[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.

[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a Birth P3 and Brooke Wis... Bookwick. I wish it was bookwick. That would be awesome. Imagine this is just all bookstores out here. Yeah. But it would all be hipster books. Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245,

[0:50] joined as usual. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, no Piper today. Piper is working on the Sears all project, which is fully funded.

[0:59] Joined also, although, listen, people, I gotta be honest with you. Like, that's the, that's the goal we set, but, uh, Stas, tell him, tell him the sad

[1:08] truth. If we only make our goal, what happens? We barely break even. Not even though. It's not about breaking even though. about getting Sears alls to people. But, uh, we got some exciting news, uh, on the Sears. talk a little bit later about some things that we're going to add to stretch

[1:23] goals, maybe later today, some ideas that we're working on for it, in case you people care. And for those of you that don't know about the Searzole, the Searzole is now definitely going to happen because our Kickstarter was fun, go on Kickstarter and look at it if you haven't

[1:33] already. It's an attachment that turns an ordinary torch into a powerful handheld broiler that can finish all kinds of low temperature.

[1:42] In fact, I would go so far as to say that, especially if you're at home and you don't own a deck boiler. If you own a circulator, you should probably own a seers all, right? Yeah. Joined in the studio with Jack and Joe today. How you guys doing? We're good. We got Evan here too. New engineer. Hey, Evan, how you doing? How you enjoying this show? It's fantastic. I haven't really said anything else. It's nice though. nice. See, he's like, stop, you know, like if Nastasia was an engineer. She'd be like, man, I don't really know. I'm not paying attention. I don't care. That's what she would say, right? Oh, wow. Yeah. I guess that's why she doesn't have that job, though. Well, he's in the honeymoon period, so. Oh great. Okay, uh, a little update. Quick from Tom Fisher's the ongoing saga of Tom Fisher's eggnog, it's been aging. By the way, stars, our eggnog's been aging, right? Yeah, we tried it yesterday. Hey, thanks for letting me have taste. But listen, In fact, I was. You could have given me a taste when we were loading out. anyway. Uh, the, uh, I'm also, I probably ruined the eggnogs. I said I was going to bring in nutmeg and I didn't. Okay. Yeah? Why are you not a huge fan of like that? No, we can do it later. Yeah, but do you like a lot of nutmeg or no? Yeah I So how was how was your stuff? It was good. Just a little skim coat. was good. No, was yours better or Piper's better? We threw his out. Oh, boom. As soon as Piper is like away working. You like talk about his eggnog, like it's garbage. No, he said, we had to clean out the fridge yesterday. And I said, what about this? And he said, it's garbage about his own egg, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we can't talk crap about Piper on the show because as he says, my mom listens to this show, which I don't think she does. They don't have internet TV yet. He's just trying to make us feel bad. It's like classic like salty sailor Piper talk there, right? Yeah. Yeah, makes no sense. You know what I mean? Yes? It might be a good show on Heritage Radio, Salty Sailor Piper talk. Yeah, except for the fact is, is like he would just stare the microphone down. Like you have to talk into it, Piper, because the people on the other side can't see you just

[3:41] staring, glaring at the microphone. You know what I'm saying? Yep. Anyways. So, anyway, so back to Tom Fishers. For those of you that didn't hear the other episode. You want to talk about the MoFad event first? Well, let me finish the Tom Fisher thing. I can't believe, like, I'm actually trying to be on task for

[3:57] once, and you're, like, trying to throw me tangents. Learn Hans. We do that in a sec. Oh, and by the way, we have in the now, see, now in my brain, it's on a tangent. Thanks. We have some actual underground meets in the studio with us today that Stas and I are going to start tasting during the break and then continue tasting after the break and talk about it. very excited about that. Anyway, back to Tom Fisher's eggnog. those of you that don't remember. Thomas was making an aged eggnog, and we talked about the safety of it, and then whether or not it would thicken up. In fact, it has thickened. An update on the aged eggnog from a few weeks back, as the recipe indicated is thickened and turned from an off-white to a slightly beige color. Was yours also beige? You know, Booker, my son, has to wear a uniform to school every day, like, and it's this year it's maroon and khakis. And if you don't wear a uniform, you get detention, right? Which frightens him because he, like, he takes a bus home and he's worried he's going to miss the bus and he's like extremely nervous about this sort of thing. Uh, anyhow, so he calls khakis kahakis.

[4:57] He's like, are these kahakis? I don't want detention. I'm like, yes, yes, booker, those are kahakis. Anyway, so slightly beige color. However, milk fat is separated from the eggnog and floated to the surface. It looks an axe and tastes very much like the thickened cheese-like milk fat that rises to the top of unhomogenized milk. Should I strain it off and move on, or is there something nasty going on here? There are no odd smells or taste. Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving, Tom Fisher. Tom, dude, don't strain that sucker off. Whisk that fat back in, baby. You want the fat in the egg. like, did you get a crap on top? No. Well, if you had, when you whisked it back in. Yeah, you missed the you missed the important 3rd choice there, Tom, stir that stuff back in. Uh, you know, it's interesting. I don't know why it destabilized and whatever. Just start it back in. I sure it's delicious. I did have an okay thing. Is this our 1st one thing since Thanksgiving? Wow, it seems like so long ago. How was your Thanksgiving stuff? Good, it was good. I saw you posted like the entire family, searing on the stairs. I loved it. Yeah? Yeah they really loved it. Yeah, I liked it. There was a picture that Nastasia sent me of her mom using the series all, and then the caption, which not shareable in public of what she was shouting while she was

[6:05] using unrelated to series all, by the way. Like, completely like, like a diatribe, completely unrelated to the actual scene. No, it was because my dad was like, you need to hold it close. You need to hold it close. And then she was like, She like went off? I love it. can you can you share any of it with us? No. No, you know what she did her famous FU speech. You know, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree on this one. And one thing I've learned that Piper, somehow, is not for years working with you, is like when you're using the series,

[6:32] all, like trying to give you pointers. I'm like, Piper, are you a dunce? Like, you don't you don't tell Nastasia how to use the sears all while she's using it, right? That's a non-start. It's a non-starting, non-starting thing. By the way, do we have Pierre on the phone yet? We do? Oh, awesome. So, uh, let's get Pier on the phone. We're joined via phone today. good friend of ours, Pierre Cham, who is a chef here in New

[6:57] York, and also, you know, from originally from Senegal, has what I think is the only, at least the only, you know, one that I know of that's, you know, good Senegalese cookbook in English on the market here in the US.

[7:15] It's an excellent book. It's also beautiful. The pictures are beautiful. And having gone to center. He's the chef who sponsored the trip that we went over to Senegal, which was a fantastic trip. Um, and anyway, Pierre, uh, glad to have you on the show. How you doing? Hey, babe, I'm well. Yeah, good, good. By the way, you know, I was reading, I had a, the reason I called you today is we had a question regarding TB Jen coming in. And so I figured, which, by the way, for those of you that don't know, like, it's kind of the national dish of Senegal, wouldn't you say, Pierre?

[7:47] It is the national dish. You want to describe it really quickly for the folks? Uh, is the wall of wood that translates simply

[7:56] right and fish, but it's a little more complex than that. It's um, I would say, it's kind of a version of a paella, you know, if you go to the north of

[8:07] Senegal. That's where you see some of the seafood involved with it, but the simple

[8:11] tube is really a fish, firm, white flesh

[8:16] fish, could be a group, uh, could be a snapper. Sometimes bluefish, you know, it depends, and it's stuffed with parsley mixture. The fish and stuff is the firstly mixed, and it's cooked in a broth, that has tomatoes, and all the vegetables that are cooked, that comes with cheese, which must be root vegetables,

[8:35] tasava, yucca, sweet potatoes, cabbage, and um,

[8:39] okra, and then the, that same broth, we cook rice in it. So the rice is cooked in that slow red tomato broth and it comes with the rice comes out right red. That's why I was making the connection with fire. So um, that's basically what it is. You have a rice, red rice, the fish that's stuffed with probably a puffy mixture, and the broth that has a cooked, all the root vegetables and the fish, and it finishes with

[9:10] a, it's such a tamarine actually. So it has a, uh, uh, uh, sweet and sour end to the to the whole, to the whole dish. Right, but they also, like, the characteristic. Like when you go to Senegal, right? what's amazing is the different kinds of fermented products. Right. The gadge, without the gadge, you don't have yourself to the gen, right? No, no, no, no, absolutely, absolutely. You're getting deep there, but you're right. The gadget is a big component of the jibijon. When you cook that broth. You add the gadget to it, and um, and the, the gadget in the, in the, in

[9:52] the tomato broth that I mentioned, and uh, the yet as well, another uh, fermented conch. The gadget is a semantic fish, and the yet is a semantic conch. And both of these add that to money flavor to the

[10:05] chicken, and that's very, very important. You just put a small portion of the dead because it's very, very important and very, very strong. So that's, that's what

[10:14] makes that, uh, fomantic flavor to the chicken. Right, it's potent and strong. And for people who aren't used to it, it's, you know, they're like a little freaked out by the aroma, but the stuff is straight up delicious. The yet, especially, I mean, the gadge, you, I guess you can eat the chunks straight a lot, but

[10:30] yet, I can eat that after it's been like braised. I can just eat it a lot of it. It's good. I love it. It's, you know, it's not quite a taste for some people, but I mean, you and I, we, we really are adventurous, and I love the gadget, the yet, you know, it's, it's hard that chewiness, but it's also tormented,

[10:48] so it, it breaks quite easy. If it's cooked for a long time, it, it, it breaks and diges very easily. It's delicious. I love it. I mean, another, before we get to the actual question, since, you know, we have you on the phone, we don't get to have you on the phone very often. There's a lot of spices over there that I think have, uh, so, I mean, obviously, uh, you know, yet

[11:07] engage are not uh, vegetarian, but there's a lot of fermented products in uh, in Senegalese food that are really, really, really good for vegetarian

[11:20] cooking that have not become popular with chefs over here. And I think the one that strikes pops right into my head right away is Netudu. Yes, absolutely. Neta 2 is actually it's a locust, uh, from a tree, right? It's not a look at an animal. it's like a leg room pod from a tree, yeah. Exactly. A leg room from a tree that's allowed to throw men. Uh, we call it neteu, but the fruit itself is called nere. And after the fermentation process, that becomes made too. And uh, and also it's a, it's, it's an amazing flavor. It's very popular throughout West Africa. Not only in Senegal, but you see it in, in, in Mali, in Guinea, even in Nigeria, and that's

[12:03] uh, you know, it comes with different names, but that's the same exact uh, uh, legume, and it's good for vegetarian. There's no, no, no, no animal in it. Yeah, and I mean, in rice dishes, in broths. It can all of a sudden, you know how like a lot of times vegetarian rice dish. It sometimes difficult to get the kind of power, flavor, and umami you want, nectitude, bang. Delicious, right? It's amazing. You know, even, you know, the, uh, one way to pretend that I particularly like is in the south of synagogue in Kazamas, which next time we definitely have to make it to that part of Senegal. next time you go to synagogue. But you know how they cook it? They cook the rice, you know, just the simple rice, rice, let's say, and at the end of the cooking process, when the water has evaporated, you open your path, you cover the cover of the rice, and you, you dig a hole in the middle of the rice, and that's needed to, which you have mixed with onion to make it, uh, you know, a grated onion to make it into a bowl, a liquid, uh, uh,

[13:06] a thick paste. And that thick is just buried in inside the right and you just close it back and you allow it to sit there for like 10 minutes. No fire. Just tell me the right steaming, with that native to that native to ball. Do you picture the what I'm trying to say? Yeah, yeah. Very, very simple, but... Does it perfume the whole thing? Does it perfume the whole thing? Yeah, it perfumes the whole thing. It's the, and the native to board itself has that, uh, very, very flavorful

[13:39] rice slush, so many. It's just an amazing, it's really difficult to describe, you have to take it very, it's delicious. Could you do it in a rice cooker? Oh, yes, absolutely. You can do it in the right cooker. Again, once the water has evaporated, you just dig a hole in the right, in the middle of the right, and you put that bowl of meta 2 that you mix with, with onion, just simply knit it to an, onion, you can add some chili pepper to bring some

[14:04] heat with, but you make a small bowl, you know, the size of a, that kind of, half of

[14:08] a fish, and you put it in the middle of the right, and, and you close it back. Do you use the powdered net to the seeds or the whole pods? The powder knitted too is fine. The whole part is fine, but the powdered native, which is easier to have here in New York, you know, in the African market. And that's all you use. The pardon, that's why you add the onions, because the onions bring that,

[14:29] the, the, the, the, the juice of the onion would make it into a paste, into, you know, and

[14:33] the, and the paste. You can for shape it into a bowl and that little bowl is what you what you put into the rice. Right. And for people who go out and I hope they do go to, you know, find local African markets and buy the netitude. Do not judge, do not judge what's going to happen to the food you cook based on the initial dry smell of the net to do. It's totally different once it's cooked. Completely, completely. Yeah, that would, that would not, I mean, don't smell it, I guess. That would turn you off. you know, it's very strong, like I say, it's very, very important. But David, you tasted it and you know the difference. It's a, it's a drastic difference. It brings so much flavor to you. any dish, any dish, vegetarian dishes, you'd feel like, you know, you, you haven't had anything vegetarian before because it's

[15:22] freaking vegetarian, but it's so much, so much flavor again, so much tape. Another thing over there that I thought was really interesting was that you, I don't even know the name of it, but these fermented onion balls, these

[15:33] dried, fermented onion balls, that are like, they look like kind of crushed. They look like just chopped up onions and balls and fermented. We bought them in a market. Yeah, and they, you know what, they, that's the one, they add submitted to it. The fermented. Are we talking about the ones, it's already shaped, right? In a bolo? Yeah, it's already shaped in a ball and dried. So it's very similar to what you're saying, just a dried version of it. Exactly. Yep, yep, yep, exactly. Those are delicious. It's great. It's delicious. Yes. I'm glad you remember those. They're amazing. They're really amazing. I didn't know they had the net 2 in it already. Yeah, that stuff is great. It's amazing. Another spice that you don't get over here very often that's more specialized for the

[16:15] Cafe Tuba, although I'm thinking I'm trying to get that on the menu at Booker and Dax at the bar is the,

[16:21] and here's another thing, like, wool-off words are impossible for English, you know, American English people to pronounce.

[16:27] I literally sat there for about 10 minutes with the seller. this, trying to pronounce the spice. And I would think I was saying exactly what he was saying, but I wasn't Jer. I can't pronounce it. So like, jit. How do you say it in real life? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and no, they're like, John? He's like, no, no, no. John. Yeah, yeah, I can't get it. It's impossible to get. It's funny. Yeah, you should, you should, I, I can definitely taste your

[16:58] cupcare as a book and that's with, with, with that spices, yeah. I, I, I, I, remember, I knew that she came to the festival with us. Yeah, we were talking about a needle low, by the way, folks. Really amazing chef here in New York. Go ahead. Yeah, she had a special vagina at her restaurant for quite some time. It was very popular. She made a salad with it with beet and goat cheese. Very, very creative, and cocoa, cocoa powder too. I was amazed by the flavor. Well, the interesting thing about it is it's got a lot of notes of, it's got some peppery notes, but it also has some more resony notes and it's almost some, like, a kind of, almost, I don't know, cardamomine notes and resony notes,

[17:38] but it's not at all, like, and people confuse it. It's not at all like what we call Bolognese long peppers. It's totally different. totally different flavor. Um, and I read in English that uh, the translation into English is, get this one, Pierre, grains of Selim, but I don't know if that's true or

[17:59] false because... Oh, you know what? That's the 1st time I heard about it, I neither, actually, she mentioned that when she was trying to translate it on her menu. She did say Venos, but I didn't know that, you know, I really didn't know, and just, I didn't know that's why it was called in English. But you know, maybe. It's called that in English maybe, but no one uses it in English speaking country. So there's no point. I think it's much better to try and use the Woloff word. The problem is none of us can pronounce it properly. Uh, but, you know, they they use it there in, in the, in the cafe tuba, which is a great, you know, a great and very distinctive kind of

[18:33] Senegalese, uh, drink, uh, the Morids, uh, you know, this Sufi brotherhood, which by the way, they're extremely, uh, they, they're like, why

[18:43] you want to talk about the, man, it's not really food, but give me, give me a couple words on the Morids. Oh, me? Oh, you're talking about the movie, the movie that, like, uh, Sushi Brotherhood, like you say, Seneganese Muslims, uh, mostly from 2 families, and they also feel, um, you don't really have the traditional, sweetly soon in Senegal, and that's also one of the reasons why the, the country is very tolerant, because, uh, you know, they, they transcend the, the strictly Orthodox uh, part of Islam, as you, you probably

[19:17] not when you were in Senegal, you know, it's pretty, you know, it doesn't strike to you, strike you as like this strict Muslim country. It's a, it's a 90% Muslim country, but most of them, uh,

[19:29] Sufi, you know, so they, they are very tolerant of other religions, you know, uh, you know, it's equal to, uh, uh, a lake country, it's not an Islamic country,

[19:38] so, so you can, you have your drinks, you can have your, you know, the, the brows are open. You know, uh, to make a long story short, the movie, uh,

[19:48] following, uh, uh, uh, a man called Amadubamba, who, who came to Senegal during the colonial time, and he had a Pacific type of resistance, could be compared to,

[20:00] uh, to Gandhi, in India, for instance. And uh, and uh, they, they, they, they're growing. They're becoming, they probably are right now the, the largest Sufi group in the country, they're very powerful. They self-reliable, they, they, they very entrepreneurial, you know, you see a lot of movies traveling the world, you see, many of the people you see, the Senegalese, you see selling in the streets of New York City or Hong Kong or Paris, uh, mostly Murray, and they, they, you know, they, they,

[20:30] uh, that's uh, like I said, entrepreneurial group, and this coffee that we're talking about the drink that we're talking about, is called

[20:37] Cafe Tuba, and Tuba is the name of the, the holy city of the movie. You know, that's a city that's a couple of hours from Daka. The Maurits believe that tuba is, is going to tuba is as good as going to, to the, to Mecca. you know, the more we go to tuba. They don't go to Meca and Pedrimage, for instance. Um, so basically that's uh, you know, in 2 minutes, that's what

[21:01] to move. And our question, by the way, to get back to the question, if someone answered the reason that we're on the

[21:07] phone together, they're going to be talking about rice. Now, yeah, as we said, Tibagen is rice and fish, rice incredibly important to it. Usually it typically would have been made back in the day with broken rice, right? To thicken it up, you know? Oh, it is still made with broken rice. But you can make it with, with, you know, with regular jasmine, right? So that's not you, right? But he said, like, uh, the, the, the 2 chair, we journey with broken rights, yes. Right. So that's going to release some of the starch in while it's cooking, which is going to be important for the thing that's coming up. But before I get into the question, um, so for those of you that don't know kind of Senegalese geography at all, the

[21:45] Cosimans is in the south, right? And, uh, and, you know, what Pierre was saying, the kind of the heart of

[21:51] Tibigen is in San Luis, which is in the very north on the river, right? Yes, correct. So, uh, or not in the, or it's, well, it's in the northern part anyway, right? San Luis North. Yeah, yeah, you need the by the river, you're right, you're right about that. So, um, So the point is, is that in Kazimans, what a lot of people don't think about is that the original rice of Kazimans is not Asian rice. The original rice of cosmonts is a globarima rice, which was actually domesticated in Africa.

[22:27] And I think probably in Senegal and Gambia, right? I mean that's originally where it comes from. Now, those rice have been even locally, except for in small areas, completely replaced, unfortunately, with Asian rice, correct or not correct?

[22:44] That's correct, yeah. Now, would Tibo Jen originally been made with the Glaborima or

[22:49] would, or is that, in other words, do they, would they also have had the Glaborima up in San Luis or would it always there have been made with the Asian

[22:57] rice? No, no, no. It was always the glabarina until anti-colonial time until we started to import rice that originally came from the other part of the French colonial empire, like the whole Vietnam

[23:10] region, and now our right is unfortunately imported. I think, unfortunately, because people prefer to import rights rather than using the local. And

[23:18] it's been for, it bought it from, from Indonesia and, you know, Southeast Asia.

[23:23] But, uh, originally, no, the rights came from, from Kazamas, from the, the same region, because it wasn't only Kazamas and Gambia, but, you know, you had the

[23:31] Glagarima, is also in Guinea, in Sierra Leone, in, in Liberia. It was the African rice, you know, and that rice is as ancient as, as far

[23:41] as, uh, you know, um, anthropologist or concern, as I mentioned, as the Asian

[23:45] rights. So, you know, so we have 2 families, 2 major families of

[23:50] rights, the African, right? And the Southeast Asian, right? Right. That came about same time. You know, I don't remember, because we didn't, like, we didn't get to go to Cosmons when I went there, but I don't know that we even had Glabarima when we were over there, did we? I, I thought we probably didn't know. We didn't have glabrima because again, like I said, the whole northern part of Senegal is, is, is, is, is eating imported rice. Remember, one of the reasons why we, we, we had this event is to, we just promote local cuisine and to, and to, to, to showcase what we really

[24:26] have, and and, and, and to change the, the, the, the, the people way of thinking that when it comes from

[24:32] elsewhere, it's better than what we have. at home and that's unfortunately the case in in in many of the cities in Africa, you know, we import a lot of our food and and, and the local goods are eaten by the, in the country, by, by the, you know, the rural area, but in the urban areas, people think it's best to, or to import, food from, from, from elsewhere, and uh, and the, the Asian rice, is, is very, very popular in the northern part of Senegal, in Seneg, in St. Louis, in Dhaka. and

[25:04] it's going competing with the, the tradition of the glabarina, the glabarima is still being grown in a very artisanal way, so it's not industrial. It just comes a few months out of the year, like a couple months when the harvest comes, and then, you know, it's finished. But it's, it's, uh, you know, it's changing gradually, now it's people, uh, people are realizing that not only, you know, is

[25:28] healthier, right? But it has another flavor that we, unfortunately, you didn't get to experience when we were there. I'm trying to find a way to bring some blabber here in New York and we will definitely have a there to be. Yeah sure. You know, get New Yorkers like me to pay a premium for it, and then maybe it'll get more respected where it comes from, except for then you might have

[25:50] the whatever, when I was over there, everyone was talking about the quinoa problem. You make something that's popular and then all of a sudden the people who make it and rely on it can no longer afford it. So it's very hard to win. You know what I mean? It's hard to win, but you know, that's a good problem to have, hopefully, the quinoa experience will help us deal with, you know, with that problem before it occurs.

[26:11] But it's really something we need to, to, to, to work on because that would be so unfortunate to, to have, you know, cities like

[26:20] this disappear. Because of, you know, competition. They, they great disease. All right, so listen, we have a caller who's, we're going to, we're going to take them together, Pierre, whoever the

[26:30] color's going to ask, but then after that, before we go to break, we're going to get to the question, which is about the crispy rice at the bottom of the tibu

[26:36] Jen. someone wants to know how to make it. And so I figure the best way is to get a official Senegalese cook on

[26:44] the on the right. caller, you're on the air. Hey? Yeah, I have a couple questions on low time cooking. Oh, sure. Specifically, I have a few friends that are pregnant, and I'm wondering about

[26:57] trade-offs and cooking to pasteurize or being safe when cooking for people that are pregnant,

[27:03] and, you know, balancing for like fish, beef and chicken, against, you know, texture and quality. Yeah. Um, and then also wondering about, you know, storage guidelines for, uh, low time cooking, so without a vacuum. Right. So when I'm cooking for uh, pregnant people with a circulator, which I have a lot, um, when you're cooking eggs for Benedicts, just cook them at 62 for a full hour and they're good.

[27:29] You're safe. When you're doing any other meat cuts, I go to pasteurization temperatures.

[27:36] So like for 55 degree steak, you're going to want to let it go for probably, I mean, it's overkill, but once the core reaches the

[27:47] temperature like 120 minutes or something like that, that's actually overkill, but I like to overkill when I'm dealing with

[27:52] this because you don't want it to be your fault. So it's gonna take, you sear the, you sear the outside. Uh, you know, you, and then you cook it. Um, it'll, you know, a normal size rib steak will probably start its, uh, kill, uh, kill stuff within, uh, at the center will start killing within, probably, you know, 40 minutes or

[28:11] so, and then, uh, after it reaches that killing stage, you hold it for the

[28:16] 120. For this kind of a thing, I really recommend getting one of the iPhone or iPad apps like

[28:22] sous vide dashboard or, you know, the poly-science one because they're good at just figuring out exactly based on the thickness, like how long it's going to take to get to a temperature. When it comes to fish, fish is kind of a pain in the butt. It's impossible to pasteurize most fishes and still have them taste good. Fishes, fish. Uh, and uh, so uh, ones that can tolerate it are the firm flesh whitefish. So stripers are good. Um, because you can cook a striper, you know, at 55, 56, 57. It may be firmer than you normally like to cook it, but it's still, it hasn't gone dry, and the meteor white fish like that are better when they're overcooked as opposed to,

[28:59] uh, you know, overcooked, uh, you know, tuna is wretched, over, you know, overcooked salmon even at those temperatures is pretty wretched. But a striper can kind of put up with that sort of thing. So those things can be, um, those things can be done. The, if you don't have a vacuum, the question, you know, you putting it in a Ziploc, you know, it's hard for me to give actual guidelines for storage times, I'm always like when I'm cooking for someone, I'm kind of like just hyper about

[29:28] it, when I'm cooking for pregnant or someone who's, you know, hospitalized or sick. So I tend not to store things for a long time unless I have to because I'm the only person that can cook for them and I only see them once a week and you should be okay for that, especially if they're doing a

[29:41] retherm and if they do a retherm, they can do like a temporary retherm in like a really hot bath before they bring it up slowly

[29:48] the temperature and you should be all right. Is that uh, answer the questions? Yeah, thank you. And I'm in 1st years all. And what? Oh, really cool. awesome. Oh, sweet, sweet. Well, enjoy it, enjoy it. We're gonna we'll talk more about it either later or next week about kind of some new uses we found

[30:06] and where we are in the in the thing, but thanks so much for backing us. Have a good one. All right, thanks. All right, Pierre, here we are back on the, back on the rice in the Tiba Jen. Okay, so this word, which is wall off, which I will not attempt to pronounce, X-O-O, and then end with the Enya on it. do you say that? crispy rice at the bottom. Oh, you got you have to come from the from the back of your throat. Oh, no. It's close to the Spanish hotter, you know? Yeah. Oh, man, that's impossible. It's impossible gear. So to backtrack in case, you know, you're just joining in. So TV Jen, you take your rice, I mean, you take your fish, you slice it, you stuff it with like a herb mixture, you cook it a little bit with oil and onions,

[30:58] then you make a broth, and then you put the rice in, you cook with tomato, you cook it with the

[31:02] broth and the root vegetables. The rice soaks up the liquid, but in the bottom of the pot, you get this crispy, say that again. Oh, yeah. And for many people, this is their favorite part, yes? Oh, yes, it's a must, you know, perfect cube again. You have to have that golden crust, golden brown crust. From the bottom of the butt when you cook the cubion, it comes on the side. And uh, and that's, that's

[31:30] right. It really is a great way to, to enjoy your, with and it adds texture to it. It has that crispy texture to the, to the, to the moist rice and I love it. I really love it. So much flavor. So give me the secrets. Is it the pot, the heat, the combination of the heat in the pot? Is it the oil that goes in the bottom? I mean, I'm sure the oil has something to do with it. But just tell us like the secrets to get a good one. Absolutely. Or, or, and the part, you know, when you, when you cook it, you start, when you start the chicken, then you start with the oil and the

[32:02] tomatoes, right? You cook the oil and the tomatoes, allow it to cook slowly until the tomatoes are cooked. You know, you can use tomato and tomato paste, actually. And you allow it to cook slowly, slowly, until the tomato goes from red to, like, mini dark, red, almost black, but you don't want to burn it. You don't want to burn it, but as you cook it, if you see that it's starting to burn, add water a little bit at a

[32:30] time, like a tablespoon to 2 tablespoons at a time. But slowly, you know, that's before you add your water, that's where to cook the rice and the vegetables and everything else. You have to cook only oil and tomato. Am I making sense here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So once you cook it to that point where the tomatoes are cooked and the sugar is released because you should

[32:51] be releasing sugar, you realize there's a caramelization that's happening. That's why the tomatoes going from red to almost black, but not black. You don't want it to be burnt again. But that sugar is going to, a sugar combination of the sugar and the oil are going to be the, the, the, the, the, agent that will crystal

[33:13] rice. Yeah. And you know, there's, there's, like a lot of cultures have this love of the crispy bottom of the, of the thing in Iranian cooking, you have that, you know, you know, they have the crispy stuff at the, at the bottom. Uh, you know, I think they they use binders like egg and yogurt in theirs, right? They cook it and then they do the egg and the yogurt. I forget it. It's been a long time since I've looked up the recipes for that stuff. And then also in South, South, you know, cooking of South Carolina on the old style, which probably is all from

[33:42] West Africa anyway. Uh, you know, they have these crispy, uh, crispy casserole rice dishes. The difference is Tibu Jen is not turned out like a, like a, like a casserole dish. It's like, it's, it's scooped out of the pot and then the crust is served separately, right? It's presented on a platter. Yeah. It is for separate me, exactly. So separately. Or if you eat around in a ball, like we'd eat traditionally. It serves on the corner of the ball, you know, it comes on a platter, but, you know, they put it on the corner to to the people who will be eating the

[34:14] crust because not everyone eats the crust. You know, we try to like, take it for, you know, the mature people. You don't give it to the kids, you give it to all the kids. So it's just the whole, the whole cultural thing behind, behind, you know, who's allowed to have part of that

[34:27] club. Another interesting thing about the crust I'm wondering is that, you know, one of the strange things about, uh, about, uh, Senegal is cooking right now that, uh, you know, I just heard from, you know, listening to the, we went to a seminar about it, uh, is that people are using more and more oil, not for the taste, but just as a sign of being able to use more oil in

[34:50] it. And do you think that's affecting the way that the crust is being formed in general

[34:53] in the average tibu jan are affecting cooking in general in Senegal and the way things taste now versus the way they would have tasted, you know, 80, 100 years ago?

[35:00] It is affecting. It is, it's affecting the way people Yeah, the way people are eating. For some reason, it is seen as a sign of, of wealth, you know? If the more oil you use, the more uh affluent you are. Uh that's something that came up. I believe, also again, in colonial time, then gradually, when peanut oil arrives, you know, peanut oil, at 1st was palm oil, for, you know, traditional palm food, or it was our, our, our oil of choice, and uh, and peanut oil became

[35:35] something, uh, pretty, pretty popular with this year, you know, the French factories game, and they made peanut oil and peanut oil, so one of those, uh, you know, crops that were, uh, people don't

[35:48] realize what peanut was, was imported to Senegal. It was not a traditional Senegalist from. You know, it came from the Americas, as a matter of fact. We had, we had something similar to peanut ground nuts, you know, but it wasn't, it wasn't as, uh, it wasn't used the way, you know, toilet

[36:05] used right now. So anyway, it became a sign of affluent because again, you know, we wanted to be like the colonials, so, you know, uh, the colonials use that oil we use, the more we use, the more upluent we are, and

[36:17] it came, it came into our, our recipes too, and now you see people using more peanut oil into their rice, and uh, it came, it also, it also brought some, some, some

[36:30] diseases. Unfortunately, some diseases got imported with it. You see, um, diabetes, for instance, which wasn't part of our, you know, of the illnesses that

[36:39] exist in Senegal. It's something that's very popular now because of that change of diet. You know, and the excess of sodium, all those things, uh, uh, uh, uh, affecting the, the, the, the, the, the population, uh,

[36:54] the, unfortunately due to the change of diet again. But, um, to get back to your question with the oil, the crust and the oil, that's really,

[37:04] the oil is very important to it, but it doesn't have to be in

[37:08] excess. You know, it's important to have the 1st steps when you prepare that right. The oil and the tomato, studying the cooking process, has enough oil, but it shouldn't be uh, you know, more than uh, a couple tablespoons of, or, you know, for uh, a nice pot of rice, and you cook it slowly, again, cook it slowly, before you add once the tomatoes are cooked

[37:33] nicely, caramelized, then you add your water, allow the water to boil, and then you add rice, and you cook, and you close the

[37:40] right at that stage, and you just, Close it and lower the the the heat. You know, to a simmer, just like you would cook regular, right? And you forget about it now. Do not touch that part until all the water, all the juice that tomato broth has evaporated. Once it has evaporated. Still allow it to sit for a moment, and then you fluff your right, you redistribute the tomato, you have

[38:07] your bright red, right, and you realize at the bottom of that butt, that crust, that coin that we're talking about, has formed, you know, so you pull out the right, and with the spool, so, uh, you know, you just take out the crust, you know, with, you know, it takes some, somewhere else strength to

[38:25] eat, but you pull out the crust with, and just, Just rake the bottom of that part, and that's how you get the crust, you know, just allow it to cook slowly. First of all, just again, let the tomato cook and caramelize before you

[38:39] otherwise, and then do not touch it. Do not stir it. Let the cross form in the bottom. Very, very, very, very simple process actually. All right, well, beautiful, Pierre. Pierre's book, which has a recipe for Tibajen is Yole, right? Yolele still available right now on Amazon. It's got, it's the only one available, right? The only one in English available, yes. And yeah. As a matter of fact, there's another book coming up next 4 to be working on it. It's still a, uh, the working title, Senegal from the source to the table. You'll hear about it. All right, well, come on the show and we'll push it. Absolutely, will. All right, thanks, Pierre. Thanks for talking, uh, talking cross, hone, hone. I can't pronounce it. Oh, no. on you. All right, we're going to take a commercial break and we'll be right back. Thanks, beer. Thanks, babe.

[39:49] Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While underground meats uses European traditions, They also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tamworts, Berkshires, and mule foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin.

[40:49] And we're back. Welcome to cooking issues or welcome back to cooking issues. So, we're tasting the underground meats, and let me get this straight. The ones that they sent us are all, they're all goat, you said? Pretty sure it's all goat slami, right? Salumi. Goat loomy? And so we're tasting. What are we tasting here, Stas? That one is Pinocchio. You just had pepper. You things are good. These things are good. Now, for those of you that don't know, Underground Meats recently had a Kickstarter of their own. and they have successfully funded it, and they are now going to work on a Hasset plan so that they can get Hasset

[41:32] certification. They can do challenge studies they get, and then everyone can use it. So look for these guys to help anyone listening, uh, to create

[41:41] a, a hasset plan is going to allow them to, um, make their own salumi business without having to go through all the expense, which

[41:50] one is this one? That one is goat salami, just goat salami. And then this one is Socion Sec. That goat salami is good business. What do you think? I haven't had any yet. She had to take out her gum. It's really good. Really good stuff. Alright. So, um, I mean, the obvious thing tasting it. I'm not gonna, like, torture you guys was sitting here eating. I'll wait until we're off mic toward interesting here eating delicious salami. You gave the web address, undergroundmeats.com. www.undergroundmeats.com. Is that good? Yeah. So anyway, so the point is that you taste it. It's, um, you know, most of them anyway, the ones that are tender are, um, low acid product, which means a lot of times when you're having a salumi, someone produces. They just try to, they jack the acidity right away to kill off anything that's in it and also kind of covers up faults in the meat and

[42:54] faults in the curing, but from a very high acid kind of slime. You've had that happen before stuff, right? When you eat someone's slime plate, it's just super high acid. Lactic acid is. And these, you know, at least a lot of them from the ones I've tasted so far don't taste like super high acid. They're really taking a lot of care in

[43:10] it. And you can tell that they really care about what they're doing. It's delicious product. Stas is no longer going to be listening because she's just pounding. No, you haven't had all of them. All right, all right. All right. Okay. Uh, oh, we should talk about, uh, we should talk We have only a couple minutes left, I guess. We should talk about the MoFat event. So MoFed, the museum of food and drink, uh, is doing its, so we have the puffing gun, which is kind of going underground right now. We're rejiguring it again to be able to take it to schools, hopefully after the winter break. They call it winter break now. winter break. Oh, by the way, if you're out there, uh, we don't actually have a way to send you a, uh, do you

[43:49] know what I was realizing this on the Sears all, uh, on the thing that we're doing that, um, we said we were going to send people cards for

[43:56] Christmas. We don't have their email addresses. They don't Kickstarter doesn't give you the email addresses until the Kickstarter is over. So I don't know how the heck we're going to do that. We got to figure that out. Because I was going to say we could send you, you know, you still have a couple days left to purchase a future

[44:08] Searzol as a Hanukkah present for somebody. So if you want to, But we can't say, we can't send you a card saying, blah, blah, we can put one up that people can print out. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Well, this is a holiday card. Well, if someone buys it for Hanukkah, it's not a holiday card. a freaking Hanukkah card. If someone buys it for Christmas, it's a if someone has a generic holiday, then we will send them a generic holiday card. No? Sure. No? Anyway. I mean, if you can be specific, be specific. If you cannot be specific, be generic. No? Is that is that a bad? No, well, we can do that. Okay. Uh, so, uh, we have uh, we have a question. Oh, museum, museum of food and drink on Thursday, we have our 1st ever forum that we're running. I'm going to be the moderator. So, uh, you know, Peter Kim, the director of the museum there, specifically tells me that I'm not supposed to interject any actual personal opinions into this, which is going to be, it's going to be very

[45:03] difficult. Not used to not interjecting personal opinions. But, uh, the whole point is, is that we are, um, we're trying to have a debates about food where we actually get both sides of the argument in and not just freak show hacks, but, uh, you know, uh, paper tigers and whatnot to fight each other, but

[45:21] real as smart, uh, smart and as good a people as we can get from either side of a debate to come together in a moderated discussion, uh, in front of people that we're going to record and then, um, later make available to everyone who can't be there. And the 1st one that we're going to tackle is the soda band. Do you have the information for that stuff? Yeah, I do. So it's this Thursday. December 5th at 6.30 p.m. at the Cuney School of Public Health. It's free online. If you go to roundtable.mofad.org. And it's hosted by Dave, and there's, um, Joel Berg from the NYC

[45:55] Coalition against Hunger, Nicholas Freudenberg from the NYC Food Policy Center, some guy named Park Wild from Tufts University.

[46:03] Well, I mean, Justin Wilson for the Center for Consumer Freedom and Lisa Young from NYU. So it should be a spirited debate and, you know, some guy, some guy, some

[46:19] place, toughs. guy. He doesn't say his position? Yeah, all right, all right. Anyway, so that should be fun and we'll report back and tell you how to tune in to listen to the thing. Yeah, I'm gonna be there. Sweet. So you excited, Joe? I am. I'm really excited Should I, should I get all frothy at the mouth and like, uh, like we have to, I've never moderated. I have to choose a moderation style. Do I want to be like the total like mellow moderator? Do I go like Tim Lusser? Yeah, I think you can be mellow in this situation. But I mean, what do you do? Tim Russert style? Remember Tim Russert? Be like Charlie Rose. Yeah, that'd be good. What about what about Piers Morgan? No, he gets involved. Yeah, but like, that's the thing, like, that's, that's about his least involved, like, again, it's probably kind of like a Piers Morgan kind of a situation. I would like to see you really try to not, like, people won't know either. You know what? Stestas doesn't care about the actual equality of the event. She only wants to see me squirm and not interject my opinion. That's the only thing she really cares about. know your opinion. I think you should show up in like an umpire. Baseball umpire uniform. Take that route. I thought you were going to say a yellow Unitard. Well, that would also be interesting. I don't dress in Unitards anymore. Okay. So we have that going on. And then we have take a question in because I don't want to run out of time before we do it. Here's the question. From Zach in Pittsburgh. I know you love stock. Please help me out. Some places say you use roasted bones for a tasty stock. Other places say use raw ingredients for a tasty stock. Obviously, they both can't be done at the same time, or can they? What's your take on the issue? Have a good one, Zach, from Pittsburgh. Well, okay, look. To me, they're just, they're totally different, right? So if you a roasted meat. I mean, white, if you're making a white stock, you want to have, I mean, you need like maybe some bones in there for collagen, but you need some more meat to kind of bolster it. And by the way, on a non-roasted bone thing. I consider, if you cook a chicken, let's say, or whatever, and you take the carcass from that cooked chicken and you throw that into a pot. That might as well be a white a white stock, as far as I'm concerned, non-roasted, because you're not having any kind of brown

[48:31] on it. Now, in general. I don't know that I agree with this. I mean, they taste very different, but people tend to say that, uh, well, look, it's obvious the brown ones, the roasted ones have that brown roasted flavor to it. So you have that you know, that flavor. If that's the flavor you're looking for, then you need to roast the

[48:50] bones, period. Now, if what you want is just clean meat flavor and you don't want all those browning things, then you can go for

[48:58] a, uh, for a white stock. I will say this. Most of the meat that we buy before it's cooked is pretty flavorless. And the reason it's flavorless is because it's usually, well, it's not cooked. and it's also very kind of young. If you want to do a white stock, let's say, a white broth of chicken, you're going to want to get an old hen, a stewing hen because that sucker, even if you don't roast it, is going to have a delicious flavor. If I had a really delicious hen that, you know, was old, had been laying eggs its whole life and then stopped, you know, laying

[49:30] eggs so they popped it and then, you know, you have that thing to cook. That guy, I probably wouldn't roast it because I would rather have the pure flavor of the chicken coming through.

[49:40] If you're having a broiler chicken that's only a couple of weeks old and you have a bunch of carcasses of it, right? Because you've used the meat for some other purpose because the meat's very tender because it's really too

[49:51] young and hasn't developed a lot of flavor. Well, then I would roast the hell out of those things because the fact of the matter is, there's not much flavor going on in there. If you have, you know, you know, most veal, we're roasting off all the veal stuff because veal really hasn't, I mean, I love veal, but veal really hasn't developed that much flavor yet. So you roast it, you get a lot kind of more flavor. If you have something that you don't necessarily, if you're making a stock like pork, pork, you better cook that sucker. Like a raw pork stock smells kind of like raw. Do you like raw, smell of raw, raw pork stock? I don't even... Well, really porky, but not necessarily in the way that, like... Yeah. You know how there's like good porky and there's bad porky? And it never used to bother me except for when we went through it. Remember we went through that period where we were boiling all those pork skins for making chicharrons and like always smell for days with the boiling pigskins. So anything that reminds me of boiling pigskins. Like anything that reminds me of like, kind of also like, I love tripe, but

[50:50] tripe before you prepare, like anything that kind of, how they kind of have that bleachy, weird thing from when they prepare, like, I love tripe, though. But anyway, my point is, is that like usually for a pork stuff, I'm gonna roast it off. Chicken, like young chickens roasted off. Old animals that have a lot of flavor. They can get away with being more purely the meat flavor. Now, yeah, you can always have the best of or the worst, depending on how you look at it, of both worlds. If you have, if you have a, like a really meaty, uh, meat, you can, you can kind of mix and match or you can get something in between. You can get the cleanliness of a white, uh, a white stock and on roasted

[51:25] stock, and then also, uh, get some of the brown stuff, just mix the 2 together.

[51:30] In general, if it is a bolstering effect you want,

[51:34] uh, then I would use uh, roasted. If it's a kind of meaty palette that you want to draw over and you don't want the extra notes of the roast,

[51:43] well then hell, don't roast it. Uh, that's uh, that's your choice. Um, so anyway, I think you can do both. especially here's one for you. If you want to do Remy. So what you do is you do an initial roasted stock in a pressure cooker quick and then do, not a Remy, sorry, a 2nd stock, then you could redo the stock with fresh

[52:04] meat, like you would for a classic kind of consomme thing, only with more meat than you would for a classic consomme, and then get the freshness of that meat out of it. That might be a good way to get the boast of both best of both worlds. All right, listen, they're going to kick me off the air, but on my way out, We got some good stuff coming up on the steers off, you tuning into the Kickstarter. We're going to put some stretch goals in. I think we're going to give some extra screens as a stretch goal. Maybe we're talking about trying to include one of the clamps. We going to see if we can make it work. We're going to be talking about for all you Iwatani lovers out there, which is a type of torch, whether or not we're going to be able to support the Iwatani in time for the Kickstarter to be over. Maybe some European torches. One more thing. I need your help. Tweet me in. I'm looking for a source for anyone who's from South America. Kamu Kamu, which is a delicious fruit that unfortunately also has a lot of antioxidant

[52:49] power, so everyone sells it as powdered kamu Kamu, which is gross. I need kamu kamu puree here in the US. If anyone has a source. Let me know at cooking issues. Kamukama puree has to be red, has to be delicious, has to be puree cooking issues.

[53:10] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website, or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.

[53:43] Thanks for listening.