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[0:58] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking your shoes coming to you live, actually at 12 this time. 12 o'clock. I was here at 12 On Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Calling your questions live too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Join as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How are you? Good. Yeah? Yeah. Jack? I'm doing great. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we're gonna, uh, well, it's planned. We gonna have a special guest caller. After the break. Nils Norris, formerly of the French Culinary Institute, now hitting up Marcus

[1:38] Samuelson's Restaurant Group. And we'll ask him how many restaurants he's opened this week because like whenever you're like, all I'm, you know, I actually, well, we used to just do fake Austrian, so I can't really imitate the actual Nils accent, so I won't even try.

[1:51] But anyhoo, he's like, every time you call him, he's like, yeah, I'm headed off to somewhere crazy to open like 13 restaurants.

[1:58] I'll be back in like a month, right? I think that he and you were guests together the 1st time you came on heritage on Patrick's

[2:08] show like years and years ago. That is entirely possible. Yeah. That is, that is. I mean, I'm not going to say, plus or minus whether that's the case, but he's going to come on, actually, to talk to us about bone marrow to answer Justin's pressing questions on bone

[2:21] marrow, because you know what? I used to like, yeah, I'll talk about it a little bit now. You know, I've cooked plenty of bone marrow in my life, but it's always just been kind of homestyle in

[2:30] Asabuco. You know, you like Osbuko, right? Finally something we like together. Jesus. You know, Asabuko when I was a kid was cheap. It wasn't expensive back in the day. So anyways, I used to cook it anyway, and then I'd take out the bone marrow and put it on my risotto. But, you know, that's about the extent. I've never cooked it restaurant style. So, you know, for service. Anyway, so no is going to come on because the man is cooked more bone marrow than I care to eat. Okay. So, let's answer some other questions. By the way, Dave, uh, Climb and had a question a long time ago, he is at, I am

[3:05] fractal on the, uh, on the Twitter, and he says, uh, Deer at cooking issues, reminding, reminding you to talk about infusing clams slash oysters.

[3:15] And then he says sous vide tricks, but I don't really know any sous vide flavor tricks. I know sous vide tricks for oyster. You know any sous vide tricks for rasers? No. I mean, I'm sure that like, uh, I believe the

[3:25] Rocas have like a razor clam recipe, I think. I'm sure, but although you know what? Like, you know who's a really good low temperature recipe is the modernist cuisine recipe for

[3:34] gooey duck. For those of you that have never had the gooey duck before. I mean, for those of you that don't know what Gooey Duck looks like. I feel like Stas will hate this. I mean, do you like Eli Duck Stas? I don't think I've ever I've had it at Mirbold's thing. It's spelled Geoduck for those either. So who the hell knows why it's pronounced gooey duck. And what's his name? Yule Gibbons in stalking the blue eyed scallop, which is classic of foraging, by the way. Uh, he, you know, he does stalk in the wild asparagus, stalk in a blue white scallop, a couple other books. Anyway, like he talks about going to get it like at the super low, low tide, like running out on the, on the Pacific coast and get, I don't know whether it's true or false, but he, you know, he has an article on it. Anywho, it is, um... Let's just say it's suggestive as

[4:20] a as an animal. Am I right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, imagine you took, uh, like, a steamer's shells, inflated them huge,

[4:31] and then spread them open, and then, and then went on the set of a porn movie with

[4:36] it and used it. Used it as a, some sort of, anyway, it's, it's horrific

[4:43] site and even more so when you prepare it because you have to peel the outer skin off, which is possibly the most suggestive thing I've ever done in a

[4:51] kitchen. Like, hands down, you know, taking the skin off of a gooey duck outside is like banana

[4:58] rams, but so then it's very tough that, you know, that siphon, we'll call it, is very tough. And so, you know, one of the things you can do is just slice it really, really thin on a bias and

[5:10] sauce it and then eat it like that, it's got kind of a nice crunch to it. Uh, or, or, but Nathan and uh, Chris and, uh, you know, uh, Maxine, these guys in the modernist cuisine. I don't really know whose recipe it was. They put it in a CVAP and cooked it very quickly, very low, and it was the most tender gooey duck I've ever had in my life. It's delicious. You had it. You liked it, right? I've only had it like Crudo, I think. Yeah, Crudo, where it's kind of crunchy. It's nice. But anyways. So onto flavor infusion. So here's a... Wait, really quick. I just have to add this The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington. There's school mascots, the Gooey Duck. You're lying to me. I'm not lying to you I'll show you. I'll show you over the break. Who the hell would do that? They call it Speedy the Gooey Duck. Well, I'm sorry that he's so speedy. Yeah, and say, yeah, speedy. That's what she said. Anyway, what college? Uh, it's it's a Evergreen State College. And they couldn't have chosen like something out of their like amazing temperate rainforest up there. They had to choose the gooey duck. There's a Gooey Duck fight song. I'm not kidding. There's a whole, yeah. How does the mascot look? Like a gooey duck. Well, what direction is the siphon pointed? Oh Jesus. God. Like, what, what kind of asexual dean and or president of the university allowed this to

[6:30] happen, either that or what kind of just nutjob? If that's what the kids want, That's what the kids want. Gooey duck it is. You'll have to live with it, kids. I don't. I don't go to the football games. You know what I mean? Is that's got to be how it happened. Oh man, this can't be real. The fight song lyrics. I don't even know if I can... Alright, Jackie, give me some of your musician skills. Give me the fight song. sing it, but I'll say I can't even do... Do it. It's got to be family oriented. It's a college fight song. Go gooey ducks go through the mud in the sand. Let's go. Siphon high, squirt it out, swivel all about, let it all hang out. This is real. Oh, my Washington State. Oh my god. Oh my god. Sorry. That is horrific. It's bad. It's terrible. Oh my god. You you have defiled Washington. What is it? Washington? What is it? Washington State. Washington State. Evergreen State College. Evergreen State College. You have defiled a delicious animal with your innuendo. Anyways, so on to flavoring oysters. Actually, the, by the way, I'm just going to say this up front. This is news to Nastasia as well as myself because I just thought of it just now. Flavoring oysters using flavored seawater analogs was the very, very 1st post on

[7:49] Cooking Issues.com. Uh, it was, uh, in fact, I came up with that trick, and then I'm like, we should have a blog to write this stuff down. So it's the very, very 1st post on the cooking issues. And you know what I realize, Stas, just now, and I'll talk about a 2nd thing, but it's like, um, I'm never going to have the time, again, in my life to write cooking issue style posts.

[8:12] It's just not gonna happen. How many times have I said I want to try and do it? And I can't because all those posts are like 2 and 3000 words, right? And more sometimes 4 or 5000. And they're all like, you know, we had to do extensive research. Really, I was only capable of doing that when my job was to come up with that kind of stuff at the French

[8:31] culinary institute. So, you know, nowadays, I don't really have the time to um, to devote to just writing that length of, even if I

[8:41] were to come up with the idea, writing that length of dialogue on stuff. So I shouldn't pretend that I am. We should just close cooking issues like archive it, never pretend that it's going to go live again. It was what it was. And, you know, we have the content. It's there, the content will stay up. And then if ever, you know, I decide to have some sort of online presence other than the radio show and uh, and Twitter, then we'll do some, some new concept, some new, new

[9:07] format because we won't be able to do the cooking issues and rather than change what that was, just kind of leave it as a document. What do you think? So, all right. RIP cooking issues blog. Well, Paul can, Paul can continue it. But I think like Paul Adams, by the way, who's they are a good friend who's the, I guess he's the head,

[9:30] like, chief online editor, I don't know what his title is at popular science. He runs, he runs their web presence. fundamentally. And he's a really good guy. Maybe we'll do something someday, you know, with Paul, because he's a good guy. But I think we should change the format. You know? Something less, something more spontaneous, less, less. We tried that. didn't work. No, I mean, not as cooking issues. Just like, you know, just like a random thoughts thing that anyone that's working with us can put stuff up or something like this. Something I don't need to devote. I mean, whatever. Anyway, I think we should just have it be what it was and that's it. You know what I mean? Cooking issues lives on in the radio show, Jack. you know that? Yeah exactly. Okay, so back to oysters. It was the very 1st post on, oh, that used to be my iPad. It was the very 1st post on cooking issues. And the concept was this. I read somewhere that oysters don't, I was reading about the physiology of

[10:22] oysters, because that's the kind of crap I do. And, you know, it came to my attention that oysters won't feed in a

[10:29] refrigerator. It's just too cold. You need to be in a kind of a mid-range temperature for it to feed, but you also don't want it to feed over. I forget what the number is. I going to make it up, let's, somewhere in the 60s, 50s, 60s, because then you start having problems of growing vibriotox in it, right? So it's this middle line thing. And then I realized, well, look, look. If I can get oysters to feed at a temperature that's just above refrigeration temperature, I can maintain that temperature with either a

[10:55] circular standing bath. It turns out you don't need a circulator, but you can maintain it, right? And I was like, well, what do they feed on? They feed on seawater. So I can get aquarium salt because at the time I had a saltwater aquarium, and I had a bunch of aquarium salt, and you could just mix up, you could take whatever you want, and the thing we settled on was carrots and cardamom, like carrot

[11:15] juice and cardamom. And I, you have to put it through a very fine filter because if you clog, if you clog an oysters,

[11:22] gills with particles. And it's a small particle size. I forget exactly what it is, but it's somewhere in the range of 10 microns, 10, 15 microns, something like

[11:30] this. And a Vitaprep's not going to get anything below about 20 microns in that range.

[11:35] I don't know what a champion sieves juicer plate is at, but anyway, I have a rotor state or homogenizer. So I use that to get the particle size down really low. You could probably just do a decent filter on it and get it through, then added aquarium salt to get it up to the base salinity that I wanted, and then you place the oysters in it, and you let them

[11:52] feed for a couple of hours, and then you ice them down again. You don't want to, uh, keep them in the bath for too long because even it's possible, and I spoke to an oyster physiologist about

[12:04] this. It's possible for the oyster to grow bacteria that are not harmful to it. So the oyster will still appear healthy, but could be harmful to you. For instance, you know, vibrio, but that's not going to grow in the conditions that

[12:15] we have here. Anyways. So, uh, so we chose that and we did it also with clams. We did, what do we do, Stas, bacon, onion or something like that. We did like a bacon onion and clams. And once you practice, you practice a bunch. You can get to the point where like 75% of your oysters are eating the stuff.

[12:32] And you want to spread them out in a layer and you don't want to disturb them because if you disturb them, they shut up

[12:36] like a clamor an oyster does. you know, that's what they're, that's what they do. And then what you do is you wash them off, right? And then you pack them on ice. And then when you shuck them, they're bright orange on the inside, which is awesome. And a couple other people have tried this. I don't know if anyone's ever done it for service in a restaurant, but it was like kind of my

[12:52] 1st trick, not my 1st trick, cooking trick, obviously, but the 1st one we wrote up on the blog. So you can go look at it on the cooking issues, which is now archived. Yeah? So anything good happening this week, Stas? Um, are we doing anything huge? No. I feel like we did a bunch of stuff last week. Was I away last week? Did I go somewhere last week? No, we were here. We did some event. I know we did some event. I can't remember though. We, uh, we got some. I don't want to say this, but I feel like I have to where people are going to start getting pretzels. I think it was all about that. All seers all the time. Oh, no, because last week is the week I got back from Tales, right? I got back on this Sunday or this Saturday. And then last week, I feel like we had a big event. We always have like, it's not like whatever. We can't have a week without having a date. Yeah, he came back from tales. Yeah. Anyway, my point is, is that we got word from our factory that they will complete the

[13:51] production. Now, I'm not guaranteeing this, this is what they say. complete production on. The 15th of August. of August, and we're shipping by air. So it's going to get here super fast. You had your book party last week. Oh, yes. Oh, that's true. My book, by the way, I've seen the color stuff. printed in China, and I should have advanced color copies in in like a month. It arrives in October and then sells in November. Should be fun, right? Well, not really. Nothing's fun. exciting. It's exciting. I'll give you exciting. I hear croissant being eaten. Jack is like, now you know what it's like, Styles, to have you see there. Guilty as croissanted. Like, so, Stas, what are your thoughts on croissant? I like chocolate filled croissants. That's it. You don't like a regular croissant? What? I don't know. What do you have against flaky? I like biscuits and all that. It's just... It's what? You might actually be the 1st person I've ever met that doesn't like a regular croissant. Chocolate filled. and PS. PS, nothing like a biscuit. If your croissant, if your croissant is like a biscuit. No, just like the white, flaky thing, you know? So how do you work with me if you don't like white flaky things? Boom. Burn. Burn. Okay.

[15:13] So, we got some questions in from Sam, whose questions we ask answer some of last week. Can you run through any tips for excellent sauteed vegetables? What kind of sautéed vegetables do you like? Most. Most? Most? I was about to say. First tip, don't try to saute zucchini. Boom! Because that stuff sucks. If you want to, like, the best way to cook zucchini is to not cook it at all. Yeah, the yeah, that's that's my favorite cooking technique for zucchini. zucchini? I think if you hollow it out, keep it hollow it out and stuff it with ground beef, yeah. That's good. And then you roast it. Yeah. You don't sauté that sucker. You roast it. That sounds good. All right. Another way you can do it is if you, like, like, dehydrate that thing so that the water's out of it, like, cut it thin, par dehydrate that sucker. But then if you soak, if you saute it in too much oil, suck, it's going to absorb oil like a spizz nunge, and then it's going to suck. You know what I mean? So you have to like, uh, yeah, crush it. You know what? I'll talk sautéed because I know Nils is going to go crazy on sautéed vegetables. I'll save sautéed vegetables when we're talking to nils about the bone marrow because that'll be fun to engage him on some sautéed vegetable stuff. Also, people have different things like another one of the cooking issues posts like sauteing mushrooms, right? Everyone, like the old sort of, you know, I forget who it was, whether it was Robuchon or one of those guys, Gagnier, one of those dudes, one of those fancy, famous French dudes, was like, the ultimate would be to sauté a single mushroom at the time. Right? Because everyone's like, everyone was like, you know, look, if you saute the mushrooms, they're going to sweat and they're not going to get a nice crust. Bull crap. That's crap. What you want to do is you want to swamp those mushrooms when you're cooking

[16:57] them so that they get rid of their water and they're boiling the water out, getting rid of the

[17:01] water and not absorbing oil. If you saute mushrooms wide open in a pan, they get rid of the water, sure, but then they're still relatively porous from the water expelling when they start drying out and they soak up a lot more oil.

[17:15] Not that soaking up oil is bad, but most people don't want like a greasy, a greasy mushroom sponge. Do you want a greasy mushroom sponge? No, you don't. So, uh, what you do, you know, there is you sauté them in a huge, you know, huge amounts, they boil off all the water, and then after they start getting down to the bottom, then they can really color up without getting rid of any water at

[17:34] all and without absorbing that much oil because they've already densified, which is another trick.

[17:38] Vegetables that are porous, that you don't want to absorb too much oil, right? You want to get them fairly pre-densified before you do your saute on them because otherwise, they're going to absorb oil as

[17:49] you, as you saute them. But we'll talk to we'll talk more with nose as he comes in. Your 2nd question, though, is interesting because it's about something that Stas

[17:58] hates and then something that both Stas and I hate, and I hope all of you hate as well. Are beets not the tilapia of the vegetable world? Uh, what am I doing wrong or what's a good cooking method for for beats? And Stas, what are your thoughts on the beats? I don't like them. you know that. I do. Dave does not really like that. That's the only time I haven't seen you finish an entire. I'm not going to call out whose beats they were. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because that's not what's important here. I did have a I did have a say the way that they were served, though. It was like, pull it out of the ground. Right? Yeah. Wash it off. Yeah. oven for like 15 minutes. You know what I mean? And then like, and then like, quarters. Not a small beat. where they beats the size of like a supermarket radish? No. No. It was like a large, one of those large plastic baseballs. Like a wiffle ball. It was like in quarter wiffle balls. Quarter whiffle balls. No salt. No salt. No salt. And, uh, let me just say, there was not good. I've never seen you not finish it. I was like, man, well, here's the weird thing, because beats for me are like, beats for me. Like, I can deal with a crunchy beat and now Dante beat, but like soft on the outside and hard on the inside with that dirt flavor, which is what we're about to talk about, right?

[19:25] So, the problem with beats have several problems. But the main problem is that dirt, that dirt, earth, dirt, earth flavor. Actually, I like beets. I like pickled beets. Oh, yeah. And I like a fully roasted beet. And, uh, I like, uh, like apples soaked in beet juice. You know, those red old steakhouse apples. Jack, you know, I'm talking about the old? yeah, good, right? Anyways, I like all that stuff. Um, prefer, you know, all the pastry chefs prefer cane sugar. Did you know that? They say that the beet sugar, whatever, however they produce it. I don't know whether it's true or false, but they say that it's not as good for candy making. Could be horse crap. Probably is. Anyway, but that's not what I'm talking about. So, uh, the thing in beats that is probably off-putting to you other than the fact that it stains your hands if you're using the red ones.

[20:16] It's horrible stain in your hands, right? Yeah. Not as bad as turmeric. Which is, I made that last week at the house and I stained some stuff in my, you know, Jane was like, my wife was like, you weren't kidding. You stained our, you stained the cutting board. I was like, yes, I did. I was like, and whatever. And I did it at, did I talk about that already? I did a turmeric drink at the Montaleone, at the Tales of the Cocktail because all that room at the Montaleone was a rental. Do we talk about me almost getting arrested at Montaleone? No. Well, if we have time, we'll talk about me almost getting arrested at the Mona Leone. Okay, anyway, the chemical in-beats is J Osmin. It's the same chemical, which is apt why you say it, that grows in tilapia, or that's present in

[20:58] tilapia that makes it taste muddy and some catfish. However, in uh, when it comes in fish, it's the product of uh, bacteria that the, uh, it's a bacterial byproduct that they, that they eat produced by, uh, well, by bacteria, beets, it was not known until very recently whether or not beets produce their own Giasmin, or whether or not, uh, or is it

[21:20] Giasmin or Giasmin? Who cares? You guys know I can't pronounce anything. I wasn't known until recently whether beats produce it on their own, or whether there's bacteria that grow around beats, say it's causing it to have that flavor, but Lou,

[21:31] at all, in 2003, in the paper, biosynthetic origin of Jasmin and Red Beats, proved that

[21:37] it is produced indogenously, meaning that the beats actually produce their own jasmin. And here is the 1st clue for you on how to make beats not suck so dang hard. The Giasmin concentration is 6 times higher in the peel than in the pulp.

[21:53] So when you get rid of the skins, whether you well, if you're roasting, you're probably going to do it afterwards, right? But when you're getting rid of the skins, get rid of the skins. Don't just like take a little bit of layer off the outside, get rid of enough skin to get rid of most of the jasmine. Here's another thing. Do you think there's a reason why beets are often served in acidic sauces or in

[22:13] acidic pickles or things like that? You ever think about that, Stas? The reason is, is because J Osman breaks down in the presence of acidity, which is why you add it to tilapia.

[22:25] Well, it's just to add some flavor to that muddy piece of crap trash. But anyway, so Jasmin, if it's heated in acidity will break down. So acidity is going to help if you want to do like a post-finish with like a sauté in a in an acid kind of environment that should help. And also the acidity probably helps cover up the smell of that stanky earth thing. But the best beat I've ever had was made by

[22:50] a friend of mine, Mike Sharon, who is a chef out in Chicago. And I don't know whether it was originally his idea or an ideas and food idea or whatever, but he

[22:58] par dehydrated the beats, then sauce them, and then roasted them. And it had a kind of a chewy meaty texture. And that was the best damn beat I've ever had in my life. That's the 1st time in my life. I like beats, fine, you know, when they're prepared properly, not like quarter

[23:14] whiffle balls, you know, like flash, flash cooked quarter whiffle balls. But like, this was the 1st time where someone served me like a beat salad and I was like, holy crap, I could eat as much of this

[23:26] beet salad as they have in the house. Still waiting for that moment for me. Yeah, but you know, like, like, you know, you have to have eaten with me, but like, I get in these modes

[23:33] where, like, I go ape, ape listic on things, like, you know, I've been known to eat, like, I don't know,

[23:40] like 20 grapefruit. You know what I mean? It's like if I'm like, man, this grapefruit is delicious. Like, I can just keep eating it. And I felt that way about this beef salad. anyway. And one more quick question he has. We're going to go to the... We have caller? Yes. All right, caller, you were on the air. Hello, Dave. are you? Doing well. How you doing? Doing all right. This is Steve from Indiana, and Indianapolis. And I had a few quick questions for you about technology. Uh, one being the Vacmaster VP 112, uh, do you think it's worthwhile to, to purchase that if I'm not going to be doing retexturizations and

[24:15] things? I just want something that I can vacuum, uh, liquids with the meat or whatever in in sous vide cook at. How much does it cost? It was 509. I mean, it's a drive pump. Yeah. It just seems to me to be an in-between cost. You know what I mean? Like, I've never used it. Someday I'll get a hold of one and I'll use it. Herve that I, you know, who I used to work with at the French Culinary Institute. They sent the FCI one or the ICC, whatever they're called now. And, um, they sent him one and he seems to like it. I've never used it. I mean, by all accounts, it's better than the food saver, but it's just in that, for me, in that

[24:52] uncomfortable in between price zone. You know what I'm saying? Like. Yeah, but isn't it comfortable price on, like, 2500 for, like, a decent uh, like something that can actually pull 99% plus vacuum? Nah, closer to 15. I think if you get the if you get the right deal. I haven't shopped one in a long time, but you can get one, I think, with a decent pump for closer to

[25:11] 15. So in other words, it's like 99 bucks, 500 bucks or 1500 bucks. Like, those are your choices. And like, so for me, but maybe it's closer to two. I don't know. I have to look at, you know, it depends on what kind of deal you can get. And, you know, Philip Preston has a new one out, uh, new as of last year, but I still haven't tested it yet, um, that is not the mini pack that he also sells. I have a mini pack and I like it, the small mini pack. Um, but, you know, Philip Preston, uh, he released a, uh, I think a sub $1000 unit or one that's right around a 1000 bucks, but

[25:46] I have never used it. I don't know. The question is, why do you want it? If it's just for cooking, right, most things can be done in zips. If it's for preservation, then sure, fine. They're, you know, they're going to be fine. Like, why is it you specifically want a vacuum? Well, okay. So, um, I got uh, one of the Sandsayer uh, emersion circulators. I used to work at a kitchen shop. Uh, and so I got a, I, I pretty much abused my discount there and got a bunch of kitchen gadgets.

[26:16] Um, and now I'm going into medical school. So I really want something that I can have in the fridge. Uh just ready to go and drop into a bath. Additionally, um, my brother and my dad had some of the food that I had cooked, like I did

[26:31] 48, or 48, 72 hour short ribs, spare ribs that I, you know, then grilled and things like that, and they were just fascinated by how convenient it was.

[26:39] But when I went over to my dad's house, I got him one, uh, Sanser, he was, uh, cooking, uh, like each steak in like a cup and a half of oil. And so I really want to, like, I want to get him something that I

[26:53] could just give him the meat and have him drop it in and not waste, like, I think he went through

[27:00] a, a half liter of oil that day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, people tend to overestimate how much oil you need in a zippy by like a good amount. Like you need... Yeah. You only need enough to make up the bench. What are you saying? I told him about the wash. Well, I showed them water submersion technique and he still did the, like, massive amounts of oil, but go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, no, I'm saying, like, you know, one thing to do is cut down, but in the end, those circumstances, I've heard that

[27:25] that, that, that, that VP, whatever it is, works fine. Um, I've never had any personal experience with it. But I, you know, as a kind of a mid-range vacuum. I hear it's a lot better than the food saver. let's put it that way Okay. But I don't, like, I can't, you know, I won't recommend anything I haven't used personally. Do you know what I'm saying? But if I'm going to eventually upgrade to something that I can actually do retexturizations and things like that, infusions, whatever, I might as well just go all the way. Yeah, or you could get this one and then give it to your dad. Yeah, that's true. That's true. You know, cut your teeth on this one and then give it to your dad when, you know, or I mean, I don't know. I don't know what your budgets are, but, you know, what I find in life is that if I really want a piece of

[28:10] equipment, and then I buy the lesser version of that piece of equipment, I'm never

[28:14] happy, and I end up always, I always, always end up getting the good one in the end. And then the question is, will you be kicking yourself for having also purchased a lesser one? That's what you have to tell yourself. If you're anything like me, that's what will happen to you. That makes sense, yeah. Oh, okay, okay. you have a little bit more time. Sorry. Sure. Okay. I was looking into cryomilling techniques because my girlfriend's gluten free, you know, they're trying to figure out ways to do super fine flowers without spending an arm, you know, like, uh,

[28:43] they costing an arm and alike. And so, uh, I don't in Indianapolis. It's very hard to source liquid nitrogen. Uh, I'm a chemist and I have access to doors and things like that. So that's fine, but sourcing the actual liquid nitrogen and not stealing it from

[28:56] work is another, uh, is another, uh, situation. So, um, can I do the same thing with dry ice or am I going to run into a problem with the moisture content actually contained in dry ice? Well, I mean, the problem with dry ice as opposed to liquid nitrogen is that, you know, it's not very good at contact, uh, you know, because you can't just submerge something in dry ice. You know what I'm saying? So you can get the stuff cold by putting it in a box, but then you have the additional problem of you, you tend to get a lot of condensation unless the dry ice is,

[29:29] unless, unless you're storing something in a box with desiccant and then throwing a chunk of dry ice in and then letting it chill all the way down and

[29:36] then, and then milling it, you tend to get a lot of condensation from the air onto anything that's freezing that hard that's not

[29:42] submerged. Do you know what I'm saying? Um, which is one of the reasons why I don't really like using dry ice, even for like distillation runs, because I tend to condense a lot of stuff out of the air, whereas liquid nitrogen ends up being pretty clean for me that

[29:55] way, uh, because you can do total submersion. But my real question is, is, where are you trying to, like, why is it hard to source where you are? Because that's something of general interest to me, is ease or lack of ease of sourcing liquid nitrogen. You tried, the welding shops won't won't help you out. I actually, uh, don't know, I guess I don't know where to

[30:15] start. Like, I looked online and I typed in, uh, liquid nitrogen Indianapolis, whatever. I mean, that's probably not a good way to do it. Yeah, no. And I was looking for, for food, great, dry

[30:25] ice because, uh, actually at work, uh, when we, when I used dry ice on my cold finger, my wrote a app, uh, there's just a bunch of stuff left behind, so you definitely need, like, I mean, I think that, that dry ice is kind of an exception.

[30:37] Uh, liquid nitrogen, I think, is pretty pure, uh, regardless from a welding shop, but I, I just,

[30:43] um, yeah, I need to, I need to go and and investigate a little further, I think. Yeah, welding shop. welding shop. And by the way, like, so, you know, the classic dry ice, um, dry ice acetone bath for roto vaps, I don't particularly like them because, um, especially in the kind of work that I'm doing, there's a lot

[31:07] of, uh, water phase in the, in the stuff that I'm distilling. And, um, the dry ice is so cold that unless I suck a partial vacuum before I chill down the cold finger, I get massive amounts of condensation in,

[31:21] because the that the bukee cold finger is designed, the vacuum takeoff line is right next to the

[31:26] condenser finger. And so it, unless you have a, unless, if you chill it before you suck a vacuum,

[31:33] I get a lot of crystallization in the, into takeoff from my back line, and then I occlude my vacuum. And then once that happens, all hell breaks loose with your distillation, and it's very hard to get back on track without losing flavor. If you're doing it for food, not for lab work. You know what I mean? Right, right. And so liquid nitrogen, because it is actually somewhat less powerful, even though it's a lot colder than dry

[31:57] ice. I find to be easier. And if I make a mistake, I can rectify it quickly and it's just not as messy. I've never, I've never liked working with dry ice in my roto app. very much. But yeah, so I would go to a welding shop and the secret is that, you know, at least around

[32:15] here, the welding shops also sell to medical places. So they have, you know, theoretically, for instance, they have different grades of nitrous. So like my local welding shop sells nitrous to doctors. And a lot of it isn't really the purity of the supplied gas. It's the care with which they purge the tanks and make sure that the lines that they use for transfer aren't contaminated with things like oils or

[32:38] other nasty things. Okay. So a lot of these guys will supply hospitals and clinics and things like this. And so, you know, I wouldn't worry. I wouldn't worry overly much and every single chef in New York City gets from one of 2 welding shops. McKinney or T.W. Smith, one of those 2 that I know of. Excellent. Oh, I'll check into it, and if I hear anything about where you can get good liquid action in Indianapolis, I'll, I'll tweet it to you or something so

[33:06] that, so, so that people, other people who listen to you in Indianapolis can know. Cool. Um, and and the last thing is, you said that you were a homebrewer on point. Oh, a long time ago, yeah. Did you ever do water adjustments? Uh, what do you mean? So like you would start with RO water and then you would want to adjust based on... Oh, no, like burton salts and stuff like that? No, I mean, uh, like, uh, most of the stuff, most experiments that I was doing, uh, I was, you know, I kind of drew a base level of what I was

[33:39] gonna, like, deal with. And so like I, um, my assumption was New York City tap water. And then, um, I was working mainly on, um, on, uh, mash temperatures, times, and, um,

[33:52] and like, you know, the, the, the grain bill that went into it and, you know, messing with OG and yeast and things like that. I never, I never got to the point where I was messing with the, uh, with like the salts and the chemistry of the, of the water. I was just using filtered, you know, obviously dechlorinated, filtered New York City tap. But I never I never deionized it or removed. It's fair. Our water is very, very soft here. Um, so, you know, maybe it maybe it wasn't ideal. I don't know. But then, you know, that would have been something I probably would eventually have gotten into, but

[34:23] I, you know, but when my 2nd son, Dax, was born, it was just like, you know, it was just too much to obliterate the house because I was doing all grain stuff and it really wipes an apartment

[34:33] out. I was in a very small apartment at the time. Really makes a mess in the apartment. Well, and see, I have I have half a garage that I have for brewing equipment and it feels like the entire half a garage. So yeah, I completely understand. Okay, I was just curious, if you ever heard of anybody using modern assaults in it, like the calcium lactate and calcium

[34:51] lactate glucinate instead of the calcium chloride that people are using, but... someone, uh, you know, call or tweet in and we'll, uh, we'll talk about it, even though it's a little outside of my depth. Excellent Sounds great. Thanks, Dave. All righty. Talk you soon. Bye bye. All right, let's go to our 1st commercial break back with Nils Norin.

[36:17] The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hams are aged perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire

[36:41] pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marble and contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit edwardsvam.com. Jack, that's like the music from like when, like, the couple in that like, in that like, kind of southern country show, like they're just about to get together. They're headed towards the barn with nothing kind of raunchy's happening yet. That's what that music is. The prelove music? Yeah. It's the country western TV, like movie pre-love music. Let me give you a shout out. That's a band called The Hollows. They're local. They're friends of the network. And all the music we play here is local and, you know, source from friends. So if you're a listener of the show and you have a band or music project, email us and submit your music. especially if you need some pre-love. Because that's going to seal the deal. If, look, if you have a barn within about like a 200 meter radius of you with like a

[37:37] hay loft, like that's the music to crank. You know what I mean? It's gonna happen. That's the that's the reignition of being near a barn. Isn't it doesn't it hurt in hay, though? I don't know. I didn't want to get that, you know. I'm going to guess, yes. I mean, I'm sure there are different qualities of hay. Probably. But it's it's the proverbial role in the hay. That's where you're hiding away from the, the, the, the farmer. Definitely dad. Well, presumably, you know, back in the day, we're talking stereotypes. All right. So do we have do we have nils? Yeah we do. All right. Nils. Hey, how you doing? Going well. So this is Nils Norin. Uh, you know, to, uh, did, uh, some of my best work with Mils

[38:28] Norn now, uh, running, uh, the, uh, Marcus Samuelson Restaurant Group. Is that your official title, running the Marcus Samuelsson restaurant group? What's your official title over there? Yeah, official title? VP of Restaurant Operations. Yeah. And so how many restaurants did you open this week? That was the question we had earlier. I don't, but this week, but uh, this month, but uh, three. For real? Yeah. How many different countries? Uh, two. Okay, well, no, actually, actually three. Bermuda, Sweden and Norway. So. Oh, which one weren't you counting before? Norway. Norway. Norway. Oh, Norway. But, you know, for those of you that, I don't know, you know, Nils is a Swede, so they have that

[39:20] Swedish Norwegian stuff. Give me, give me, give me the Norwegian pronunciation of Mirvold. Uh, Mirvold? Yeah. Oh man. All right. So, no, I'm going to read this question and then we're going to talk about it. And then afterwards we'll talk a little bit about sautéed vegetables because I know you're very opinionated about the sautéed vegetables as well. Here's the question from Justin. I have a question about bone marrow specifically regarding preparation for service. I've just taken charge of the kitchen following the resignation of our executive

[39:50] chef resignation, huh? Yeah, yeah, whatever. Nils, we know how that goes, right? Okay. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the resignation of our executive chef and have been tasked with creating a bar menu. I want to include roasted marrow bones, but don't have a ton of experience with them, and neither do I. That's why we're calling nils. Now, Nils, your big prep used to serve a lot where you would like slow braise them out and then use the fat

[40:13] and things, right? That was your favorite thing to do. Yeah. She is delicious. Yeah. I forget what you used to mix it in with when you were done. Oh, tons of things. Uh, I mean, boneberry, I mean, puree is delicious. Yeah, but yeah, it was, what was it? It wasn't the celery root, was it? What you used to add it to? No, is it sun choke? Sun choke and bone mural. Yeah. You know, this is hilarious. Nastasia and Piper back in Piper was working with us. They did a slow cook on sun chokes and ate all of the sun chokes, slow, quickly cooked. They only cooked it for like 15 minutes and they ate like half a pound each. How hilarious is their gastrointestinal distress. Yeah, that's not the great idea. Yes, and those would like render out the marrow. Now I remember it. He would submerge the sun chokes and cook them low and slow long time to turn the stuff into

[41:04] Inulin so that it's not a huge fart bomb, but, you know, Stas never asked me before she cooked the stuff out, whatever. And then, Nils, I don't know if I told you this. But she then did the same thing on purpose and served it to a friend and his girlfriend at a

[41:17] picnic and she and Piper did not eat it and just watched them eat all the sunchokes while they ate around them. They did a beef and sun choke, like cold picnic salad and did it to them and didn't warn them. I think that's kind of not cool. What do you think? So I guess too much friends anymore. No they are. Yeah, I mean, they're also kind of low quality people. So anyway. Okay. So, uh, uh, anyway, uh, so we're back to the bone marrow question. I follow the general rule of soaking the bone marrow in the bones in cold salt water with multiple water changes, but most

[41:50] recipes. I've found, and do you agree with that? The multiple soak? Yeah, I mean, you just want to get the blood off, right? Because it's gross. That's why. Yeah. But, you know, like, how long do you have to do it to get them, like, really creamy? To get them to roast them? No, no, no, to get all the blood out. Like, how long do you usually let them? I mean, I don't know. A couple of hours usually is enough. Yeah. That's what I figure. But most recipes I found suggest roasting the bones for around 20 minutes at 450 in the Fahrenheit, which

[42:21] is, what is that? That's like 220 or something like that. Yeah. However, I need a much quicker pickup. Is this something I can safely par cook with good results or do you know any techniques for a faster pickup? I'm planning on using 3 inch bones, split lengthwise, and I would like to be able to send them out under 10 minutes. I do have a circulator and I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of my sears all, thanks for all you do. Keep it coming. I mean, I would probably pop them, separate them, use it. Are you a believer in like bones for plating versus the bones they come in or would you leave them in the bones? where you pop them out and then cook them separately and then lay them in the bones for service? No, I would keep him in the bones. Why add an extra step? You don't need to. That's true. That's true. So what would you do for the park hook? I was just thinking, because the bones, you can't really vac up that kind of a bone down because they're so porous, you know what I mean? Or would you just keep them in like a CVAP? What would you do for park cooking on that thing? So, if it would do that rooster, which I haven't seen that, I would keep them next to my fried chicken in the C-Lab, and

[43:23] then, and I think they're going to be perfect. That's what, 140? And then put them in the salamander or your, your turbo, uh,

[43:32] torch, uh, or if you do me a Ziploc bag, in, in the circulator, that probably works well too. And you just use them in some rendered, in some rendered, keep, keep the marrow and rendered marrow and just reuse it a bunch. Yeah, I mean, keep the put the whole bone, right? Right. Figure out what the right temperature is, which I'm not sure. But if you're going to do it next to the chicken. What do you keep your chicken at 60? Yeah, yeah. A little over. That's like, what does it keep us? Oh, you keep it at the cook temperature? Yeah, okay. So you hot hold it at the cook temperature. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, yeah, but that's going to be fine. It's not gonna, I don't think it's gonna break the structure down at those temperatures. I think you have to get it hotter to break the structure down, don't you? Yeah, I do Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to hold. I think it's going to be fine. And then like a quick flash off with the hottest thing that you own, and I think it's going to be good. It won't have the look of a roasted bone on the outside, though, just on the top where you sear it off. You think that's a problem or no? No, I don't, no, I mean, you could. I mean, no, I think it's fine if you do it on the top. What does it matter? What does the other gross thing do? Well, it smells good. Yeah, it also depends on how clean you've gotten the bone beforehand. You know what I mean? Like, so, like, you can do a worse job cleaning the bone if you're going to roast the hell out of

[44:58] it, because no one minds a little piece of, like, like, skin or

[45:01] a silver skin or meat stuck to a bone that's, if it's roasted to hell, but nobody wants, like, a

[45:07] blonde looking piece of junk stuck to the outside of their bone. You know what I mean? No that's true. So you clean, you gotta clean it. Yeah, but it's between it, but your pickup is from this house. Oh, you're right. Two minutes and it's up. Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, for something like that, like hopefully you have like a deck broiler or a Sally. I think a Sally is good because you're not worried about overcooking it so much. And so like even better than a searsal or something like that, I think is going to be... I mean, I don't think it's going to bleed out too much on a sally if you have it right in the sweet spot. Sears all work, obviously. But I don't think it's going to bleed out too much in a Sally. You know what I mean? No I don't think so. I think you'd be fine. And, uh, all right, so then, uh, and it probably a bone, I'm looking at my hands at the bone

[45:50] with, I think it'll probably be ready to serve within, like, 40 minutes, 40 minutes. you think? Yeah, yeah. I mean, but you might as well put it in an hour before because nothing's going to

[46:06] happen. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I'm saying like minimum 40 minutes, I would say. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Because, remember, it's only cooking through the one side because it's not going to heat up that fast through the bone, but I think once it's in there, it could stay in there like probably all of service. I mean, I've never done it, but I think I could probably stay in there all of service. I would bet it, Kevin. Yeah. The only thing I'd be worried about is if you cool it and reheat it, it might get like oxidized. I wouldn't necessarily do that unless it's in a bag enclosed. But, um, yeah, but whatever. I think it would work. Um, You know what I like on my bone marrow? I like parsley. on my bone marrow. You like chopped up parsley on your bone marrow? Nails. Parcel is delicious. And yeah, and I also like a little bit of lemon zest, but that's me. Okay. So then we had another question. Can you run through any tips for excellent sauteed vegetables? And our 1st tip was don't sauté zucchini. Yeah, because it's horrible. Yeah. I mean, the only way you're gonna do it, if you gorge them, right? Take some of the, the, uh, water out of it. Right. Then they can be okay. Yeah, yeah. But let me ask you this. If you could have a sauteed carrot or a sauteed, uh, or a sauteed piece of zucchini, would you ever choose a zucchini? Nope. No, you wouldn't. I mean, it's like straight up. You know, I think, look, I think by and large, you know, we already talked about, uh, you know, before you were

[47:41] wrong, we talked about, you know, what we used to do with the with the mushrooms. Mushrooms are a special case because they're not a veg, they're not a vegetable, they're a fungus. They break down differently, so they maintain their structure even over a long cooking period, which is why you can cook them nicely in a

[47:58] saute without them losing structure and you can get a nice crust on the outside and you can get the water balance right. Very difficult to do this with spongy vegetables in general, right? When you say so, Nils, like zucchini, eggplant. That's why carrots works great. Yeah, that's the king that doesn't. No, no. I mean, but like also like, I'm not a huge fan of like a sauteed eggplant. You? No, the only way I like my eggplant, if they're really cooked through. If they're not cooked soon, it tastes like a tea to me. I'm

[48:33] not talking about hay before. That's not in a good way. Tastes like a what? Your phone fuzzed for a second. Yeah, but it's just it's like, hey, you still not cooked through. So again, if you want to gorge them. Yeah, or like we used to do in the vacuum or like people who microwave them, but the issue is, is the water con, see, zucchini and eggplant both suffer from the problem, like a

[48:58] two-part problem. They're spongy, like right out of the gate, they're spongy. So they're going to absorb oil. And then most people, when they're sauteing, they're so worried about the temperature dropping too

[49:08] low that they overheat the oil and the oil takes on those fishy burnt aromas, which I hate,

[49:13] right? Like unless you're doing wok cooking and you like really do it right, like the overcooked oil on a

[49:18] saute, I think, smells nasty. What do you think, Nose? Well, yeah, I think you know what I think. Yeah, right. I couldn't agree more. That's why we, you know, we didn't used to do a lot of zucchini or eggplants. Right, right. So it's spongy to get go. And then also, anything that's not sponge is water. So it's like, you can't win. You know what I mean? Like, they have very little structure. So, I mean, I think those things are much better. All those things are much better roasted, where you can sit there and let

[49:48] the like vapor, although not zucchini, but eggplant, better, you know, let all the water get out of it or whatever. But those are my tips. Choose the right vegetables. Do you have any like big tips for like sautéing? I think like if you're sautéing a carrot, Just don't do don't do a bad job. You know, I think it's like the big tip. I always cheat. I always throw a little bit of water in, uh, I always cheat, throw the water in the pan, let

[50:12] it let it flash off par cook and then sauté after the water evaporates, but is that considered

[50:16] like a jerks technique? I mean, in a restaurant, you wouldn't do that, but I mean at home. No, I mean, you can. Or, you just sit in until you have the right color, then you finishing

[50:28] up them in the oven. No, yeah, they could do that too. That's probably better because you're not absorbing any water. You probably keep them more dense. I mean, you know, you probably keep them more, you get, get a more dense flavor. Sauté them for color and then finish them in a not too hot oven, like 350 or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm just throw the pan in the oven, right? Just sauté it till you get the color you like throw the pan in the oven and walk away. Just beware that you might take a while for it to finish off in the oven. Yeah, it might, depending how big they are. It's going to be fine on that, though. You can't, then you can park with them and finishing off later. Yeah, yeah. That's a good point. All right. So, uh, I think uh, Jack's gonna kick us off the off the radio pretty soon. I have a couple of questions. By the way, Eric Michael Morris wrote in last week about sugar-free gelato. didn't didn't clarify what he wants, so he can't answer that. And then the rest of the stuff we can get to next time. anything good going on, Nils, in the cooking world? Come up with any new flavors, new ideas you want to talk about on the radio show? Uh, Nothing that comes to mind, yes. I'm gonna have some soon, though. I'm actually working on some stuff, but it's too, too early. Yeah? Disclosed. All right. Well, why don't you come back in person sometime, hang out on the radio show. You ever, you ever uh, free on the Tuesdays around 12? Yeah, for sure. All right, cool. And Jack, by the way, tells me that we might be switching our times next season, wherever a season is. I have no idea what a season is. But, uh, we might be switching our times up a little bit, but nil, thanks for coming and answering all of our bone marrow questions. We'll see y'all next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.