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[1:01] Hello, Happy New Year and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. You just coming to you live, my brother's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly one, right? One o'clock. On the Tuesdays, join as usual. With Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, I do. Good, how are you? I'm doing all right. We got Jack. Oh, sorry. Oh, we do have we have no Jack. Jack hates us. We have Joe in the booth today. I got you confused because you have a new haircut, Joe. Yeah, actually, I've been called Jack several times now because I have short hair. Really? Yeah, a couple times. You know, I shouldn't say this, but since Jack's not here and I know I know he's not listening to the program, because he's totally sick of us, every time Nastasia sees someone with

[1:43] the roughly jack facial hair and like that kind of like, he has like a... Yeah, like a beanie ski cap kind of a thing with

[1:51] Jake. Whenever she sees that look, which is becoming ever more common. He's like, yo, is that Jack? I'm like, I'm like, you're so you're so racist against and he's a Manhattan guy now. So you can't be, you can't call him the Brooklyn, the kind of the Brooklyn cool hipster look anymore because like he's now from

[2:08] Manhattan. And since I feel like he's like, you know, like Jack is the model for all that look, like, you know, once he switches to Manhattan,

[2:17] like it's over. Now it's Manhattan look. Yeah, soon, everyone in Manhattan is going to be dressing like Jack. Scraggly little beard and everything. Whoa, scraggly. No, I mean, I don't mean that in a bad way. It really works for him. It really does. Yeah. All right. So, call into questions two, 718-4972-1289-718-4972128. No, Joe, come on, man. I'm gonna get fired. Jack's listening. That's my, that's actually your next band. Like when you do a side project, you should be called scraggly in a good way. Maybe that's the album. Jack's listening. The album's scragging. It's actually here, right? Like, Jack's not listening. Yeah, exactly. I'm hoping Jack calls in from the office. This would just be great. Wow. So what happened? We haven't been back in a long time because we hit on Christmas and then we hit on the New Year's. So what's been going on, Stas? How is that worry in California? California for Christmas, Connecticut for New Year's. Yeah, how was that? It was okay. Yeah. It's okay. How was yours? Good. You know, I made, oh, we haven't spoken. Have you spoken to people since this year's whole thing is done or no? Uh, no, no. No, yeah, well, our series all thing is over. For those of you that, I don't know, don't, you know, 1st time listening to something. We made a product called the Sears All, and Nastasia hates this. I'm going to make her do it. Estas, do you? Does it sear? Does it sear only some things? Most things? Everything? All? Sears all? Sears all. Anyway, so we had a Kickstarter for this, and we sold like something on the order of like 2800 of them. Uh, and it was actually uh, the 8th, we looked this up yesterday, the 8th largest food Kickstarter of all times.

[3:55] Food Kickstarter. Jack would have been hit the applause button. Yeah, yeah. All right, all right. Damn, no game, no game. And, uh, yeah, so we did we did well. And, you know, I'm especially proud of what we raise considering that the individual donations, it only costs like $65 to do it.

[4:15] So, for those of you that missed it, Nastasia has set up an online shop where you can buy it. So, shop starter, some, I guess. We'll announce it in a couple days. All right, whatever. So it didn't happen. I would just made that crap. It's ready to go. Yeah, all right, whatever. So anyway, so here's the thing. So I did the prime rib for the for the Christmas. My mom, right? I've said this before. I love my mom. Mom's a great cook. My mom is the reason why, you know, I cook. Duh. everyone's mom is the reason why they exist. She's also the reason kind of, you know, why I think I like to cook so much. But her kitchen is extremely poorly outfitted. Like, so, I mean, and this is going to sound like I'm a complete, like, jackwad. She has no low temperature cooking, which is not part of the poor outfitting. Stas is giving me the your jerk look. Uh, but, like, she shouldn't have a low temperature thing. So anyway, so I brought my low temperature rig, which is a half-leck sand. I brought, oh, by the way, we got the Nomiku in on the break. I haven't gotten a chance to use it yet. Anyway, so we got the low temperature rig. I cooked some deer the other day, low temperature. I don't have a New Year's resolution and not be on tangent. We'll talk about deer in a minute. Anyway, so I, uh, so I did the the prime rib. My mom bought the entire freaking prime rib, which was so big. It wouldn't fit in a half Lexan. So I had to, and, you know, the butcher did that thing where they cut the bones off, then they rolled the individual prime. They rolled a prime rib and then re-tie it to the bones. know what I'm talking about? Whatever. Old school technique. So, uh, anyhoo, I pulled, I I took, I disassembled the butcher's work, cut the bone into 3 plates, cut 2 of the rib sections off of the prime rib, bagged them separately, bagged the whole thing, and one of those, you know those ziplocs that are intended for, not food gray, please, no calls

[5:56] on this. You know, the ones that are meant to like roll up comforters and stuff for like camping. That's the only thing she had big enough to hold this giant prime rib. And I wanted to present it basically hole. So I did the whole sucker at 55 for like 5 hours,

[6:10] 5 or 6 hours, then dropped it, then cooled it off, cooled it off, then threw it in a 500 degree oven to overcook the outside a little bit and give it

[6:18] that, and then finished off with dual sears all. The stars, I put that, I put that picture off. You you... It'll be up on the site where you can buy sears all. The dual sears all, like, got to go, you know, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah, big, big dumb. Oh, I also did some low temperature deer. Not the one Lucas said because that one is at the at the headquarters there. But, uh... Do you know what cut he gave us? Do you remember? I think. So I, yeah, I did loin, which is tough, but I did it low temp, worked, worked great. So like these 2 friends of Dax's girlfriend were, you know, were over. He's eight. Anyway, so they were over and the cousins. So this 12-year-old, it's her and her sister they're eating. And we thought that dad had shot the deer. They brought it from Illinois. They're from southern Illinois, like near the border down there. And, uh, so like halfway through the meal, like, so, you know, uh, so who shot this deer? She's like, I did. I was like, whoa! Like, this, like, like, 13 year old, like, you know, girl shot this deer. I was like, that's awesome. I was like, how, you know, what size was it? 6 pointer. I was like, whoa. I love that. Love that. Anyway, we ought to get on some questions. We never going to finish this stuff in time. Although I have to say, I don't know what made me think of this because Stas, you were over yesterday because it was cold and you didn't want to open the gate to the lab by yourself.

[7:38] So you're over at my house because I live near where I work. Thank God. I hate commutes. I hate them. Anyway. Me too. Yeah, the commute. Well, hey look, your choice. Nastasi used to live down near where we worked. And she was like, I hate it down here. I'm moving back to Hell's Kitchen. So 2 words, your choice. Your choice. Your choice. Anyhoo, so I moved apartments, and I'm going to talk later about it because someone asked about a kitchen. But I moved and I used to have black floors and I have black lab, dog. So I didn't think the dog shed so much. I'm moving to a place with gray floors. I was like, oh my god, we're dark shit so much. And so I bought a robotic vacuum cleaner. And the Roomba, the new one, which is pretty sweet. And like, here's the thing, right? Everyone's like, oh, maybe that's ridiculous, whatever. I love this damn thing. I love this robotic faction. It's a little loud. No, it's much less loud than a normal vacuum for you. And you have to run it longer. Well, but yeah, but you can program it to run when you're not there. Anyhoo, it runs around the house and it plugs itself back in when it's done and so it gets rid of all the dog hair and I love it. And I was thinking, you know what? What reminded me of it. And the reason I'm bringing it up today is that, you know how we always get these questions about,

[8:41] and whatever, because we do, we do technology and food, right? What about 3D printing food? What's the future of food? Future this, future of that, right? You know what I'm saying? Right? Stas is like, hey, future this. Come on. That stars is doing the point, the jersey point. But the, uh, oh, so she said, um, you know, it's like, everyone always asks these questions and, you know, what they fundamentally don't get is even though we use a lot of new techniques and technologies, like, you know, we like cooking,

[9:10] right? You know, we like human beings that make food that they think is delicious, that they are proud to serve to either their

[9:19] customers, or their guests, or they're proud to make that they've created something. It's a product that comes from themselves. And that's, you know, why good cooks like to cook, right? I mean, that's that's really the impetus is that you can make something that's high quality. You get to do it every day. You can constantly hone your skills and it gives a little bit of yourself to someone else, right? Isn't that why we like to do it? So obviously, you don't want a robot making your freaking food. Like, whatever, fast food. Yes, yes, whatever, fine industrial food. Yes, great. Yes we all love Twinkies. But, like, what I'm saying, you don't want a robot making your food on a daily basis. I was thinking, but, like, the vacuum robot is perfect, and here's the crux of it. And this is why I don't want my food 3D printed regularly. I mean, there are applications, right? But the vacuum cleaner is a good idea. No one says this. That thing does vacuuming just like my mom used to do. I can only find someone that can vacuum in the same way that my mom used to vacuum.

[10:17] Then life would be great. You know what I'm saying? It's a frequent vacuum. Nobody cares. They just wanted to run. They wanted to get underneath the damn, you know what I mean? Anyways, not a clapping day. Yeah, not for our stellar Kickstarter. Christian from Denmark writes in on vacuum reduction. Hello, Nastasia. Hope this is the right place to send questions for cooking issues. It was, because here it is. If so, tell the whole crew from yet another fan from Denmark, we are another friend from Denmark. We are Legion by Danish standards anyway. You've never been to Denmark. I was supposed to go to Denmark to Odens, like home of the home of the

[10:55] marzipan, which, by the way, marzipan, delicious. Delicious. Do you like Marzipan? I don't really like it. Why? I don't like almond paste. Color. What? All right, we'll get back to this question today. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, my name is Johnny. from Madison. How you doing? Wisconsin? Yeah, what about Madison is there? Cold there. Oh, yeah, how cold is it right now? It's only like 14 below right now. It was 23 yesterday though. See, here's what I love, right? Like here in New York, we're like griping about this, like, you know, whatever it is, like 5 Fahrenheit or whatever, and you guys would be laughing at us like fake

[11:28] northern people as like a real northern person. If you weren't getting slammed so hard right now yourself, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I definitely, uh, there's not much else to concentrate on. Do you have good winter gear? I was once in Sweden, and although I was wrecked, I was above the Arctic Circle. The dog sled lady who was running the musher, she said, there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad coats. I was like, hmm, very Zen. I do, I think there is, like, once you've lived there for a while, there's definitely that opinion. Like, you just, like, don't complain, just get a better setup. Yeah, nice. All right. So what are you cooking today up there? Well, I, I, you, you actually interacted on Twitter because I sent you a picture to the broken centrifuge. Oh, that's you. holy crap. How much did, so for those of you that obviously, like, I had this Twitter account at cooking issues, if you want to go to it, and I got a question in, like, you know, like, well, not really a question, more of just like a photo. I bought a centrifuge, and the buckets broke, and the inside of the thing got host. I wanted to know what the damage was. So give us a little bit of background on what's going on here. So, um, there was a 2nd photo that I sent you. had the, the, the, the inside of the centrifuge, but uh, yeah, so basically,

[12:41] got a centrifuge through the university. pretty cheap. Uh, kind of checked out. It was a Beckman one, a little bit older, and it had a glass. Had a glass cover, which was awesome because you could see inside. Also terrifying. But, uh, anyway, so, I, uh, I got, actually, I ordered a new rotor, uh, that I, that I was

[13:07] using the, the old buckets. Right. And, uh, the, the bucket broke and

[13:12] it flew into the, I mean, stopped the centrifuge right away. I bet. I've never, were you in the room when it happened? I wasn't, but there was someone else in there and he said it scared the living crap out of him. I bet like how loud was it? Did they say? Yeah, they said the dishwasher was like 30 feet

[13:33] away and he said he felt a move. Wow. And it moved, it moved 3 feet. Wow. Wow. And it was it was doing about 4000 RPM,

[13:44] so. Yeah, so okay, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, little background. So we're dealing with, we're dealing with benchtop,

[13:51] desktop centerfuge, I think like some, that with the Beckman Coulter with the, with the Plexi top is somewhere in the, somewhere in the 3 liter range, right? It holds roughly 3 liters. Yep, 3 liters. Swinging bucket centrifuge. And I've never dealt with a rotor failure, uh, or even really seen pictures of rotor failures on the swinging buckets, but my point of contention has always been that these units, even when they fail, are much safer than the larger, faster

[14:18] ones, because the G forces involved are comparatively low. So it's this very interesting for me to hear. Now, the buckets that, actually, interestingly, your buckets were not aluminum, right? Doesn't the Beckman Coulter has stainless steel press buckets or no? Yeah, these ones were staining still. I actually have aluminum as well. Right. So, I mean, aluminum buckets. Aluminum when you're in, so a centrifuge, again, for those of you, they spin and they separate things based on density. However, usually the, in a swinging bucket rotor, the buckets, they swing and they're buckets, hence swinging bucket rotor. And this is what we use mostly in the kitchen because they have a much larger capacity for their

[14:54] size than what's called a fixed angle rotor, which normally uses tubes or bottles. And, um, the problem is most buckets are made out of

[15:02] aluminum, and aluminum, uh, tends to fatigue over time with flex, and so you get

[15:08] cracks, and then they can catastrophically fail. And when they do, so think of this. If you have a swinging bucket rotor, each rotor has its own, each bucket has its own weight plus an extra, you know, 750 grams of product in it, that's 750

[15:23] grams, if you're doing 4000 Gs, it has the equivalent weight of like 3000 kilos or something like this.

[15:31] So it's it's no jokes. So when that thing flies off, it's it's really no joke. Very surprised that the Beckman Coulter's stainless steel buckets broke because they don't typically show fatigue

[15:43] failures the way aluminum does. What was the failure mode of the bucket, do you know? I, uh, I can't, it's like 78,000. I, I'd have to look at it, but I, I remember just taking a peek at it. No, but what, what, how did the bucket actually break? Like, what part of it broke? Oh, at the top, right? I mean exactly where you would think it is. It's kind of like at the point where you latch it onto the rotor. Right. So yeah, so in a normal, in a normal aluminum bucket, it's, it's probably machine, right? And then there's these 2 like big things where these pins, these fat pins from the rotor fit

[16:19] in and the buckets slip onto them. And in the stainless one, it looks like it's made out of sheet metal, right? I've never used the stainless ones. I'm frankly, is it possible that those the stainless ones are meant to only work with inserts and that they kind of flexed in under the force and popped

[16:35] out? I mean, that can be the only thing I could think of. Did it actually tear at the pin or did it flex and pop out at the pin? I have no idea. It's probably too many, yeah. Yeah, literally, like, it broke off. I'll send you another photo. Yeah, get a close-up. I'd like to see a close-up of where you think the failure started, so I can figure. anyway, so onto your question. Enough of peppering you with questions. What's your question? Well, okay, so I had a bunch of questions. I mean, we started using it and it's been pretty useful and I figured out quite a bit. But yeah, I was, one of the questions was, you know, what we talked about right now is like, do different

[17:10] buckets need to use the inserts, you know? So, maybe we don't know. Yeah, I mean, I've never used this. The one of the reasons I stayed away from the Beckman Coulters specifically is that the insides of their buckets are square.

[17:25] Right? No, these are round. Are they round insides? Okay, so some of them have the square buckets and I don't like square, I don't like square buckets without inserts. The reason being that if you were to, if you were to take a attack, a strobe tack, which you can buy, I've done it with mine, which is a terrible idea, and you, but you put

[17:45] a, uh, because I don't have a glass top on mine. Uh, and you, um, put a, in fact, I think someone,

[17:52] but Coulter, Beckman Coulter, somewhat and makes one that's meant to do this, and you just fire a strobe tack at it. You can get it to fire correctly either by tuning it by hand with a strobe tack or by putting a little reflective piece of tape on to trigger the tack.

[18:06] And, um, with an external signal. You can freeze it. When you freeze it, you'll see that as the thing is spinning, the liquids inside are rotating and scouring on the inside of the bucket.

[18:17] So my feeling has always been that in a square bucket where you have those side seams, that as it slows down, rather than settling any like kind of less well formed parts of the puck at the bottom of the of the

[18:30] thing are going to are going to get refluffed up to the top. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I've always thought round bottoms were good. But anyway, so go ahead. Yeah. Um, but mostly what I, questions were, is just about using clarifying components, like,

[18:44] obviously the pecking X is pretty useful, but do you find that if stuff fits for a day, that it

[18:49] goes cloudy again or stuff like that? I saw like I did banana juice and onion juice in it. They both got cloudy. Right. So here's what happens. So you use the pet and X, and typically, especially on onion juice, I've noticed this, you like, we'll do like a double spin on it, because it doesn't knock out. The Pecknex doesn't get rid, and I don't even know, frankly, whether it's all pectin or there's other kind of suspended hydrocoloids there. But what you'll do is you'll do an initial clarification run and the sucker will look clear. The same thing happens, by the way, when you do quick Agar clarification and things like this. So it looks pretty clear, and then you let it sit in the fridge, and then all of a sudden it kind of gets these wispy

[19:28] things, and sometimes it even goes full cloudy, or sometimes you get a precipitator settled out. And what's happening is, is that over time, uh, you know, the, these things that are, are soluble are in

[19:39] solution, and therefore not making it cloudy, will agglomerate together, uh, coalesce and then become large enough to partially drop out a solution and make it cloudy

[19:49] again. So the solution there is just to, uh, or the answer, I should say, is to, uh, re-spin. And we do I do that a lot. And what I don't know, because I've never done a lot of testing on it because I just haven't had the time to really sit out and do it,

[20:06] is it's like, okay, if you do the onion juice and you just let it sit for 2 days before you do your 1st spin, would you still need to do a 2nd spin?

[20:13] I don't know. You know, I don't know whether or not like removing all of that massive stuff is what allows these other things to that, or that other pectants, whatever, to,

[20:22] uh, agglomerate together or whether or not you would get a better or a simpler result, if you just let it sit for a couple days before you spun it out. I don't know. But it's a fairly common phenomenon to get some flock out and have to do a respin. Okay, so if I resend it, I'm not going to see the cloudy again. No, you're done. Yeah. And so I noticed that you do it for about 15 minutes normally on a lot of stuff. Is, is there a benefit to do it longer or shorter or? Well, I mean, the longer you go. So again, when you turn on, if you were to, if you were to get a strobe tack, which I would, if I were you, by the way, if I'm talking about

[20:55] guys is a, it's a strobe light that's, that you can adjust how the rate of

[21:00] firing and it allows you to freeze things like centrifuge buckets, like visually freeze

[21:04] them so you can see what's going on. And if you were to, if you fire up the centrifuge and you look at it with a strobe, you, uh, what you see is, is that the juice clarifies very, very quickly. And then, um, once it's settling out. Now, there are some things that take a long time to clarify out and you have to spin for a long, long time. But in general, most of the products that we use are clarifying relatively quickly. But what you need to do is run it long enough to compress the puck so that it doesn't resuspend as it starts coming

[21:37] back as the speed starts slowing back down. So, you know, a lot of times I'm doing, um, you know, for events, we're doing a lot of product, and so I try to get my spin times down as as low as possible without compromising quality. And so usually 15 is good enough. And so I don't try to go longer. Sometimes if I'm really in a bind, I'll, I'll, you know, I'll cut it to 10, anything below 10 and I have a lot of times I'll have a lot of resuspension problems. I mean, some things are easier than others. Bananas drop like a rock. You know what I mean? Like once you hit them with Pectinex, banana pulp just like slams to the bottom of your of your thing and it's, you know, not a

[22:13] problem, whereas other things, you know, they take a little more spinning. Like tomato usually throws a flock. And, you know, if you want to also reduce your problems with that deeration before you spin, makes it settle a lot faster because you don't have as many problems with air bubbles having to pop before it goes down.

[22:26] Surprising fact, you know, 4000 G is not enough to pop kind of the micro air bubbles. And that's why a lot of times you'll get, especially on something like tomatoes where you're blending it in a blender and it traps so much pulp,

[22:38] you'll get a mat on the top. And I don't think that mat is caused by things that are inherently less dense, like oil. I'm pretty sure that that mat is just a trapped air mat. Do you cook the bananas 1st or do you have to do? No cook. No cook, but you have to make sure to use ripe bananas because raw bananas contain starch and the starch will not settle out on a centrifuge to get in our centrifuges anyway. Like to get it to settle out, you need to, you know, you just wait a long, long time, the starch will eventually settle out, or you

[23:08] could probably eat the starch with enamelase. But the issue is, I'm not sure whether the amylate starch can withstand the alcohol environment that we do in a typical kind of

[23:17] banana hostino situation. You know what I mean? Yeah, we, uh, I pressure cooked them 1st with some baking soda and like caramelized them and it turned out really good.

[23:27] I was that was my favorite. Nice, nice. Um, and then just, I, I, I, I picked up 2 centrifuges. Because, you might contact the university had it. But the other one is uh pretty is not as quite as fast as about 2000 Gs. Right. Is there much I can do with that or? You're gonna have to probably, is it fixed angle or swinging bucket? Ah, a big angle. Okay, so the good news for you is that fixed angle, fixed angle rotors tend to get a better level of clarification at lower

[24:01] G forces than a swinging bucket does. So you can get good results with a fixed angle running at 2000 Gs. You kind of probably have to spin a little longer and obviously, you know, you probably don't have the same capacity in it. But if you look at a fixed angle rotor. Fixed angle rotor is holding the tubes at a relatively steep angle.

[24:23] And what that means is, is that the average particle that you need to clarify out of solution needs to only travel a very short distance before it hits the side of the

[24:33] tube. And then it's scoured down towards the bottom where it pellets and forms a puck, but they have very strong pelleting capabilities, which means that you can do the kind of work that we're doing at relatively lower speeds and still get good results.

[24:48] So I'd say it should work for a lot of the recipes, not all of them. Um, and then I know to use the wine clarifying. Um, chemicals as well? Is that helpful or is it, I mean, obviously helpful, but how helpful? Oh incredibly helpful. Like, so, you know, when I'm doing lime juice or grapefruit juice. I usually use it on citrus products, um, you know, it, uh,

[25:14] this stuff almost auto clarifies. If you let lime juice sit around and you do the kiesel saw and kaeda sand, which are the 2 wine finding agents I use in conjunction with SPL, it'll settle just like apple

[25:26] juice will. And the only reason I centrifuge it is to increase my yield. I mean, I'd probably only get a without a centrifuge, only, and someone asked me this question later, and I'm going to get to it, hopefully, but you only get a yield of about 50%. Whereas, you know, with a centrifuge, I get something like 98% yield off of lime juice. Very good. All right. Well, I think the thing I'm glad that it broke in some ways because now I know like a worst case scenario.

[25:51] That is the worst. You have experienced the worst case scenario. It's all uphill from here, my friend. But great. All right. thanks so much. All right, thank you. Stay warm. All right. So back to Christian Hall from Denmark. Thanks so much for your hugely inspirational radio show and blog. very nice. We like to hear comments, right, stars. I have university background and philosophy and literature. Well, I have philosophy. You have literature. Yeah. Me, aren't we fiction? Because I'm a jerk. I miss fiction. I'm gonna start reading it again. Yeah? You know, my wife, who is editing, edited my, uh, you know, well, I have an editor, Maria

[26:27] Guaracelli, but who, like, my wife is, like, you know, red, and is the reason why I'm considered a writer because my wife reads all this stuff. She goes, Dave, you need to read fiction so that you're writing this and stuff. Yeah, that's what she said. My wife's so hardcore. Anyway, philosophy of literature, learning about an analytical approach to cooking that's at the center of the modernist movement, viewing a dish as a series of problems to be understood and solved, was what convinced me there might be a point

[26:50] of putting my 30-year-old self through cooking school, and today, 4 years later, I'm running my own catering company. We've got versions of your gel and ice cream on the menu at least once a week and are running our centrifuge based on your recommendations every day. Nice. I like that. And you know, oh, like I said before, I've never been to Denmark someday. Actually, it's not true. I flew into Denmark to go to Sweden, but it doesn't count. It's like saying I was in blah, blah. I was in the airport. No, you weren't there. All right. Here are my questions. For a while now, I've been experimenting with vacuum reductions using the aspirator slash during hot plate

[27:20] method outline and modernist cuisine, but I'm finding that running the aspirator is too much of a hassle for us to really start making proper use of it.

[27:26] Could I switch to a diaphragm pump instead? And if so, what would some of the advantages disadvantages be? I've also been toying with the idea of adding a cold finger? Cold finger? I love that word cold finger, don't you? Cold finger. Cold finger, condenser, and receiving flask in between the boiling flask and the pump to try out distillations.

[27:44] Would this work even remotely well, or should I just hold off until we can afford a proper

[27:48] roto app, a.k.a. rotary evaporator? Keep up the great work. Looking forward to getting my Sears all. Thanks, Christian Hall. Okay. So for those of you that have no idea what we're just talking about, here's the thing. So when you want to do reductions of things, let's just say port wine, because everyone wants to reduce port wine, right? Don't you like a port wine reduction? Yeah, yeah, shut. Uh, she, uh, so the problem doing normal reductions is obviously they happen at high temperature. So by putting something under a vacuum, like in a rotary evaporator, a vacuum still, you can do reductions at low

[28:22] temperatures. So you get very, very fresh punchy flavors that haven't been altered by high, high heat. Now, the average bartender. So in a rotary evaporator, that's one of the things you can do. So the average bartender cares mostly about the distillate, right? And so this aspirator thing that we're talking about, which I'll explain in a 2nd, doesn't really help with that. But the average cook cares mostly about the reductions. What's in the reduction flask. And so for that is the aspirator. So Chris Young and Nathan Mirvold, you know, and Maxine, when they were writing the monitors cuisine, one of the things they said, hey, look, it's not just for rich people, is they bought an aspirator. An aspirator is uses a kind of like a Ventura effect. You blow water. It doesn't have to be water. actually, it could be anything else, but they use water out of a faucet. Uh, as it goes through, uh, that entrains air and blasts it down and it creates a vacuum. And this is how, you know, in high school, you used to make a, well, at least me, I did, because I didn't do it in college. you know, this is how you'd make a vacuum in the lab, you'd have these water aspirators and you'd run, they'd run water into the sink. And now that, and they'd work. Now the advantage of this kind of a punt. And so then what he did is he hooked this up to an Erland Meyer flask, which is a square, you know, flat bottomed flask, uh, with a neck, the neck went to the aspirator pump. Uh, and then, uh, you know, you have your product in there, you have a stir plate to keep it stirred, so it doesn't bubble over, and you heat it a little

[29:41] bit because if you don't heat it at all, it'll just get colder and colder as stuff evaporates, it's

[29:46] evaporated cooling. So you have to heat it even if you're doing room temperature distillation, and you suck the vacuum, and there you go. You get your reductions at low temperature. Now, theoretically, this is gonna work. However, aspirators, have 2 fundamental problems. 1st problem. They don't suck a very good vacuum, period, because the amount of vacuum you can suck is dependent upon the vapor pressure of

[30:07] water at whatever temperature you're using. So, uh, if you're heating your product up, right, uh, you know, up to a reasonable level, then you have a good deal of difference between the boiling point of your product and the current vapor pressure of water at your cold water

[30:22] tip. One of the ways to solve that is to recirculate the water in the aspirator and put ice into it. This lowers the vapor pressure of the water and allows you to get higher vacuums. The other disadvantage of aspirators is they have abysmal, abysmal pump rates. So you can, you know, pump very little actual volume of

[30:41] air, regardless of how good your, um, your, you know,

[30:46] the the ultimate vacuum you can attain is. Now, one way to get around this is to gang multiple aspirators together, like, and, you know,

[30:51] I've said this many times, but, you know, you know, I don't know, 10 years ago when I was 1st looking

[30:55] into or whatever, 8 years, whatever it is, looking into doing vacuum distillation, I turn to whoever, you know, the people who, uh, you know, need vacuum distillation and can't go to normal channels and don't have money, meth

[31:08] producers. And so meth producers online, they used to, I don't know, where they still haven't had a bunch of websites on how to basically, you know, set up meth labs at home. And one of the things they're concerned with is vacuum, vacuum distillation. And so they would take what's called a float. They would go to Home Depot, they would buy a flowjet garden pump, which is like, you know, like to pump water and they would pump it through multiple ganged aspirators hooked up to PVC piping.

[31:32] And I tried it, and it I wasn't making meth, was not making meth. Uh, and uh, but they, you know, it worked okay, but still, it chokes up. It's not the best thing for it for doing a vacuum reduction. So I really, you know, if you're going to be doing a lot of it, I think you can play around with the aspirator, but Matt. Now, if you're going to switch to a diaphragm pump, diaphragm, so the 2 main pumps, once you throw the aspirator out, the 2 main pumps that you're going to be dealing with are either a rotary

[31:59] vein pump oil pump. And the only really affordable ones you can get are the styles for refrigeration. So, Robin Air, uh, you know, yellow jacket, um, things like this, JB. These are refrigeration pumps, and they make a boatload of them because every refrigeration tech in the

[32:14] country, probably in the world. I sure it's done the same way everywhere. They take this refrigeration pumps and they pump the old refrigerant out of your of your

[32:23] refrigerator and they have to suck like an amazing vacuum to completely dry down and get all the contaminants out of your refrigeration system before they recharge it.

[32:30] So there's a lot of them out there and they're relatively inexpensive. And they have a relatively high pump rate and they have a relatively good ultimate vacuum down in the, you know, like, you know,

[32:42] couple of millibars you can get down to, which is pretty damn good. more than you need. They also have a fairly decent toleration of entrained moisture. Now, your problem. Now, if you go to diaphragm pumps, they don't get nearly as good a vacuum. They're a lot more expensive, but they don't volatilize or put oil or smells into your kitchen and they're a lot cleaner

[33:09] than, and they're a lot quieter than the rotary vein pumps. So that's the kind of the trade-offs. Neither one of them is designed to handle large quantities of vapor. That's the only advantage of the aspirator is that the aspirator can handle as much vapor as it can pump

[33:26] out. It can handle because it's not getting contaminated by the vapor. It's just shooting the vapor out into whatever your your, you know, whatever the trough is that you're putting it into. So in order to use either a diaphragm pump or a rotary vein pump, you will need a cold trap of some sort. So in order to do this at all, this is a long answer to your question, you're going to need the

[33:47] cold finger to condense your product back because the secret of distillation, which is what you're doing, whether or not you think of it as reduction or not, what you're actually doing in a closed system, which is what you're going to need to do to get your vacuum to not choke on you, is to do actual distillation, and you need to supply as much cooling

[34:05] power, to recondense your vapor as you supplied to, um, to boil it off in the 1st place. And there are pumps, you know, like BOC Edwards makes a dry vein pump that I'm here can handle large amounts of vapor, but you're talking like three, four, three,

[34:21] 4000, you know, bucks. Uh, So is it worth trying to do distillations that way before you get a roto app? Let me put it this way. Uh, I did it. I got products I thought tasted good, but all it did was wet my appetite to buy a

[34:38] Rotav app, which I eventually did. And so I think it's kind of, uh, uh, you know, it's worth doing as a

[34:46] gateway, and as soon as you start playing around with it, you're going to say to yourself, damn, I need to go

[34:50] by myself a roto app, and you probably will. Let me know. Anyway, what do you think, Stas? Is that a reasonable answer? that answer the question? Yeah. All right, let's go to a commercial break on cooking issues.

[37:20] I've been watching, watching.

[37:33] The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory

[37:44] smoke to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire

[37:58] Port. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marble and contribute to a flavor that's a

[38:03] delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit edwardsvam.com. Wow. Wow. The harmonica with the ham. new, right? The harmonica music behind the ham. It's a match made in heaven. Yeah, I think we've been using that one a little bit, but maybe it's a new mix.

[38:24] Jack had to make a new ad, so maybe the harmonica stands out a little bit more. Yeah, well, yeah, I'm just not, you know, I had never associated Sam Edwards's hams with Harmonica, but I guess now

[38:35] I will. Yeah, all right. Well, yeah, we like we like their we like their product. Maybe they make an excellent product. But you have to eat it to enjoy it. Am I right? Oh, hey, call her. We have a color, color you're on the air. Hey, Dave, Sasha, Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Um, I have a question about Koji, and um, I bought some of the cold mountain coaching, and I used it to um, make my own, uh, Shio

[39:02] Koji, and to make Amazaki successfully, and um, now I want to experiment and get into making some miso and and and some other

[39:11] things. But instead of, you know, buying the tubs of the, of the cold mountain or one from online, what I want to do is make my own, um, uh, you know, coji

[39:21] sports. So if I let the rice, um, go to

[39:25] Spore. I was reading that there might be some risk of creating

[39:30] some, um, some toxins, if it goes too far. So, I'm wondering if you have any advice on, on, on doing this at home, and uh, how to, how to get a good results. So, then I can culture all kinds of things that aren't, aren't, uh, aren't just rife.

[39:45] Right. Okay, so 1st of all, how was the Yamazaki? was it good? Oh, it was delicious. Really sweet. take it, but it actually makes a great ice cream. Really? Yeah, yeah. It's already thick and and, and, uh, just just blended up and, uh, in the blender and stick it in the freezer. It's got great texture. That's a really amazing idea. I don't know why I never thought of that. a good idea. I might try that I should do it, yeah. We should. It's a good idea. So not today. Although you can just walk outside with it right now. Just like turn on the blender and make it. Just kidding. So for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, Koji, is fundamentally, you have an aspergillis, I forget which

[40:27] aspergillis. an aspergillis mold that's grown on things like rice. And you use that to, instead of a malting thing as a base to break down carbohydrates for then further fermentation,

[40:39] right? And so you start with a Koji base for things like sake for Amazake for or for things like misos or other fermented things like

[40:51] this. And it's, uh, the problem being, and this is, you know, the question here is there are

[40:56] aspergillous strains that are that do produce toxins. I, unfortunately, you know, the real guys to ask on this are the Mamafuku,

[41:07] the Mamafuku lab guys, because they, you know, they're the ones doing all of their own kind of misos, and they do all their own Koji work and all their own sporulation. If you were to take a something that you had that was already

[41:21] inoculated and then just keep that one and keep reinoculating based on that, I would think your odds of contamination

[41:27] with something that's nasty is pretty low. But I don't have enough experience for me to, um, go out on on a limb. And so, you know, like having me say something, I would just be respouting stuff from Shirt

[41:43] Leafs, Miso book, and from Sandra Katz's fermentation book. So I, you know, I hesitate to give you my own kind of advice on it, you

[41:51] know? Okay, um, all right. Uh, I guess I'll I'll have a. I'll send an email to the Mofuku lab guys and um, if I get a response. Yeah, like right over there. I, you know, I, I, I can ask. you know, when I see him, you know, fundamentally, you just want to know like how to, how to tell something bad has happened. Well, I want to make my own, you know, what they call coaching kin, right? Right. Which is the, it's the spores themselves. So then you can sprinkle that stuff on, on pretty much anything and then, you know, go to town and experiment. Um, you can order some spores online, but then you know, you have a finite amount. Right? Or you can take, or I can buy, you know, like the cold mountain, um, Koji, which is already rice, grow it, and then harvest

[42:38] off the, um, some of the, uh, some of the spores from, from that. Uh, you know, so that's, that's really, That's really the question. Yeah, I mean, I don't know that they do it. So you so in other words, you want something that you can like do once, then save as a drive form for a long time and then do again and like be guaranteed of good

[42:58] results. Exactly. Yeah. I'll look into it. And, and, and I'll, uh, because your feeling is if you just save

[43:05] some, and just kind of dehy it, grind it up, and then powder that back in that you won't necessarily have the efficacy that you need. That's, that's the, that, that's the worry or, you know, or will that work, I guess, is the question. I mean, I think that probably will be propagated. I mean, I probably, yeah, all right. Look, this is something I should know and I'm embarrassed for not knowing off the top of my head. So I'll look into it. And Stas, write an email to yourself so that we have it for next week. And next week, I'll get the answer for you because if I don't, I'm not able to answer it. I'll just ask the Momo lab guys myself and we'll we'll get to the bottom of it for you for next week. Thank you kindly. All righty. Talk to you soon. All right. Stay warm. All right, bye. All right. So, uh, Joe from Chicago writes in about kitchen design. Hey, Dave, I'm cooking Ich's crew. I currently live in downtown Chicago. Also cold there. That has some cold over there. I currently live in downtown Chicago and have plans to move out of the city in the next year or

[44:03] two. In the meantime, I've been obsessing over designing the perfect kitchen. And given your recent move, I figured I'd ask you the following questions. What's most important to you when establishing yourself in a new kitchen space in terms of organization, placement of appliances, maximizing efficiency,

[44:19] et cetera. I would love to hear a rant on your approach to kitchen design, and how will your approach change if you weren't crammed into a tiny NYC space. All right, well, as to the 2nd section of that, how would my approach change, if I wasn't crammed into a tiny space, I would definitely, I would just have more freaking equipment.

[44:35] It's not even just the space. It's also my power limitations. I live in an apartment and, you know, I have relatively unlimited supplies of gas, but I have very limited supplies of electricity.

[44:47] Which means that, you know, my ovens have to fire on gas. I could only have a single group espresso machine, wow, pity me, mom. Douche. Uh, but the uh, I'm a douche. Big dish, big dish. So, you know, so for me in an apartment, space management is a key issue, power management, also an issue. Ventilation also an issue. Very hard to get good ventilation in a, uh, you know, in a New York City apartment because it's hard to compromise window space and you're not allowed to punch a whole lot of holes in your wall. Even regular home ventilation that most people get just

[45:23] sucks. It's just so bad. I mean, the thing that I would do, the 1st thing that I would invest in when you invest in a new kitchen is invest in proper ventilation and makeup air so that you can run your kitchen without smoking it.

[45:38] And when I say run it, I mean, beat it hard. You want to fire up all your burners. You want to be cooking something at a 1000000000 degrees in your oven if you want

[45:46] to, and, you know, grilling something, and you don't want to have the rest of your family run in there and be like, the house is full of smoke. It's full of smoke. It hurts my eyes. You know what I mean? This is not what you want to have happen. You want to be able to beat on your kitchen and have the smoke go away. And I've said this for a long time. I think in kitchens, like, I hope that in the next 10 years, one of the things people focus on more is air quality in

[46:11] the, in the kitchen in terms of ventilation is being a major problem to be dealt with in the average home kitchen.

[46:17] And I don't really know whether it's just because people don't cook enough at home

[46:21] anymore or what. But people aren't concerned enough about ventilation, except for when you're about to

[46:26] cook. And then everyone's concerned about, are you going to set out the smoke detectors? Are you going to shut off the smoke detectors? And so people actually cook in a crappy fashion at home because they haven't bothered. There are people that are out there who have like $5,6000 stoves, right? And they won't use them to their maximum capability because they're worried about setting off the freaking smoke detectors in their house because they haven't invested in proper ventilation to use their cooking equipment properly.

[46:54] right? Now, 2nd rant about cooking equipment is that I use exclusively professional ranges at

[47:03] home, even though I'm not supposed to. And I'll tell you why. Home ranges don't have the power. They, I looked at them, like the, the average like professional style, and you can see my hands making those dumb quote things, but like professional style home

[47:17] ranges. They cost a lot of money and the burners just don't have the oomph. They're just not powerful enough to do what I want them to do. Um, you know, so, you know, I prefer, and I don't always use it, but I prefer to have a burner in the, you know, I don't need it like

[47:37] mega. I don't need a 35 KBTU burner, but I like to have a burner that can, if you want to pump up

[47:44] to like in the, and I know when I say this many times, measuring something based on BTUs alone is dumb because it's a measure of how much energy it uses, not a measure of how much energy it puts into the

[47:53] pan. A good induction unit can beat a, you know, a 30,000 BTU burner any day. But that said, I'm mainly a gas person for the reasons I said earlier. And 30,000 in that range is where I kind of need to be to really get the power I

[48:08] want. But you want to choose a burner that throttles down appropriately and that has a flame pattern that can accommodate both large pans and small pans without

[48:18] too much difficulty. All right? If you're going to invest, I would invest also in, if you can get an electric oven, preferably convection, I would do that. I mean, so the ultimate in terms of, unless you're going to go full inductioning and go really nice and get used to it, which I've never done. You know, you're going to want gas range and electric of it with good ventilation, right?

[48:38] Back in the day, when I had space, when I lived in a loft and power, you know, was like 3 phase power because it was a sweatshop that used to be before I moved in there, I had a, I had a

[48:48] blodget commercial convection of it, and that thing was a cookie machine. That thing I could blast out cookies and, you know, non-heearth bread, bread styles,

[48:58] like, like nobody's business, 6 pan, uh, a 6 pan commercial, uh, convection oven, like the baking

[49:04] things, they're monsters. I definitely recommend one of those. Now, in terms of, I would get a commercial espresso machine, but that's me and a seltzer rig, which you asked about,

[49:13] and I'll talk about in a minute, I mean, that's kind of, you know, just stuff that I that I would want, like, once you have an espresso machine that's plumbed, you're never going to want to go back to something that's not

[49:20] plumbed. Another thing, foot pedals. Put foot pedals on your sink. Let me just say this again. Put foot petals on your sink. People don't really know how to install them, so you're going to have to learn to either get a plumber who's willing to work with you or learn to do a little bit of the plumbing yourself.

[49:34] TNS Brass sells a couple of ones that can have. I don't want only foot pedals. I want foot pedals and wrist action handles as well. Here's something that I want you to consider. Why would you ever want to touch the handle of a faucet when your hands are dirty in the kitchen? Let me repeat this. Why would you ever want to touch the handle of a faucet when your hands are dirty in the

[49:56] kitchen when you could just use a foot pedal? My rice does? Yeah, yeah. She said, I don't care. But foot pedals, everyone it's ever used in is like, everyone who's like, I talk to them out, they're like, that's ridiculous. Why do you need the foot pedals? And then, uh, when you, when they actually use it to like, why, why does everyone not have the foot pedals? Everyone loves the foot pedals. The only problem with the foot pedals is cleaning around them can be a difficulty. They make ones that are mounted high so you can clean under them easier, but I didn't have the capability to put that in. Another thing, unusual, but I think it's a nice thing to have, is if you can afford a

[50:25] 6 a standard kick is like 3.5 inches, like a 2 by 4 outside for things. If you can afford 6 inches and lift everything off the ground. Really nice to clean under. By the way, the Roomba can get underneath a 6 inch thing. So it cleans underneath all of my all of my stuff, which is

[50:40] nice in the kitchen to be able to clean all the way underneath everything. Another thing in the kitchen you're going to want to look out for is your movement. I unfortunately now have to be in a galley kitchen. Oh, and light. tons of light. If you can, uh, I used to, in my old place, my kitchen was, uh, you know, not was almost a part of my living room. And I had, I put strong lights with barn doors on them so that I could shield the light from going into the living room and spilling

[51:05] over. But a kitchen without light. It's just, it's just stupid. It's just dumb, right? In organization on it. I mean, the way I had it before, my old place, I liked a lot better because it wasn't linear right now. Like I said, I'm in a galley. So right now my oven is next to my sink. If you can arrange it so that 2 people can fit. If you can have like a good 4 feet, you know, clear space, have the long sink. I have a long sink with cutting boards that mount in my sink, so I can go directly into disposal with cuttings, which makes it nice for like, you know, speed. But then you can, you can cut and prep and wash and then turn around and be at your stove. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. Now, another thing on organization that I would say, here's my cardinal rule, and it got messed up over time. Uh, but now that I'm back in a new place, I'm able to like exert more control over it. Only, ever stack, like on, like, never stack, like on, dislike things. What do I mean by this? I detest nesting bowls where you have a little bowl in a slightly larger bowl, in a slightly larger bowl, in a slightly, and they're all made of heavy glass. And so I want that one in the middle. And I got to like get it and then I got to root around or you have baking pants. It's ridiculous. You don't need that many sizes of bowl. You really only need. I have, I mean, look, in my head. One, two, three. I have 4 size of stainless steel bowl. I have the thin, crappy ones that aren't presentation bowls, and I can stack 10 of them, and that only takes up like an extra inch and a half of room because they stack so closely together.

[52:35] I have a tiny one I use for tiny mise en plus and for things like olive pits. I have a slightly larger one, a little bit larger one, and a big one that I use for salad prep and things like this. And, and, and anytime someone puts one inside of the other, it's the wrong size, I lose my, I lose my freaking mind. You know what I mean? I have 2 different sizes of Pyrex measuring cups that I use, and they're stacked only like on like. I have Bay

[53:00] Marie's. I have 2 sizes, they stack, like on like, and here's another one for you when you're designing. consider putting in a speed rack. You know, a, you know, a tray, sheet tray pan, right? Because what do you, whenever you Why is it that when you make, I don't know what you celebrate, but why is it that when you make Christmas cookies or whatever, why is it your kitchen gets so hosed?

[53:19] It's because, or when you're making pizzas? It's because you have no place to put the freaking things when they're done or when they're coming

[53:26] out or why is it that everything gets so ruined? because you have no place in your kitchen to put all this stuff as you're

[53:32] cooking. A speed rack is like, it lets you, uh, you know, store a sheet trays either has or falls. Um,

[53:39] in in like a tall thing with food on them. So then you can have, I did, you know, a couple days ago, I made Christmas cookies late because I didn't get to make my mom's, but they're my mom's. my great great grandma's bonbon cookies that I like. So I made them after Christmas and I just put them in my speed rap, blah, blah, blah, and I was able to put, you know, 8 dozen cookies into the speed

[53:57] rack and I had to go. So those are, what do you think? So good recommendations? Now, you add one more question, and it's regarding self, sir. You want to do a seltzer rig and you link to something called soda, soda, soda, soda, dispenserdepot.com. Um, as a turnkey thing. The system they have looks like it will work. I recommend, the only valve I recommend currently are CM Becker valves for soda, most

[54:24] valves, I don't like, even the style that look like the emulate the old bashion blessing styles. Most people don't make a decent one. Go to fox equipment, FOXX equipment, and look up there, number one, two, C 03 dash 208 Ibis, one Faucet Tower. That's the one I have, and it is the balls. I love that thing. It really makes very high quality. It dispenses high quality seltzer. And it's got a really nice compensator mechanism, so you can adjust the flow rate, and I lose very, very few bubbles off of it. I use a McCann carbonator that I put through a cold plate. I use a minuteowok, ice machine. I have their business, their business luncheon room one that you can shut off the thing when you want and makes really nice ice cubes. I drill holes in the side, put a cold plate in, goes through the McCann carbonator, which I run at

[55:10] 100 psi with a £20 CO2 tank. I can post pictures later. But anyway, so that's what I use. Kenneth, are we going to get kicked off the air? Oh my gosh. That's been a couple weeks since we've been on. All right, hold on a second. So next week, I have to talk about Chip and his egg machine. I have a question from Dave Kleiman regarding gummy bears. I have a question on cooking spiny lobsters from Josh and Antigua versus our lobsters, which, you know, I haven't

[55:39] actually, I could talk a lot about cooking lobsters by having cooked a lot of spiny lobster. Matt and Akron asked me about lime juice and how to clarify it without a centrifuge. I have answers, but I won't be able to get it to it. Today, Matt McCar, your free saw question on gelatin I will get to. Uh, and John on a sand bitter and spice question. Maybe I'll answer some of these on Twitter if I can do it shortly or maybe we'll get to them next time. But Kenneth Ingberg will leave on this. Longtime listener and also supporter of the museum, says this. Uh, I was just thinking about the seers all and came up with this question. Is there any danger associated with the angle of the canister? That is, there's gas phase in the upper portion of the canister and liquid phase in the bottom. When you tip the canister, the liquid could be delivered to the head rather than the gas. Does this pose a safety issue? Winter backpackers and cold garage tinkerers deal with this issue because propane and butane are not very good in cold weather. I think it's because there's not enough gas phase pressure in cold water. true. That why you have to change the orifice size if you know you're going to be working in the cold. So the strategy is to sometimes tip the canister and deliver liquid phase. Sometimes this is an effective strategy, and sometimes you see a warning that this can be very dangerous. Sometimes you see people complaining that torch flame goes out. I saw in one place that the Burns a Matic talks about needing to use a pressure regulated canister if you're going to turn it upside down. The literature for the TS 8000 says during use, hold hand torches upright to prevent flare ups or flashes. So I'm asking about how this might be, how this issue might affect the sears all. Clearly, it burns the magic torches, do not regularly explode under common issues. However, the very high temperature in size, the searsal head could pose a special danger. I think I remember Dave saying he recommends using the TS 8000 head, but what if you don't use it and just find that whatever your handy neighbor has in his garage? And this being a consumer product, your average user is not going to dependably take any special precautions. Best wishes to Dave, the crew, and you, Nastasia, for Happy New Year, Ken. All right. So the issue here is delivering liquid out of the thing, and some torches, the Birds of Matt actually has some precautions to prevent you from dispensing liquid out of it, which

[57:36] is one of the reasons I like the 4000 and the 8000. If you turn them all the way upside down, yeah, they don't they don't work as well, but they're meant to work fairly well as a multiple position torch, even if they're not recommended. It would tani, one of the reasons that the iritani is such a pain in the butt is they go through very great, uh, pains to, and that's why if you look in a

[57:55] newatani torch, they have a thin tube running through that all the butane runs through to pre-volatilize and it warms it before it gets to where the, uh, orifice is, so that it's always going to

[58:04] be, uh, a gas when it comes out, no matter what orientation you hold the torch. Now, the issue is not so much one of safety. When it flames out, it's going to flame out. But that's why the reason why that, if you look at one of the seersolves. The reason why it's angled, why it looks like, you know, an old, like, 60s car front is because we noticed that in our 1st production, in our 1st prototypes, they had a flat face, when you turn the torch, the torches we were

[58:30] using all the way, so that the face was parallel to meat or, you know, parallel to a table surface, that you would start, uh, you would start having problems with liquid delivery, especially

[58:41] when, uh, not a safety problem, but a problem with the actual flame. And you would get this whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, noise and you would get a fluttering. And this is especially exacerbated by the fact that you get a lot of, um,

[58:52] air, uh, and hot vapor coming back up off of the torch head directly back up in line with the torch. And that's why we angled this searsal head, such that the torch would always be slightly inclined, even when the

[59:04] searsal itself was perpendicular, sorry, parallel to your work

[59:10] surface. So that's why we did that. It's not prime, it's irritating, like those flame mounts and stuff are irritating, but I don't think they particularly pose a safety issue.

[59:19] Now, torches that don't have this kind of nice dispensing feature. They're not really going to be high enough power anyway to do what you want with a serial. I really highly recommend. Uh, and I think for the most part, anyone that's buying one kind of, uh, and we'll go into page. eventually we want to make our own torch or like link it with a torch sale, but, you know, we couldn't really for the 1st one around. But, um, and if I was going to do one, I would definitely make it possible to fire it in any direction, uh, possible. But anyway, that's that's my answer on that. So that is something we think about quite a bit. And that's why the front head of the sears all is angled. And we'll get those next questions. I'll either answer some of them on Twitter or we'll get them on next week on cooking issues, cooking your juice.

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