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[1:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Burst Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every 12, 30, 12, what

[1:43] are we? 1210? Lets say we start at 1210. I know, no. We have to say 12. Let's make it 12. All right. You know, listen, peoples. It is true that I leave my house late, but it's because I'm hard at work on the questions that you guys have submitted. But for some reason, I always seem to think that I can make it a little bit faster than I can. Today, I didn't stop, but my bike had the same problem. I took my tire off, my and my tube, no leaks. It's the Schrader valve. That's right, bike people. I'm an American. I use Schrader valves, not these Europretentious pressed as some guns that you guys, you bike enthusiasts favor. I was like, I don't know, I mean, I don't even know. You a bike rider. But you use... I don't bike the way you do. is that supposed to mean? Like, you go, like, car speed, like, anger, you know. Well, that's the reason I like biking. I like biking because you can, if you were to go all out on the street, like walking or running with like an angry look on your

[2:44] face, like all your stuff on your back, in your work clothes, people would. They would think that you were, they would call the cops. They would think you were crazy. If you're in your work clothes. And you're going a 1000000000 miles an hour on a bicycle with all your stuff, people might think that you're a weirdo, but they're not going to call the cops and be like,

[3:03] they're crazy bikers. But that's about it. I can deal with that. Can't do it in your car either. No, like bike is the only place that you can really get your kind of New York. There's too many damn people here rage out. You know, my wife, my wife was like, I was complaining to my wife. She like, Dave, you're, you know, you're becoming a crotchy old jerk in your, in your old age. Uh, because you know how they have the bike weekends in in Manhattan, where they like turn... Yeah, they turn like Lafayette and like stretches of like real streets into bike, bike, and like, what was that thing? Rollerblading? It's for summer streets, is it? Yeah, yeah. It's the worst time to bike. It is the absolute worst time to bike. It's like families riding like 4 abreast at like 2 miles an hour. And I'm like, brothers, sisters. I've got fantastically expensive tomatoes in my bag. I build a special support structure for my bag when I'm going to carry tomatoes and then I line said support because you don't want the bag crushing in on it, right? So I basically turn it into a hard box on my back that I then line

[4:07] with, with tablecloths that are fluffed up. Then I lay the tomatoes carefully in. And then I stand on my bike the entire way home to provide the extra shock absorbing power of

[4:18] my legs. And unlike my normal riding posture, which is kind of forward leaning angry, I'm riding fully erect, like some sort of a Dutch person.

[4:28] And, uh, And I'm hindered by these people, like, all of a sudden, like making me, like, slam on the brakes. Like, I'm just trying to get my tomatoes home. I'm not having fun. This is not fun. I'm not out here. Like, you know what? It's like no one drives anymore. Just, hey, I'm going to take a leisurely drive out in the mountains. He's not here. You know what I mean? You're riding fully erect. You know, you know, listen, gooey duck face. Like, uh, you know, you love the innuendo on the show, but I mean, I'm just trying to, you know, you're making us all picture this. I'm just trying to get straight. whatever. Uh, calling your questions two. 718-4972128 That's 718-497-2128, so we can hear your cooking or other questions here live on the cooking issues radio program or

[5:14] joined, as usual, with Jack in the engineering booth. You've already heard from Nastasia Hammer Lopez, but we've already got, we've also got Eliza, Eliza, right? Eliza from, by the way, Double Duty, lady, does Mofad work as well. You did one or 2 of the puffing guns, right? And you also did the, uh... You only did the round tables. You never came to the puffing gun. Maker fair. Yeah, the round tables, by the way, they're fun. You done all, we did 2 or three, three. did three, right? I did three. I did two. Did Tim? yeah Which ones? The 1st and the second. So that would be GMOs. GMOs and soda. Oh, soda. soda is a good one. So, you know, I really, whatever the last one was, I'm trying to remember what it was. It was good. Oh, big business. Big business and food. Business, food. Big business, spin and cheese. All right, so we got, you know, that'd be, that'd be better. Like, that's how you, like, as much as I listen to, like, all the old school rap stuff. Now how much I love it. Like, the older I get, I've had this discussion on the earth. Man, I won't go too deep into it, but pimping, being a pimp is disgusting. It's like freaking vile. It's like the worst thing you can do is to be a pimp. And yet, you know, how many years of, you know, you walk around and be like, big pimp, spin and cheese. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's ridiculous. Like women will walk around. Using the word pimp, like, it's okay. What do you think about this, Jack? not okay. Pimping, pimping not okay. Pimping not okay. Yeah, yeah. Pimping ain't easy? Like being hoard out, not easy. Yeah, really. Where did you get to that? What? Oh, because you said big business. And then I said big, big business spending cheese, like on BLADs up in NYC, which, you know, I don't think that's his finest

[6:54] song, by the way. No. No. 99 problems. Also, questionable, but like amazing song. 99 problems, amazing song. Anyways. Stas is more up on the Beyonce breakup, the potential Beyonce breakup. You watch that stuff, Constantly Stas. The Beyonce breakup or your mom hasn't called you about that yet? Guys. All right, food, food, food. We're better than this. Better than better than Beyonce? I highly doubt it. Yes. What about early Beyonce? What about Destiny's Child Beyonce? I don't know about that. We have 9 questions. All right, jeez. 99 questions. Beyoncé one. Oh, boom. Boom. Dear Dave Anastasia. This is from Mark spelled CK. I like the CK. It's not like Mark with a C, not Mark with a K. You got both. You can afford both of those letters at the end of your name. Mark. Uh, like Merc index, right? isn't that how they spell it? Mark? Anyways. When I make sauces slash soups in a blender, and there are onions in there. I get a weird metallic slash. I'm using the slash, whatever. Metallic slash bitter taste. It's like the taste you get when you chop onions in a food processor. I forgot about it, but then I tasted the same thing in a restaurant. On the internets. I found that tomato seeds might be the problem. Can you tell me why that why that happens, and is there anything one can do about it? Kind regards, Mark. Well, in typical mental tangent form, this

[8:16] should just show you, people. I want you guys to know this. that the tangents don't just happen when I'm here talking, the tangents happen when I'm literally reading your question because reading it aloud, I just

[8:29] realize I, uh, um, didn't see the tomato seed. thing. I only saw the 1st portion of your question. And so that's all I can respond to because it is something that I know that chopping onions with, for instance, carbon steel blades. And we've talked about this on a show. I think it was a couple years ago, that when you when you chop onions with carbon, steel, knives, you get this kind of horrendous, metallic taste. And the reason is well-known fact, well-known, that, um, it's a well-known fact that, uh,

[9:00] alliums, onion, uh, being an allium, uh, have lots of things that react with, uh, iron and other metallic, uh, they form complexes with iron and other metals. Which is why, and I think we talked about this. Remember they sell those deodorizers, some guns, those stainless steel hand deodorizer things. don't think they sell them anymore because I don't think they really work because those are made of stainless steel. Stainless steel not nearly as effective at complexing with allium compounds as good old-fashioned carbon steel because it's been passivated

[9:31] with it, you know, an anticrosion layer on the front. But this is why I was saying that like, if you're trying to get onion smell off of your hands, things like steel wool, things that rust might be a

[9:40] good, a good thing to try. Um, I think that's what I said. It's been a couple of years since we did. Anyways. Uh, so my assumption is, is that you're getting some sort of a uh, thing of a crap with the, um, with the carbon steel, uh, and by the way, you know, there are lots of

[9:57] things. I don't know whether this is related to the flavor, but because alliums, onions, garlic, all these are extremely complex. Uh, and so, you know, one of the things that provides that kind of off color is a, um, a series of uh, of pigments called uh,

[10:11] anthosanthins, not anthocyanins, anthosanthins. And they're also things that make potatoes turn dark when you cut them. You know, when you cut a potato, and you don't soak it in water because you're a low quality person, and you let it sit out there and it turns like pink and then

[10:26] brown, and then that brown color doesn't go away when you cook it. So when anyone ever looks at your potato, they can be, oh, this person is a jerk. They don't care about the food. They serving me. They don't care about quality and they can't observe day-to-day things and they don't learn from existence. You know what I'm saying? I mean, it's okay if I saw that at someone's house and be like, wow. So you've never cooked a potato before. You know what I mean? Like, because, like, it's obvious. Jack, you sliced a potato, am I right? I mean, yeah. Not well, but. Well, I mean, look, there's, it's one thing to have bad knife skills. This is entirely acceptable. It's another thing to not notice that potatoes turn into crap when you let them sit out. When they're cut. Whatever. Yeah, duh. Uh, sunny news. So, uh, tomato seeds, the only thing I could think of offhand, and this is probably wrong because I think of hand, maybe you could search. You want to search some tomato seas? Um, is that the uh, increased acidity is uh, causing more reaction with the uh, with the blades,

[11:24] because uh, my feeling is, is that a lot of those blades are made out of like 304, which is, you know, slightly

[11:30] rustible uh, I think they're not really made of really high quality. You'd think they'd be made of some sort of like wizard steel, but they're not. I think they're mainly made out of 316 and 304. But I don't know. look into it, Mark. Anyway, now we got a follow-up question. EMM wrote in a while back on making sugar-free ice cream. And what I said was, why do you want be sugar-free? Do you want it to taste sugar-free? or do you merely want it to be sugar-free? and for what reason do you want it to be sugar-free? Well, okay. So he or she wrote back because I can't remember and EMM is completely genderless, right? Unless it's Emma, which is not Emma. EMM. All capitals. Thanks for addressing my question on the air. The reason I asked is once or twice a week. I get requests for sugar-free desserts, mostly from diabetics styles. Can you do a Wilfred Brimley invitation? No. No? Will for Brimley, anyone, Jack? Will for Brimley? Nope. You know what I'm talking about, though. I don't. I'm Will for Brimley, and I got diabetes. He's the guy who he's like the spokesperson. Yeah, no, I know the commercial. Yeah, he's he's like the spokesperson for like taking care of your diabetes, but he doesn't pronounce it diabetes. He pronounced it diabetes. With the mustache. Yeah, with a giant mustache. Wilver Brimley and I've got diabetes, Bittes. And so, like, we used to walk around, like, we still do it. Booker and Daxon once in a while I just go, Bittis, Bittis, because like, I forget who it was. It wasn't Nick. It was someone I know. Oh, Leo Robachek from Nomad. We were hanging around at Nomad and EMP and, you know, fantastic bar man. Like, he got served a drink once. I had way too much sugar at Tales of the Cocktail, just tasting and

[13:06] goes, diabetes. And that's all he said. That is diabetes. That's what he said, anyway. I'm not sure about, okay, wait. I know having a pan of sugar-free gelato would not sell much out of the display case, but we offer catering gallon sizes. I'd like to see someone tuck into a gallon sized container of gelato. rough, man. Think about that. A gallon. A gallon. That would be, that's not, that's not 4 pints. That's 4 freaking quarts. That's 8 pint containers of ice cream, folks. That is a boat ton of ice cream. Let me tell you something, people with diabetes ordering this catering size gallon of ice cream. You do not have the ability as an individual human being to consume a gallon of ice cream before it goes bad. you do, you got issues. If it's for a party? That's fine. I'm just saying it's a lot of ice cream. People, I think... What? So I could take down a half gallon. Before it goes bad? Yeah, that thing is fine. I think the maximum quantity of ice cream you should buy is probably a half gallon for home use in a normal situation because you want to store ice cream in your freezer as little as possible. Most home freezers, like they open and close a lot and they go through defrost cycles and all these kinds of

[14:15] things so that they're not good for the long-term storage of ice cream. You know, plus people put things that aren't frozen in them, which drops the temperature of the freezer, and then you get recrystallization problems. And so, I mean, you can always get incredibly highly stabilized ice cream. Like, did you guys notice recently that Briars ice cream past like 5 years has started putting stabilizers in their ice cream? Because everyone realized that Briars was good if you live right near Philadelphia and you could get the

[14:36] Briars, like, right when it was made? And then like, a week later, it sucked and once you opened it in your fridge, it turned into like Briars ice crystals instead of Briars ice cream. And so back when I was a kid, they used to have advertisements like little kids with lisps. I don't know why people think that like kids with lisps are like the, you know, the Cinequan non of purity in Americana, but they were like, this kid's reading off like nothing wrong with

[14:58] lisps. I'm just saying, like, why it has to be. It always has to be. It came with a lisp. know what I mean? And, uh, and so he's reading off the ingredients, he can pronounce them, and then he's reading off the ingredients, another ice cream, and he's like,

[15:07] kamik. I don't remember exactly, but it's like reading off like Carragin and Aguaro scrap and like Briars doesn't have any of this stuff. And secretly, they added all that crap to it because you know what? It makes the ice cream better. anyway, that's not what we're talking about. Okay, I'm not sure about diabetics and the sugar is naturally found in fruit. I did a quick search and red on the American diabetes association website that, yes, diabetics should eat fruit, but do not specify how much or what kinds are safe slash not safe. I guess I would like to accommodate these requests one day with an artificially sweetened vanilla flavor, not using our Madagascar vanilla

[15:36] extract as sugar is an ingredient, or maybe chocolate. Some information. We use a Carpagani, LB202. I've never used that one. I used a smaller, the LB 100 batch freezer, pre-gel base, and stabilizers, whole milk,

[15:48] sugar, and corn syrup, plus as many local fruits as we can get our hands on throughout the seasons.

[15:52] Thanks again. Cheers, EMM. Okay, look it. First of all, uh, I think a lot depends on a lot depends on who you're dealing with, right? So, like, an actual, like, person who

[16:08] is, like, diabetic who knows about, you know, what's going on is not gonna, if you eat fruit, PS, you're eating sugar. Duh, right? And fruits have all of the same sugars in them that we normally associate with sugary things. So they have fructose. They have glucose, and they also have sucrose in them, right? It's just the question of how much. So, like, someone who has, like, the trick with diabetes, and I don't really know that much because, you know, I don't have anyone in my family, it's diabetic, and I'm not diabetic. But as far as I can tell, the trick isn't eliminating all sugar, the trick is managing the amount of sugar you get so that you don't have a spike in your blood sugar level, which is

[16:46] why people focus on the glycemic index of certain foods, including carbohydrates. What can spike your blood sugar levels of glucose quickly or what causes it to spike because that's what's going to cause problems for diabetics? That's it. Uh, so, so for instance, you could uh, up the fructose, which is sweeter than sucrose, right? And also had, not only is it sweeter than glucose, sucrose, rather, but it also has a lower glycemic index. So you can radically lower the glycemic index of something like an ice cream by sweetening it primarily with fructose as opposed to sucrose. Um, and we'll go into that in a second. But the point is that you can do that. Now the flip side of that is, is that you can't, no one writes,

[17:32] like no one writes on on a, uh, on a label, right?

[17:37] This food has a glycemic index of 23. You know what I mean? Like no one writes that on it. Instead, they just write sugar free or whatever. And so, and then like someone who actually cares about this stuff has to base their their information on whether something is sugar free. So you could have an ice cream that would be fine for someone who has diabetes to have a moderate amount

[17:56] of, not a gallon. But, you know, a moderate amount of that is flavored with fructose, but then you couldn't write sugar-free on it. You could write sucrose free, right? That's kind of weasly, right? So then what people do, uh, other, when they don't do that is they'll add a texturizing agent and then they'll add some sort of fake

[18:17] sugar, like Splenda. You know, it's like also you say you can't use the real vanilla because it's got sugar in it, even though you're using probably a fairly small amount of that vanilla, right?

[18:26] And it contains, it's not, I would guess it's not the main amount of sugar that's in your

[18:31] recipe. coming from the vanilla. I bet you don't have to alter the sugar balance of your recipe that much based on the vanilla you're using. I could be wrong because I don't know the vanilla that you're using. My point is that you run into a situation a lot where in order to do the right thing by a customer, you have to do the wrong thing by a customer. In order to try and help the customer by giving something that they can enjoy, you have to actually ruin it by turning it into

[18:53] crap, by using ingredients that are bad, even though there could be some sort of middle base thing that they could, you know, have instead. So, uh, that said, what I recommend that you do, because remember, you're playing with a couple of variables

[19:05] here. You're playing with the taste, which is the sugar, right? With sweetness, rather. You're dealing with the glycemic index, which is how much the product is going to spike blood sugar levels. And then, and by the way, you can add things that are not sugars, for instance,

[19:20] sugar, alcohols, and other things like this that do have an effect on people's could possibly have an effect on people's glycemic index, although I don't think

[19:27] much, actually. I think sugar alcohols have that much of an effect on a glycemic index. I not sure that they can make give you the runs, whatever. Anyways. And you're also working with the texture because sugars lower the freezing point depression of ice cream

[19:39] base, and that's how they do things like that's one of the reasons why ice cream has the right textures. If you increase your sugar, then you decrease, you increase the softness of an ice cream at a particular dipping temperature.

[19:52] And if you decrease the sugar, you make it consequently harder. So the ultimate website to go to on this is www.dairyscience.info, which is the University of Guelphs run by Professor Douglas Goff, his website on dairy

[20:09] science. Specifically, I would look at 2 articles. One is called the science of gold in quotes, Goldilocks Ice Cream, and that's, I guess, you know, just right. You know what I mean? And they had they go into how to calculate freezing point depression, right? So then you're going to need to go and look on any a number of websites that'll give you glycemic indexes to things. But you want to shoot for a specific freezing point depression and then shoot for a specific glycemic index. And things you can use other than sugar to depress. So if you're using Splenda, and you're using maybe one of the sugar alcohols

[20:42] that, and you can read up its specific freezing point depression ratio compared with sugar, right? So if you know that you want a sweetness relative to, let's

[20:51] say, 14 to 15% by weight in a batch of sugar. That the sweetness of it you're shooting for. You're looking for a sweetness index similar to that, right? And then you're looking for, and then you rate that also as a freezing point of one, sugar, right? Then you're looking to find other ingredients that add up to that. And the instructions and equations are all on university of Guelph's website. So you can add alcohol, which lowers the freezing point, in addition to some sugar alcohols, and then an artificial sweetener, like splendor, should you have to do that, although I highly recommend fructose. Problem with fructose, by the way, people. Aside from the fact that it is an actual sugar, and that you would have to write it on the label as such, and that some people who are, you know, in advocacy for diabetics, don't advocate fructose because they believe it has other problems, even though they all recognize that it has a much lower glycemic

[21:37] index, and therefore it's better from that standpoint. There's a bunch of studies and the research isn't exactly clear yet. I don't even know what I was saying. fructose, alcohol, a little bit of salt. So alcohol can be used to balance out the whatever freezing point depression you don't get when you're adding fructose you can get with alcohol. Anyhoo, that's my ¢18 on that. Good Goldilocks, by the way. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, nice. Good caller. Oh... Oh, color. yes, caller. on the air. Hello, Dave. Howdy. Hey, uh, Sean from Palo Alto. Oh, how you doing? Yeah, I'm doing good. Um, I just had a question about I'm trying to make some Zabion and ISI, right? Um, and, uh, doesn't really work. And I was wondering if you had any pointers. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. So let me see whether I know what's happening. It looks foamy and then it breaks after like 3 minutes and turns into like a very liquidy soup in the bottom of your

[22:32] bowl. Yeah correct. Yeah. You haven't heated it enough. So one of the things with Zabayon is, and I've never made it in the in the EC. I always do it on a stovetop, like old school, you know, like sugar, the egg yolks, white wine, whip it, you know,

[22:46] cook it. Yeah, and so you're sitting there and you're whipping it with a whisk, right? And you think it's fluffy and you're incredibly worried that you're going to curdle it and you're going to make it taste bad because you're going

[22:55] to overheat the egg yolks. And so you get, what happens is it starts building texture based on the aeration that you're giving it with the whisk, not based on the fact that you've cooked the egg yolk

[23:07] enough. And then as soon as it cools down, it loses its structure and turns back into a liquid again, you've lost

[23:13] the texture. The problem is you haven't heated it enough. So you can, you can heat it, creme anglaise style, and a zippy with a circulator. I'm assuming since you live in Palo Alto, you have 10 immersion circulators, are you one of those? I do have one. Yeah, all right. So, you know, like, unless what's the, there's East Palo Alto and Palo Alto, right, Stas? Yeah, I don't remember. You don't remember? Isn't East Palo? She went to Stanford. Yeah, she went to Stanford, but she, I guess, never left campus. no connection with that place anymore. That place anymore. Wow. Well, people who went to Stanford generally just forget about East Palo Alto anyway. Yeah, anyways. But so my my my impression of people who live in in the in the non-Eastern section of Palo Alto is that they all have kind of immersion circulators.

[23:58] But anyways, the, you know, what, I mean, you know, whatever, it's a stereotyping people based on the tech industry, I guess. But, uh, so you could do the, do you do it in immersion circulator and what temperature do you use? So I did it at 65. Oh, yeah, way too low. Way too low. Way too low because when you add sugar to an egg yolk or liquids like wine or acids to an egg yolk or salt to an egg yolk.

[24:23] You radically increase a temperature at which it starts thickening. So I don't have a particular temperature for zabayon, but just for an FYI, creme anglaise. Now, admittedly, there's a lot of liquid in a creme anglaise more so than in probably in a Sabaillon. So like my, my, and I've given it before, but my specific creme anglaise recipe, just as in FYI, is 500 milk, 500 cream, 10 extra large egg yolks, 170 grams

[24:52] sugar plus flavoring, like vanilla and salt. So that cooks at 82 Celsius. for like, for like 15 minutes. So the, and and by the way, once you reach a temperature at which egg yolks are going to start to thicken, they tend to continue to thicken in custody and on

[25:09] glazy and and zabayon style bases. They tend to continue to thicken over time, but beyond, they won't break as long as they don't go higher than whatever the full setting temperature of the protein is at that dilution and

[25:21] that and that ion level. But they will take on eggy notes as they cook longer. So like a creme anglaise, it's cooked for 10, 15 minutes at 82 is great. One that's cooked for 20 starts having a little bit of an eggy aroma, especially when it's warm. So I would experiment with much higher temperatures, something like somewhere like, again, I don't know how much wine you're adding, but you could try 82 for 10 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes.

[25:47] Remember, it's in a bag, make sure it's agitated so that it stirs itself. Uh, and then, um, see whether that is enough, or if it's too much, if it starts tasting curdled and you start getting little like curds in it, then you drop the temperature. Let me tell you one thing. This is a secret I learned from many years ago from one and

[26:05] Rochus's book, sous vide, you know, the original one, the one from Spanish that was translated into English in like 2001 or whatever it is. When you pull the

[26:15] anglaise mix from the circulator, it will look lumpy. Throw it onto a counter and smack it around with your hands so that it breaks it up and it will be smooth as

[26:27] silk. No problems. The other thing is, is that you can, as long, if you have a vacuum machine, this is

[26:32] actually, uh, really good. If you don't have a vacuum machine to it lightly, you can blend it such that you don't have to worry about the kalaza as well. Because otherwise you would normally have to strain the zavillon to get rid of any trace of Halaza before you served it. But if you if you quickly pulse it in a Vita Prep. You can, uh, or pulse an invider prep, just like I do with an anglaise base. As long as you don't overwhip it, you can break up the halazi and you don't need to strain it to get rid of any other particles. And I don't know how Palo Alto. You are, but that means you also have a vitaprep to go to circulator. Not that Palo, not that. Well, someday we'll all be that Palo Alto. But anyway, so but like a light blending can help get rid of that. The only issue is if you don't have a vacuum machine. A lot of excess air in the bag can lead to, I think, off flavors.

[27:20] So, for instance, I, I, you know, most things I say are as good in a Ziploc as they are in a vacuum bag,

[27:26] creme anglaise is not one of them. It's still good in a Ziploc. And if I had never had it in a, it's like side by side tasted, like an anglaise done in a, in a ziploc versus

[27:33] on glazed done in a vacuum bag, I'd probably say that they're identical, but they're just not.

[27:38] The one in the vacuum bag is a little bit better. And I think that's because there's no air involved in it. So if you, if you, you could, then not use a, you could put all the ingredients in a zippy, exclude the air without using a blender, like kind of smash it up on

[27:51] the counter by hand, make sure it's fully mixed and distributed, maybe give the, the yolks like a little bit of a forking to break them all up before you add it, uh, and then you could strain it

[28:00] afterwards, and that would probably be, uh, and or, you know, strain it and whip it, you know, afterwards to get the kind of texture that you want.

[28:07] Anyway, some combination of those things should work, but I believe it's the temperature that was your problem. Okay. And then I could also probably serve that cold after assuming that works, like in the whipper. Do you see any problem with that? Oh, no. once you function, once you once you get the egg yolks to the right temperature, they're they're good. Then, you know, as long as they're not too thick, you should be able to put it out through

[28:28] your uh, through your whipper. Like depends on how thick you've gone, but usually it stays into a light pourable consistency. And then the only trick is I usually, when I'm doing things that are thick, or if I'm doing fluid gels, I just put my finger over the tip of the whipper and snap it down towards the head before I dispense just to make sure that I'm not, you know, just blasting nitrous out without getting the product

[28:50] out. You know what I mean? But she'll work. Yeah, definitely. She'll refine it. should hold a lot better. Oh yeah, definitely. Ain't no problem. Oh, also, wait, if you mix it if you mix the stuff beforehand, right, you should be able to pressurize it in the ISI and just cook it in the circulator at the

[29:07] ISI, swirling it occasionally. Not going to guarantee it, but it should work. You mean pressurize the SSI then put it in the bath? Yeah. You don't have to pressurize it beforehand. You could probably do it unpressurized and pressurize it after you chill it, but it should work. In other words, you might be able to get around not having the bag by doing it

[29:26] in ISI. It's a thug. I like that idea. Yeah. Give it a shot list. As long as you don't have a thermal whip. Now, let us know how it works out. Okay, cool. Yeah, well, thanks a lot. No problem. I have a 2nd call. All right, cool. Squeeze it before the break. Yeah, squeezy. Squeeze. Call her. on the air. Hey, Dave Arnold, this is Martine from Peoria, Illinois. Oh, how you doing? Uh, pretty good. So what I've been thinking about is I'm trying to find a way to infuse my basting butter.

[29:55] Uh, what I wanted to see is, is there a possible temperature that I could keep butter in a circulator with aromatics without the butter separating,

[30:06] to therefore potentially in the kitchen have a different basting butter for each

[30:11] protein? Oh, yeah. Or would there not be flavor temperature? Would it break? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're going to break. So you want to, you want to do like a compound butter using a

[30:25] circulator but never have it melt? To not separate milk solid. So when I'm basing with it, I can still keep the solids and I can still form the caramelized flavors later, but also to

[30:37] not have the chunks of just making a straight up compound butter, which could potentially burn in the pan. Yeah. That's an interesting problem. Let me see. I just moved, so I haven't gotten a chance to experiment at all yet, but that's why I'm calling and asking. Yeah, that's a good problem. Let me think about this. You know what I would do? Uh, I would, I, and I see if this can be done. So. The question

[31:07] is, can you refunctionalize the milk proteins? So, like, the interesting thing to do would be to clarify the butter, right? Save the milk solids, right? Measure how much water you've boiled off during the clarification process. Flavor the butter, flavor of the butter, the butter fat, strain it. and then somehow recreate the butter from that. So I don't know if that's possible. Here's how, here's a way there's possible. If you made your own butter, you could just save that, uh, no, it's not gonna have all of it because it's gonna be, I don't know whether that, whether, I mean, I'm sure it's possible. I've turned melted butter back into cream before using an ultrasonic homogenizer. So I know that I know it's possible to turn butter back to cream. Uh, has a little bit of an off flavor, but uh, not a lot. Hmm. And I don't know that I don't know that... I don't know, for instance, that keeping butter in a bag in a circulator, Okay, so here's another thing. You could put like a circulator in a walk. I used to do this with oysters. You put a circulator in a walk-in, you said it at 60. You know what I mean? Or 65. Something that's not quite hot enough to melt butter in the bag and maybe you get better penetration. Like maybe you keep enough, uh, uh, enough solidity so that the butter holds its shape and doesn't break, but that you get better penetration

[32:40] of the flavors. That's another way to do it. Or like a wine cooler. You know, if you have a wine cooler or a wine fridge, is to vacuum bag it with the butter and a wine fridge,

[32:50] uh, or like I say, in a circulator underwater at a fixed temperature in a walk-in, which works very well, I mean, it's kind of a little waste, but

[32:57] it works very well. Just keep it below the temperature at which the butter is fully going to break and melt out. Uh, you know, like at a soft temperature range, like maybe in like, what do you think, 70, something like this? And Fahrenheit. And then, um, and then cold chill it to

[33:13] resolidify it, you know, totally and then peel off the aromatics or scrape them off of the outside. It might be worth a shot. Yeah, well, I'm gonna work on it, and if I figure anything, I don't know, I'll send you a tweet or something. Yeah, please do. All right, thank you. good luck with it. And let's take a break and come right back with cooking issues.

[33:38] Boido Pastors is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected Red Meat Abattoir, Oslaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected

[33:56] poultry Abattoir, a slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land, stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, White Oakpastures.com. You know, Jack, I've always so enamored of the way he says

[34:31] abattoir, that like, I haven't listened to the rest of it, but he's like, from Miami. All right. That's like the end of the country going south, all the way to Princeton. Princeton. Hello? That's south of here. What are we, in the freaking Arctic? Like, he's like, New York? No crap on them. They don't deserve the products of my USDA inspected abattoir. It's a pretty good voice. Why don't passes? I mean, that's cool. That's good. I like I love the way like I would eat any kind of poultry that man sells based on the way he says poultry. Give me some poultry. When you can queue it up. I know it's like. Yeah, yeah. maybe we'll surprise you later. Yeah, just like poetry. poetry. love that. But now I feel insulted. He hates New Yorkers. He's like, Princeton? Okay. New York? crap on those people, right? Anyways, uh... Red meat, abattoir. Ah, it's so strong. It's so strong. Okay. Hey, and we had another butter. Well, let me do Michael Knack. Michael Nackin wrote in about the uh, the question of using, using the uh, the

[35:33] Suz Veed and the circulator with, um, remember that guy that we uh, had in the

[35:38] class and he would only pronounce it Suz Veed? And he was all he cared about was pickled onions, the onions, the onions. Remember this? Oh my god. Suz Vied. I swear to God. He's in a class with Mills and I for like 2 or 3 days straight. And like he hears us saying sous vide. Like, like, 200, 300 times a day. You know what I mean? The difference between sous vide and low temperature, sous vide, sous vide, vacuum, sous vide, sous vide, sous vide, sous vide, sous vide, up until the very end

[36:05] of the class. Okay. Uh, this is for Michael Nakkin. Which is one of our favorite vegetarian cooks, when you say? You know, Eddie Shepard, Michael Nackin. Does anyone else write in with the vegetarian? They're the people that we know. Anyway, one in the UK, one in the US. And like very far separated, right? So you got your West Coast, Michael Nackin. He's west coast. not Boston, right? Isn't he over there in the Seattle area? Anyways, so it's like, you know, they're kind of antipodal vegetarian chef's name. Right? Okay. Just heard Eddie Shepherd's call. Here's an updated version of my note on sous vide and vegetables and circulators and vegetables. Um, Okay. Oh, by the way, he says, sorry I missed a question a couple of weeks ago about SUV vegetables. I got hooked on a 28 episode Yale lecture series about the Civil War. Oh, better now. Now you shafted me, Michael. Stas, like, always says that I'm going to, like, throw away all this food stuff and just go to do a

[36:57] Civil War. Like, so, because, like, freaking David Wundridge made me read Shelby Foote's, you know, 8000000000 word, like, 3 volume thing on, uh, on the Civil War, which took, you know, forever, like, so many visits to the

[37:09] hopper to read that Shelby Foot thing, so much hopper reading. And now you got me hooked on it. I'm assuming you're referring to Professor Blight's Civil War 28 lecture

[37:17] series because I had to look it up when I saw this. And now I'm sure I'm going to go down to like a 28 lecture K-hole thanks to you and Stas is going to have to like going to torture me about Civil War forever. You know, we were going to buy a grist mill in Herndon, Virginia that was for sale that was like totally falling apart. It was so cheap because like my, my dream is to like, whenever like New York's getting me down, it's to like leave it all behind and just have my own water wheel and just like whenever anyone pisses me off, it's

[37:43] just, the water wheel, you know what I mean? Like someone calls me with some irritating thing and she saw I got flick on the water to like open the raceway and grind some stuff. You know what I mean? Anyways, gristmills. They sold the gristmill. And then someone was selling a gristmill in Virginia. You're not on it because you don't really want it. Well, that's not the case. It's not the case. Stas looks at me the other day because we I sent the guy an email. him and a guy in Vermont. I said, have you sold your gristmills yet? And they said, yes, and Stas looks at me without missing a beat and goes, some other dude is living your life for you. It's not, it's not right. Anyways, uh, Okay, uh, back to Michael Nackin. I think that the list you made of vegetarian applications for SUV was pretty amazing, and I agree. Well thank you. I agree with you that eggs alone are a good enough reason to own a circulator. And by the way, have you seen a CV'd egg calculator that Doug Baldwin and I built on the

[38:39] www. chefsfs.chefsteps.com. That's chefsf.com. Yes, I've seen it. Uh, it's good. I like it. Yeah. And I love what Eddie Shepard said too. Those mushroom burgers are baller. I can tell you from personal experience. I agree with you that in general, precise temperature control isn't that necessary with typical vegetables. And that bagging to retain or add flavor is the bigger advantage, although the kitchen team at Chef Steps has done some work that shows that 85 Celsius gives you better color than 95 Celsius for things like asparagus.

[39:07] So there's some upside in there and not having to manage a stovetop

[39:12] simmer, too, carefully that said, I don't bust out the circulator for veg on a daily basis. Actually, I'm more likely to use the microwave in many cases. But besides all the ideas you mentioned, some other vegetarian uses I enjoy is kanji. There's a kanji recipe. So he does the kanji in the bag. Also, by the way, beans. I never got it right, but beans in the bag. I don't know if I mentioned this, is similar to like, how do you say flask in Italian status? Have you forgotten your Italian already? It's something like, like, fiasco. something like beans a la fiasco, like Fagioli a la fiasco or something like that. I love it because it sounds like it's a fiasco. But that's where you put the beans and the oil and if you're a fiasco? Yeah. and like the Tennessee? Uh, and the rosemary and whatever in the in the bottle, you put it in the oven, you cook it, blah. Good. And you had to shake the beans out of the bottle. No one knows what I'm talking about here, seriously? Okay. And that would be a good application, but you got to get the, you got to get the water level right, and the water level for a bean depends a lot on how old the beans are and how dry they are and what kind of bean it is, which is why it's a difficult

[40:10] recipe. But anyways, Michael's got a recipe for a kanji there. I love kanji, who doesn't love kanji. Do you like kanji stars? Oh. Surprise. Good. For a shiitake kanji and a challenge. on the herbivoracious site. And also where Michael wants to infuse a lot of flavor, as in his Sichuan cauliflower, also on herbivoracious.com from 2013, Sichuan

[40:39] Spicy Cauliflower Recipe.HTML. Um, Anyway, there you go. Right? Okay. Now, let's get some questions. Andrew Hunter wrote in. I have a question for cooking issues about pigments. You like that word pigment? Not really. No? You don't hate it. Like you hate fungus. Or spore. Uh, I have a question about, I think pigment sounds gross. pigment. I like pigs. Anyway, in wine. For an event, I want to figure out a way to serve clear wine. Is there any way I could possibly remove pigments from wine without substantially altering the taste slash

[41:14] mouthfeel? I don't know a ton about the relevant chemistry, but my preliminary research on the Wikipedia. It suggests a lot of, a lot of the same phenols, the color of the wine also provide wine like flavors.

[41:24] So I'm pretty doubtful that this is feasible, but I figured I'd ask, failing that, is there a good way? I could fake it. Flavor isolates that aren't colored plus watered down neutral spirits. The quality of the final product doesn't have to be particularly great. If I essentially get 2 buck chucked that looks like water. By the way, you see the 2 buck Chuck article, there's an article on, I think it's on the Huffington

[41:42] Post about like how nasty, I think it is, unlike how nasty 2 buck Chuck is in terms of like that there's like

[41:47] mice that they just scrape up everything, including like mice and like rodents and rats and whatever and bugs and

[41:53] spiders, and you just throw them all in the fermenting vats because that's how it's 2 bucks because they just like, you know, everything gets fermented.

[41:59] And I was, and, and like they were like horrified by it. I'm like, yeah, that's how that that rolls. That's $2 wine. That's $2 wine. You've purchased wine that is $2. And there's no like transfer of bacteria or anything. You're fermenting it. You're something that do the hell out of it. And then they filter it. There's no hair or anything. It's like, it's, it's $2 wine. Anyway, uh, 2 buck chuck. If I essentially get 2 buck chuck, that looks like water. I can work with that. He also bought unusable land because the quality of the grapes isn't high, so he's just like

[42:31] growing like super high yield land that just is like mega yield of grapes. The guy's name is, I think, Shaw. Forget it. And he just has like 8000000000 acres of this like incredibly high yield land that produces shitty grapes and also produces against rats and mice. It just scrapes them into a fermentation bucket and says, go. Ferment, 2 buck, 2 buck, miracle, and it's all vertically integrated, so he doesn't have to pay anyone. You know what I mean? And then I was like, you know what, though? Like, people Where is the land? Somewhere in California, somewhere in Cal- like somewhere in California. Uh, and it's uh, but it's, it's like people like have no problem drinking really crappy beer, but they're horrified at the practices of the 2 buck truck.

[43:10] Whatever. Two book chook. Um, I can work with that. Just has to be drinkable and make people say that's wine. Uh, seems like a long shot, but I figured I'd ask. PS few years ago, I randomly walked into Booker and Dax looking for a quick cocktail with a friend. I'd never heard of the bar before and no idea what I was getting into. It was one of the best surprises I've ever had. Thanks so much for the great drinks. I particularly loved the Thai basil daiquiri. Well, thank you. Mr. Hunter. So here's what I have to say. Yeah, you're not going to be able to get an actual good flavor without stripping a lot of

[43:41] the, you know, a lot of the characteristics for the wine. If you don't care that you are going to be ruining the wine. You can look into activated carbon. So, and listen, activated carbon is an incredibly complicated subject, right? So for a primer, like a fairly opinionated primer, but just for a quick primer on

[44:00] how activated charcoals and carbons are made and what the differences between them are. Go to www.homedistiller.org, uh, and look for activated carbon for purification of alcohol by Gert Strand, uh, from

[44:15] Malamo, Sweden, who does not want you to reproduce uh, his, uh, his, what do you think, Gert? his her work in any form. It's all copy, whatever. But it talks about it. Because, like, there's various ways you can make activated carbon. You can use heat. um, like, uh, this chemical process, their steam process, and they have different structures, and then depending on what the substrate was, coconut husks or whatever, they make it out

[44:43] of the, the properties are very different. It all has to do with the surface area, the theoretical surface area of the carbon, how it's been ground or milled down, and whether it contains mainly

[44:53] macropores, mesopores, or micropores, because what you're filtering out has to have a smaller size. Sorry, the pores have to be, you know, the same size or larger as the ones, but not too much as the stuff you're trying to filter out. So there's 1000000000s of different, not billions. There's many kinds of activated carbon for different things. I suggest going to nor it. Uh, that's, uh, I don't have the website here, but Norrit is a brand of activated, uh, charcoal. In fact, someone sent a tweet to me on this and there's them actually decolorizing wine. There's literally a photo on the internet or a video on the internet of Norrit, N-O-R-I-T, brand, one of the Norrit brands of activated carbon being stirred into wine and then filtered through coffee, regular filter paper

[45:32] slash, you know, that's a coffee filter. Uh, fancy coffee filter, to pull out all of the uh, uh, carbon and stuff's

[45:40] clear, went from red wine to white wine, no problem. It's completely non-toxic. It's going to strip a lot of aroma is the problem, but it will still probably taste like wine. So you see if you can get a sample. A lot of big companies will send out a sample or you could try other brands of activated carbon. He's got to try to find whatever is similar to that so that it has it or just experiment with it. Remember, this is also the way the color is removed from aged rum.

[46:01] So most a lot of white rums are aged. Most white rums are not Ray and nephew, but like most white rums are aged and then stripped of color using a charcoal filtration technique. Now, if you want to go really baller on it, I'm not saying you do, but if you want to go really baller on it, what I would do is put the wine in a rotary evaporator, distill all the alcohol and volatiles off of it, save it, then decolorize the water base with an activated

[46:23] charcoal because it's going to pull mainly color, but won't strip a lot of volatiles, then re-add them and dilute them back to proof. But that's a pain in that. If you're willing to use 2 buck chuck for this. I'm going to make a little leap and say that you don't need to go and use a roto app to do this kind of thing. What do you think, Stuff? Yeah, agree. Yeah. Okay, so try that. I wouldn't try using, like, if you if you shift the acidity of it, because they're at the sign and pigments. You can make it colorless by adding a bunch of sodium hydroxide to it, but in no

[46:50] case, you drink that. Yeah. Okay. That time. Ah, my ah, geez, come on, really? Well, you know. Ah, man. All right. I'll give a little shout out to the things that I didn't talk about today. Ruben wrote in about Cherry Pit liqueur. And I'm glad I didn't have a chance to talk about this because I didn't find a satisfactory answer

[47:11] yet. A lot of conflicting information about, uh, like how to figure out how much cyanide or cyanogenic compounds are going to be in a stone fruit

[47:18] liqueur. Uh, although there's an awesome uh, web post. I forget who did it. It's called Yes or Noyo for using stone fruit liqueurs? Awesome. And then Brian wrote in about cultured butter and how to make a better cultured

[47:32] butter, and I'm really sad because I did a lot of research on this. And it contains the word

[47:37] Lucana stock, Meserantroides. And whenever anyone says, Lucana stock styles, what song do I think about? I said on the show, Lukonestock, it's Lukenbach, Texas. You know the song, Lukenbach, Texas? But it's Lucano stock. And so now, like, the entire time over, when I was biking, I was like, new kind

[47:54] of stuck, Texas, you know that song? With Willie and Wheeling and the boys. You know this song? Waylon Jennings? Jesus, come on, people. get some culture So I'll get to that. Although next week we're not here. Next week I'm in California in the Redwoods. And I won't have cell service. I won't be able to call in. So we're going to be gone next week, but I'll get this when I come back. Chris, Chris Collar. It's collar, like holler, right? Wrote in about La Song Suchong, whether the smoke is carcinergenic. Maybe, but I wouldn't worry about it. And I'll research it. And also, I got, I had a blender question with blender stuff. Uh, I'm gonna, from Michael, uh, I'm going to get that next time. And tomatoes in the fridge, and we'll leave with this. tomatoes in the fridge and we'll come back in 2 weeks. The question was, from why Heston Blumenthal can put peeled tomatoes into ice water so they don't continue cooking after they've been

[48:41] blanched, and it doesn't ruin the texture, whereas, as we all know, only enemies of quality put tomatoes in the fridge. And the reason is, the mealiness in tomatoes doesn't develop immediately just regarding being chilled the way that you can show some things and it destroys the texture immediately. Instead, it is storage at low temperatures that causes tomatoes to turn mealy. So as long as they're in and out of the ice water a relatively short amount of time, your tomatoes won't go mealy. And if you really want to get kung fu about it, think about this. Why can you story charity, why can cherry tomatoes and grape tomatoes be stored in the fridge successfully without them turning bad, and it's because they're mostly seed and gel? And the seed and gel portion does not turn mealy only the fleshy parts. So in tomatoes that have very small amounts of fleshiness to them, like cherry tomatoes, they can be stored fairly successfully in the fridge without them turning too crappy, but don't let anyone know that I said

[49:30] that. Cooking issues.

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