[0:00] You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.

[0:16] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Marnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Roberta's Pictory

[0:26] and Bruce Work, Brooklyn. Every Tuesday on the Harris radio network from, eh, well, a little late today. To, uh, we have to, we have to end on time today, Stas. 1155. I'll tell you what happened to me. It's my fault, obviously, but for those of you that live in New York City and take the subways and don't have your

[0:41] metro card automatically renewed for you. Here's what happens when you go to the machine. you put the card, you put your card in the 1st it says, what do you want to do? Duh, I want a metro card, right? Right? Stas, you're with me on this. And then it says, okay, you know, what do you want to do? I want to refill this card. you can't just put the card in. You know what I mean? So you put the card in eventually after like 18 key presses. And it's like, well, what do you want to do to this card? I want to put money on it. I want to go in the freaking subway. You know what I mean? ask you a 1000000000 questions. And it's like, you sure? Are you sure? You sure you want to go on the subway? And then, like, you have to enter a 1000000000 times? You know how I'd never read the credit card on the 1st swipe? So Stas and I, our classic joke is, is that the person programming, it should

[1:22] have just put a thing as, have you missed your train yet? Have you missed your train yet? How about now? Now? Now have you missed it? So then finally it spits the damn thing out and I see the, uh, there's one specific subway that will get me here on time and I saw, I saw it go, bing bong, as I ran up the stairs because I ran up the backside, you

[1:38] know how they closed the front and then the back and then I got bing bonged. Anyway, my fault, but... The best is when the machine's like, we only accept nickels today.

[1:46] Yeah. Like, I just don't, I don't get this crap at all. Like it doesn't take a rocket scientist. You see, everyone, no offense if the person who programs these machines happens to like hear this at some point, but look, here's a guess. If dude or a lady, I guess, a person, dude, he's kind of gender neutral for me, right? shoves a metro card into the machine. Odds are they want to do something to it, right? You don't have to wait to ask them. Like, if they try to shove a Metro card in, just accept it. Just accept it. And then be, oh, oh, wait a minute. This metro card is a metro card that has money on it. So he must want to add some freaking money to this damn thing. You know what I mean? I'm not making a joke, but you have the only subway station that's upstairs both ways. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I live at Yeah, I live in an awesome environment where it's like the old uphill in the snow both ways. It's true. Yeah. Yeah, Stas loves it because she has to go there because it's also the subway stop for Booker and Dax. No I go to Grand. You go to Essex? No, I mean, when we leave the radio station. Let me go from here. The radio station. Jack, how you doing? I'm good. Yeah? What happened at Williams College? I heard something went down. Uh, well, maybe we could talk about that later. Should we save that for after the break? I mean, all right. So I went to go. Are you talking about like the thing that made Nastasia actually happy for once in the past five years? Nastasia's been happy exactly 2 times in the entire 5 years or three, 4 years that we've been working together. What? was the 1st time? When you got us booked on Jimmy Fallon the 1st time, you were genuinely happy. And, um, I'm talking about not, well, this, I guess, counts for happy for someone else's pain. I seen her happy for other people's pain on more than one occasions. And this one. So this is entirely my fault. I go to Williams and I actually really like Williams a lot. So we're going to Williams. I'd never been to Williams College before, and the interesting thing about Jack, you ever go to Williams College? You ever hang out there? You ever go? He's not there. It's a college, not a university, right? And so the cool thing about it is that the students who are there,

[3:51] the undergrads get to do a lot of stuff that, you know, if you go to university, like I'm sure it's Stanford, right? Same thing. You go to Stanford, the professors care most about the graduate students, right? It just the way it works at a university. I mean, they care about you when you're in the class, obviously. But, you know, the graduate students are more important than the undergrads from this point of view of the professors

[4:10] at the time. But if you go to a college, there are no graduate students. So the professors care about the undergrads. Those undergrads got to do some pretty cool stuff. Anyways, so I did a, we did a lecture there and a sociology thing. So here's a story that Nastasia, I guess, primed Jack to have me tell. And that is, I'm driving for like 3 hours. And I don't know what the

[4:29] hell. I, you know, we... We're with Peter Kim from the Museum of Food Trick. By the way, are there still tickets available for the event? No, not that event. The one this weekend. Yeah, both Okay, so, uh, it's the New York, uh, it's the New York Food Book Festival or whatever it's called, Festival of Food Books, Book and

[4:45] Food Festival. Food book fair. They have it. This weekend in Brooklyn, yeah? At the White Hotel. At the White Hotel, yeah? I'll be there recording the MoFad panel. Oh, there you go. And the MoFad, the Museum of Food and Drink is having the 2nd of its round table panels. you know what time it is yet? Since you're recording... do know. It's at the noontime. And the subject is genetically modified organisms and their place and food. For those of you that don't know, do we charge for this thing, Jack? Or no. don't know. I don't know. No, I don't, Mofads might be a little bit. Just go on.org. Muffet.org. And anyway, we're doing these series of round tables and I'm moderating, but not giving any opinions, which is so hard for me, so hard for me. Uh, uh, we did the last one on the soda band, and this one is on, um, gen- like generally on genetically modified uh, organisms in the uh, food

[5:37] chain, and I am so sorry that I cannot throw my ¢2 in. The difficult thing, surprisingly, is it was more difficult for us to get, we thought it was going to be extremely easy for us to

[5:47] get kind of anti-GMO people on. We have only really one kind of hardcore anti-GMO person.

[5:54] And then, you know, kind of like a couple 2 that are vehemently pro and one that's just kind of more in the neutral zone. But we're hoping to get, uh, we have some questions in from, you know, outside folk that are, you know, that are very

[6:07] antic, because the whole idea is we want to have in these round tables. A reasoned debate on both sides, not just, you know, show one side or the other. Do people at this radio station, are they anti-genetically modified organism, Jack, in general? I mean, generally I'd say so, but we're trying to keep more of an open mind around it because it's not

[6:26] so, you know, black and white. Back to the Williams story. Well, hold a second. It's not it's not just it's not black and white. It's like, I don't even think that they that the argument is framed properly. Right. I don't think people know what they're supporting or against. For instance, like here's something that people don't think they're they're focusing specifically on like

[6:45] transgenic, like additions of genes from different specie or even different, you know,

[6:52] whole categories of thing into something for a specific trait. So, for instance, the ability to um, the ability to resist roundup, right? So you have roundup ready things, right? Which is a nervous side, or the ability to create its own pest resistance without the need for pesticides, which seems to me to be kind of an inherent good, right?

[7:13] Um, whatever. Or increased yield or theoretically, you could increase the nutritional value of things like the, uh, you know, golden rice. It has a higher beta carotene level. There's wide variety of things for doing this. But it seems to me that there's a bunch of different arguments for the harm of

[7:28] it, and other than the moral arguments, like the actual safety, there's also economic arguments, right? I'm not going to get into those, but if your argument is against the safety of it, right? There are things that we do to plants that are much more dangerous from a standpoint

[7:43] of creating possible allergens, right, in the food system. So, um, you know, force mutation through the application of ionizing radiation, right? Which is like, you know, has been since the atomic age, has been, you know, a method for inducing rapid, uh, change in things like corn, for instance, right? You radiate a boatload of seeds. Some of them have mutations, some of them are useful, or very few of them are useful. The rest get thrown away, and you can get new things this way. Much higher potential, according to the studies I've read for possible new allergens and weird crap happening with that sort of mutation, than when you're taking a targeted gene that you know what it does already and injecting it

[8:25] in. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, but like that requires no labeling. No one's saying that we should go label those kinds of seeds. There's no, it's not even on the table. It's not even considered in the genetically modified, you know, in the rubric of genetically modified organisms. So, it just seems to me that, like, to frame all of GMO as kind of one thing under one

[8:44] tenth that's done for one reason with one set of goods and one set of harms is kind of silly. No? Jack, you with me on this? Anyways. I like how you're like squeezing in all your opinions because you can't give them as you're moderating the panel. You like that? Yeah. You like that? All right, so back to Williams. So I'm at the Williams College. And I don't know why Nastasia was, because Nastasia enjoys the embarrassment. once she brings it up, I have to say it. So I go into my room. I forget my luggage is. My luggage is filled with crap for demos. like CO2 and... your clothing. No, my clothing was in my shoulder bag. You said you, well, whatever. Anyway, my clothing was in my shoulder bag. Uh, and uh, because who cares about my clothing? I shoved that in my shoulder bag and the important stuff, the demo goes in my in my in my luggage. So I'm wheeling the luggage, and we didn't do it old school Piper, where we had an open can of propane in it that was left on and nearly burned his hair off.

[9:32] Remember that? That was awesome. It wasn't really awesome. So so anyway, so he has my luggage because I don't know, for some, I always carry everything. I always carry everything. Stasma, right? I carry every freaking thing. So, like Peter, for some reason, thinks he's going to help me out. So he starts wheeling my luggage, so I forget I have it. because my clothes aren't in it. You know what I mean? And I'm not carrying it. So it doesn't exist, right? So I go to my room. I've been driving for like 3.5 hours. We're about to leave. So I go, and I forget to shut my door behind me. It's a giant room, by the way. William said it's in these giant rooms. And I forget to shut the door behind me. I don't know, I assume it auto closed or something and I go into the bathroom and I don't shut that door either because I'm alone in my room. And then Peter and Stas come to bring my luggage, which they didn't need to bring to me because I was going to take it to the demo

[10:18] anyway because all the stuff in the demo is in it. And then I see them out and they're like, Dave, what's up? I'm like, oh my god, I realized the door's though, because they're calling in. I'm like, leave the luggage and shut the door. And then, so Peter starts wheeling the luggage in. He starts wheeling it into the well, into the, into the, there's a, there's a hallway, a foyer, right? And I can see that the kind of movement in the mirror and I'm like, ah, nah. I'm like, so I say, I say close it, meaning the door because clearly the luggage is already inside because I can see the movement of the hand, but here's what Peter

[10:50] hears. closer. Closer? Why would I say closer? That's crazy. So, so he starts going, all right. So I see him like moving closer with the luggage and I'm like, get out, get out. What is wrong with you? Shut the door. Although I had some expletives that were like mixed in. But I guess from their standpoint, they're like, why is this guy leaving the door open and maybe something's wrong with him? Maybe he's dead. I don't know. Maybe he went back inside or whatever, and they hear, leave the luggage and close the door. closer. Anyways, so, and that, that little, just to give you an idea of nastasia, that

[11:27] little, uh, because you don't understand, Dave's biggest fear in life is either being naked or being on the toilet and having anyone hear him or see

[11:35] him. Yeah, or I don't like, I don't like, 1st of all, I like, I only like my restroom in my house, which right now is buried in the very back corner of the

[11:44] house and like, you know, my wife and I, we have our own. I don't know, the kids share it nothing. It's like, you know, it's like my little castle area. I don't want to be bothered, irritated, spoken to. Then you close your hotel room door. Well, look, I made one error and then completely compounded out of all reason. Nuts. Call into questions too, 7184972128. That's 784972128. Nice segue. You like that? Uh, yeah. So anyways, so you can go on the line and go and see the

[12:14] GMO thingamajig at the book festival and I recommend checking out because you know what I like me some books about? Likely some food book style. You like some food books? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What, do you like, do you like Grupo Pizza? It's totally mean. You don't know? I don't know what it is. It's that super thin cracker crust pizza. Oh, no, I like deep dish. What the what? I really love dish. Deep dish. Where did this come from? I just love Chicago style pizza. When was it? I had it in San Francisco last year. So have you been to Chicago and had it? Uh-huh. When were you Chicago? Years, like 10 years ago. How is it that we've like been together this long? I have no idea that you like this kind of pizza. Which, by the way, in Chicago, when you go there and you're like, yo, gay, I want to try some of this

[12:59] Chicago. They're like, nah. They're like, nah, you don't really want to do that. Really? I don't know. They're like ashamed of it there. Like the people I've spoken to there, the locals, they're like ashamed. I guess because they think, look, 1st of all, like when I was a kid, people used to say, oh, New York

[13:14] pizza, oh, New York style pizza. You have New York style pizza. Pizza in New York until about 10 years ago sucked. It sucked hard. It was bad. You know what I mean? There was like 4 or 5 places that made really, really good versions of like old school American New York

[13:28] pizza that I liked, you know what I mean? Like, I like, you know, I like Grimaldi's, I like Lombardi's, I like all that stuff. You know, uh, I guess Arturos. I forgetting a bunch of people, I'm sure. But like, you know, like us actually kicking any sort of butt in the pizza world really is only the past 10 years, you

[13:44] know? But I've never heard someone say that, you know, they're like, you know what I really like? None of this crap. I really, you know, you know, DOP and, you know, none of that crap that I like deep dish. You know, if I had to get like a non-restaurant or artisanal pizza or whatever, I'd probably go to a pizzeria Uno, too. Yeah. I've never, you know, I've never been to pizzeria. Is that similar to a pizza hut style? No, it's like, it's, you know, their whole thing is like Chicago style deep dish. But I guess it's a level above the pizza huts of the world. Well, I mean, I would guess. I mean, I mean, like, yeah, yeah, no offense to Pizza Hut. No offense. Offense, it's terrible. Or a fence. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, someone sent me, you know, because everyone here who's heard the past couple of episodes knows what I feel about Subway and their new flatiza crap. Someone sent me that there's a new chain that's going to come out with a pizza cake. It's like 8 layers of pizza. It looks like deep dish. But it's like deep... I mean, like, 1st of all, people listen, people, people, people. Deep dish pizza works for one reason only. It's not like a crust. It's bread. It's freaking bread, right? Right? And when you make a deep dish pizza, and I know this because even though I'm not a consumer of deep dish pizza, I did deliver Domino's

[14:59] Pizza for a whole summer. in the summer. Yeah, yeah. I drove my mom's car with empty plates on it. So, you know, I was 60 miles an hour all the time. This was back when they used to actually still guarantee the delivery times and like they would tell the drivers, listen, don't speed. Don't break any traffic regulations, but on the other hand, get the freaking pizza there on time. Get it there on time. And they would give you like 3 pizzas to do in one run. I was never late. This is I mean, like, you know, this is why they should not let teenagers drive. Anyways, uh, so you pre-bake those suckers and that's how you get them to work by pre-baking the deep dish thing and then adding the stuff so you get a layer of baked bread so you don't have that nasty, soggy nonsense in the, uh, where the topping, you know, meets

[15:40] the, meets the pizza. Now, because otherwise it would be a nightmare. Imagine. Imagine, Stas, that you have like sauce against a thick thing that wasn't pre-baked at all. That's a nightmare, right? So do you like the grease spray that they put on the bottom of those pins to get the deep dish stuff, do they do that in Chicago? They have like the layer of grease. Is it baked in a pan? Yeah, but I really don't remember eating. Yeah. Anyhoo, uh, so the point is that if you're doing it in a big cake format. How the hell are you going to get to cook right? unless you cook them all individually, like flash cook them, then layer them and then recook them at the

[16:13] end. But even like an old school, like an Italian, like a pasticio, like a pasticio, a

[16:18] lepre, something like a rabbit pie with like the raised sides on it and stuff, like in Bujali's old book, like, I don't think that has lots

[16:25] of, you know, dough layers in the middle of it, does it? I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it's a nightmare of an idea. But we'll see. I mean, I'm willing to try a thin slice. First of all, who wants pizza in that format? Who wants to eat pizza with a fork except Bill de Blasio? Yeah. You know? All right. Um, okay. So, uh, also I was researching somebody's uh, question. What do we, did I miss something? I miss it? Oh, yes. MoFAD? is having its 2nd blowout benefit on Wednesdays, the

[16:57] seventh, which is a Wednesday. Yeah. May 7th, and we have an incredible series of chefs coming in and there are still tickets available. Go to MoFed.org. because they have a link directly off the thing now, right? Yeah. It's expensive. You guys wish you had gone to the original one that Nastasia and I threw and stupidly only charged $250

[17:20] for it, which was crazy. Like, you could not buy that meal anywhere near $250. That was nuts. Like the value on that was crazy. We're the dumbest 2 people that are at least that are sitting in this radio station right now. Oh, by the way, speaking of dumb, did you notice that now that the weather's nice, Roberta's finally put up a freaking aunting outside? Oh, I was like, wait, what the hell? Does that make any goddamn sense? had to happen sometime. It's the one day you don't need a freaking awning is right now. There it is. There it is. It's not an awning. like a it's a winter door. It's like a winter vestibule thing. Yeah, not at all. It's like a winter vestibule. It may rain a lot. Yeah, but there's the inside thing. It's just a nightmare. And you know what? They put the thing up, but don't they still have the ratty curtain or do they get rid of the ratty curtain? There's a ratty curtain. So, like, the thing about Roberta's is, right, is that everything is kind of like, and I say this with

[18:11] love. complete love, Jack. Right? No, but I'm saying, so you know, I want you to vouch for this. Everything's put together with kind of like with duct tape, spit and bubble gum. Yes. Yeah. And they're kind of like, hey, we want a dining room. I'll just get some tinker toys and glue the crap together and we'll have a dining room and somehow it works for them and it's great, right? So, like a typical Roberta style, when you walk in to prevent the wind from like killing everyone at the front, they have a ratty curtain, which, you know, it was nice probably when it started, but it turned ratty and they kept it and that was kind of the

[18:41] charm. And so they kept the ratty curtain and added the vestibule. What's up with that? Any thoughts, Jack? All I can say is when it's busy here at night, that the spillover. Maybe it'll help the waiting people waiting. Who the hell wants to wait in a vestibule? I hate waiting in a vestibule. A warm summer night? You want to be in a vestibule? Yeah, cramped in a vestibule with a bunch of hipsters. Nice for winter. By the way, my booker and Dax were like, dad, what's a hippie? Oh. Did you see there was a Jesus contest on Sunday? No. Well, we're running a little far afield here. Okay. So I was researching a question that I'm going to read you in a second. Should we ever get the questions here on the show? And I came across this paper, which I will just read you the abstract

[19:23] of, because if you're like me, you read a lot of abstracts of articles, and I like abstracts of review articles, but somehow this one captured my attention, so I'm

[19:32] going to read it to you. Applications and function of food grade phosphates by Lucina Lampila, the Department of Food Science in the Louisiana Sea Grid

[19:40] College Program, LSU Act Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. LSU, that's for Pat. Yeah? Go, Pat. That's not Pat the Patriots. That's Pat Nastasia's friend. Food grade phosphates are used in the production of foods to function as buffers, sequestrance,

[19:57] acidulants, bases, flavors, cryoprotectants, gel accelerants, dispersants, nutrients, precipitants, and as free flow,

[20:04] anti-caking, or ion exchange agents. The actions of phosphates affect the chemical leavening of cakes, cookies, pancakes, muffins, and donuts. The even melt of processed cheese, the structure of a frankfurter, the bind and hydration of delicatessen meats, the fluidity of evaporated milk, the distinctive flavor of cola beverages, the free flow of spice blends, the mineral content of isotonic beverages, and the

[20:27] light color of par fried potato strips. Hell, yeah. That is an article I want to read about me, some phosphates. That's selling the phosphates. am I right, Jack? Yeah, sounds pretty good. Hell yeah. I'm like, phosphates. What? And they use phosphates to make them more acidic to make them more basic. It's like phosphates and everything. And this article starts from like mining rocks out of the ground to like all of those kind of things. So if you like a review article like I like a review article, go check out

[20:54] Lucino Lampila's applications and functions of food grade phosphates. available at any, you know, major, uh, academic library near you. You know, this could be like a regular segment on the show, you review a paper like that, you know? Yeah. Yeah, that was a pretty good review right there. Yeah, well, check this one out. This one, the paper's not so interesting, but this has to have lost something in translation. So if I were to ask you, what a spent chicken is, Stas and Jack, what do you think a spent chicken is?

[21:26] The remains of I don't know. Yeah, that's what I thought. I thought it was like they had a bunch of like, you know, like partially defatted fatty meat product or like mechanically deboned. Like that's what I thought they meant spent chicken was. No, no, a spent chicken is a chicken that's been laying eggs for, like, you know, its entire, like, laying lifetime. However many months, they allow it before it stops laying eggs effectively. That's what they mean as a spent chicken. So they're tougher, right? And like they're really good for things like soups and stews, but I guess these guys are trying to find, uh, you know, other uses for it. So here's this article. I was going to read the title for you and tell you what they did. It's by Anchor Das and Dilip Ronjon at all, Dilip Ronjon Nath at all. And it's studies on certain quality attributes of meat pickle prepared from spent chicken. Wow. You know what they do? They pressure cook and then they pressure cook in vinegar and deep fry with spices, chicken until it has so little moisture and like so high acidity

[22:25] they can just sit out on a shelf for 90 days without anything happening to it. But like, when was the last time you hankered for a spent chicken pickle? And in the article they call them spent chicken pickle, which is, I think, a really good band name. What do you think, Jack? You can start a band called Spent Chicken Pickle. I have to talk to Joe about that. Yeah, speaking of which, what was that music we had at the beginning? Oh, it was a band called Snowmine. Yeah, it's a strange combination of weepy and optimistic at the same time. Can I disclose something funny on the air very quickly? The bassist in that band? The drummer, rather, was my my butt, my orientation palette, NYU. And he was dating at the time a girl named Stephanie Germanado, who was one of our classmates. Yeah, exactly. She went on to be Lady Gaga. Oh really? Her name is Germanado? Germanada. Stephanie Germanada. Yeah, so any skinny on that? I mean, I didn't like her band in college. Jack's like, well, you know, I heard her band in college. I wasn't a fan. I wasn't. I wasn't. I just wasn't a fan. just didn't, you know, thought it was derivative work. Oh, musicians. Dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, at all. Thank you for your assistance with my last question on sous vide fried chicken. I haven't tried it since then, but your description of the problem with my process seems spot on. And this is the question, by the way, that I was researching and found phosphates and all sorts of other things. I did fried chicken for Easter. You ever told you about that lady in the Rite Aid, right? No, maybe. I'm at the Rite Aid, like, you know, in

[23:50] February, and like they had Easter crap out. She's like, Easter, ain't even Valentine's over yet. Not Valentine's Day, Valentine, like it's a time of day. Valentine. Ain't even Valentine's over yet. Anyway, I did fried chicken foisto. So whenever I say Easter now, I have to say foista, uh, and attempted to deep fry some bread and butter pickle chips to snack on.

[24:10] Bread and butter, pickle chips. You like the bread and butter pickle? I know. Really? Do you like any pickles? Yeah, I like really hard ones. You don't like sweet pickles. Yeah. But not bread and buttered chips. No, no, no. Do you like, so what type of sweet pickle do you like? The thin, small, crunchy suckers? Small crunchy. What are your thoughts on the bread and butter pickle jack? Sorry, I got detracted. Bread and butter pickle? Like them? Hate them? Yeah, I like them. Yeah. Relish? You like relish? Nope. No? No? Really? What about tartar sauce? No. What? Really? What do you put on your on your fried, uh, on your, like, you know, New England style fried seafood place? I don't get that. You don't like fried seafood platters? Let me tell you something, people. If you go to like the average, you know, clam shack on in the ocean, like... I like lamb jacks. I like the food. Okay, but if you go to them, right, with the exception of like real East Coast lobster roll, which is decent, right? If you're given a choice, they always have some crap called like the

[25:10] admiral platter or something like this, you know what I mean? Always get it fried. The broiled is a huge mistake. Huge. You don't like fried clams? Even with bellies on, the fresh ones? I don't like I don't like seafood. What like seafood? I mean, I like I don't like fried seafood or cooked seafood. I like a lobster roll. I don't like lobster. See, fried seafood for me, I'd rather do like lemon on it than tartar sauce. Really? Yeah, isn't that weird? Like just lemon? Yeah. Do you like mayonnaise on your french fries? Nope. Well, you don't like French fries, freak show. Okay. I used a flour buttermilk flour process, which is similar to the one I use for chicken, and found that the flour generally rubs off quite a bit from the pickles after the buttermilk dip, leaving them partially unbreaded.

[26:03] Still delicious, but I think they'd be better with evenly adhered breading. Do you have a sure fire way to get good, even breading adhesion for fried pickles? Thank you for your help and I can't wait for my Sears all, Jeff Mays, Los Angeles, California, one of yours does. Los Angeles. So, um, here's the uh, here's the deal. So I cheat. So the old school, like low tech, the problem you're having is the high moisture content is creating like a lack of adhesion of the batter.

[26:33] So you're getting some slough off probably right at the beginning. I don't know whether you padded the pickle trips really, really dry before you

[26:40] started, before you did your 1st pre-dust, but I'll typically do that to

[26:45] draw, because I've done a bunch of, I used to do a lot of fried pickles, you know, and I would dry them off a little bit.

[26:53] If that's not enough, you might even want to try letting them sit on a rack for a little

[26:56] while just to flash off some of their extra moisture because what you're most likely dealing with here is a moisture control problem. Now, because, you know, all I've ever learned about batter adhesion tells me that you want the surface to be, you know, tacky and dry when you start.

[27:11] Now, of course, you know, going against that is the style that they do

[27:14] here and the pot pies and thigh style of fried chicken where they literally take it out of the brine and throw it right into the flour. But, you know, I've never, I've never tested. Everything I've learned is said that in high moisture situations, there's adhesion problems and also problems when you're frying of what's called

[27:28] blow off, where chunks of the batter will pop off during the cooking or slough off or not adhere properly to the food.

[27:34] Okay. So if it's not adhering beforehand, there are a couple things you can do. You can add special. I'll do this, but you can add specialty starches to the mix. So, uh, like a batter bind or uh, there's another one that's uh, used that's actually not sold by a modern's pantry, not made by national stars, just made by the other corporation. its name slips my mind right now. But you can add that will, um, and they're usually, I think they use some form of oxidize starch because they're, uh, I think they're pre- I think they're pre-done oxidized starches are usually what they're using in the battery adhesion ones. But I don't really remember why. I just remember their oxidized starches. And those will increase adhesion dramatically. And so, you know, I was looking last night at some, at some microscope, uh, microscopy and also just cross-sectional uh, things of different uh, pre-dust containing either nothing control

[28:30] flour as a pre-dust, uh, containing, um, uh, methylcellulose, uh, and containing um, oxidized starch. And the oxide starch, sure enough, were likes, wheat. They were awesome. in terms of adhesion. So you can try adding a modified product like that to it. Or you can do the really old-fashioned way. If you don't mind having a heavy batter coding on it, a lot of times for difficult things like okra, which tends to slip off a

[28:55] lot, like okra, even though it's got hair on the, like fried okra does. I haven't had it, they don't think. Oh my god. Jack, what about fried okra? One of the few things I don't love, metal eat it. It a little slimy. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I not talking okra chopped up in a gumball. I'm talking fried whole okra pods. You had it? Not fried. I've had whole okra pods, but not fried. All right, listen. Slimy. Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. When you're when you're like, okay, you need to come over. We need to make you some fried whole okra because they're not, they're only slimy when the stuff on the inside kind of escapes.

[29:32] When it stays on the inside of its own pod, right, when you're frying it, it, I mean, it still is what it is, but it doesn't have the feeling of

[29:41] sliminess, because the outside is like super crunchy, the fried, the fried okra on the

[29:46] outside, and you want to, you want like a thick, crunchy breading layer on this. The outside and the inside is like melting and soft, but does not come off as slimy at all. And they're great. The trick with it is, is, again, do not cut them at all. Leave them whole and make sure when you're shopping for okra pods in the store, assuming that you don't have your own okra

[30:08] plants. You want to, a lot of times, especially where I live, they prepackage the okra in like little styro packs, you want to feel the

[30:17] okra pods because they start, at a certain point, the okra pods start getting woody on the outside, and then you can feel them. You can feel the ones that are tender and the ones that are less tender. And just stay away from the ones that are less tender because you're not going to be cooking them a long time, like in a gumbo or soup. You just going to be frying them really quickly, so you want them to cook really quickly. So make sure you're starting with tender okra pods, bread those things and fry them. And that is some delicious stuff. And I've never had, even I've had people who hate okra, and I've never had someone come back and say, you know what? Like, uh, crap on that, that's not delicious, because that stuff's inherently delicious. But back to what I was saying, surprisingly, you would think that okra would have good adhesion, but it doesn't because it doesn't pick up

[30:58] pre-dust swell. Like the flour pre-dust that you put in a typical, I mean, everything depends on what kind of batter technology you're using. So there's people who do pre-dust and then in a liquid flour batter. I don't do that. I do pre-dust, into liquid, then into a solid again. typically what I do. But if you're, the predust does not adhere at all to okra. So what you do is you do a pre-dust, a marginal amount sticks, then you do your wet, then you do your

[31:23] solid, and it picks up some, but still isn't coated. And then you do a quick rewet and then a crick quick solid again, at which point you have a nice, thick, thick batter coating. And if you don't mind having that thick of a coating, the double do on it always makes it stick to any damn thing. never going to get it. And that's what I do on, especially on products that have a high rate of meltouts, like mozzarella sticks. Do you like fried mozzarella sticks at least? Jesus. Jack, fried mozzarella sticks. Yes. Okay. Come on. What the hell is wrong with these people? Not you, Jack. just saved yourself with that one. Fried mozzarella sticks. Do you like, do you like grilling cheese, like queso para frier or halumi? Grilled? You had it? Really? I don't think I've had it. No, I know I've had it. don't have an opinion. You know, like grilled cheese, like grilled cheese delicious hot and it turns squeaky when it gets cold. I hate squeaky cheese. Yes, yes, yes. Well, that's why you got to eat it when it's hot. That why you eat it when it's hot. Eat it well, it's hot. Eat it well it's hot. So the, um, Anyhoo, so, uh, I would, I would use that. I would do that. So if you don't want to do the double dip, which is inherently going to get it, then the, the, you know, the next thing to do, uh, in terms of ease is a partial uh, pat down of them beforehand and

[32:34] dehide, not your pet. Pat down and partial dehydration. Uh, not, not so that they lose their crunchiness, just so that they're a little bit, you know, dry, a little bit pellical formed on the outside. And then the next step up from that in technological difficulty is to add some modified starch to the

[32:50] pre-dust or to use a modified starch, just the pre-dust. And one of those things should help you out. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Does that make sense? Yep. I love frying. Do you know that I have to I had to decommission my fryer. Did I tell you that? Did I say that in the air? Well, it wasn't a leak. Did I tell us on the air? Did I talk about this? I have to get around it. I have to get around. You only have, yeah, today is a short one. I don't, yeah, my God. Okay. Uh, question. I don't have who the question is from. I hate that Okay, hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack at all. I'm a big fan of the show. Finally caught up with all the back episodes a few weeks ago. Question number one. My wife and one of my daughters have a gluten intolerance after much gluten free. Baking experimentation. My wife has found the most success using recipes for baking mixes from the gluten-free on a shoestring

[33:42] blog, HTTP, gluten-free on a shoestring.com, all-purpose gluten-free flour recipes forward slash. One of the keys for a palatable texture in baked goods is using these baked

[33:54] good using these mixes is a super fine brown rice

[33:58] flour and a super fine white rice flour. Buying the super fine version of either day's flowers is rather expensive. The best super fine rice we have found are from authentic foods. com. But a regular rice flour results in a gritty product. Yeah, regular rice flour kind of sucks. We have tried using both our crappy blender and our food processor to grind a regular version of these rice flowers to a finer consistency, but are not happy with the results. A vitamix is already at the top of my kitchen wish list is that going to be the best tool to use with some kind of mill be

[34:30] better. That's Chip Smith. What's Chip Smith? the name of the man. Oh, hey, Chip Smith. I was like, I was like, I was like, that sounds awesome. Shout out, Jackson. Shout out to John Riper. Oh, yeah. Just because. Do you want to do it? Like, you want me to answer this question? You want to do the quick commercial so that we get our get our busyals paid? And then all right, let's do it. Why don't passes is the only phone in the United States that has its own USDA

[34:56] inspected, red meat abattoir, or slaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected poultry abattoir,

[35:03] a slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land, stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, White Oakpastages.com. And we're back. Hey, Jack, I had a question for you. Do you know of any farm that has its own USDA inspected, a red meat abattoir? Yeah, they also happen to have one of the best voiceover talents in the game working there. No, like that guy owns that. He owns it. owns it. Will Harris. We have our own red meat abattoir. That guy is like, I would buy I would buy red meat from that man. Yeah, right? It's available in Whole Foods. They're the only 5 plus star rated poultry at Whole Foods. They don't have it at my Whole Foods. What whole foods do they have it at? I'll have to get back to you on that, but check. Because my son, Booker, the older one is obsessed with animal welfare ratings. That's awesome He's upset. So he's like, he, like, the whole, here's the mistake the Whole Foods made, right? So those of you that don't shop at Whole Foods. If you go to the Whole Foods, in their meat counters and in the cases on the side, not on processed goods, usually like salumi, like

[36:24] liquertia and all that stuff that they carry, which one, we won't talk about that. But the on all of their kind of fresh meat goods, they put animal welfare ratings on it. The problem is this. They start at one, and then go to 5 plus with one being the lowest grade that Whole Foods accepts, but it's still, you know, from an animal welfare standpoint, better than nothing.

[36:45] You know what I'm saying? So they, what, they made them, like the tactical error, I think,

[36:49] is, and a lot of the stuff they have is ones, a lot of it. You know what I mean? Like the majority is ones. And, like, don't you think they should have, like, made it from like a one to like seven? Yeah, and then not, and then not bought one and 2 and being like, Whole Foods only buys three, four, five, 6, and

[37:07] 7. yo. You know what I'm saying? Three will be the new one. Well, they work with it. We've done some cool coverage on this, actually. And they work with the producers to kind of get them from one to 5 plus. So it's like by bringing them on board, they're like, okay, you're good enough. You're a one, we can sell you and we're going to help you get to a 5 plus. Right. I mean, because, yeah, there's like, you know, there's different reasons to get into different aspects of, um, of, um, you know, sustainable and or small farming, right?

[37:34] And one is that one is that you just don't like the way animals are treated in large farms,

[37:40] right? Right? They don't like the way they're treated. don't like the way they're slaughtered. Regardless of taste, whether it tastes better or not, regardless of, uh, you know, whatever, you're willing to pay more to have an animal that has been kind of treated well.

[37:54] And, uh, yeah, 5 plus is the highest, and I believe that means that not only is

[37:59] it like animal centered, pasture center, but it lives its whole life on the one farm, right? And it's never taken off. And that's why they're probably the only people can do it because they never have to ship their animals off site. Right? He's like, I don't care anymore. No, sorry, somebody walked in. Oh, yeah. I think that's why, though. Anyway, all right, they're going to kick us off. Let me answer this question soon. Vitamix, I don't like grinding flour in a Vitamix. I'll tell you why. It's a huge mess and it like throws particles up in the inside and then when you open the thing, you're inhaling rice flour particles. I've done it. Food processors don't work as you say. I do not recommend. I don't know if you asked it. The only mill I've ever owned it, uh, like grinding mill is, uh, the KitchenAid makes a, um, a grain mill that you can attach to, um, to a

[38:48] KitchenAid, and it grinds things, but I can't, I'd love to recommend

[38:53] it. And I really want it to be awesome, but it's not. Like, it's just not. It's not, doesn't produce a very, very fine flour. It's extremely slow. It tends to heat things up. Um, and I have, I myself have never used a mill that I, uh, liked, especially if you're going to be grinding large quantities, uh, of something. I've also tried using coffee mills to do grinding with not too much success so far. I tried using, you know, those hand cranked, um, what's the Japanese name? I forget. Anyway, the one that we all have to do manual grinding. I tried to grind a bunch of bean flour in that. And that was a ruddy mess too. So, um, I'm sorry to say that, uh, you know, there are ones out there and I'm, but I hesitate to recommend any of them because I haven't used them. Go look for a high quality grain mill. I would say don't get the KitchenAid grain mill for this application. KitchenAid grain mill works great for, and of course, you don't care because you're doing gluten-free stuff, but like when I was doing all grain brewing to break

[39:55] up, uh, to break up barley, it's great for coarser things, it's great. But like if you're doing, especially if you're going to do a lot of grains other than rice, anything that has a high oil content, the KitchenAid's going to seize up on you.

[40:06] So I'll try to look in more and get more recommendations for you for the next time around. If anyone please wants to send me some, um, grain mill recommendations into at cooking issues on the Twitter. I will gladly pass them on. Not next week's show because next week I will be in, I will be flying to

[40:26] France. I am going to visit the Carthusian monks who make one of my favorite beverages,

[40:30] the Chartreuse. You're not going to be here next week? No, I'm going to be in France. But I'm not, but I'm not going to be, usually when I'm in, when I'm in another country. I can call in and say something, but the, I'll be on a plane. And I think I'll be on a plane. I have to look up where I am because unfortunately, my travel both times is on a Tuesday. So if I can do it next week, I will call in because I don't want to miss 2 weeks. You know what I'm saying? Um, but I had one more thing on grain before. Oh, for inexpensive supply of very fine grain rice flour, go to Asian markets. Don't go to your standard, you know, uh, you know, Western supermarket. You can get really, really inexpensive, extremely fine-grained rice flowers at Asian supermarkets. So if you live anywhere near one. Um, you can go get it and you can get, I mean, obviously they sell what's called glutenous rice flour. It doesn't really have gluten in it because it's rice flour, and they sell various grades and types of rice flowers, along with many other

[41:27] gluten-free, like strange flowers, like yam flowers and whatnot. And they're dirt cheap. They're on the level of price of AP flour. But I do think that, you know, you should look into getting a mill of your own. I just don't happen to have a decent recipe. So, uh, I will answer your next question, uh, the next time we are on, and it's an interesting one, Styles, I want you to think about this. I'll read the question, but then since we don't have the time, I will not answer it. I'm a big fan of pasta Putinesca, you like that? Even though it has a name that you don't like or do you? But you don't like the name. No, you don't like the name. Nastas doesn't like names like that. I usually make more than what I will eat at one meal because I like having it the next day as cold pasta. You like cold pasta? at all? What about like American pasta salad? Even though it's got mayonnaise on it? All right. Jack, you don't like the pasta salad because it's got the mayonnaise. mayonnaise, right? I do like cold pasta, though. What about like, what about, how do you guys feel about like cold sesame noodles? Those things are delicious. Oh yeah, delicious. Stas? No, no. She's like, no, no. She like, she's it's not the vegan face. It's like the head pressed as far back into her neck as possible, head rapidly shaking back and forth. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Something I've noticed about eating it the next day when it is cold or at room temperature, I need to add salt. What's the deal? Is the colder temperature changing how I perceive the flavor's that much? Thanks. Well, that is an interesting, and I think more complicated than you would think, um, question. So we'll get to it next time, but the hints are that your perception of all flavors, most

[42:58] flavors change with temperature, how they relate to each other change with temperature, but also the food itself might be changing due to absorption of absorption of

[43:08] salt into the pasta over the course of the night. So we'll talk about these various effects the next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes stored by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.