[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a 5 generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. This is Michael Harlan Turkell, host of the food scene. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwich, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org, for 1000s more.

[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Dishes, coming to your Live, from Apartis P3 and Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every

[0:38] Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined not with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. She's not doing well today. So instead, not as a not as a consolation prize, but, you know, in your own rights and as awesome folks, we have

[0:49] Peter Kim and Emma Bose from the Museum of Food and Drin. Yo, so, hey, by the way, I need to provide a visual for what we just saw when Dave does that intro thing. He has like sweat beating on his forehead. And you know that scene in Total Recall when Arnold Schwarzenegger goes out on Mars and his eyes start like bugging out. I was going to hope I got to be Quato. I'm just getting to be Arms Schwarzenegger with his eyes bugging him. mean, Quato is the guy to be. I like inburied in someone else's chest, I thought. No, no, no. This is more like your eyes are bugging out like Arnold Schwarzenegger in total recall, but that's the image that I saw when you were doing that opening thing. Do you know, I've used that reference, uh, like countless dozens of times teaching uh, sous vide and vacuum work, like the, whenever, like, I try to talk about what happens to a piece of meat, when you put it in a vacuum machine and it's warm, for instance, close to body temperature, even room temperature, I always try to bring up, uh, the total recall where Schwarzenegger's eyes are puffing

[1:45] out. Do you remember the noises he was making? He's holding, remember, he's going back and forth. It's like halfway between a person and a pig and it sounds very unlike the Schwarzenegger that we all know and love. By the way, I had a weird Schwarzenegger dream. Like 2 nights ago, I was hanging out with him and I was totally surprised that he, in the dream. also uses all of his own catchphrases, like at random, just at random times, he would just say, get to the chopper, like randomly. So I bet you, like, I wonder in real life whether he does that or not. I think my favorite source of Schwarzenegger quotes is from kindergarten cop. Oh, not a tumor? Yeah, not a tumor of, I can't remember what else there is. Well, I mean, that's the best one, not a tumor. Who is your daddy? What does he do? That's not a good one. Who is Shit Daddy? What does he do? All right. Joined in the engineering booth by Jack Insley. Why, what's your last name? White Burns. White Burns. Like, whenever I hear Burns, I think Mr. Burns. You get that a lot? You don't look like him. I don't know why I would think of that Emma can do a great Mr. Burns impression, actually. I wouldn't say the whole impression, more just the kind of shudder. Oh, yeah. I see that. I see that. All right, so why don't we... I've got a caller right out the gate. All right, call her right out the gate. You on the air. Hey, what's up? How are you, Dave? Doing all right. Uh, I got a question about um, back though firm for salami curing. Sure. Um, I'm using, uh, I think FRMC. I started with Paul Scene's book. I think he recommends FRM 52. I don't recall off the top of my head, but basically, as you, I'm

[3:24] sure already know, it calls for like a 12 or so hour incubation period. Uh, right now what I'm doing is I actually have a light bulb on a timer that I close in my oven door with all the salumis that goes on like X amount of minutes per

[3:40] hour. I keep between 80 and 100. But my question is, um, is there any reason I can't, um, put it in a water bath sealed up to do that or does it need to kind of have that drying out as well? Well, it's not just drying out. Is that, uh, Huh. I never had anyone ask me that before. Uh, I mean, you're trying to, you want the

[4:05] pH to drop. Now the lacto, the lactic acid bacteria or anaerobics, so you shouldn't need the oxygen. Maybe the thing is to stop the ox. Maybe the thing is to stop the exterior, uh, bacteria that are not, um, that are aerobic from, uh, growing during the initial period of drying out. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I was worried about the moist environment inside the bag somehow being a safety issue, but I don't know

[4:32] how it would be that much different than being inside the dry oven or hanging in

[4:37] a warm box, like a proofing box or something. Well, I mean, remember, it's, it's more. It's, it's, inside the bag, it's not only, is it, uh, you know, not drying it out. Remember, your humidity, at the beginning of this stuff is super high anyway. You know what I'm saying? Like, so at the beginning, you know, uh, if especially if you're doing it like in a, in a converted fridge thing, your humidity is are, I mean, it's been, it's been years since I've looked up the numbers, but your humidity is are in the

[5:05] 90s, uh, when you're doing your initial uh, fermentation. But if you put it in a bag, you've shifted it from the exterior

[5:14] being, uh, an aerobic environment to an anaerobic environment. And I don't know, uh, I mean, you know, you might be putting yourself uh, at risk for various things that way. But, uh, I mean, I can suspend it over the water on Iraq. Oh, that and then cover it with a towel, right? I mean, that would definitely work, but you'd be putting yourself then in a 100% humidity environment. Now, whether or not that's a problem or not. I don't know. I mean, like, look, I'll tell you what. Peter, next week, we're going out to hang out in Madison. Are we going to meet with the curing folks in Madison when we're out there? The guys think so. Yeah, I'll ask him. How about I ask them when I see them? You know, maybe they have some experience. I mean, obviously, I've never heard of me, obviously, look, obviously there are some lactic acid things that take place entirely aerobically underwater. I eat almost every pickle and every sauerkraut. Why not do why not do it in a bag for sausages? I frankly don't, I don't know. What I'm doing is working, but I just figured it's as a matter of convenience and absolutely stable temperature for a very specific amount of time.

[6:25] I just figure, you know, I just got the circular. I'm trying to use it for every thinking thing I can think of as you as you know how that goes. Yeah, I mean, look, if you bag it, you're definitely going to get blow off in that time because, uh, you know, and that's another

[6:37] interesting uh, point is that, uh, but of course, you're putting, you're putting a, a culture in it. So I don't know. I mean, I've had very, very, very unpleasant fermentations take place in vacuum bags, uh, you know, uh, in the mid to in the low 50s Celsius overnight, like hyper

[6:57] unpleasant, uh, smells, uh, in, in, uh, specifically in uh, pork. So, you know, we used to do whole pork shoulders and fat. And I remember because fat, fat, you know, is not, obviously, it's thicker than water, so it doesn't circulate as well. It's also not as good of a conductor, you know, it doesn't have as high a specific heat. So it doesn't you know, put as much energy out. So if you circulate fat, you have to be really super careful that you get really good circulation all the way around. And I had some stagnant points in my fat bath that I had these pork shoulders in. And not only that, the pork shoulders were touching each other in a couple places. And so it was total, not only a dead spot, but you had something that was roughly the size of a Chevy engine that, you know,

[7:44] was trying to get warm. And then, you know, couple that with the fact that even when it was regulating temperature right, it was only a 57, which is just a

[7:51] mere, like, 6 degrees above or 7 degrees above, like, kind of growth for this. And so I had a 10 degree temperature delta over the, over the, you know, the span of this

[8:01] bath, and the next day it walked in, it was like someone had taken like a really bad blue cheese and just, you know, put it into a pressure washer and sprayed the whole room with it.

[8:11] I mean, it stank to high heaven. And while I love the smell of blue cheese with the rare exception of some, of a, yeah, of a Chinese hand that I had

[8:18] once, and the, uh, and I think the really good, like, uh, Colonel Newsom's ham, some blue cheese is not usually a note you're shooting for in meat.

[8:25] And when it, when it, when it commingles with like that slight kind of putrescence that you get out of some fermentations,

[8:31] like unless you're eating Scandinavian fish, and I'm talking to you, Sir Stroming, not to the hot girl, which we all

[8:37] know did not smell that rotten from last week, I think you can, I mean, I know for a fact that unpleasant things happen in that. But if you're just using a starter culture, I don't know, I'd have to just talk to some people who have more than theoretical ideas about it. You know what I mean? Yeah, man, I'd love it if you get to the bottom of that for me. That would be awesome. Sure, no problem. And also, uh, that email about the, uh, turkey, uh, porschettas for me too. So I hope you guys get the chance to address that today. That would be sweet. Did that just come in because Nastasia, like I say, she's not, she's not here, so I didn't get, there's apparently I had 3 questions, but from this past couple of days, but I didn't get it. You want to just tell me the question now? Well, I was already told only one question, but call her. All right. I will tell you anyway. Kenji, you know, Kenji, he had an experiment he did where he did, and I did this with a chicken, not with a turkey, and I'll make it breed. Basically, break it down, grind the breast, pound them out, grind all the darkney into sausage, roll it up into a perfect torpedo, you know, with saran wrap, um, and

[9:40] then, uh, wrap it in the skin. sous vide it, or whatever, and then um, and then deep fry the whole thing, and then serve slices of it, which sounds amazing. I used to do that like all day, every day. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So my question is that since I'm gonna be serving it at a different home other than I'm preparing it in, is it gonna suck if I fry it at my house and then try to rewarm

[10:08] it? I mean, I'm not too sure about the, the properties of skin that's been low temp and then fried if it's going to hold a crisp like

[10:15] the, uh, like the Korean wings do. No, no, no, absolutely you will not. Okay, so it's going to suck. No, it's not going to suck. It's just not going to be like that. I mean, 1st of all, but usually when I do it, I couldn't remember exactly what you do. Usually I put the dark meat around the outside because it's the most, then you don't even need to brine the white. Usually, I mean, I do the opposite. Look, when you think about it, right, from a technical standpoint, you want the dark meat to cook to a higher temperature than the white meat, right?

[10:42] I mean, it's just fact, by about 2 degrees. So usually what I'll do is I pound out the dark. I can't remember which way you said it, and then I'll put the white on the inside. Look, I used it as one of my, it's my standard demo. Mills and I used to do like a, what's it called? Turduck in this way. right? The way that you're describing it, just get on the outside. But one of my standard demos was to bone out a whole chicken, put the breast in the center, pound out the dark meat,

[11:05] wrap it in the skin with meat glue, roll it into. And by the way, there's a skill and an art to doing torchons with plastic wrap. And, you know, I learned it from Nils Norin. And I'm not saying that, like, it's a good way to learn, but cooking issues in the low-tent primer cooking issues.com, which we're not updating anymore, but still exists, has a, like a,

[11:24] like a good visual thing on how to wrap a nice, uh, stiff

[11:27] torch, which, which should, uh, by the way, sink. That's how you know you've done it right. If the sucker floats the way up at the top. I'm going to have to check that out because mine are a little sketchy. I keep going back and forth between the freezer just to keep everything where it's supposed to be, you know? Yeah, if you use the, look, Nils Noran will make any, any, anything into it too, but I've seen him make the least tube like things into tubes.

[11:48] And so, you know, I learned his technique and it's really good. And then Erve, also from the French culinary. His magical secret sauce was he would, um, after you put the normally what would be the last wrap of plastic around the

[12:00] torchon, he would do one more thin layer of plastic and get this with a couple of butter knives rolled into

[12:05] it, and the butter knives just sink the torch on straight to the bottom of the circulator, which is a sweet trick, right? Sweet trick. Now, but back to your other thing. Super crispy skin either happens from long frying, right? Oh, you know, like double frying, typically in the Korean thing. usually in the presence of extra starchy crap that can, because it's all the water management. Like crispy skin is all about managing the water, right? So in some of the, in like the, what I think is like the super awesome Korean drum stick technique, because really I could give

[12:38] rats behind about the rest of the rest of it. Like, for me, like that, like, old style, like, whatever you want to call it, Kyoshan style, Banchan style, whatever you want to call it. you know, Peter, what do you like to call it? Which style do you, you don't care. He's what? Speak. Korean fried food. But the one the one that forms like a Morocco with the meat, like that's about like setting the skin at the right temperature, the meat kind of drifts away from the skin, which maintains

[13:02] its thing, and then you have awesome water balance. So, and then they put it with that kind of sugary craft. It also helps it keep kind of crunchy because it's like it's basically like, you know, a candied shell of awesomeness. I think that stuff's fantastic. But in a low temperature environment where you meat glued the skin to it, and you're getting all of your texture off the final fry. It's never going to be that crispy unless you batter it and deep fry it. Now, if you batter it and deep fry it, then you might have some good luck, but you're

[13:30] still, then you're relying on the fact that you have a thick crust to deal with the moisture management problem. Because when you're doing low temp, you're never overcooking the meat and because you're never overcooking the meat, you're always having something moist in contact with the skin and so it never lasts that long. However, like these torchons can be really good, even as a cold prep for a buffet. And the skin looks nice because you seared it once. And I did that once for, you know, my wife had to throw a baby shower for someone and I wasn't allowed to be there because I'm a dude and

[13:55] apparently like some people, like they don't let dudes at their baby shower. I wouldn't complain. Have you ever been to a baby shower? not missing out. All right, good. Well, so anyway, so like she didn't want to do much cooking and I wasn't allowed to be there to finish stuff off. So I did a bunch of cold prep with chicken and turkey, which is fantastic because no one's used to having a cold prep that doesn't suck. Oh, you're right. I agree with that. Yeah, actually, one of the one way I do roast chicken at home is I sort of dry out the chicken over a few different days,

[14:25] for over 3 days, so it gets this like mummy-like appearance. Yeah, actually. And then when it's super dry, it looks almost desiccated. Then I roast it and you get super crispy skin. And that's a good point. Like when I do low temperature on turkey for Thanksgiving, I'll do the low temperature and then I'll just leave it uncovered in the fridge for a while to flash off. And if you pull it out of the torch on when it's hot, you'll get more flash off on the skin and you're liable to get crispier skin

[14:47] anyway, but I don't think you're ever going to make it to Korean fried chicken land with that. Well, no, I was just using that as an example, but I mean, I could always just low temp it and then refrigerate it and then finish it in like a 500 degree

[15:00] oven, like right before. I mean, I'm sure I can get some oven space. They have like 3 ovens at the time. Oh, that's that's always a good call. That's always a good call because then you're doing what I always call low temperature cooking for insurance purposes, meaning the

[15:11] suckers cook through, so you don't need to worry about it. It's going to get kind of mildly warm in the middle so nothing really matters. And then you cook it like you were going to normally cook it in somebody's crappy oven, but you no longer have to sweat it because the

[15:21] inside's already cooked. I mean, that's genius move. That's like, then you, then you don't have to like ask them for anything fancy. You don't have to fry, you don't have to look like you're high maintenance. You just throw it in the oven and it comes out. They're like, why can't I cook like this? because, well, because you're not thinking straight. why you can't cook like this. And then I'll be the hero thing too. Exactly. Hero of Thanksgiving. What I like to hear. Dave, I love the fact that on the one hand, you are no longer a high maintenance guest. On the other hand, you're telling them the host of your host, they're not thinking straight, so... Yeah, well, no, it's only if they ask. It's only if they ask. of oil, everybody out of the kitchen. Yeah, you know what? The thing is also, like, if you're bringing something kind of like that major to the event,

[15:59] like they're seating, like they're seeding anything to you. You know what I'm saying? Like, they're like, oh, make some sides, and then you're going to have like the big old turkey thing. It's like, look, you get to say basically whatever you want, but it still is mega cool to walk in there and not mess with the fact that they are still rushing around to get their mashed

[16:15] potatoes done, walk into the kitchen for about 25 seconds, throw the thing in and come back like 35 minutes later and pull out something delicious. They're like, no, man. You don't even have to talk to him about it. You know what I mean? It's just like, you drop the mic. Did I tell you about that business idea I had? Check this out. I'm never going to do this. So someone do this. Here's what I want to do. Someone do this. I want to make disposable, like really like inexpensive, recyclable, maybe, disposable microphone things with just a simple accelerometer in

[16:42] it. You just keep them in your pocket and they have a little speaker in them, right? And then when you do something, you just you pull it out of your pocket. No one knows it's there. You drop it and it goes, and you walk away from it. And you buy like a pack of 5 of these like drop the mics and then, you know, you just always have one with you for when it's time to drop the mic and walk away. I think I hear your new kickstarter, dude. I know, but someone, you know, look, it's like before, it's like, look, I've just handed someone like

[17:09] a small, like a wheelbarrow full of money, just like send us something. That's all I'm saying. Here's the thing, Dave, in order to properly pitch the idea. You need to have the mic to drop at the end of your pitch. Well, that's what I'm saying. Someone has someone has the time to go make someone who has the time to go make the mic. You know what I'm saying? Like, they should just make it. And I'm just saying, send us something. That's all. You know, I'm a generous dude. I don't have time to, it's not, it's not in my, it's not in

[17:35] my, uh, you know, the range of things that we work on, Booker and Dex. I can't really devote the time to it that it deserves, that it merits. Yeah. anyway, good luck with the turkey. Yo, thanks for your help guys. Alright, cool. I got another caller. He's occasionally waiting. Sweet caller. on the air. Hey, Dave, how you doing? Doing all right. What's up? Um, I work at a manufacturing company and recently they tasked me with

[17:59] uh, designing like a full service kitchen for all the guys that work on our shop floor.

[18:04] And, um, and the owner of the company, um, I presented my initial layout to him and he thought it was

[18:10] great. I'm actually making use of some sous vide machines and stuff. And uh, but he wants me to uh, reuse some old equipment that we have lying around, which makes complete scent. Um, he's got like 2 or 33 com, uh, 3 compartment sinks that he wants to uh, use for sous vide. Um, I told them just to use polycarbonate bends because I know they're cheap and it's versatile. You can stow them and stuff. I was just curious, how would you like, how would you mount the controller to a 3 comp

[18:39] sink and have like one per compartment? And plus you got like, like water baths that are sharing, you know, walls in the sink and stuff, like transmitting heat between different temperature baths? Um, like, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, his thought is that you can actually drain the sink when you're done with your sous vide. and you're not dumping out a big bin of water and all that. Sure. Well, I mean, like, okay, so, um, Gerard, uh, Philip Preston from Polyscience, built

[19:07] one of, built something very much like that for uh, Gerard Bertillon from cuisine

[19:11] solutions, and and he loves it, right? So, you know, it's obviously feasible. The thing is, you're going to be dealing typically with the sink. You're going to be dealing with a much larger water, um, water situation than you would be with

[19:23] a, with a regular circulator, which tops out at around, so a regular 1000 watt heater

[19:30] in a circulator tops out at around 28 liters worth of water.

[19:34] So you need to measure kind of how much your your bigger sink is and kind of figure from there how much power you're going to need. Secondly, um, it a lot depends on how you're going to mount that heating head. So some people have done it, uh, where they mount, they like mount a standard circulator into a uh, into a sink. And if you're going to do that, what you have to be careful of is that you get full circulation from top to bottom,

[19:59] right? So a lot of people just worry about, you know, is the pump above the water and is the heater above the water, but that

[20:05] is, you know, because think about it this way. The pump typically circulates straight out and cold, colder water tends to sink. So if you have something that's circulating over at the top, you can have stagnation at the bottom and all the cooler water is floating to the

[20:19] bottom, so you're never heating all the way down to the bottom of your tank, especially if you have product

[20:23] in there. So typically, if you're going to have something, if you're going to do something like, let's say, weld, what kind of shop? Do you guys metal plastic? What do you mean? Yeah, we do, we do everything. We need metal, wood, plastic. I mean, like a ton of different things, so. So you're good to go. So what you, what I would do is like have, like weld like a bracket so that you could put the circulator pump in the sink if you need to.

[20:42] This is the simplest way. You can go much more complicated and really internal so you can mount a controller in a circulator and you could like weld a pump into it so that you never have to have something on the outside.

[20:52] It depends how much you want to put into it. But, um, you know, I have seen people weld brackets and then have the circulator fit in that

[20:58] way if there's a problem, you're not ripping a controller that's built in out of the sink. It's less work you have to do. It's a little more not as built in, so it's a little bit bigger, the pain of the butt, but it's also easier to sanitize because you can remove all of the units. You don't have to worry about a flow through pump. Now, back to the sink itself. Usually, in a, depends on what kind of 3 compartments sink that you have, but most of the time it's not like an actual partition, in other words, just a piece of metal, typically, uh, you know, you'll have, is

[21:24] it or is it like 3 uh, things that are sunk into it and you have like a good like half, 3 quarters of an inch uh, lip in between the

[21:31] compartments? Uh, I don't think there's an air gap. I think it's just metal and then it's just a metal divider or something. I don't think it's actually like a like a U shape or anything. Right. Well, then you could always just make, if you want. Uh, like an insulated metal kind of saddle that you can mount the 2 circulators to, that'll slip over the

[21:50] panel, and that'll provide enough insulation to stop too much cross-talk between the 2 and provide an easy way to drop 2 circulators into the sink without modifying the sink.

[21:58] Do you understand what I'm saying? Like a, almost a... And that, you know, that's going to be maybe the easiest way because it doesn't require any kind of actual modification of

[22:07] the sink unit itself. It can stay where it is and like everything else can be done in the shop. What I would recommend is putting some spray insulation on the inside under the other parts of this sink so that you're not losing too much through the bottom of the cabinet. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And then for evaporation, just do some custom lids with a cutout for the controller. Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't use those ping pong balls. I think they're a pain in the butt. I've never met anyone who's been like, you know what? I'm really glad I used those ping-pong books. Uh, you know, I think like those, like, uh, I think were sold as a bill of goods to chefs, a sign that was good. I think it's really awesome when you're doing stuff that like is really nasty with really nasty volatiles, like if you're electroplating or

[22:43] something. Fantastic, but for cooking, no. Like, uh, like a, you know, just like a modified, like Lexan, uh, lid. And, you know, depending on how fancy you want to go, uh, you can, you know, like, I've seen people make little, like, hinged portions of

[22:56] it so you could go in and get portion by portion, uh, you know, like, the nice thing about

[23:00] snakes is you can drain some water, and then you can just pitch ice into it and, and, uh, and drop the temp down or you can, uh, you know, what you should typically do

[23:08] is, uh, is drain the water, let it sit for a couple minutes, add uh, regular room temperature, tap water to it, let it sit for a couple of minutes, and then ice it down.

[23:16] You can do all of that under circulation, which makes it a lot more efficient. Awesome, awesome. Well, I'm actually really stoked about it. So that's really good, helpful information. I just found out too that we have like an animal supply of liquid nitrogen. So I'm going to check with our supplier, make sure it's food grid, and then go to town with that too. Yeah, you know, most of it, like most of the people who supply it supply it also to kind of medical places. So the product itself is all good. It's a question of the filling apparatus and the tank they put it into is usually what

[23:47] the what the dealio is, but most of the time you're actually okay because it'd be harder for them to, you know, give you something that's ruined than not. In most cases, not always, always check with them. They don't usually call it food grade, they call it medical grade. Okay, all right, awesome. Thanks so much. Super. Let us know how it works. All right. So I have another call. All right, all right. We'll take the caller, you were on the air. Hi Dave, how's it going? Going all right. Hey, I'm looking to try and make the duck prosciutto

[24:18] and Roman's book. And I think I called for, you know, hanging at somewhere between 50 and 60. Where the heck would you do that in New York apartment? The fridge is going to be way too cold. I feel like the rest of my apartments way too hot. Um, well, can I, can I try it either way or what, what would you suggest? Try it. What do you have access to? What do you have access to, equipment wise? Um, a circulator, um, uh, I think that's kind of the main thing, but yeah, just in terms of the hanging, I guess. Yeah, okay. Well, I don't actually, frankly, know how, what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know how sensitive. uh, it's going to be to uh, the temperature, like, so, you know, a lot of times what'll happen when you're

[25:07] doing, when you're hanging something is that, or when you're fermenting or curing or anything, anything you're doing, right? is that a number of things are going on, you're drying the product out. In some cases, there's bacterial fermentation going on, but there's also a lot of enzymatic activity that's going on. And in any of those situations, you're going to be affected by both the heat and the

[25:26] humidity, and it can affect not only the length of time, but also the flavor that's going to come out of it, which is why American country

[25:32] hams. We're talking about a lot of enzymatic activity in the meat, along with the drawing. The higher temperature products are going to have kind of a different, you know, more robust, kind of more American flavor. Now. So point is, you'll probably be able to get it done at a lower temperature, but it might not be the same.

[25:48] Also, you won't, you know, what humidity does he recommend, you know? What humidity does he recommend? I forget. I don't remember, and I'm not sure if it's even noticed, be honest. Yeah. So, I mean, depending on how, you know, I mean, I feel you probably don't have the space to get a wine cooler and use it

[26:09] for, uh, and use it for curing meats, although it works quite well. Like one of those little vino temp kind of things. Yeah, like, you know, one of the ones that, like, I have one that holds, I think, like, I don't know,

[26:21] like 15, 16 bottles, and I use it, like, I use it. I never have that much. Actually, maybe it's 2 cases. don't know. I never have that much wine in my house because I don't collect like expensive wines, but I also use it to store my cheeses when they come in because I don't like to refrigerate my

[26:35] cheeses, and I'll use it for meats that I'm, you know, holding. Um, and you so you could use something like that. You might be able to literally just, uh, like throw some ice in the bottom. How long do you have to do it? How long do you have to keep it? Uh, I think they say about a week or so? Maybe, maybe two. I mean, you could build something. Depends also on how handy you are. Like, you could build, easily build, like, with a penalty A, like a thermal electric, because you don't need to move that much energy out, right? So you could probably pretty easily build something that would hold the right temperature inside of like a

[27:13] cooler or even something you made out of Styro. It's just a question of like where you would keep it. Like, would you, like, hide it in a closet somewhere? But it would be, you know, it wouldn't be that difficult for, it wouldn't be that difficult for you to to do. Uh, I'm trying to think of a way that doesn't shat. you could easily do it if you shaft your fridge but then you can't keep anything else. That's not really a valid solution. I wonder if there is any commercial enterprise that you could sort of tip

[27:40] them, tip money their way to be able to use a little corner of their, like, walk in or something. The problem is, is when you can't put something that they don't. No, the laws are all nutty. Got a tweet in from Elliot Papineau says a dorm fridge with temp humidity control. might be a good way to go. Yeah, if you have the space for it, like, that's a great way to go. Elliot. like, you know, you get one of those little fridges. It's not going to hold that much. But then from Auber instruments.com, you can get really cheap kind of humidity and temperature control stuff and just kind of keep it, bup, bup,

[28:08] bup. you'd be putting it in a cooling phase rather than the warming phase. So you wouldn't have a heater on it. You'd have a cooler on it. Then if you, you know, a really slick, like if you wanted to raise a temperature above ambient later, you could throw a heater into it as well, but like, yeah, that would, that, I mean, that would clearly work if you have the space for it. Like the thing is dedicating a closet to it. You know, it's not going to be going on that often. So you might be able to get away with it in a closet. The closet's not going to get too hot. I mean, I know that for a fact with the wine cooler because I've kept a wine cooler in a closet for, you know, over a decade and it worked

[28:38] fine. Yeah, I mean, I think I think the question just comes down to how much am I going to be doing this? Am I going to get really into it where there's something that I'm going to, you know, constantly be doing and then it's like,

[28:50] 0 yeah, just buy the fridge. That's no problem. But yeah, I mean, that's a good point that you can store cheeses and other stuff in it to, um, that might kind of make it worth the, the space. Also, falls coming on. So what I would do is do it like fairly close to a place. Maybe you can crack a win. If you're anything like most people in New York apartments, it gets hot as heck because they have those radiators and the radiators can't be

[29:10] adjusted and so like you have to open your windows in the middle of the winter. Are you like that? That's exactly the problem. Yeah. So the good news about that is you can find a place in your place that's cold enough by putting it close enough to a window, like, you know, in a box with some screen over it, really cheaply, and figure out kind of whether you like it or not, or whether this is something you're going to do, and then before it gets like really hot again, then you can invest in a, in a, you know, in a more

[29:37] permanent like dorm fridge rig. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, so I think that's a good idea. Yeah, always good to test the waters, but or go the other way. The other way, the other way, and I've done this many times, is just jump right the heck in, spend all the cash, and you're like, well, I got to do it

[29:51] now, because I devoted all this time and energy to it. I got to do it now. That's how I learned to play bass guitar. Like, you know. You know what I mean? I done spent the money. Of course, that was back when I couldn't afford to like lose that kind of money. So it was like, you know, you know, it's like. Yeah, that would be a sufficient gamble kind of thing. Yeah, you have to make a big enough investment in time and or and or money that it's it's a personal failure and embarrassment if you don't actually see it through, you know? So Dave's advice is to take a high interest loan or pawn off some very valuable,

[30:22] you know, family duels and then take it up so that the stakes are so high that you must go through with it. Well, I mean, that's actually, interestingly, that Peter interpreted my advice that

[30:33] way because that's exactly what he did with the Museum of Food and Drink, basically, is he took an extremely, like, huge gamble and, like, quit a fine lawyering job with, you know, kind of good benefits and salary to start the museum of food and drink with absolutely no

[30:49] guarantees, which I forever appreciate. So he did exact, he actually did take my advice that way, and here's here's where he is today, right? True? Thanks so much. I appreciate it. All right, thank you. All right. Well, with that, before we go to break, why don't we discuss why Peter and Emma are here. So, Emma, you want to talk? Yeah, sure. I mean, I think given all the discussions of sausages and turkeys and

[31:12] turduckens, this is actually a great segue to quickly plug our upcoming event this Thursday here in New York. MoFad Round Table, the future of meat. We're bringing together 4 panelists who represent a wide variety of views on meat eating and whether we should eat meat, how we should produce meat in the future. We've got a Peter singer. Or whether we should produce meat in the future. That too. We've got Peter Singer, the eminent philosopher and author of animal liberation, among many other publications. Another philosopher named Mark Budolfson, who is currently working on a volume on food

[31:44] ethics, to be published by Oxford University Press, Isha Datar, who runs a nonprofit called New Harvest. They advocate for cultured meat and various varieties of so-called in vitro meat and think about sort of the possibilities of meat futures. And then finally, Heritage's own Patrick Martins, who recently published the Carnivores

[32:05] Manifesto and also runs Heritage Foods USA, which is a purveyor of ethically and sustainably raised meats.

[32:12] And don't forget there's some schmuck muttering the whole thing. Oh, yeah, this guy who's sitting right next to me, Dave will be there as well. So if you are in New York or the area, we would love it if you could come, tickets are at

[32:22] meet.mofad.org. And again, it's this Thursday, the 16th. Meet like get together and meet like the stuff. Meet like the... Web Jackson. Yeah. M-E-A-T, that move at.org. Yeah, unfortunately, Peter is going to do the introduction, so I can't go, Peter, Peter,

[32:41] Peter, singer. vegetarian philosopher, right? Because he's like, he's never probably introduced that way to his life. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's your job, man. Yeah. But Peter Singer. interesting. Yeah, he, against eating meat on the grounds that if you don't believe in

[33:03] racism, then you also shouldn't believe in eating meat. I mean, it boils down to like, you can't distinguish between animal suffering. In other words, suffering is the thing. You can't distinguish between suffering of animals and of people in terms of value

[33:20] judgments, and then says, well, back in the day, we used to make differences between different groups of

[33:25] people, and we don't do that anymore. So blah, blah, blah. My being relatively, it's kind of a utilitarian plus bludgeoning you with your own sensibilities kind of argument about not eating meat, which is accurate or

[33:36] inaccurate. I would say so. Interestingly, he doesn't argue that the suffering that animals and humans

[33:42] experience doesn't necessarily the same, but he does argue for equal consideration of suffering for living beings.

[33:49] So it's not that the pain that a human might experience, who knows that there's a future to be

[33:55] lived, upon the knowledge that he or she might be killed is the same as the pain that an animal might experience, because perhaps the level of sentience differs there. But they're still, he argues, a fundamental interest in life that all living things share. Yeah, sure. And it, yeah, definitely not in not equating the two, right? The animal suffering and the human suffering, but denying us as

[34:19] people the right to draw lines of distinction and treatment on when we recognize suffering

[34:26] as occurring, right? And then, but, you know, then he's interesting. He's like, you know, and they're like clearly probably not a food dude. Just saying this because like in a couple of the references in the book. He, like, especially for something as, you know, not important as eating the animal, you can

[34:41] kill it. You know what I mean? Like, he almost seems in some places. been years since I've read it, but, you know, some places are like, we're not talking like, you know, leather shoes, I can see even more than eating it.

[34:50] I don't know what the guy sounds like. He probably doesn't sound like that. He's Australian, for one thing. Oh, jeez. I can't do an Australian accent. Well, I just do it the same way I do New York. anyway, it doesn't matter. But it should be an interesting Patrick on the panel. This will be great. Oh my god. Patrick's Patrick's going to be like, meat's so delicious. Like, so he's going to say the whole time. That's your Patrick and impression? No, Peter does the Patrick impression. Peter, get your Patrick. Peter, do your Patrick impression. Well, no, he's just saying, like, if you go over to the state check, You see the big line of people waiting for the hamburgers. You're not going to tell them to stop eating meat. It's not possible. That's pretty good. It wasn't bad. Yeah, Peter's got that. Let's take a break so we can squeeze in some more questions. All right. Well, come right back with more cooking issues.

[35:56] White Oak Pastors is the only farm in the United States. It has its own USDA inspected Red Meat Abattoir,

[36:14] Or slaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected poultry Abattoir, a slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high

[36:23] quality, meat, and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land, stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. More information, please visit our website, whiteoakpastures.com. A scale of one to 10, Dave. How much do you love that commercial? 10. 10. And I'd like to see Peter Singer come and tell that dude not to use his abattoir. You know what I'm saying? I like to see that happen. I'd like to see Peter Singer come and tell that guy not to not to do his beef and poultry. Well, we're hoping some farmers will come to the debate, so. That guy's voice. I would buy, like, I told you, the only thing I don't like about that is why I only up to Princeton. What's what are we, dirt? What are we, dirt? Anyways. All right, we have a caller, caller. you on the air. Yeah, Dave, 2 or 3 weeks ago, you very briefly mentioned your recipe for

[37:21] doing combo dashi in a circulator. Could you give me the actual recipe? Ooh, yeah. I mean, look, I would look at the, um, the key thing with combo, a couple of key things with combo. One is obviously the variety you get, because they are very, like, extremely widely in terms of not just the amount of umami they deliver, but the flavor they

[37:41] deliver. Second thing is, um, the 2nd thing, I mean, obviously how it's how it's cut up, I did studies on that as well, but, uh, temperature and time. So, you have a circulator? Okay, so the best, I mean, the best results I got were in the

[37:58] bag circulated. Although you could probably do it without the bag circulated. got to make sure that you don't get little pieces sucked up into the circulator. It was it was either 60 or 70 C. I'd have to go back and look at my, uh, at my numbers, but it was 60 or 70

[38:13] C, I think, for, like in the area of an hour. I did longer, I did shorter, I did higher, I did lower, but to go back on cooking issues and just search for combo. Those were the numbers I got that, uh, and like it wasn't like by a little bit. It was by a lot. And we went through also all the different varieties that we could source here in New York, but my memory is too thin to give you the

[38:36] exact, the exact stuff on it, but it was, we have I have like 2 or 3 posts on Kambudashi, all with numbers and photos so you can kind of see how it looks. And then obviously afterwards, I can... Can you use website you're talking about? Yeah, I'm cooking it. It's still up there. Like I say, we haven't like, it's all archives, so it's, you know, it's not a living document anymore, but it's still there.

[38:58] if it's not there, I can go research it. Just give us, give me a tweet back and I'll go figure out the exact magic numbers again. All right. And then I think you just, so it depends on my 2nd question. What's, uh, what's your favorite, favorite place in the store is wildly expensive Asian ingredients and have some idea of getting what you're paying for? Ah, well, I mean, for for Japanese stuff, for food, I mean, I used to source, well, I was getting that stuff directly from kind of

[39:25] true worlds, who was my seafood supplier. So now, you know, I don't have any more like a super fantastic Japanese source. I guess, you know, for foods. I tend to go to the same markets that we all kind of go to here in

[39:41] New York. But, um, I don't know, you mean online or in in the city. I know that if you go out to, where do you go for stuff? Emma lived in Japan for how long? A couple of years. Yeah, so where you go? I've gone to Mitsua in New Jersey once or twice. And I mean, selection is great there. It feels very much like a grocery store in Japan. But often I don't make it out there. So I usually just go to sunrise in the East Village. Yeah, but you know, again, like what's weird about that. If you don't speak, like, they don't necessarily think that you really care. And so they're not really gonna like, like worry about whether you get the best, this or that. Like, I've never purchased a good, uh, uh, solid, you know, katsobushi here ever. You know what I mean? I've gotten some decent misos. I've gotten, I've never gotten a nato that I thought was worth spit here in, uh,

[40:29] in, in New York as opposed to the one I had went over over in Tokyo. You have any good web sources, though? No, I actually don't really buy Japanese food online. I can look into it. I'm sure those... Now when you look into it, and then tweet, tweet, what you should do is follow also at MoFad, which is our Twitter account for the museum, and Emma will tweet out for you a good source

[40:46] for that stuff. or we'll find someone who knows and we'll tweet it out, but please follow at Mofat so that you can see Emma's response, right? Yes, please. Yeah. All right. So we'll look into it for you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay, so, uh, Peter, uh, Emma, why don't you plug what you came to plug before we get ripped off the Oh by the way, before you do, we did a catch up show last week on a Friday and it's now up, right, Jack? Sorry, yes, it is. And we might have to do another catch-up show. We might need another ketchup fill, which is fine. You know what, though? I would prefer to do ketchup shows on the questions that are written in and like always always handle

[41:20] a live color because I like having live colors. Yeah, I would prefer to do a ketchup show with a ketchup sponsor. That's just me What, did you do we have a ketchup sponsor? We don't yet. Nothing has come through. Open call. You know, I just did a side by side of Hunts versus Heinz yesterday. Oh yeah? Yeah. What was the takeaway? Well, the Hunt's clearly the texture not as good as the Heintz. Have you had Sir Kensington's? with one of the founders of that company. So have you? Yes. How was it? Yeah, it's good. You know, I mean, I have to admit, I think, you know. Does he wear a monocle? Yes. Wait, guys, I just, I have to do this real quick. All right. You the lad. are we listening to? Yeah, it's a radio network, sir. Very good. I'm Sir Kensington and you're listening to the Heritage Radio Network. That's Total Monaco Man. That's Total Monocle right there. That's him, he was here. And did he wear a monocle? Of course. Sweet. I kind of like I kind of like it. Although it seems like, did you know Jack? Because I know these 2 know it, that in Spanish, the word for Worcestershire sauce is English sauce, what? Yeah, really? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Inglesi. Yeah. I was like, what the hell is saucing glacier? They're like, oh, Worcestershire sauce. Well, and in front, the French sauce, so Español is just called that because there's a tomato in it, but there's some tomato in it. Like tomatoes come from Spain? For them, apparently at the time, yeah. But, you know, the thing is, uh, that, like, does Kensington's have, like,

[42:48] a, a, a dose of Worcestershire-like flavors or anchovy in it? I can't remember. Because, you know, the characteristic note in Witcher sauce is anchovy. Yeah. Which is just delicious. It is amazing. You know what I do not like? Fake wish. Like, why? Like, the Worcestershire, or whatever they want to

[43:05] call, the fake one that doesn't have the anchovy in it, like, has some of the notes of Worcestershire sauce, but ain't real deal homie stuff. You know what I'm saying? Isn't there like a tamarind, a strong tamarind note in Worcester too? I think so. Look, it's a really interestingly complex condiment to be a mainstay in the American

[43:21] pantry, right? But yeah, but people give us a bad rap. You ever have the the gentleman's relish, the pepper. It's basically a compound butter of anchovies, black pepper, and butter. That's an English thing. People give the English a bad rap, but they look, they love their chutneys. I'm talking prior to like this whole like kind of, you know, revitalization of British food over the past, you know, 15, 20 years. I'm talking to like old school. Like even with all the crappy stuff. They still had the, the, the chutneys, the the sauces, the relishes. I mean, you know. Great sauces put on their crappy food. Wow. Well, that's what you were saying. No, that's what you're saying. I'm interpreting. No, see, this is the same thing that caused you to quit your job. Like, you take, like, 3 steps beyond like what I'm actually saying. So why don't you talk before they kick us off the air, which is going to be very soon. Why don't you tell us, like, what... Yeah, so for any listeners that are in the Midwest, I'm a Midwesterner myself, we're going to Madison, Wisconsin next week, and we've got we're doing a fundraiser for

[44:16] MoFad out in Madison with 2 James Beard award-winning chefs and the underground food collective, and that's October 23rd. Dave will be making cocktails doing a demo. So if y'all are anywhere near Madison, Wisconsin. You should definitely get tickets. You can get them at Mofad fundraiser.eventbright.com. And you can also go on our Facebook. We put a post-up on that. So at the Mofad Facebook page. All right. And speaking of Wisconsin and brats, I'm going to do one quick one on the way out, and then we're going to have to catch the rest of the ones that I still owe you guys answers

[44:47] on and either a catch-up, you probably will have to do a catch-up show, but this one goes out to the Hashi food truck at cooking issues. Remember an issue where you covered brats or sausages in an emersion circulator with beer? Can you share the tips again? Yes. So, uh, what you do is, uh, you can do it in beer, but remember, if you're going to do it in beer, the 1st couple of ones you're going to come out aren't going to taste as

[45:06] brotty as the rest would, because you have to get the whole thing tasting like brats.

[45:10] You know what I'm saying? So you want like maximum brat and minimum beer at least at the beginning. So you can get... I don't know if you know this. And at Clefts Road, and also about New York hot dog carts. I've drunk the hot dog water from a New York hot dog cart before, and the sucker tastes more like a hot dog than a hot dog does. And I'm pretty sure they reuse the water day and day out and don't worry, it's hot. It's not bad. It's kind of like, you know, they like the secret, uh, you know, Chinese stocks that are made for 100s of years because the flavor is like, you know, they keep on like reinforcing it with fresh

[45:36] meat. I think that's one of the keys. And so, uh, you're not leaching any flavor out. So you have it in the circulator at like 140, right? So now you're not overcooking the stuff in the brats, you have it going there 140, pull it out, and put it over a flaming hot grill to put the crust over it, and it's never going to be

[45:52] overcooked, delicious, and beer brats, and forever, and awesome. really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? We made it for you once at a museum event. Yeah. Yeah. That was some tasty stuff. Right. And we also had a question in. that I know I owe you. Don't worry, I know I owe you. I got to talk about fermentation in the bag, and maybe we'll talk about that more when we get more information on meat fermentation in the bag, which I've never done.

[46:13] Next time on cooking issues. Thanks to listening to this program on heritageradio and network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website, orders podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage radio network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.