're all past this idea that, um, animals are somehow just machines that can be, uh, you know, that, you know, have no sort

[20:32] of uh, inner, inner, inner life or workings at all. I think we're, you know, we're kind of past that as a society. don't you think so? I mean, very few people think that anymore. I think, you know, there's a bunch of hardcore scientists who kind of believe that, but it's almost the equivalent of solipsism on an individual basis to believe that we are the only animals that have some sort of inner

[20:53] life. It doesn't really make any sense. But, you know, the question is, you know, does a clam really think about a lot? Is there an inner life to a clam? I don't think so. But the closely related octopus, I mean, it can do some pretty complicated and amazing

[21:06] things, and can learn some pretty complicated and amazing things. So I think it would be a little disingenuous to think that an octopus doesn't have some sort of inner life going on, whether or not

[21:15] they're they're aware of their own existence or not, whether, you know, that's unclear. But it is very interesting to think about what anesthesia and particular what Ikigime

[21:25] might do to them. Now, Ikujime is a, you know, a set of Japanese fish filling techniques. But in the larger sense, you know, we're not referring to any particular traditional or even newer Japanese killing

[21:37] technique. when we're talking about this subject. We're talking about the, um, purposeful, quick killing of an animal, in this case, fish, because he

[21:45] continued means, you know, fish killing. In a way that increases their quality. And typically when you think about fish and I don't want to get stuck into arguments of, you know, what

[21:56] is the fish actually feeling? The question is, is do things that seem like less stressful ways of killing the animal, right, from just from an anthropomorphic

[22:05] thing. Let's not even talk about being rigorous. Do things that seem like they would make sense to reduce the stress of slaughter, like anesthesia, like taking the brain out right away. muscle stress in a sense, like destroying the spinal cord so that there's no more impulses coming from the spinal cord to the muscles to use up the ATP to cause rigor, which is why you want to destroy the spinal cord and some strong swimming

[22:27] fish, like bass and tuna. So the question is, is things like that that make sense from a human perspective as reducing stress. Do they have an effect in the taste? Now, you don't even have to think about what's going on in the inner mind

[22:40] or the fish because you have a much more verifiable

[22:45] result. Things that look like they cause less stress cause the animal to taste better when you eat it. So there is there is an effect. So it's like humane, whatever that means, killing techniques somehow align in this case, and hopefully in as many cases as we can see, align with best practices from a food preparation standpoint.

[23:06] Now, in an octopus, I came across a site, I'm looking forward here. www Nietzsche Nietzsche rayfresh.co.jp. And they do octopus and they say some interesting stuff. They say they're octop they're octopi, but they say octopuses when they when they translated, are caught one at a time using pot traps. It said that only strong, healthy octopuses enter the pot

[23:31] traps, while the shallow waters are still abundantly full with prey. This enables us to capture strong, firm limbed octopuses of the highest quality. Unlike the trawling method, this harvest method does not disturb the harvesting waters, and it also prevents over harvesting making it much better for the environment and for resource conservation. That's really interesting, just on a loan on that standpoint, because the idea that you want to catch a

[23:53] good, strong octopus, and they, those are the ones that go into pot traps, it kind of makes sense because, you know, they like to hide,

[24:00] right? So, I mean, I don't really know what an octopus pot trap looks like, but they might go in there thinking they're hiding and they get trapped, right? Whereas it's a well-known fact that as soon as a male octopus, uh, donates its sperm or everyone call it to the female octopus, that it goes, like it's called senility, it goes insane, senescence, it goes crazy and just starts wandering around on the bottom of the ocean floor so that it can get picked apart by whatever

[24:23] uh, prey you want. So then you're getting kind of crappy. Yeah, or and on the flip side, as soon as the female lays its eggs, it stops eating and sits in the

[24:33] cave, like blowing water over the eggs to keep things from growing on it and guarding them against, you know, predators.

[24:40] And then as soon as the, uh, the baby's hatch, she wanders out to get picked apart,

[24:44] eaten, and died into nescence. So, yeah, so you want a nice, good tasting octopus that hasn't gone into sedescence already. You got to get one that still has its self-preservation instincts intact. Um, so, uh, Stas is looking something up she can talk about in a minute because I don't have time to look at the picture right now. Uh, but she's going to, what do you got a picture of this? It's a picture of a Japanese octopus pot trap with a calm happy octopus. And it does look a lot like a cave, an octopus might go, and it makes sense. And it literally says calm, happy octopus. And the name of the trap is taco isubo. Taco isubo. Anyway, so I thought that was really interesting. And then here's the other thing that they say is they say then that they practice Ikigime on it to kill it very quickly. Now, there's a, there's an article there uh, that's available in September. It's available September 2013, and the Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology, called

[25:37] the Identification and Management of Pain, Suffering, and Distress Encephalopods, including anesthesia,

[25:42] analgesia, Gesia, and humane killing. Uh, and it's by Paul uh, Andrews at all. And, yes, this fairly recent article. And it's extremely interesting. So they, for those of you that are interested. And it is an interesting subject, and we don't have time to go into it now, but they go over, uh, all of the markers that human beings would look in a in a supposedly non-anthropomorphic way, although it doesn't make sense to think of it, really, in an unanamorphic

[26:11] way, of how you would judge whether or not something is experiencing pain to the degree that uh, that animal should be protected in a research environment. And then it goes on to figure to try and figure out whether or not we can prevent those sorts of pain. And pain, remember, is different from no seception. is getting complicated for a radio show, but no seception is the idea that there is a noxious

[26:35] stimulus and animals go away from it. So you take a cockroach and you put fire next to the cockroach, cockroach moves away from the fire. Are they experiencing pain? I don't know. Or are they just responding to the heat in the way that a sensor, you know, a smoke detector sensor responds to

[26:52] smoke, right? So a response to what human would consider a noxious stimulus is no seception. Pain is a consciousness state that has to do with whether or not the animal understands that something is going on and feels some sort of

[27:05] distress relative to that. So they go through a bunch of arguments about what that would mean. And then they go into what is now the important part for us, which

[27:14] is, well, what regulates that? So the 2 main, uh, 2 of the anesthetics that they use, one of which is clove oil, which is the one that we use when we wear anesthetizing fish, and there's a lot of data on using clove oil, uh, and it's derivatives,

[27:28] using all my sousional, to, um, to anesthetize fish, right? And I've done it many times. I've anesthetized lobsters, which are entirely different set of, you know, animals, crustacean,

[27:37] with Usinol. And I believe that there is an observable difference, and therefore, I don't have to worry about whether or not we're actually what's going on in the mind of a lobster because I feel that they taste different if they're anesthetized beforehand. And if they're killed quickly. Um, So the question is, does it work in cephalopods? Answer, yes, it appears to work encephalopods. But here's the interesting part. Magnesium chloride, which is a widely available salt. You can get it at the Dwayne Reed. Remember we got the magnesium chloride of the drain weed. Magnesium chloride added to the water that invertebrates like mollusc and clams are living

[28:12] in, causes them to lose their muscle, it's a muscle relaxant, right? And so if you add the right amount of magnesium chloride to the solution, and

[28:22] here I have the numbers, it's approximately 0.5% weight magnesium chloride

[28:28] and volume, along with one% ethanol. It will cause their muscles to completely relax. Now, what you don't know here, right? What you can't know is whether or not that is actually shutting their brain down or whether it's just shutting down the ability of their muscles to

[28:40] work. But large amounts of magnesium chloride, stop down, stop respiration and cause the animal to die. So a humane killing technique, uh, Ikigime style might be to put a small amount of clove oil, along with a small amount of ethanol, magnesium chloride, slow their muscles down, and to put them into a state of anesthesia, right?

[29:00] And then to add more magnesium and chloride to stop their respiration and then, you know, do whatever, cut your brain out. The other, you know, and there's the other problem with octopi is that they don't have a central brain, they have a large kind of brain near the eye, so there's midline dissection where you take out the entire eye area and get rid of the brain section, but they have a bunch of

[29:18] other quote unquote brain sections, unlike us, right? But that's one of the humane, or complete decapitation of the octopus, immediate decapitation octopus, another good

[29:26] Ikigime way. Are there brains in other parts of the body or it's all ahead? No, I think it's like a separate, and like most of the neurons in an octopus are in there, not most, but I haven't done the research in a long time, but a huge amount of the, of the, the neurons in the octopus are

[29:39] in, in the tentacles because like the, for instance, it's very complicated. But the point is, is that nobody really understands what it means to knock out the consciousness of an

[29:49] octopus because nobody understands what octopus consciousness is. And one of the fascinating things about researching cephalopods is that their entire method of perception of the world is different than ours. So

[29:59] that like appropriate deception, like how you know where your body is in space, works entirely differently encephalopods than it does in mammals.

[30:07] And so it's kind of hard to evaluate what's going on. But it's an extremely interesting subject. And anyone out there who has access to live octopi, I'd be curious to run some tests on taste. You know what I'm saying? Because that's the only thing I know I can test is how that sucker tastes on my, how that smart, awesome thing tastes once it gets in my mouth. anyway. Take a break. Oh, take a break. Come back with cooking issues.

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[31:19] flying, standard bronze, bourbon red, White Holland, slate, black or Narragansett, Turkey today. Let's do it again and support the brightest hope for the turkey. We guarantee these are the best tasting turkeys ever, or your money back. Prices start at $75. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. And welcome back to cooking issues. We've had some of those heritage turkeys. They were straight up delicious. I did, I think I did a bionic turkey on heritage thing once. That was, I think, maybe the best one we ever did. We did a bionic heritage turkey. Yeah. sucker was awesome. You know, the bionic turkey is where we rip out the skeleton, replace it with a skeleton, an aluminum tube skeleton with holes cut in it so that we can pump heat oil through, cook it from the inside

[32:04] out so it cooks quickly, and then flash fried afterwards to get a crispy skin, which is delicious. Should we do that again? If we tell, if we tell, rather, Patrick, that we're going to do some sort of fancy thing, you think you'll hook us up, hook us up with a heritage turkey? Probably make that happen. Sweet. We had a question come in, too, about alternate proteins, like in the form of bugs, and if you think bugs will find their way on menus soon. Well, I mean, bugs have found their way on menus. You know, already. I mean, you know, everyone, you know, in, you know, Mexico, you got those fried grasshoppers, which I just don't think tastes good. That's the thing. I mean, they're crunchy, but a lot of things are crunchy. You know what I'm saying? You've had those, right, Stas? don't think so. And I don't like them. Then there's the ant eggs, you know, Eskimo lab, which I haven't had, but I think those are extremely, you know, high priced. There's witchery grubs. Uh, you know, some grubs are apparently delicious tasting. I mean, there's no there's no reason not to eat them. you know, other than the gross factor. Um, and that they're fairly small, right? So, I don't know. I don't think there's any, any reason why they shouldn't, I mean, like, obviously there's a grossness factor that a lot of people have to get over, but, you know, then, you know who is big into eating bugs is

[33:14] Dana Goodyear. Did she write about that in her new, eating, eating bugs? And then what's it called? The, um, what's it called? Natural History Museum had that big bug eating thing a couple of years back. You know who else? I bet you Paul Adams from Popular Science, has eaten himself a lot of bugs. But you bet you that guy's eating himself a lot of bugs. We had this in on the Twitter. Dan D, at Eat the Fat, at cooking issues. Trader Joe's in STL, which is St. Louis, we think, donate, right? St. Louis, uh, donates a lot of food to our local at campus kitchens. Maybe it's just a in-store decision. Well, it's good to know that it's not Trader Joe's nationwide, and it just means, hey, New York Trader Joe's, step on up and give some food to bread and life.

[34:01] What? There's a lot of meat container Joe's here. Yeah, but I'm sure they're probably all, like, run, like, logo. Hey, Jack, you want to say something nice about the bread and life? friends of our station, all the good work they do. Well, yeah, they work with Heritage Foods also. We give them a lot of hams, I believe, and then come Thanksgiving, we work with them as well. They've also, they were one of the sponsors of the Bushwick block party. So they're like always around here. Anthony Butler's a great guy. I don't know if you met him. Yeah, no, yeah, I have. I know some, you know, my wife's done some architecture work for them, and so has, you know, another couple of friends of mine. They just happen to be really kind of good people, you know? Yeah exactly. So, you know, Trader Joe's, just, you know, give them the stuff that you're about to throw away. Why throw it away? Why have it go to waste? There's plenty of people. There's plenty of people here in New York that could use the food. Am I right Jack? absolutely. Okay. Here's a question out to you guys. Tom Fisher, you asked us about the eggnog. Did work? Did it thicken? It's been like a week or two, right? Since we answered that question, the eggnog should be thick now. Let us know. Tweet on in. Oh, dang, yeah. Well, before Thanksgiving, we have to set our eggnog. Piper's going to do something crazy with it though, right? He can't help it. Let's do it. Correct. So you and I are going to do it. We won't tell them till afterwards. You can do his own, you can do it side by side. Oh geez. He does love the side by side. Another follow-up. Drew Drew Bushorn wrote in on Tempe. He had tweeted in and asked this about whether or not you could use microbial transglutaminase,

[35:24] which, by the way, transgutaminase is what we call meat glue, and it's the enzyme that bonds proteins together. It binds a, um, glutamine residue to, which is

[35:33] amino acid to a lycine residue, uh, and a COVID. such a gross word. Why would I say residue when I'm talking about food? Residue. Glycine? I mean, uh, lysine residue. Anyway, the sort of it. So it bonds these things together and it comes from microbes, it's called microbial

[35:49] transquitaminates and it usually has various helper proteins. The question is, could you glue tempe together with it? And apparently the answer, and you could see it because he responded to the Twitter. Yes, it does. It glues it together and he says, what did he say here? Thanks for putting together a good program, long live the Hammer, fan of the Hammer. There's got to be one fan of the Hammer. Oh, shit. I know you do. Oh, come on, please. Everyone loves the hammer. Can we, please? Uh, a few days back, I tweeted Dave about using his favorite enzyme, uh, transplantaminates to make steam tempest solid enough to char uh, to charburger style, since I know he's not a big veggie, but he might be amused by the results. I thought I'd report back. The upper half, uh, he shows the part that's not uh,

[36:30] TG, and it's just all broken apart and the bottom patty with a one% by mass transputaminates, which is a good number for something like that. It tasted pretty, it worked well and tasted pretty good with lettuce and mayo. Well, everything tastes good with lettuce mayo, right? lettuce and mayo tastes good. And add a good tomato and you got let, you got all, you're almost all the way to a bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich. In fact, even if you're a vegetarian, I hate to say this because bacon lettuce and bacon list tomato, and we're talking with Mark Ladner about this over the

[36:56] weekend because we did an event at the discovery center at the Thanksgiving

[36:59] farm, which we can talk about later. Center Discovery, yeah. Discovery Center, something else. That's like a science museum or something, San Franciscovery. You know me. Anyway, so the point is, is that like that's kind of one of the great sandwiches. Mark thinks that the reason it's such a great sandwich is you can have it at any time of day and but and I'm

[37:15] get like, I'm going to get a lot of flack about this, but it's not as good a sandwich, but almost a good as good a sandwich as just, with just

[37:22] toasted, crappy white bread, mayo, an excellent tomato and lettuce.

[37:27] I mean, right? Something bacon for the mayo, are you saying? No, you need mayo no matter what, Jack. Don't try to make a BLT without mayo. Do you eat BLTs without Mayo Jack? Is this a problem we're going to have? No, no, no. All right. All right. Um, I was about to, I was about to go up. You can feel he's fooling into... Dave owns, like, you know, like the gloves come off in the hockey. Boom on the ice. Anyway. Okay. So that was it. Just a good follow-up. Thanks. And we like to hear follow-ups like that, right? We enjoy that stuff. Okay, we had a question in last week, but we forget who it came in from, right? I think it was a caller, asking about gluten-free ramen. And they specifically they wanted to know whether or not you could add consway, which is the kind of alkaline salts that are used to firm up alkaline

[38:15] noodles, of which ramen is one of those. So you add, uh, to flour, you add, uh, conway. It raises the pH, makes it more alkaline, and raising the pH strengthens the gluten in it, and causes the noodles to have more bite, more snap, more, more like, this made them firmer, right? Which is one of the reasons why people do alkaline noodles. The other one is there's a specific alkaline taste that you like if you're accustomed to that. Um, and we're accustomed to that, uh, in certain things, it's slightly different alkaline taste, but for instance, in pretzels have an alkaline taste to them because they're boiled in alkaline water before they're, um, or dipped in alkaline bath before debate, which is why they have that awesome color and that specific pretzel taste.

[38:52] Um, back to this. So the other thing that the alkaline stuff does in wheat flour is it turns it yellow, which is why you have those kind of bright yellow alkaline noodles, right? Now, with ramen, uh, I think most of the time ramen is made in an alkaline noodle, semi-alkaline noodle process, not a high, high, uh, level of alkaline noodles from the data that I could get from, you know, the

[39:14] the internet's on the actual industrial production of ramen. So, but the classic ramen production is you make the noodle, probably with alkaline, uh, with uh, out of wheat flour, sometimes with the addition of potato starch or other very fast hydrating starches to allow the rehydration to take uh, place much faster in the

[39:33] cup. when you add the boiling, you know, water to it when you're making the ramen. You know, I haven't made ramen in so many years from the bags. When was the last time you had one of those things? Three years. Oh, no, you mean like that? Yeah, like, you know, like the one that you actually buy the package, you break it open with

[39:49] a little flavor pack. 20? Dang. I used to eat the hell out of those. Those are good and cheap. Anyway, so what happens is you make the noodles. They are steamed. this is kind of cool. They have a conveyor belt and the conveyor belt runs at 2 different speeds, right? So a faster running conveyor belt loads onto a slower running conveyor belt, and that's how they get the wave in it. Yeah, by the differential conveyor belt, it's fed onto, and then they get the wave in it. When it's on, after it goes on the slower conveyor belt that causes the wave, it goes through a steam tunnel. The steam tunnel cooks the starch out, right? It then goes, it's then cut. sometimes fold it. Well, then they put on another conveyor belt that stretches it out a little bit to separate the noodles after they've done that. This is all pretty cool, right? And then that's after the steam thing. And then it goes, it gets cut and sometimes fold it into the full block, if you're going to put it into a block form for like in packaging and plastic, then goes into a fryer.

[40:43] It fries to dehydrate it. It's a fast dehydration step. It also, as opposed to regular dehydration, opens the pores in the noodles because it's boiling the water out. And that's why ramen rehydrates so quickly because it's got all these open pore structures from the frying. And that's also why you can eat ramen without cooking it and it's got kind of a good crunchy texture because it's slightly, it's slightly, it's more porous than dried pasta. That's why it tastes better raw, rawish, uh, than, uh, pasta. It's then further dehydrated, a little more and packaged. That's how the ramen works. So then, uh, the question is, uh, so clearly adding consway to uh,

[41:23] gluten-free uh, um, ramen isn't going to add the functional benefits of texture that you would get

[41:28] in, um, in wheat flour. However, there is a new article out, I think it's brand new. I think it's like not even out until 2014. I think it's one of those ones that's in pre-press right now. Uh, in the uh, journal food chemistry called Quality improvement of rice noodle restructured with rice

[41:45] protein, isolate, and transmutaminates by Yang Kim at all. And it's specifically looking at increasing the toothiness of rice noodles using

[41:53] transglutaminates, and they talk specifically, I think, about ramen and how ramen might work.

[41:58] Okay. And so what's interesting, if you look this paper up, is they have photos of scanning electron

[42:06] microscopy photos of what, you know, just plain rice looks like as a

[42:11] noodle, and like everyone knows has ever just made a rice noodle. It's like a bunch of BBs. It doesn't hold together well. There is no structure. There's no protein network, uh, like there would be in something that has gluten, which is

[42:21] why when you're making uh, gluten-free things with rice, what you do is you cook off some of the rice 1st and

[42:27] then and then add that cooked rice back to your raw rice flour because otherwise it has no structure,

[42:33] right? So they have that. Then they have that just with transgutaminates added, and it doesn't

[42:38] do that much joining back together because rice is fairly low in proteins that can be bound together by

[42:45] transgotaminates. What they did, and then they said that, look, one way to get around this is to add soy proteins and all these other things, but these guys did a study where they added rice protein back to

[42:54] it and trans contamination. You can see it, and the one on the, the one that it has the added rice protein added back to it, as well as

[43:01] trans contaminates added to bind it together, looks a lot more like a traditional dough structure than that.

[43:07] So maybe that's a way to increase in a gluten-free application, the

[43:10] twosomeness of it. And you could probably also, if you can't get rice protein. You could probably do a little bit of cooked rice, soy protein, unless you're against

[43:19] it that's hydrated, along with the rice, with transgutaminates, and get more of a firm kind of snappy texture out of it. But go take a look at that article. Because, you know, it seems fairly interesting. The one, the issue, only issue I have is that, uh, you know, as, as I've said there were

[43:35] arguments and I haven't had the time to do the research to really suss it out about whether or not adding transgutaminates to things that

[43:41] contain, uh, trace amounts of gluten, whether it makes that, uh, whether it makes the gluten fraction more reactive or less

[43:48] reactive, uh, for people who suffer from celiac. And I've heard kind of arguments on both sides. However, I will say that this article is specifically addressing the issue of

[43:58] celiac. And so, you know, they're looking to make a gluten-free rice only product that has good eating

[44:06] qualities and they are interested in the ramen issues. So it's something to look at. And, you know, it's current right now. It's 2 translutalities questions. I don't understand it tomorrow. Yeah? All right, cool. Oh, yeah, right. Next, we have it from, uh, you think it's pronounced Philippe? I think so. Philippe. Philippe Lament. It's kind of awesome. have a last name lament. I think it's a good name altogether Philippe Lament. I bet you, like, I bet you, like, super happy though. If you have a if you have a name like Lament, you can't, you can't like, you can't be melancholy. You know what I mean? Because, you know, but at least if it was Piper, you'd be like, I'm not living up to my name. I won't, I won't. Anyway. Hello, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and Joe. It's Philippe Lament writing. Love your show. I have a question about soft serve, ice cream. Some of my good friends acquired a soft serve machine amazingly, and I told them I'd be glad to make a ton of ice cream base for them for a party.

[44:57] Now I know how to make ice cream that is churned regularly, but soft serve is different. More overrun, right? What do I do to make a baller, soft serve base? Okay, this is a great question. Here's the deal. So I once was the proud owner of a soft serve ice cream machine. Also, kind of strangely, I was walking down the street one day. This is, you know, I don't know, 15, 12, 15 years ago. I was walking down the street, in the garment district where I used to live, and just literally someone had thrown out on the side of the street, a giant,

[45:30] like, you know, 2 flavors and a twist, tailor, soft serve ice cream machine on wheels. And I was like, look, someone threw on an ice cream machine. And my wife's like, so what? I'm like, so what? It's coming back to our house. And it weighs like, because you know, whatever. So the sucker weighs £900 and it's on these crappy little casters. I know it weighs 900 pounds because I looked up the cut sheet later on the sucker. And so anyway, it was only, you know, those crappy little casters that machines are on that aren't really meant to. And if you've been to the garment district, the only roads that are worse are the ones in lower Manhattan down where we are now, but like the garment district has these

[46:03] like all bent, all the roads are messed up from heavy trucks, ears, just rolling over them all the time, right? So I'm rolling this thing back a couple blocks of my, uh, you know, my loft, where I lived at the time, and we roll it in, and, you know, I spend the next day and a half blowing all the roaches out of it,

[46:19] and, like, you know, completely nuking it such that there was nothing left alive in it, you know, making sure that I wasn't bringing a family of rats with me or anything like

[46:25] this. Disassemble the machine, put it back together. Unfortunately, the, uh, unfortunately, the one of the compressors was shot. In fact, 2 of the compressors were shot. So instead of 2 flavors and a twist, I had kind of one flavor where the cylinder compressor worked, and the actual refrigeration compressor

[46:42] thing that keeps the base going didn't work at all. So I had to like pack that with ice to get it to work. And this was the 1st time I'd ever made a huge quantity of ice cream base. And so what I'll say is this, when you're making, then this applies to anything. If you have low temperature, you're going to want to go ahead and because you're going to make gallons. If you have a nice soft serve ice cream machine. Like, I remember I was like, crap, I can't even fire this sucker up reasonably unless I'm making like 4 gallons. So I tried to make a 4 gallon or 5 gallon batch of ice cream base in my turkey frying

[47:14] pot, right? Now, if you've never done this before. It is very difficult to get an even temp and stupidly, because I'm a jerk. I tried to make, I tried to make the whole batch at once, just by whisking really hard. And the bottom of it, obviously, I got a little overheated. I didn't move it fast. And so all of a sudden I see bloop. I see all of these. I see the coagulated, overcooked egg float to the top. I'm like, no.

[47:40] So I tried filtering it out, right? Also, if you've met me, you know that I was very late and like I needed the ice cream on the table, right? Because I had it was family dinner. I need to have this stuff out. You know, Styles is shaking her head. She knows how I am. So I was like, oh, no, I didn't have the time to cool it down just by putting it in the case. So 1st of all, I filtered it out. sucker tastes like scrambled eggs. This was way prior to Heston Blumenthal making scrambled egg ice cream famous. I could have been like, well, I'm just doing Hestin Blumenthal's recipe. I'm just I'm just trying out this. Yeah, what do you mean? I meant to do this. This is what Heston does all the time. You know, listen, if you're not looking for scrambled egg ice cream, scrambled ice, egg ice cream. No good. And I haven't had Hestins. I sure it's delicious. I dont want to talk about that. So anyway, I need the coolest bass down super quick, right? That I had made and I had messed up part of it by curdling part of it. It was at the last minute to. It's always at the last minute that you ruin the bass, which is why it's so horrible. I thankfully hadn't burnt it because that would be the real Joker move, whatever. So it's all strained out, and I have it in a bus tub because I had lost the original thing in the bottom of the soft serve machine, and I threw dry ice into it, to try and cool it down faster, and of course, it tasted lightly carbonated when it came out of the soft

[48:41] serve because the soft serve hadn't frozen out all the water in it. And so I had this kind of carbonated scrambled egg ice cream. It was the worst ice cream I have ever made in my entire life. I then threw an ice cream party afterwards and quite smartly at the time, although it's a cop out, and we'll talk about ways not to cop out. Uh, I drove up to the Bronx to the Mr. Softy uh, warehouse where

[49:05] they actual trucks for Mr. Softy go, and I said, look, I'm not, look, I'm not trying to horn in on Mr. Softy's business.

[49:12] I have this ice cream machine. My wife's going to make me throw it away in about a week and a half . I'm going to have a big party. I'll pay whatever you want. Just let me buy like 5 gallons of Mr. Softy mix. And they did. They let me buy. It wasn't that much. I mean, the guy, I was not used to it to like, like a normal non-Mr. Softy guy showing up at the window where the Mr. Softy truck show up to buy their stuff and like kind of making this plea.

[49:34] And I guess he obviously looked at me and was like, this person is not a professional person in any sort of way. And so he sold me this stuff. party was insane. Party was nuts. We went through so much soft serve ice cream on that. But that said, I'm sure you want to make it the right way. The 1st thing to do, if you've never made huge batches before, is make them in smaller batches so that you don't do the stupid stuff that I did. Second, I mean, if you have an immersion circulator, I would just make it an immersion circulator in, um, kind of 2 liter, 2 liters at a time and just build it up 2, 3, to 4 liters at a time in bags and build up that way because you're much less likely

[50:07] to, uh, have a problem. It'll take you a little bit longer, but it's easier to chill and easier to keep done. And that said, if you want to know about the actual formulation of soft serve. The problem overrun in a soft serve ice cream machine isn't achieved the same way that you achieve overrun in regular ice cream with

[50:22] the with the churning thing. The way that soft serve literally injects air into the freezing cylinder at the same time that it injects the mixture in. So you change the overrun based on the orifice. If you look in a soft serve machine. There is a pump, the pump draws the base out of the, of the, at least the one I had out of the bottom of the unit, and injects it into the

[50:43] chamber through what looks like, you know, a MIG welding tip, a little orifice, and you change that orifice size to change the overrun.

[50:51] And so unscrupulous, people who are making sauce serve, what they'll do is they'll put an orifice in there that increases the overrun to like 100% or more so that you're getting more than, you know, more air than you are ice cream based in

[51:03] a finished product. You know, conversely, you can do like a super premium one by reducing the overrun by changing the orifice in it, which is what companies like Carvel do.

[51:12] So Carvel, you know, used to, and, you know, it's not super premium anymore by, you know, modern standards, but, you know, back in the 70s, they had a very low overrun ice cream that was still

[51:20] soft serve. That, why Carvel cakes once they're hardened or dense as hell because it's actually a very dense ice cream, which is why I like

[51:27] Carvel. And I, you know, whatever their flavoring is. I got, you know, I learned to love it when I was a kid, so I have no idea whether it's actually good or not. Um, right? Well, you didn't grow up with Carvel. Do you like it? It's okay. Yeah, but you didn't grow up with it. So it's, yeah, I mean, it's like it's like black and white cookies. If you didn't grow up with a black and white cookie, you don't love a black and white cookie. Jack, you grew up with black and white. We had this conversation last week. Yeah, black and white. Yeah. Okay. So, anyway, so the point is the overrun is controlled by the overrun is controlled by the orifice. So you can go buy a new orifice and they're fairly inexpensive. So whatever make you have, you can easily go buy the orifice to produce the overrun you want. The trick with soft serve machines. is that you have to adjust, you have to remember that they're going to be served warmer than a slightly warmer than a hard ice cream. So sugar levels need to be a little bit different. And what you need to guard against is over whipping because this thing sits there churning the entire time, even when you're not drawing. Uh, at least I believe that they always turn even when they're not drawing. So there's the issue that something might be in the cylinder much longer than it would be in a normal machine. And so you need to add emulsifiers to it to prevent over whipping in the cylinder as it goes. Now, a good place to go for this kind of information, if you just Google soft serve Guelph, G-U-E-L-P-H, which is where the university is that does a lot of the good dairy science stuff that's available on the web, and Goff, G-O-F-F, which is the professor's

[52:51] name, There's a huge PDF that you can look at on the internet that deals very specifically with all of the different all the different things that go into soft serve, including the fact that you want a higher milk fats, you know,

[53:07] sorry, non-milk fat solids, milk fats, non-solid. in, uh, in ice cream, um, because you're not going to have lactose crystallization problems over

[53:16] time and it increases the body of it. They talk about the fat content, and they actually give some proportions that you might want to use. And then you're just going to go out and get some good emulsifiers. I'm sure egg yolks are good enough to emulsify them to prevent the overturning, and they talk about fat contents and everything. So just go onto that. And they actually talk about changing the wetness or dryness perception of the ice cream based on whether you add certain salt. And this is something I never thought about before that. I'm going to do more research for the next time we do ice cream work, adding sodium

[53:43] citrate or different calcium to either make it wetter or drier, the ice cream. I had no idea. So that's something to look into. You gotta love Guelph. You gotta love Guelph. All right. So that's it. And shout out to John Riper, who says, Stas, sorry to hear the apples didn't arrive in the best of shape, but glad you could still go to tasting with

[54:00] them. Hey John, the chocolates were delicious. He sent us chocolates. Well, I see. And I, you know, look, and then I was told that I was throwing John under the bus saying that, you know, that they didn't

[54:09] get, It, not that they didn't come in the best of shape. you know, you want to know exactly what our tasting stuff is. And I, I, for one, really appreciated it, and I thank you, John. Cooking issues.

[54:30] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.