[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York

[0:04] City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. I'm Erica Watt, host of Let's Get Real, the cooking show about finding, preparing, and eating food. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.

[0:32] Hello and welcome to the Ketchup edition of Cooking Issues coming to you, pre-taped. Actually, we're live right now, but we're not streaming live right now, Jack? I mean, yeah, like technically we're always live. I mean, we're not dead. Like we're here. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, but the thing is, like, that never mean, what does that even mean, then? What does live mean? Like, if we're not streaming live. right? You can't really say it's live because live implies that, you know, no

[0:54] no opportunity for, I guess live implies no opportunity for editing. Right. Right? Although there's always an opportunity. Yeah, but yeah, there is always an opportunity for editing. Most importantly, self-editing. But the, yeah, I mean, I guess it's not like we have time to edit these things anyway, right, Jack? So, so as good as live, because we're not going to edit it. Anything we say is just going to show up on this ring. But don't don't bother picking up your telephones and calling because we're not at the studio right now. If you're listening to this, we're not here, right? I mean, maybe we are. And if you listen to this next Tuesday at, uh, If you really want to get into it, I'm sure that most of the time when people listen to cooking issues, we're not

[1:31] here either. when they're podcasting us, you know? Right. Yeah, but hey, you know, but people do call in. It's like, it's like, you know, live-ish. Yeah. You know? Heritage radio network, live-ish. Yeah. Well, and like radio quotes. Right, right? I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I really don't know. What do you think about this does? I don't know. I don't want to get into it. All right, so listen, we are, though. As usual, joined with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, and Jack, back from where were you, Jack? was in Louisville, Kentucky. And how was that? It was awesome. Yeah, what were you doing? Cool town. I spoke on a panel called mastering the media. And did you, in fact, master the media? I was supposed to help others master the media. I told them that podcasts are the Wild West and they seem to like that. Yeah? Yeah. All right. And so, wow, so like, actual radio is like Eastern capitalist bankers and this is like... We're all in an episode of Hell on Wheels right now. Yep. Like, I definitely don't get to be Cullen Bohana, and somebody else, somebody else gets to be Cullen Bohana, not me. You watch that show, Styles? I like that show. You ever been to Louisville though? a cool town. a good town. Yeah, it really is. It's, you know, they got things that I like a lot. They got your whiskey. Whiskey is delicious. They have a lot of it. Oh, you know what else they have? You'll appreciate this. I went and visited the flavor man. They develop all the soda flavors. It's like a lab of flavor science lab. And is it actually one man? Well, the flavor man is one man. His name is Dave, but he's got a pretty big team working for him. Like, it's kind of a good title. Hi, I'm Dave. The flavor man. Yeah. It's a really cool place. show you photos after the show, though. Are the way you allowed to take photos? Yeah. Yeah, they've developed. I mean, they can like, some they can disclose and some they can't. They didn't grind up your camera. Do they tell you who, who you, like, they tell you who the clients are? They can't tell me all the clients. He's like, listen, I do all of the polar brands of soda. Hey, you know what, you know, really ticks me off, Jack, about sodas and Styles will back me up on this. Everyone drinks these, not everyone. A lot of people drink these like flavored seltzer waters. You know what I'm talking about, Jack? It started with that, you know, rancid lemon, fake lemon lime flavor that tastes like you drip to pledge into your water by accident, and then it was like raspberry and black cherry. Yeah, black cherry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's the thing, right? I'm all for people drinking things that they like to drink. But the smaller bottlers. And now here's what really ticks, I think, Stasov, right? You hate this. Some of the, like, larger brand names, like Canada Dry, higher independent bottlers, right, to do

[4:09] their their bottling. And these people run seltzer, God's

[4:14] seltzer, unflavored seltzer water, right? soda water or, you know, sparkling water for those of you that have never been, you know, near New York or

[4:23] whatever, because some people don't know what seltzer is. You know that? Weird. Um, They run it through the machines that have had these rancid flavors in

[4:31] them and they poison. So like it's always raspberry with us, right? You crack it open and you get these like raspberry note off your cell, sir, and it ruins it. It makes it taste like it's like, 1st of all, it makes you think, oh, they're not clean. They're unclean people. And then it also, it's just no good, right? So that's what your thoughts on this? Have you noticed this, Jack? Yeah. What the heck is wrong with people? You know what? I've never had... Well, look, I don't buy seltzer outside anymore unless I have to because I, you know, I make my own, but have you ever had that problem with vintage? Vintage, no. No, no, actually, I haven't. Now, God bless a vintage seltzer corporation. What's your seltzer of choice if you have to buy it? Oh, I mean, I'm a New Yorker, so vintage. Okay. Because vintage was the always, it was always 2 bottles for a dollar, right? And any real seltzer drinker only buys one liter bottles because anything less is a waste because you're going to drink a full liter of

[5:24] it and anything more is going to go flat. And if your friend comes over to try and drink some, and they drink out of the bottle, then you have to throw away 2 liters because I don't want the... Oh my god, you know how it is, or at a party, or they'll crack open a 2 liter at the end of the

[5:37] night, and the court... Yeah. And then the whole thing sucks. It's like, it's, look, any real seltzer drinker will tell you, right? The 1st of all, you have to drink everything you buy within about a week because, you know, you

[5:49] want, you want, 1st of all, you want to buy it at a place that has high turnover. So the place where there's dust on top of the bottles of vintage, just ignore it because plastic bottles don't hold CO2 that well and they don't last that long, right? So go to a, you know, a place that gets a good turnover vintage, buy, buy a case of one liters. Like, that's the way to do it, right, does? Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I like how we're never going to catch up because we're not going to answer any questions. But one more thing. By the way, seers alls are shipping now. We got the notice, actually, 2 of them shipped on Tuesday when we did our non-ketchup show. Are we doing a show on Tuesday? We can talk about that then, right? Peter and Emma are going to. Yeah, they're going to come. But anyway, but they're shipping, but he, I, like, we've gotten a lot of flak on the Kickstarter over, over the how long it's taken us to get the product out, although,

[6:36] although, we're 3 months, we're 3 months late. We're 3 months late, which in the Kickstarter terms is like not that big of a deal. And I guess people think because there's not a lot of moving parts, but there's not a lot that can go wrong, when you're trying to make something like this

[6:47] here's all, but you're incorrect, you know? You know what happened today, Jack? Somebody said on a Kickstarter, they said, what did they say, Stars? What's going to happen next? The tape on the Amazon boxes won't hold. Oh, just lame trolling. Like, you know what? Put your pants on. Get out of your underwear. Get out of your parents' base. Get out of your parents' basement. Go to, you know, just go outside. You know, like, if you're like me and you burn, wear a hat, but get outside, walk around, you clearly have too much time to troll

[7:19] me, and, you know, I wish everyone happy steering who ordered a seers all. And I hope, I like, really, all we really want is for people to enjoy the product. That's all we really want is that for people to have a good product, they can enjoy. We don't want it to get ruined, right, which was, you know, we just want people to, you know, we want

[7:37] it to be good for people. Except that guy. No, I have another one. I hope that I hope that, you know, the tape does fall off. That's right. Our problem, though, then, after that. No, and once once Amazon, yeah, I guess, well, it's still, until it's in their hands, hopefully with, with, hopefully a tapeless box arrives mangled, but still with a pristine

[7:58] steers all inside to this person's house. And you know what? I still hope they enjoy this yourself. I hope they enjoy it. Uh, searing good and good health. and with good food. Oh, oh, no. And then he or she, I don't really know. Appended worst Kickstarter ever. Which makes us worse than the people. He's a comic book guy then. Yeah, well, it makes us makes us worse than people who actually never delivered a product. You know, I was, I was compared uh, on Twitter. This is by someone who actually just wants a sears also, it's not bad. They were just getting the Samagia. They were getting Samajita, right? Bernie made off of cooking equipment too. Bernie Madoff. I mean, correct me, but more of a Ponzi scheme, right? So if it was a Bernie made off kind of a situation, 1st of all, right, I mean, like, we would have scammed for, like, something a lot bigger than, like, a

[8:52] 65, 65, tears old. But it would work more like this. Listen. Listen, uh, You send me one screen, and then I'm going to get 2 people to send you screens, and we're just going to keep doing this forever, right? Two series all screens. That's how it would have worked. Thats if I was the Bernie Madoff of Sears all. It's a pyramid. It's a pyramid, sweet pyramids game. You know, pyramids games, like, it never, like, ceases to amaze me how much people continue to love a pyramid

[9:23] scheme. You know there's a show? I dont know what network it's on. It's called American Greed. You heard about this? I think Stacy Keach is the what's it called? The narrator for it. Remember Stacy Keach? The actor? I don't. I think it's him. He's played detective. He played like Mike Hammer. You know, your namesake. And, um, And so he narrates this thing on American Greed. It's all about swindlers who have ripped people off with like things that are too good to be true, and it turns out they are too good to be true, and it's always like, it's always like someone in Hoboken or Spokane that's like lost their life

[9:53] savings, and now like they have to work at a gas station, even though they're 85 and like, you know, you know,

[9:59] incapacity. it's horrible stuff. But then the commercials in it are literally, like, the commercials that I saw were to invest in what are clearly schemes, like,

[10:11] fairman schemes. Like this one lady comes on. She's like, she's like, hey, and like, I swear to God, I swear to God,

[10:17] that what they were talking about on the show was this guy who said, listen, I'm going to guarantee you, you know, 12% a year off my real estate investments and was buying just bunk, like real estate that was

[10:30] worthless, and then taking all the new subscriptions and just spending it and paying the dividends out to people.

[10:35] Classic made-off style stuff, right? Needed to keep getting new people in because he wasn't making any money because he wasn't actually investing in anything worthwhile, right?

[10:42] Literally during that segment, there was a lady in a commercial who was like, guaranteed returns on real estate investments, can't lose, you know,

[10:52] just blah, blah, blah. I was like, holy crap. like the world is a weird place. Shame on you, CNBC. Oh, it is CNBC? CNBC. Shame on you. Shame on you. CNBC with your money reporting. Okay, some questions. Finally, people's questions. Oh my goodness. I just punched up the wrong thing. I punched up. Oh, stop playing stereo lab. I was like, my iPhone. We're going to get sued because we're not paying our BMI ASCAP stuff. It's okay if it's through an iPhone speaker through a microphone. I think then all all bets are off. Well, somehow, somehow, I looked up Dropbox to get my the cooking issue's up, but instead it picked up stereo lab, blips drips. So let me get the actual questions up here. Oh, maybe I should switch back to the iPad. I'm having some severe bad luck when I try to iPhone this thing, even with my new tablet. Fablet. Oh you're using that word? I know, it's terrible. Why is it fab? Phone tablet. Fab. But it sounds gross. It says gross. I don't like it. I only I only use it to be kind of like a jerk because it's terrible word. Okay. Brandon Bird. Uh, right? It's not Brendan Bern Arena. It's Brandon Bird. very close. I would love for him to go to a concert at, do they still call it the

[12:11] Brenenburn Arena? Where did you see Fleetwood Mac? That was just softly... You saw Fleetwood Mac? awesome. She said they play for 4 freaking hours. Three. They played for 12 hours. They were they were their own opening band. Oh my god. And by the way, Stas, well known. Disliker of Stevie Nicks before, but now...

[12:33] not disliked, just did not like her compared to Christine

[12:38] McBee. Right. But now, you more respect. I have a lot of respect for her. Yeah, that boy. She's the best. Yeah, that voice is really good. Oh don't go that far. Still still a Christy McVeigh fan over here. Yeah, still like... But, you know, just now she has... Wow. Oh, Stevie Nicks? Yeah. Uh, you know who I saw like, uh, actually, I guess a little bit later era in, uh,

[13:00] was uh, Ann Anne Wilson from Heart. Right? Anne Wilson, right? She kicked from serious behind. awesome. She just tore up the stage when I was at Tales of Cocktail. Yeah, just tore it up. Love to see that. Okay. Brandenburg from Chicago rights in. Hello, Hammer, David, Jack, or whoever's working the boot this time. By the way, I fired up a Searzal last week and what was his name? Elizabeth? Yeah. She was like, oh, my God, the boards are breaking and she just cut the, she's cut the, cut all the mics out. Oh, wow. Because she heard... Anyway. Don't worry, we got you. Nice 1st day on cooking issues for Liz. Yeah, and lots of shark meat. Oh, all this all this like fermented shark meat. Great. Yeah. A few questions for you. I recently used my pressure cooker to render some ground beef fat inside

[13:46] mason jars, and I noticed a curious phenomenon. After cooking for 2 hours and cooling the jars down in room temperature, they still bubbled and beiled. bubble bin boil. Do you like the word boiled? Or does it sound too much like like spore moil? No, no, no. Boiled this point. Well, boiled. Somewhat vigorously, even after the jars were cool to the touch. What is up with that? Okay. So, uh, answer that first. So assuming you're doing the pressure cooking in the jars, a la modernist cuisine has a section on rendering out lard and the pressure cooker because the good news about rendering lard

[14:20] and the pressure cooker is that, okay, okay, look. Let's go through it When you're rendering, not lard in this case, fat. you're rendering fat, you need to get the temperature above, you want to get the temperature above boiling because not all the fat's going to render out at 100. Anyway, so you, and you need to, uh, you need to heat the fat

[14:40] up not just enough to melt the fat, but to break it loose from its, uh, the connective tissue where it is and render it out and you get the cracklings and you get the, well, it depends with pork, you get the

[14:48] cracklings and you get the whatever else, right? With me stars, kind of. The good news about a pressure cooker is that you can't, you're not going to boil off all of the water that's in it. So you're going to get basically a constant 200 and

[15:01] in Fahrenheit, constant, like 250 something degrees Fahrenheit, and tell you've actually steamed all of the water out. So it's a good way to regulate the temperature of the stuff that you're rendering so that it's not going to get any

[15:13] burns in it. It not going to brown now. and beautiful and stuff like this, right? Still has a lot of the water in it, though. So you have to then separate the water out or like solidify it. So this is like the premise. Now, another thing that people do is they add baking soda to the fat when it's rendering supposedly makes it whiter in color. Baking soda is alkaline. So it's probably shifting, making sure that it's not too acidic, it's probably also reducing the, you know, the amount of free fatty

[15:41] acids. I don't really know, but it's like a known thing to add some baking soda to it. Uh, and uh, and the monitors cuisine guys do exactly that. So here is what I think is happening. Baking soda starts to degrade at

[15:57] temperatures, even without, so typically when you're using baking soda, right? You take baking soda and you add an acid to it, and then you get a reaction where you are forming a carbon

[16:10] dioxide, right? And that's how the leavening works. However, baking soda, even not in the presence of an acid, will start to decompose and form carbon dioxide. And it'll do that at temperatures inside of a pressure cooker.

[16:23] So my guess about what's happening. And I ask Chris Young about it too. Ask them about it. My guess is that when you're heating up the stuff in the jar, right? You're decomposing some of the, um, you're decomposing some of the baking soda, that's forming carbon dioxide. The carbon dioxide is then going into solution, and the water might also be an oil. I don't know about the solubility of CO2 into oil. I mean, I know N2O is very soluble in oil. That's why we use it in whipped cream. I presume CO2 is somewhat soluble in oil, but I really don't know. But there's also still water phase in there, remember? So what you're doing is, is you're putting a large amount of

[16:57] CO2, or not a large amount, but an amount of CO2 into the liquid at a relatively high

[17:05] pressure. And I'm presuming that when it cools off as the pressure decreases, the CO2 is bubbling

[17:11] out or maybe it's still producing CO2. I don't know. To me, it's got to be a CO2 effect. I can't think of anything else, reason why. After it's cool to the touch, it would continue to bubble unless it's continued production of CO2. That's all I can think about. And then as the pressure reduces, more stuff will bubble out. But on the other hand as it cools, it becomes more soluble. So, who knows? It's a crapshoot. But it's the only thing I could think of, and Chris seemed like it seemed reasonable. But I don't know. an interesting phenomenon. Anyone else who knows, please write it and tell us. Oh, and here's some here's some stuff. This also, by the way, he is a fan of these flavors. Really? Of these seltzer flavors. Like you, I'm a big fan of bubbles. Hello, cell, sir, and quite enjoy mixing carbonated water from my soda stream with fresh citrus juice.

[17:52] Do you like that word? Yeah. I also quite enjoy citrus flavored carbonated beverages from brands like... strong. That sound, man, yeah, like, can we can we just have that as like our, like, yeah, I got to get that on the sound effects board. Her flavored seltzer noise. Like Lacroix, Lacroix. How do you pronounce? How do you think that Americans pronounce this thing? La croix? I guess. The crocs. LaCroix. LaCroix, I guess? Americans? Yeah, LaCroix. Do you have any insight as to how beverages like that are produced? Is it simply a matter of dosing carbonated water with essential oils or is there something else involved? Okay. First of all, no, no, not essential oils. Essential. when you're using oils. Oils have to be suspended in emulsion. They're typically not clear. When you add them to, the classic one of this is citrus beverages like

[18:44] Sunkist, which aren't clear, they're a little bit cloudy, and it's because they have emulsified oils in them. Those emulsified oils need to be stabilized. And so for short stabilization periods, you can, if you want to do this, you can do this. You can get essential oils and you can emulsify them with gum Arabic and very strong into kind of a water slash or alcohol slash oil emulsion with gum Arabic

[19:08] water. I would do water and then add stabilize without coffee. need to put. anyway, boom. So you have this like central oil that's emulsified. It's going to be cloudy looking, like white, cloudy, like chalky water. That you can then add to soda and you can drink it like that. It's fine. And because the emulsion size is very, very small. So you're not going to get a lot of excess bubbling. It's not like adding like lemon juice to it or something like this. You're not going to get a huge amount of bubbling out. You're going to be okay because the particles are too really small to cause a lot of nucleation, presuming you do it right. Right? So you should be okay there. In the business, though. Uh, the gum Arabic isn't stable enough to have it uh, suspend for a long, long time. So what they do, what they used to do, is they would use brominated vegetable oil. And the bromine makes the oil. Remember, oil is lighter than water. So the bromine that they add to the essential oil makes the basic oil droplet

[20:01] heavier because part of it is the essential oil and part of it is brominated vegetable oil. And that has a weight that's heavier than water. So when you add the oils together into the droplets. They get a relatively neutral buoyancy and they don't want to float out. And by adding brominated vegetable oils, you can get a citrus beverage that's

[20:19] going to be stable through the next ice age, roughly. But, uh, you know, that order of magnitude, or, you know, till we have a nuclear war, whatever, whatever it is, nuclear war ice age, whichever comes first,

[20:29] uh, whatever. However, people don't like brominated vegetable oil anymore because there might be some health

[20:36] risks, et cetera, et cetera. And so people have moved away from it. And now, uh, like one of the replacements that they're using is uh, something called sucrose, uh,

[20:45] acetoisobuterate, or S-A-I-B for not as crazy, which apparently is non-toxic, but I didn't really know relatively little about it because I don't do that. I don't really do that kind of stuff for living, right? So I was going to do that. But the way they make the clear beverages is they use extracts,

[21:02] right? So the extracts are only stuff that are soluble in water and

[21:07] alcohol usually. Some of them will cloud when they're dissolved, depending on how they do it, but usually they'll compound those flavors, such that they don't cloud up when they're diluted and they

[21:18] work. So the flavors aren't going to be the same. That's why these things don't really taste like real... I mean, they're not really, like, you're losing whole parts of the, of the citrus when they're doing that, because they're adding only compounds that are, uh, that, you know, are going to be soluble in water and stay clear.

[21:38] And they're specific people that make that. So you're going to buy, you're going to buy the extract that's right for that. And by the way, just because the flavor is natural. Do people know this in general, just because the flavor is natural, flavor, man, doesn't mean that it's the flavor that you are buying. Yeah, talked about this. Yeah. So usually if you say something has natural lemon flavor, right? And you don't want to say on it, although lemons, whatever, you don't want to say on it, natural lemon flavor with other added weirdness,

[22:10] right? What you do is you say the lemon flavor, it has to have some component from a lemon in it,

[22:16] right? And then warmth. Wump, which W-O-N-F, with other natural flavors. And all it means is, is they make purified chemical flavors from natural sources and then dope it back in. So there's really no, I mean, my estimation, no advantage, really. That's what, like natural flavor versus artificial flavor, uh, like unless someone literally is doping something with a poisonous

[22:44] flavor, really means nothing to me. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't really care. Like, I care, does it taste the way I want it to taste? You know what I mean? That's all I'm saying. Yeah, he was saying nothing that's labeled cherry would ever have cherry in it. Benzaldehyde. Yeah, it depends on where they get it. If they get it from a natural source, then it's a natural flavor. You know what I'm saying? And then if there's like one molecule from a cherry somewhere in there, then you're good. You know, it's like, it's an absurd thing. It's an absurdity that, like, you know, we focus on, it's because, um, as soon as you have something with a

[23:18] label and then there's a rule for that label, then companies will figure out how to work around that label to make the product, uh, in a way that's good for the company to make that product that fits the letter of

[23:31] the of the law for the label. That's it, you know? Yeah, whatever. But anyway, I have no problem with flavors as long as they taste good. Do you like Apple Jack stars? The cereal? Yeah, love that. Right? But what do they not taste like? Yeah, that's why I like it, though. Yeah, well, there was, we've talked about this in the air before, I think, but there was a commercial a number of years

[23:53] ago where these, uh, the kids were like, these don't taste like apples and then

[23:59] stars was on saying, but I still love them, right? Yeah, that was in, what, 87? Something like that. don't know. Wait, you were on the commercial? No. no. It might as well have been done. be awesome. Might as well have it does. But like the, the thing is, the point is, of all this, is that people like

[24:15] apple jacks because they taste like apple jacks, not because they taste like apples. And like whether the flavor is real or not, you know, artificial or natural, uh, you know, you, you know, is not an, if what you care about is not having stuff that's been dorked and mucked with, then real or natural is not the

[24:33] label you should be looking for, right? Whatever. Uh, but Daz Clear doesn't care about that because she just wants her Apple Jacks tastes like Apple Jacks. Right? Anyways. Fruity rings. Stars, for a minute. if I can for a minute. The flavors of gummy bears that you like versus the flavors you don't like are which ones? I like the white ones. And that's it? I can deal with the red and the green, but the rest can go. Which of the ones you specifically don't like? Yellow and orange. Well, most people don't like yellow and orange of anything. Jack, what are your thoughts on this? Is that true? She's a believer that most people are not a fan of the yellow and why? The yellow you get too much of a lemon pledge flavor? I mean it depends. As a kid, when you got a bunch of yellow and oranges of anything, it was always the majority. Oh, yeah, I used to buy that. Red is what everyone wanted. Red ones, yeah. Yeah, I used to buy the, you know how Tic Tacs used to come in dual flavor packs, like they would mix. Maybe they still do. You know what I'm talking about? Two colors in one. I used to love the yellow orange pack. Of course. Oh, the orange Tic Tacs are good. I like those. Oh no. What about the tangerine lifesavers? No, I don't like orange flavored candies. Really? Do you like orange sherbet or sorbet? Yeah, I can, yeah. Do you like creamstickles? Because good. All right, because otherwise, we would have had a fist fight right here. I would have lost, but we would have had. No, you know, you have the same increase. I have the same increase, but like, I don't have like a high enough level of anger right now. You know, it's like, yeah. So I have a I have a simian crease. them what it means. What it means is that, you know how, what are those 2 lines? Anyone a palm reader here? No, no, clearly not. in your palm. Everyone has multiple lines in their palm. Yeah, and you usually have one that's like coming around your thumb and curving down and then you have one that curves up coming over from your pinky, right? I don't. I got one line that goes straight across. Oh, it's a semi-increase. So either I'm a monkey, hence to Simeon. And certain, you know, people with genetic dispositions towards mental retardation also have

[26:31] it. But WePop, you know, who I now feel for deeply because he had his Kickstarter delays with

[26:38] Nomiku from Thailand. And he's like, oh, in Thailand, that means that you're going to murder someone by

[26:46] accident. I was like, what the hell? Who the hell has like this specific A, like, palm reading thing? based on? I think like after autopsy stuff. Probably they were like, oh, that man has it and that man has it. And then they all murdered somebody. Case closed by accident. Yeah. But it's by accident. By accident. Specifically by accident. Specifically, they did it, but they were doing it by accident, which seems... They had gotten a fistbite. Oh, well, he didn't say fistfight. just adding this now. just adding stuff. No, I'm saying that's probably what happened. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. All right, last question from Brandon Bird. Also, a couple weeks back, you answered a question about storing flowers and other powder storage products. In a freezer,

[27:25] from someone who had an allergy concern. We have another question. That was who had the allergy, because it was a Sam? anyway, I'll look it up. You mentioned you regularly store high-end flowers in the freezer that you haven't noticed, any appreciable decline in quality. I'm wondering why that's so, considering that you have eyes against during baked starch products like bread in the freezer, because of the negative effects caused by starch retro gradiation,

[27:43] best Brandenburg. First of all, freezing bread is okay, freezing it. The problem is refrigeration storage isn't bread. So, and the general rule of thumb in the literature, the industrial literature, I don't want to say scientific, it's more industrial literature, on bread

[28:00] baking, and bread storage, is that a single freeze thaw cycle that you go

[28:06] through. And by the way, you want to freeze it quickly and you want to thaw it quickly. But that single free thaw cycle is worth about a day's worth of storage in terms of staling at room temperature, which is why if you're

[28:18] gonna, but once it's frozen, you don't lose anything. So if you're going to freeze bread, right? And you're freezing it today, right? Then it's like when you thought to eat it right away, it's like you're eating it tomorrow night,

[28:31] right? But if you wait till tomorrow night to freeze it, it's like you're losing another day after that. Does that make sense to us? So it's the freezing itself isn't the problem. It's as it goes in and out of freezing. The real problem is refrigeration temperatures. Okay. The other thing is that the flowers don't fit those rules at all because starch retrogradation only applies to starches that have been cooked, right?

[28:57] And, you know, hydrated with water. And then over time, those, um, the starch is like uh, recrystallize, right? And so then the water becomes a mound that goes stale. So starch retrogradation is only a problem in starches that have been cooked already and where you don't want to have them recrystallize. Yeah, makes sense. Okay. Uh, oh, and he also adds, uh, PS, going through your back episodes, I noticed that you solicited names for the product that became the

[29:26] sears all. Being late to the game. I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring in hopes that you come out with a larger format, tabletop broiler in the future. My suggestion, the Hellbender. Hellbenders are monstrous amphibians, the largest salamanders native to North America. They look scary and have a sweet name. I know you like salamander puns. Piper really used to like the salamander puns. And Hellbender sounds much better than Sally Hander. Sorry, pipes, or Sally Maddock. No offense. He says no offense to Piper. Not me, don't worry. Looking for Piper, whatever. I don't know. If I see him, I'll ask him. I'm looking forward to getting my all searing eye sometimes soon. Cheers, Brandon Bird. Okay. Michael writes in. Hello, Dave, Anastasia, and all mother masters of sound. Ooh, I like how you like that, Jack? Master of sound. Mother, master of sound. Is that what you said? Yeah, I'm all mad. No, and all masters of sound. Okay, all there. I like master sound, though. I like mother master sound. That's my next band. Mother Masters of Sound. I like that. Sweet. Someone make that band. Like, just do some garage, what's it called, called, GarageBand on your new iPhones. Oh, wait, do you want to tell them about your new movie? Jesus here. No, I don't want to talk about that. We don't have a name for him yet. Although Daniel Gritzer, who is here on Tuesday, came up with a sweet name. What was it? Santa's little hipster? Oh, yeah. Santa's little hipster. You know who we're talking about, Jack? No, he's new. Oh, I know who you're talking about. The new indie Jesus. Yeah, yeah, but he's not he's not Jesus related, but he is he is Christmas related. He's Santa's little hipster is awesome. And I don't want anyone, he's not a dwarf. Don't come back and say that we're, he just looks like an elf with like hipster elf. There's a reason for this nickname, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it has nothing to do with his height, so don't write in and say that we're bad people. Okay. How much salt do you add to food when cooking? Not brining? Is it possible to calculate? Is it based at all on water content and food? Also, does perception of salt really change when it is added at different stages of cooking? Also, can one calculate how much of a spice or herbed add when cooking? And ratios of one spice to another overall are there universal constants? No. I don't think so. I mean, I always, there's certain recipes that you know what's going to happen, and so you add definite percentages. So breads. You typically add a percentage, and every baker knows what percentage they are going to add of salt, and you typically then you're salting on flour basis, not on flour and water basis, because after it's all said and done, when you bake, you really care about the quantity of salt in the final product, not in

[31:54] the, not in the, in the dough, and usually your hydrations level out when you bake, right? I mean, just be honest. unless it's like something really, really dry. And so typically for a given recipe, uh, style, like a cookie or a bread, you'll use a particular percentage.

[32:09] And I used to use, you know, McGee told me about this writer, bread writer in San Francisco, who's apparently well known, used to work, I think,

[32:16] in Acme, and he, I forget his name. And, uh, you know, he wrote that in the old days, we would use like a percent, uh, a percent to a percent and a half assault, which is what I typically would have used in bread back in the day, bread and pizza dough, things like this.

[32:30] He says modern people are pushing up like over 2% on salt, which seems high, but, you know,

[32:37] anyway, but the point is, is that salt levels, I guess, have been rising up in a lot of these artisan breads over the past couple of decades, but yeah, so that has a definite percentage. And I think you can do the same thing. With other things,

[32:49] she made a noise. Me too. With other things that are kind of uniform. So you know when rice comes in, like it doesn't have salt in it. And so you can calculate, I haven't done it, but you can calculate a percentage that you're going to add, uh, of salt to

[33:03] a rice before you cook it. What I would do, if I did, I would take the rice that you make, I would take a batch, uh, make a batch, weigh it, and then you know exactly what the weight is

[33:13] of, of, uh, particular rice after you cook it and then do a percentage basis on that, like a percent or so, probably a

[33:19] percent percent too, whatever. But when you're dealing with things, Other things, especially things that have some their own inherent salt in them, you never know how much salt you're going to need to add because you don't know what the flavor of the original thing

[33:32] was, and certain things require more salt than others based on the levels of other flavors that are present in them. You know, does that make sense to us? And as to whether you should add it before or after, I think a lot makes a difference. If you add salt to bread afterwards, then you're a then you're a nasty Tuscan person and we all know Tuscan bread is terrible. It just tastes awful because they don't put salt in it. So you have to clearly, with bread, add it, add it before, before you make it, when you're making the dough. It can also make a difference, for instance, in bread when you add it, because it also changes how fast the yeast

[34:04] works. When you're soaking beans in salted water, the salt can change the rate of the absorption of the water into the beans.

[34:11] So like in certain cases, it makes a functional difference when you add the salt. But in other cases, I think it almost always makes sense to add salt as you're cooking. Oh, another one, meat. If you add salt to meat before you cook it, if you add it a long time before you cook it, then it can change the texture of the meat, right? So that's why if I'm doing a long cook of something like a steak, and I want it to taste like a fresh, like a broiled steak, I won't add the salt if I'm going to cook it for a long time because I don't want the texture of the meat to taste more like a cured texture of meat, which it will at the

[34:41] sauce there for a long time, well, especially when it's cooking for a long time. Okay. So there you have it on that. But other than that, or for instance, I'm sorry, if you're going to make a stock, you don't add the salt now, because you don't know what form you're going to use the stock, and you're going to reduce it, and then your salt level's all wrong. However, when you're using ingredients and you know that the ingredients that you're preparing it into its final state. Like, for instance, I'm making a sauce and this sauce is going to go on something else, right? I want the sauce to taste the right level of salt, so I'll salt the sauce while I make it. I also want the meat that I'm putting the sauce on to have the right level of salt, so I'll have the meat taste good if you were to taste it without the sauce. I think in general, if you follow the rule, have everything taste good on its own in terms of its salt level, when you combine them, they'll still taste good. I'm not such a fan of saying, I'm going to make one bland piece of crap, and then I'm going to put something really salty on top of it because then the 2 things are unbalanced on their

[35:32] own. And what if someone takes a bite of one and not the other? Or what if you have a piece of potato that you didn't salt the

[35:37] water? Because for some reason, you don't like to salt water. I don't know what's wrong with you. don't know why you didn't salt your potato water. But if you did that, right, and some guy got a big chunk of potato

[35:44] with a little bit of salt on the outside, well, that potato's going to be bland because the interior of that potato is not going to have any freaking flavor, right? Whereas if Pearson has a small piece of potato, they're not going to have too much salt because they have relatively more sauce on it.

[35:55] So in that situation, I would say, add the salt doll at once. You know what I mean? Okay. Would that make any sense? Yeah, all right. All right. Okay. What do you think, Jax? that okay? Yeah, think you got it. Oh, and same thing with spices. First of all, spices are even worse, like spices and herbs, because the relative pungency or power of the given spice or herb is wildly dependent on how old it is, where it was sourced, the variety it is,

[36:21] et cetera, et cetera. So there's really no rules. That's why when people ask for recipes and you give them a recipe and like, you know, it's got like, I don't know, time in it. I don't know how much time you need to add. Why don't you just chop up the time. And then when it tastes right, you're done. You know what I mean? But you're not allowed to write a recipe that says, add the amount that makes it taste good. You know what I'm saying? People hate when you write recipes like that. But I'm, I'm, like, I'm famous for, uh, with, with lanterns. I was well known for always just saying, make it taste right sucker, right? Anyways. Okay. I just fast blasted you something. We had a question from Andre in Germany that has gone unanswered for a while. Just... You sure we didn't answer that one? Because I have that one here right here. Like, it's the next one on the thing, but we sure we didn't we didn't get to that one? Yeah, he sent me a few emails here this week, so... Andrea with eggs. Hi there. I have a question for Dave on cooking issues. I'm from Germany and listen to your show regularly. I have a question regarding baking without eggs. I am not a vegan, but don't tolerate eggs, and all my attempts at baking cakes have been awful. Bunt. I like that word bunt. Bunt and sponge cakes turned out extremely moist and heavy, not light and fluffy at all.

[37:31] This might be okay in a fudgy brownie. and fudgy brownie like cakes, but I am looking for a sponge chiffon cake. I like, you don't like sponge, right? The word. No. No. Sponge chiffon cake that is usually just made with eggs, flowers, sugar, and baking powder. And that can be used for layering cakes with whipped cream as for Swiss rolls, kind of like an angel food cake, but with the yolks also being used. I've tried various egg replacers, but they don't work well either. Do you have any idea and a good recipe for that? Thanks for your help. Andrea. Okay. Well, uh, Okay. Uh, eggs are uh, a miracle, right? And so like they have various different functions and in different cakes, they they do various things. Obviously, they add a structure in the form of protein. Let me see whether I actually... They add structure in the form of protein, or in ancient food cakes, they add, um,

[38:25] in ancient food cakes, they add, uh, actual foam, right? So you've whipped them into a foam and you beat it in. So there's usually not a single egg and also there are emulsifiers, right? Because when you're adding egg yolks or something, you and fat. You add fat and emulsifiers, which can also, you know, improve the texture of cakes. So I don't think you're going to find any one single egg replacer that's going to replace all of the,

[38:48] um, you know, all of the different functions that eggs can perform even within a cake. That said, there are people working on this problem right now. Uh, notably Bill Gates as a big uh, investor in uh, a company that's doing, there's

[39:01] two, I think, main fake egg companies and they're both in California, of course. And uh, one of them is uh, already come out with a non-eg mayonnaise, a mayonnaise, right? What's that, Jack, do you know what this is called? Maybe you could do a quick search for me. Uh, and there's another, um, company that's working on eggs that can literally uh, be scrambled and eaten as though they were an egg. So they're looking to get the color right, the texture, and I guess also somewhat the flavor.

[39:28] Wait, so it's a non-eg product that can be scrambled? That's right Okay. And I've seen it. And here's the thing, right? Uh, uh, and I talked to Harold McGee about this, and I think Nathan Mirvold was actually uh, was pimped out for one of the, uh, one of the products where, like, they cooked it at his place and served it to someone

[39:47] else, and that someone else who's by no means an egg expert was like, tastes like an egg to

[39:51] me. Here's the thing. Like, when you're, when you're like, this is, like, a classic vegetarian argument against meat is that you can just make a meat replacer and that most people can't tell the difference.

[40:03] Well, most people can't tell the difference between a piece of meat that's been cooked to death

[40:10] and, uh, you know, a meat replacer that's been cooked to death because once it turns into a piece of shoe leather, who the hell cares whether it came from an animal or from a

[40:18] vegetable? You know what I'm saying? There is no one on God's green earth that can take and make something yet that I'm like, that tastes exactly like a medium rare rib steak. You know what I mean? That has the same freaking texture as medium rare ribsteak. You ever had that happen to you, Jack? No, of course not. No, no. They're like, but like if you want to, you know, serve like good mushrooms or something. I don't know. They're delicious. They're delicious. But like the meat replacing people are like, when I make an overly spiced chili that would have had

[40:46] overcooked, particleized, crappy hamburger meat in it, you can barely tell that you don't have the particleized, crappy hamburger meat. Well, that's not really a fair judge whether or not you're making a good meat replacer. Brooks's hamburgers are pretty good. They're not hamburgers. They good. They're a good patty product. They're a good patty product. I would eat it on a bun. In fact, have many times. By the way, how's this for a word? It's the vague. The vague? The 100% plant-based egg yolk replacement. Oh, vague with 2 E's. Yeah. A 2G's rather. Vague. Yeah. I don't know. I think with, you know, when you got Gates money behind you. You can't do better than vague. if that's the one. I think or maybe it's vague, vague. No, but it's like supposed to be like the incredible edible vague. Anyway. But the point is, is that I'm sure that you can make something that approximates a really poorly cooked, uh,

[41:42] overcooked, scrambled egg, especially if you're going to dump a bunch of Tabasco sauce onto it and eat it with hash browns. Then, yeah, you probably could. But replacing an actual egg, whatever. What I'm not talking about. talking about cakes. So typically when you're doing a cake, it depends on what you want to replace, you need the leaven somewhat. So you're going to need some way to aerate it. You can typically, you could do that with commercial leaveners, but in order to get that, um, spongy chiffani like thing, uh, you might want to, um, uh, you're going to need to add some sort of

[42:14] a protein to it. So, not protein, sorry. Although you could add some protein to it actually, as well. That'll mimic some of this stuff, but you're gonna want to add something that stabilizes the bubbles in it while it's forming because you're not

[42:25] going to have the egg structure to hold it together while it's baking. So what typically what you'll do in an egg replacer is you'll add some form of thickener,

[42:33] like some hydrocolid thickener, and xanthan gum, and xanthan gum will

[42:38] hold the structure while you are while you're baking. But there are some alternatives that you could try. I'll give you some. So Johnny Azini and I, years ago. And I think he actually published this recipe, so you can go look for it somewhere. I think he published it. We're working. We wanted to do an angel food cake style thing that didn't have any egg whites in

[42:59] it. And the reason is we didn't want to have that kind of protein feeling from the egg whites that you get from egg whites

[43:04] and an egg flu cake. So we used ISI or EC whippers, you know, whipped cream whippers to produce the foam

[43:13] texture, and we used methyl cellulose. So methyl cellulose, but not actually methyl cellose, methyl cell, which is a Dow brand of sometimes methyl cellulose, sometimes hydroxy

[43:21] propomethyl cellos, blah, blah, blah. But they have the interesting property that they gel when you heat them, right? So we added, I believe it was methogel, uh, the SG, uh, I think it was

[43:33] SGA7C. It's been a long time, but I think he published it. I can't remember exactly. It been a long time. But anyway, so you add this methocell 2 year batter. You put the batter in an anisi whipper, you charge it with a bunch of

[43:45] antu-o. You foam it into the pan, and you throw it in the oven. The bubbles are formed already from the from the foaming in the in the

[43:52] ECWhip, and then as it heats, it sets very quickly in into a gel. The gel holds the shape of the angel of the angel food cake like thing while it bakes. And then when it cools off, the starch holds it together. So you don't need the egg anymore. So that was the one way to do it. Another way you could probably do it. is by making a fluid gel, which I'm going to talk about a little bit later for a different question that comes in. You can make a fluid gel with, um, uh, you wouldn't want to use Agar because Agar will break in the oven at those temperatures, but you use low

[44:21] asyl, geland, which is a hydrocoloid. You can make a light, you know, pretty, you can make a pretty thick fluid gel, actually, and use that for the water base of the

[44:28] cake. You could even do it milk based if you wanted. Use that as the water base of the cake, and that will provide some structure such that after it aerates, the bubbles won't pop. But you might need to pre-aerate, or you could probably maybe get away with just the aeration from creaming. I don't know Depends on what kind of cake you're gonna make. you're going to make one with fat or if you're going to make one that needs to be aerated by whipped egg whites. If you're going to do something that needs something like whipped egg whites, you could use Versa Whip to whip together a liquid base and then set that with

[44:56] Xanthan or some fluid gel so that it doesn't break. There's a bunch of different things you could go through or you could just try a commercial egg replacers. Does this make any sense? Anyway, if that's, if you need more information, uh, you know, give me, give me a holler. I don't have any recipes off the top of my head. But again, look, Johnny Azini might have published that recipe we did. It was years and years ago, like 6 years ago or something like that. Chris Shetton writes in on Brian Penetration. Howdy, Dave, the Hammer. Oh, he could Joe in the tools. Well, Joe, you know, Jack. Joe did come back that one week, though. Yeah, Joe is around sometimes. Yeah. He's pretty famous. Yeah, my man Joe. Yeah. We've been brining our chickens, if non-kosher, since the oldie Cooks Illustrated article popularized it. We also Brian Fish to prevent protein bleedout. Typically for chicken or pork, we do a 5% solution for 12 hours or so. Works fine, no problems there, and we like the results. We believe we understand the process. osmotic pressure, higher, lower salt concentrations, et cetera. But we've seen a number of brines that include non-water soluble flavorings. Thomas Keller's chicken brine, for example, has honey. Okay, that's water soluble. But also bay leaves, garlic, peppercorn, rosemary, lemon, onion times, parsley, et cetera. Since these herbs and spices are not water soluble. Can they actually penetrate the protein and flavor of the meat? Even if they can, can they penetrate more than the surface layer of the fresh, fresh flesh? Even if so, which earth spices would imbue more flavor more successfully? And what's the mechanism? Thanks for all the great info on cooking issues. Chris Shelton, Shenton, rather. Okay, here's the here's the thing. Well, like a lot of that stuff is water soluble, but the most larger molecules. Salt is a relatively small molecule. And also, the interesting thing about salt is that salt, as well as acids, radically

[46:32] affect kind of how proteins in the muscles act. And so they can have a very big effect. And then the question is whether or not like they penetrate the surface or whether they don't. Most spices are really on the surface. Salt, there's some arguments on how much penetration you get on salt, but I'm going to refer all of you, rather than having a discussion of it myself. I'm going to refer to you to what a couple of years ago was not that widely read a blog as far as I can tell, but everyone should go take a look at it. It's a genuineideas.com. It's a guy. he's some sort of scientist. His last name is Blonder. Genuine ideas.com has done the best work on brining ever because he did a bunch, cooked a bunch of stuff, and here's what's cool. He cooked a bunch of stuff, and then after he cooked it and sliced it, soaked it in salt revealing dyes that could actually show the penetration of salt of an actual cooking, not marking penetration based on

[47:28] dye penetration, but actual salt penetration on the cut surfaces of meat. So I just, rather than going into it, I recommend you all read that. And then if we want to have some discussion about his section on brining,

[47:41] you know, then we can, but it's excellent. So go take a look at that. Matt Maroon writes in on foam. Hey, guys, I made an awesome hot toddy using mulled apple cider,

[47:52] angostera, bitters, dark rum, uh, Angostera, yeah, dark rum, uh, fat wash with brown butter and maple syrup. I topped it with La Burnadan's caramel foam. By the way, when you say LeBronan, it means Michael Lisconas is formerly a Bernadette, a great, great well-known pastry chef. caramel foam, and then give me a link to the recipe, and the recipe is quarter cup sugar, tablespoon water, 2 large egg yolks, 3

[48:18] quarters cup heavy cream, 3 tablespoons, uh, plus a teaspoon of whole milk, and a half sheet, uh,

[48:26] half half of a 2 gram sheet of gelatin. So basically you're making a gelatin stabilized whipped cream in the ISI. It was done in ISI, foamed out. bop. Okay? Okay, that's how Lisconas did it. One person who drank it noted that if you drink too slowly, the foam melts and leaves an unappealing mess floating on the cider. You know what? It's like, you know, your friends can't just accept the freaking drink you gave them. They have to like complain about the unappealing mess and the service. It's typical, right? You know, it's like, it's like I was like, uh, okay, so like when the iPhone was coming out, right? Uh, the, like, they were having problems with the store because I happen to be up. I was working. Actually, interestingly, on Sears all stuff. I was working on stuff when they went on sale, 3 AM my time, right? So I go on and the Apple Store is not working. I'm like, these guys didn't get their store up on time. I was like, oh, yeah, people make mistakes. You know? Your friends should get, people make mistakes, you know? I'm so much more forgiving now. But like after I've had to do after I've had to go through it, I'm much more forgiving of when things go wrong, you know? So, you know, your friend used to give you a big bad break on that. But anyway, yes, we're going to solve your problem anyway. Uh, the foam melts. It leaves an unappealing mess floating on the cider. Is there anything I could do to slow that down, like methocellulose or something? The foam already has gelatin in it. Three of the 4 of us drank it too quickly to be an issue, but I thought there might

[49:45] be nice to slow down the melting a little, if it were possible. So 3 of the 4 of you were reasonable. You just drank that sucker, right? I'm going to go back to what I said before. You're going to want to use some form of a fluid gel. So reinforced creams. So forget the gelatin. throw the gel bah, gone, right? Get rid of it. You're also about to go vegetarian. Well, yes, but not vegan because you have egg yolks in it if you want. Whatever you want. What you're going to do is you're going to take the water and the milk. Uh, and that might be enough actually. Now, you might need to take a portion of the cream as well. And you're going to set it in a one% as a one% agar gel. You're then going to blend that gel. Now you have to have enough of it. You have to make like 300 grams or more of this of this Agar gel. Uh, and then you get a, you could do like, you could do, uh, actually, you know what? one%'s kind of high. You could do one% and then just add enough cream back to it to get the texture what you want. So you're gonna make an Agar gel with this stuff. Then blend the hell out of it. Then, uh, you're going to mix it with the cream and the egg yolks, you're going to shake it, right? And then remember, this is a fluid gel, okay? So you're gonna need, and by the way, when you blend it, if it looks like little shards, then it's not blended

[51:03] enough. It has to look creamy. So then you put it in the whipped cream container. You flick the whipped cream, put your finger over the tip. 1st time doesn't matter. Second, 3rd time it does. Flick down, right, to make sure that all the product is slammed against the head of it, then dispense.

[51:17] And the Agar fluid gel will prevent meltout. I do this all the I do this all the time. Two minutes, but I'm not done with all the catch. I have a lot of questions this week for, yeah, so you can still... All right, Mildred writes in on ISI and Soda Street. And hello, everyone, at cooking issues. This is Mildred from Albany, New York with a completely different question that I'm going to try the 1st batch of mushroom ketchup that we talked about before this weekend.

[51:39] I want to pick up an EC Whipper, so I can try rapid infusions, but my housemates are more interested in picking up a soda stream who just posted a big loss.

[51:45] They're stock went way through the floor. hopefully they can pick themselves back up. Uh, as a trial. I know that CO2 isn't strong enough to do decent infusions, but are we doomed to multiple devices? Can one use a CO2 cart, which is one of the types of EC whippers for soda, and then an N2O cartridge for infusion or foam. If so, are there any specific accessories I can get to make it work, and what additional care and maintenance steps do I take to make sure I don't mess up with the whipper, thanks in

[52:09] advance, and keep it tasty Mildred. Unfortunately, you will need multiple things. It's completely un, uh, you will spend

[52:16] more, uh, if you make uh, any reasonable amount of seltzer. You will spend more trying to do seltzer in the in the whipper than you will just doing it in the soda screen. The soda stream is much more convenient for making things like seltzer, and then keep the whipper for whipped cream and infusions and stuff like that.

[52:33] You won't regret having them. They're different, but you can't really get one to do the thing for the other. I thought you said I had 2 more minutes. We're done. You can do more ketchup on Tuesday show though. All right, listen, I have to talk about, I did all this research on Christoph and cooking bass. Still in your head. And I did all, you know, talk about liquid smoke. What else am I going to talk about? We're going to talk about the way we cook brats with the food truck. We're finally going to get to the auto live step with Calvell and bread, custards. Oh my god, fennel. Oh my god. All this stuff. All right. So we'll get to it. Next week, the almost catch up show. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes

[53:28] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.

[53:47] Thanks for listening.