[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the

[0:06] soil, and dedicated to the creation of 3 Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane 5.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.

[0:36] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network and Rover's Pizzeria in Bushwick.

[0:50] I'm usually with Nostasia, the Hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Are we having a show next week? What day? What day is that? What month day is that? Um, I don't know, but I know we're not having a show. We're not doing this is our Christmas show? Sure. Why, because you're gone? what you're telling me? I think I think we're both gone. Jack, what? I'll be here, but I mean, you'll be here? Gee, should we do a hammerless show? Why are you still gonna be here, dude? I'm always here. Yeah, you know, but it's not it's not me, actually. My wife is an architect and, you know, she's like hyper hyper busy. don't think she's going to be able to leave until Christmas. Tell Christmas. God bless us, everyone. She's gonna be like, she'll be there all the earlier the next morning. It's like she's her own scrooge. She's her own Scrooge and her own Bob Cratches. So you're okay. don't know. I don't know what day it is. Well figure it out. Well, this may or may not then be our Christmas show.

[1:50] We can still make it a Christmas show. This show? Yeah right now. Christmas slash hot. Oh yeah, no. the 24th. Oh, wait, the Tuesdays and 24th? Yeah. Come on. 23rd. Maybe maybe not. I don't know. We'll talk about it. tweet it out if we're going to do it. Yeah? Okay. I know one person who will not be here. Who? I don't know. I really don't I don't remember when I'm leaving. Where are you going? You going somewhere nice? No, I already told you. Yeah, but they don't know where you're going. Do you not want to talk about it? I'm just staying out here. Just staying here. So you're not going anywhere. you're going to Connecticut. Yeah, but I don't know what day I will also be in Connecticut people, but thankfully, we will not be together because we need our alone time. All right? All right? Yeah, tell me about it. So you want to talk about our 12 by the way, call your questions. 2718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Got Jack in the booth today. Who else we got over there? didn't look when I ran in. Wyatt's here. Hey, why, what's up? Uh, can I just jump right before the show starts? I hate to keep doing this, but it's the big fundraising drive. We're almost done end of the year. And this week, we have a generous donor who's going to match donations. So it's like double bucks. Double bucks? Who's the donor? Yeah, it's a fairway market, it's going to match donations. I heard that they were like no other market. that true? absolutely true. Yeah? That's true. like no other market? She's like, what do I know? don't live anywhere near a fairway. I mean in the Hell's Kitchen. I'll make it to the Upper West side. I might as well be in Venus. Right? Uh, but I had a question for, I don't forget whether it was for Jack or for Nastasia. Now I forget what the question was. Maybe I should just answer, like, you know, real people's questions. Oh, I know. before I do that. Stas, you want to, we're doing our 12 days of steering. You want to explain it 12 days? Well, yeah, we're calling it Sears and Greetings. Yeah. Yeah. All right. But, um, you send in your videos of you and and your sears all searing something, and we may post it online. And then the prizes, if you... You get a Burns Madic TS 8000 for 10 people, and then Grand Prize winner gets one of those with a signed stairs all by you. And we're figuring out a way to post it before the thing ends, right? There's there's one up right now. Yeah? Yeah, nice. will check it out. You can go to seersall.tumblr.com. dot net.splat.org dot. That me,

[4:02] that, do you know I own? Nobody likes that, me. I don't know if you still own it. Oh, I didn't pay? Nobody likes me. you go. Okay, uh, these questions in. This is from BJD. May I have a rundown of the full goose for optimum cooling and storage of vacuum

[4:21] bags, sous vide meats? By the way, Bruno Gousseau is like the, so, you know, Gousseau and Joelle,

[4:28] no, sorry, no, sorry, not Joe Robuchon. Like Gousteau worked with Joel Robuchon for, um, uh, you know, to come up with the 1st kind

[4:34] of, uh, kind of widespread application of sous vide at the SNCF, which is the railway in France. Anyway, so that's kind of how he got into like the low temperature sous vide on the

[4:42] high end cuisine side of it, although it was for a mass market application of high end cuisine with the Joel Robuchon. But Bruno Guseau, uh, was kind of the, he's kind of the granddaddy of low temperature cooking, whereas if you actually talk about

[4:54] CV, You're talking about George Praluse, the Choquiere, who did the, uh, the foie gras for the uh, Tragro brothers back in France. So it's like, you know, they they compete. They're both, you know, like, I don't really know, probably, I met him once or twice. I know Gouseau pretty well. And so like, you know, he, I think they kind of maybe, they give each other a good natured ribbing, but I think they actually, they might actually dislike each other. I don't know. What do you think? You know, anyway, they're both like, like, you know, hardcore like French dudes. I love I love Goose soda. He runs a, he runs a company or, you know, big part of a company called Cuisine Solutions, uh, which they work here in the US. Anyway, Guso. So Gousseau has this theory. I'll finish the question first. Okay. I've listened to the back catalog twice, but don't recall the exact process of the full Gousseau. My Anova circulator has shipped, and I'm particularly worried about the safety of my toddler and pregnant wife.

[5:44] Uh, and then have you finished the low temp primer? No, and believe me, I'm not. I'm not going to do it. But I will answer any questions regarding it. You know, someday what I should do. You know what I should do, Stas? I should just do a, because I'm not gonna, I don't have the time to write now in this stuff. But what I could do someday, if people actually wanted it, is I could do like a low temp primer

[6:06] podcast, where I literally just talk you through all of the aspects of low temperature cooking that there would be in a, you know, on the

[6:17] primer, if I had time to write it. Um, and then we could, you know, update it as necessary, switching or out. But if there's any, if anyone wants the equivalent of like books on tape of

[6:25] the, uh, the, what do they call those things now that they're not on tapes anymore? Audiobooks? Audiobooks? If anyone wants audiobooks. If anyone wants the equivalent of a, it would be more like this because I'll be off the top of my head and I'll be like, you know, going on tangents constantly, but I could do

[6:39] a, hey, Hey, would you record it, Jack? Would we do it? Yeah, yeah. Maybe somebody could do a slideshow to it, you know? Yeah, somebody. Yeah, somebody with a YouTube video. YouTube. YouTube YouTube. Anyway, I got a caller on the line whenever you're ready. Oh, okay, okay. Let me, let me, sure. okay, listen. I'm gonna I'm gonna come back. I going to talk about the full Goosell. Let me just get this caller and then we'll come back. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, it's David from California. How you doing? Yeah good. Hey, uh, I wanted to get some strategies from you uh, on infusing French fries with flavor. Okay. What flavor? I've done the exact opposite recently, by the way. I finally made French fry liquor and it was delicious, but it went stale the same way. So like after it was stored for a while in the refrigerator, when it came out, it

[7:27] like, you know that, you know that cold stored potato smell? after it's being cooked? Like, you know how, like, when you get the, the person's like, do you want to take the French fries home?

[7:35] And you're like, I don't really want to, but I don't really want to have them have to distinguish between the leftovers, the rest of the leftovers

[7:40] on the plate, and the French fries are on the plate, so they stick it all in that styro, and you're tired when you get home, because

[7:45] whatever. So you throw it in the fridge and the next day you smell the french fries, we all know what I'm talking about here. That happened to the liquor. So I'm working on trying to get rid of that. But anyway, go ahead. So you want to, you want to do the opposite. You want to infuse some sort of liquid flavor into a French fry, right? Yeah, well, I make a baked potato stock that

[8:01] I use with mashed potatoes, and I wanted to get something like that into a French fry. Give it that real roast potato taste. Okay, do you own a vacuum machine? No, just a food saver. See, the vacuum machine would have been easy, because I've done that, you know, a lot with different flavors, like most notably vinegar, which also does a lot to change the texture of the fry because

[8:27] it delays the softening of the potatoes. So they're a little harder. But, And so if you had a vacuum machine, you would just cut the potatoes off, I would, and throw them directly into the stock, not into water, because they'll absorb a lot of water there, and that's like

[8:44] stealing like some of your flavor, right? So, um, the one downside, of course, of this, you might want to, what I would, hmm. Okay, let's think about this because you don't want the stars. You want to do the wash of the stars. So what I would do, probably, is cut them, do a quick rinse in

[9:01] water, uh, and then like salad, spin them dry to get them as dry as possible. that way you wash that initial layer of starch off the outside, and then and then I would stick them directly into the stock and let them and let them kind of soak. Now. That way you're also going to, you know, because they're underwater on our stock, you're not going to have the oxidation, you're going to be okay. Now, what I would do is then suck a vacuum on these things, like a pretty hard vacuum. Um, and that would kind of allow me to, um, that

[9:32] would, that would instantly infuse the, uh, infuse the flavor into the French fries. Now, I would say that you could do an ISI variant, but think of how many ISI cartridges you have to go through to infuse a reasonable number of French

[9:43] fries. too many. Um, So what I would do is probably get one of the, um, you know, your food saver bags, how you

[9:52] can, you can get them on a roll so you can make your own length. Oh, yeah, I got that. Yeah, I would make a really long one and stick the potatoes in the bottom, and now the thing is, is that you're going to have to figure out, uh, you know, you're going to need some sort

[10:07] of, um, anti-crush thing in there so that it doesn't think it's reached a vacuum before it has, because that's what typically happens in one of these, in one of these situations, is that

[10:16] it's very hard to get a good vacuum on liquids in one of these bags. But I'm trying to think of what you could stick into it that would prevent it from kind of instantly

[10:26] cell sealing as soon as the 1st little bit of liquid starts sucking up into those little straws. I don't know. You're going to have to play around with it. And then I would just cut it and suck it, cut it, and suck it, cut it, and suck it, cut it, and suck it, and keep on trying to get the flavor in, even though, you know, I've set up a 1000000 times that

[10:43] the food saver's not really ideal for vacuum infusion. It's really kind of the only it's kind of the only thing you've got here. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I guess I could buy a machine then. Well, that's kind of pricey, unless you can return it. Or, you know what you could do is the cheapest weight if you want to do infusions. If you want to do a bunch of these things is to get a refrigeration vacuum machine,

[11:05] a vacuum pump, like the equivalent of like a robin air, one of the kind of larger ones or, you know, there's a bunch of different companies that make them. And then you can just put a hose, you know, crush proof hose, you know, onto a piece of, you know, like Lexan or even acrylic, really, because you're not going to be doing alcohol in this

[11:24] situation, and then seal it over around vein Marie with like a sheet of rubber, suck a hard vacuum on it. And that thing is as good as a, it works as well as a as a pro vacuum machine. I mean, the vacuum's pump's not as robust and it's not as fast, but it will suck a serious

[11:40] vacuum and you can do it on, like, a 3 or 45 gallon bane Marie all at the same time, which

[11:46] is pretty awesome. And then you're only looking at like, you know, you can get one of those on eBay for like 150 bucks, brand new. So the short answer is that vacuum infusion is the way to go with French fries. Yeah, because they're porous. And so then what you do, right, is the flavor gets in, right? And then you, of course, you know, you boil it in the stock, not in water when you're going to do your initial boil, and then as you dry, the moisture will evaporate out and they'll leave all that excess flavor

[12:13] in. And so, yeah, you should get a good result. Maybe the other way to do it is, you know, completely desiccate the stock out and then make a spice powder out of

[12:20] it, but that's a real pain in the butt. Yeah, that was the other strategy I thought might work, but I

[12:27] didn't, I didn't know if you played around with that sort of stuff much. No, I haven't, but the trick is, remember, to boil it in the flavor that you wanted to taste

[12:34] like, and also, and that might actually, frankly, why, you know, before you go off and get all crazy, since you're going to be cooking these

[12:42] potatoes until they're kind of falling apart anyway, right? Because when you're making french fries, you do your initial, you do your initial blanch,

[12:50] you're really looking to, you know, cook them until they're dead, you know, just, you don't want them to shatter apart because you want them to stay whole while you fry

[13:00] them. But you don't want them al dente. You know what I mean? That, not how you're going to get the best texture out of it. And if you make a really rich stock. And boil the potatoes in a very rich stock. Maybe, you know, the French fries, maybe that's enough. Maybe you don't need to infuse it all. So what I would do is take a little bit of your stock and just cook a couple of

[13:17] French fries in it, you know, and see whether or not you get a good enough result. And if you do there, then you're done, then you don't have to spend any money at all. Because potatoes are pretty dang porous. That's why when you boil them in salty, salty water, they get salty, salty, salty. But of course, salt, salt is a tiny molecule, so maybe the stock stuff doesn't make it through. I don't know, run a test. Okay, that's enough for me to rent it. All righty, good luck with it. Let us know how works. All right, thanks, Dave. App appreciate it. No problem. Okay, so we're back to the Guso. Now, remember, where are we last left off? Bruno Gusseau, like the, you know, the granddaddy of low temperature cooking, as opposed to Prolu, kind of granddaddy

[13:55] of sous vide. So Guseau is working on this stuff. Now, learned many years ago, probably, you know, many, many, many years ago. like the 1st time that he did a presentation at WED 50. this is, I think this is before I was working at the French culinary. I don't know Gousseau, uh, did a presentation where, uh, you know, he basically said, hey, look, when you're cooking, um, a protein, uh,

[14:17] most most proteins, I think he's talking about like muscle meats, more specifically, you know, kind of mammal muscle meats, and also birds, but not, I

[14:25] don't, I don't know how he feels about fish. He probably says he specifically, like, you know, weird cuts like foie gras. you know, discuss. But anyways, in fact, says won't help, doesn't matter. But, uh, when you're cooking it, you bring it up at, uh, you ramp up the

[14:38] temperature. And then the way he explains it to chefs is more of like this kind of holistic uh, business where he's like, and you want to ramp it down at the same

[14:45] temperature as though that, as though that makes a difference to me as though I care about that. Really, the real argument, if you talk to him, you know, you just kind of accost him about it, is that the slower the ramp rate of

[14:56] chilling when you're working, the more liquids are reabsorbed by the

[15:03] meat as it cools. So there's an, in Gousseau's opinion, or Gousseau's research, he's seen that there is a kind of an optimal temperature of the meat for reabsorbing

[15:15] any liquids that have been expelled during the cooking process. And that optimum temperature. is lower than the cook temperature but higher than a chill temperature. So if you rapidly, rapidly chill a piece of meat, then you're not giving that meat the opportunity to reabsorb some of the liquids that it

[15:34] expelled and you'll have a less juicy piece of meat. That's the guso theory. And so what Goussot wants to do is have a more gradual cool down, but still get it cool within the time parameters of safety,

[15:44] all right? Now, this is not going to make a difference for things like eggs for things like foie gras or anything like that. For those things, you can just chill them, you know, whatever you want. But we used to run tests where we would, and so here's what Gusto says. Gousseau says, just pull your product out of the bath and leave it on the table, depending on the

[16:02] thickness. Let's say it's like, you know, an inch and a half , you know, an inch and a quarter rib steak or something like this. Leave it on the counter for, uh, you choose. It's like, depending on the thickness, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I think up to, I think he says you can go up to 20. I never do 20, but like that's what you can go up to. Leave it on the counter, right? And that's going to slowly let the temperature go down, right? Because the air is a very bad conductor of heat. Now I actually put it on racks so that it's getting air all around it, right? So that's the 1st section. Then the next step that you do is you put the meat, the bags into tap water. So tap water isn't refrigerator temperature. somewhere close to room temperature in the, you know, in

[16:44] the, in the 20s somewhere, like 20, or like 65, you know, if you're in Fahrenheit land, and you want to put them in the tap water, and you can let it run slowly so it stays at that, and that's going to rapidly bring them down to room temperature, and that's the 2nd part of the

[16:59] curve. And then the 3rd part of the curve is to throw them directly into ice water. And the ice water, you know, agitated ice water is going to rapidly, rapidly drop the suckers down to, you know,

[17:13] safe fridge storage temperatures. Okay, now, that's how he does it. And it guarantees, you know, for reasonably, you know, sized cuts of meat. It guarantees that the inside core is going to get cold enough fast enough, but it does the initial ramp down in a way that allows it to chill.

[17:30] So typically you do like 15, 15, 15, so 15 on the counter, 15 in tap water and 15 in ice water. Now, you know, could you do like 20 on the counter and then ice water? Probably, but anytime you ramp it, he's going to say you're going to increase the, uh, you're going to increase the amount of moisture that's reabsorbed. And we, I used to laugh at it, but then we ran tests and, you know, turns out like, you know, side by side. Most people pick full good so in terms of the taste. And that's why we call it focus. So, um, I know another way to do things is if you just throw it in the fridge, it's going to ramp down slowly because in a

[18:07] fridge, you have very low, uh, you know, heat, you know, transfer because of the, it's just air. But there's a bunch of problems there. A, you're shafting everything else in your fridge because you put a hot load in your fridge, and B, there's no guarantee really that the stuff's going to get down to refrigerator temperature and a reasonable amount of time.

[18:22] You know, this does not, especially if you're stacking bags on top of bags. So if you're really worried about safety, I wouldn't worry about doing the full gousseau in terms of like whether it's going to get safe in time, I think that's going to be a lot safer than it is just throwing the bags in the fridge and

[18:35] having done with it. What do you think stuff? Good. Uh, okay. Now, he also, he also writes, um, thanks for answering my questions last week. I did not put any Angostura turdballs in my punch bowl. Remember we were talking about like, yeah, so he did not do any turdballs. And then he says, as my other question, I feel I wasn't clear enough on my aviary and maraschino ice

[18:57] question. Remember, there was a maraschino liqueur ice question that we had. Um, I think Dave thought I meant the drink that comes in a hollow ice balloon. I did think that. Though a cool presentation, it wasn't what I was after. The Martinez I had came with pebble ice, which seemed to be made from maraschino liqueur. When this ice melt, it dries the drink out as it makes it taste drier. I guess from a masquino. Would Dave happen to know how they freeze the liqueur? And is that, in fact, what they're doing? Well, you can look, you can freeze. You can freeze any dang thing. It's just, uh, it's not going to, You know, it's going to melt unlike normal ice and it's going to be really cold. I haven't seen this presentation, so I don't know what they do. But, you know, obviously the more you water down a liquor or liqueur, the more you are, you know, the less you have to overcome the, you know, the

[19:44] fact that it doesn't want to freeze. So, you know, you can use any combination of cryogens to chill, um, liqueur down to the point where it's frozen, you know, LN, it's possible to do

[19:56] with dry ice, but it's real pain in the butt. Um, so could you do it? Yeah, you could do it. But, um, I don't know. I'd have to I'd have to see. Someone will have to email me a picture of the presentations. I have to see how it looks. If I saw how it looked, I could determine how they did it because I can see how kind of how the melting down worked. But I don't know specifically. Anyway, next question we have in from Chris at the UNC School of Medicine. Can I use dry ice to crudle a cryo model if I don't have access to liquid nitrogen? Well, if you are at the school of medicine, I would say go steal yourself some liquid nitrogen instead of trying to use some dry ice. Right? wouldn't you say? I mean, here's my problem with dry ice. First of all, I love having dry ice and I love putting dry ice into stainless steel containers because it makes this horrible death

[20:46] squeal that drives Nastasia completely bonkers. Remember that that death squeal? So you stick the dry ice into the container? Like, like, like, sticking a, like, sticking a 1000 pigs. It's like that squeal of that horrible but with metallic. It's crazy. It's awful. Love it. Because I could barely hear it. You know what I mean? Like for me, it's like, you know, I mean, it's not like I would sign up to have someone play that at a

[21:12] concert. You know what I mean? But, you know, like the high register stuff doesn't make me cringe anymore. Uh, you know, too damn old and I've abused my ears too much with, uh, with the, with the loud music. But um, anyways, so there's that. There's that awful noise. And then there's the, so, and then there's the fact that it's very difficult to, um, it's very difficult to freeze things with dry ice because dry ice is not a liquid.

[21:37] So you don't get complete surrounding of your leaves, of your

[21:42] leaves with cryogen, right? So here's how you can do it. If you really, in other words, I'm not necessarily, I'm not recommending it, is what I'm saying. But if you were gonna do it, here's how I would do it. If you absolutely had to do it. I would take dry ice. I would get nugget form because it breaks easier as opposed to the blocks, which are really hard. I would shove a nugget into the bottom of your of your tin, and I would smash the hell out of it to a powder with a, um, with a muddler. Then you're going to add spirit to that. Uh, and it has to be pretty high proof spirit, so it doesn't, um, in fact, you'd have to get like 95%. Like you need something that's not going to solidify with the dry ice. So you need like, you know, almost technically pure liquor there. Then, once that's at super cold freezing temp, then you could use the liquid alcohol as the cryogen. Then you could stick the herbs in. And then assuming you didn't have too much liquid in there. They'd probably be brittle enough to shatter, right? Uh, at which point you could go, you could go ahead. Another way you might be able to try it is to pellet ice straight. Now you could probably use 40%, you know, like regular like liquor, just turn it into a slushy. You could use a blender for this, right? Turn it into a slushy with the dry ice, right? So now it's really, really, really, really, really cold. Then you could immerse the herbs, and it wait a 2nd for them to freeze, and then blender muddle, and it'll probably be close, probably be better than room temp blender modeling, maybe not quite as good as

[23:19] actual nitro muddling. Then you're going to have to add your other ingredients and warm it back up to room temp to shake.

[23:27] Otherwise, you're going to get your dilutions all messed up. But these are all things you can try. But remember, blender, like room temperature blender modeling is not that bad. It's just not as good, but do it side by side and tell me what you think. Anyway, uh, two, any reason I could not or should not attempt to fat wash a bourbon with brown

[23:43] butter? absolutely not. I've had delicious brown butter fat washed things. It takes a lot, though. It's lot, right? It takes a lot. And I think you're going to want contact with those milk solids, right? The kind of brown nutty milk solids. So, you know, I would brown it, and then I would put the entire thing, including the

[24:03] solids together with it, and then, uh, and then we're like, didn't Piper used to make that all the time? Or just regular butter? I don't know. You can do it. I've done it. It works. Three. Can you talk more about milk washing, tea, vodka, and if it's possible to do in the home setting? Oh, sure. So milk washing is a technique I have in liquid intelligence, the art inside, the perfect cocktail. Although, you know, I hate that subtitle. I know they like it, but I don't like the subtitle. Should have had it. But you know how I am? There's what I care about, there's what I don't care about, or there's what I care about right now, and then there's what I end up caring about later. But, like, we all know that I don't believe anything is perfect. Right? And so, like, even though, like, you know, uh, that's like Cooks Illustrated, right? I mean, like, one of the gripes I have with Cooks Illustrated, although, like, back when it came out in 93, like, you know, I had all the original charter stuff, because I used was reading it back in, you know, back then, amazing kind of game changing magazine,

[24:58] obviously, you know, but, like, the one gripe I always have with them is they were always like, the best, this, the blah, this. And what they really mean is a really well researched X, Y, or Z that tackles certain problems that we, which I really appreciate. I love that, but I just don't like calling it the best. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Uh, sure. I haven't talked about the milk washing yet, right? So I have to I have to talk to that after I talk about the caller, right? Yes. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, David, it's Andy from Chicago. How you doing? Doing all right. How you doing? I'm doing great Thanks. Kind of sticking to the cocktail scheme. We're hosting a little holiday party this weekend and I wanted to get some ideas from you maybe on a little cocktail holiday punch kind of thing.

[25:39] I've got your book, haven't read it yet. I'm keeping it sorted away. I have in a closet, so my girlfriend doesn't see it, but uh, given it to her for Christmas. Oh, nice. I thought you meant because you didn't, you're like, I just don't want to make any of the recipes. That's what I think. Yeah, exactly. So I just haven't seen anything yet. But, um, I had one when I was in this great cocktail bar in Austin. had kind of like a flamed rosemary. I think it also has some gin and cherry, which would be good, but just kind of wanted to pick your brain about a good holiday party cocktail.

[26:07] Okay, so but you're looking to do. You're looking to do like large format. I think so, just for the sake of ease of service, um, I would be willing to

[26:16] do something, you know,

[26:20] but I don't want to spend all my time behind the bar. I don't want to be able to buy and hang out myself a little bit. What do you what do you have for equipment? Uh, no, no liquid nitrogen, nothing like that. Pretty standard bar present, but a good a good variety. Do you have a circulator? I do, yes. All right. So this doesn't, okay, so 1st of all, like, I don't really, in the book, so you're not missing anything for this application. In the book, I don't have any really kind of large format drinks there.

[26:49] Like, typically, like when I do large format, I'm doing more like figuring out how to do, like, pitcher at a time, stir drinks, which is like super easy, right? You just put your, you put the, the undiluted, um, mix in, in, uh, in soda bottles

[27:07] in like, you know, one liter soda bottles and you squeeze all the air. lets say we're going to do Manhattans, right? You squeeze out all of the air. Uh, and then, uh, you know, close them off and then you throw them in your in your freezer, you know, like the day before, 2 days before, whatever, and then they just chill down and you just have to figure out the ratios beforehand. I'm pretty sure you can get it from the look inside on Amazon. Uh, and then uh, because the recipe is there. And then, uh, you just have a, like a big picture of ice water, and then you pull out your, you pull out your mixing picture at the last minute, and you're like, blam. And now you have like, you know, a liter and a half of Manhattan that someone could pour out instantly, right? So that's, you know, one way to do it where you're, you know, basically, you know, you're not spending any time mixing drinks, but you're busting stuff

[27:53] out that's at a high caliber like a Manhattan, but I don't think that's what you're looking to do. I think you're looking to get a bold. anyone can serve themselves stuff. So I don't really have any large format recipes that I make mainly because I had a bunch of friends who

[28:05] are doing it and so I didn't like, I don't know, I just didn't do it. I should have done it. So what I would do is read David Wonderridge's book on Punch to figure out kind of what flavor profiles you want to make. And then I would worry about the problem of chilling, which I could help you out with. So, one of the things that, um, you know, Nastasia and back when Piper used to work with us is they used to do this thing called

[28:26] uh, the wine zombie and they also had like other different kinds of zombies and they had a Santa Claus

[28:32] uh, that puked up uh, holiday uh, holiday beverage. So there's a, if you have a circulator, right? So what they would do is they would take a circulator and they would shove a pipe onto the outlet of the circulator and have it either coming out of a zombie's mouth, in which case it would be puking some sort of red cocktail or, you know, blood stuff, or they would stick it into,

[28:54] uh, you know, have it coming out of Santa's mouth and then it would be like Santa puking up all the eggnog because he ate too many cookies,

[29:00] right? I mean, this is the theory of operation. So you don't need to go through all of that of having like a Santa head. My accurate styles. Yeah. Puking Santa. And you actually recorded your friend, uh, Phil, uh, doing like kind of deep, like Grinch like Santa vomiting noises. I'm not recommending you do this for your holiday party, by the way. Anyways, but this is a technique we use all the time to keep things cold without diluting. So what you do is, is you take your circulator, you drop it into the bucket with a couple

[29:27] chunks of dry ice, and then you set the circulator, at whatever temperature you want the cocktail to be, and it will just keep it at that temperature. It won't get too cold and it won't get too hot and you can just keep your punch at the accurate level that you want it to have.

[29:41] Now, if you really want to go through it, you could have a bowl with a drain and you

[29:45] can have it coming like a fountain so someone could put a cup under it and then they wouldn't necessarily see the dry ice or any of that, it wouldn't look all high tech or anything like this, right? So that's that's a technique you can do. Um, you know, or another good thing is if you want to do a hot beverage. Like if you want to do like a mulled wine, right? It's cold in Chicago, right? So circulator is great for a mulled wine. So, you know, you just do like a like a glug, right? So there you can take like, and it's great for parties. You take uh, uh, you take your red wine. I think we usually use like something that's pretty dry like a cab, uh, and you, you know, and port, right? So you're mixing port and something like a cab. And you throw all your spices in. If you wanted to taste Swedish, make sure that make sure that along with the allspice and cinnamon and clove, make sure and orange peels and all

[30:30] that. Make sure you throw in a hefty dose of cardamom, right? Otherwise, you know, the hell's wrong with you. You know what I'm saying? So you cook that, you cook that stuff down. Uh, and then, you know, you boil it, and then you refortify it afterwards with, you know, it sit overnight. And then you refortify it with

[30:45] Akavit or with, you know, vodka, if you're so inclined. And then you correct for salt and any kind of sugar balances that you want. And then that is great, you know, with a circulator just keeping it hot. Uh, and just, you know, keep keeps it going. And that's a that's another good one. Are any of these good suggestions? I can't tell. Yep, yep, sure. Any, uh, the, the sort of medium format was good. I thought earlier than I hadn't thought about. Yeah, yeah, medium format's great because then, you know, they'll stay actually pretty good, the

[31:16] Manhattans will stay pretty good, especially it depends on how nice you want the service to be. You can you can make large format Manhattan's out of your freezer like that and then pour them into Stanley

[31:26] Thermuses and they'll stay pretty close to service temperature. If you've pre-chilled

[31:31] the Stanley, that is. You know what I mean? Like, they'll stay pretty close to service temperature for a long time. So if you have a couple of Stanley pitchers there, you can have like thermoses of Manhattan that stay at pretty much the correct Manhattan temperature for a good while.

[31:44] Yep, yep. I didn't even mention that in the book, I should have, yeah. Another good one. Give you one last good one. Here's another good one. If you're going to do something like bottle drinks, right? So you can bottle a drink that's not necessarily a punch, right? And then, um, like, you know, cap it like you would a, and this is also means you don't have to have as much glassware if you're willing to let people drink it out of the bottle.

[32:07] Depends on you, right? And then you have like individual cat bottles and you do salt and ice, right? Don't do too much or you'll freeze them, right? So you have to, like, you know, kind of measure it out or do a test beforehand, and then just throw all the bottles into the salted

[32:21] ice like they were beer, and then people pull the cocktails, and then they're great. You know what I mean? That's cool Yeah. I feel a little too much for me what I'm looking forward to do by this Saturday, but I like that idea a lot. Cool. Cool. Well, you know, tweet on out. Let us know what happened. Let us know how worked out. Thanks, Buck. Appreciate it. I wish we were having a wish we were having a holiday party. We could. You are the boss. Yeah, nah, I kind of the boss. not really Heritage radio is having a holiday party. Oh, just rub it in. We're having our holiday party with Peter next Monday. Yeah, we were supposed to have a holiday party, right? Which is kind of partially Booker and Dax, partially museum of food and drink. And like 13rd of the party was like, I have a

[33:03] meeting, crap on you. That's our life. That's our life. Can I promote the heritage one? It's tomorrow. actually. At a place called Tandem Bar in Bushwick, open to the public too. So if anybody wants to come meet the hosts. Tandem? Yeah, no it's free. Um, yeah, tandem. tandem bar. Like one in front of the other. Are there, in fact, 2 bars, one in front of the other? Okay. And did you notice how Stas immediately went to negative and it was assuming that you were charging people... No, I thought it was for the

[33:31] funniest part of the fundraiser. No, this is the... Oh, man, that doesn't make a joke. fundraiser. Oh, what's up? We got a new punster. Got a new punster. That's good. Oh, by the yeah, okay. So it's in Bushwick, tandem bar. We'll be there from 6 p.m. until the very bitter end of the night. Yeah, we've got DJs and all kinds of stuff. So at what point does it shift like to 100% hipsters? That'd be like 10 PM. Okay, cool. So if you want the pre- Scheduled. Yeah, if you want to, if you want to do the, if you want to, like, you know, miss the hipster rush, come early, right? right. That's what you're saying. All right, heap stuff. Are you going to get your, uh, everyone who's listened to the past couple episodes knows that uh, there's a new per- There's always someone at Roberta's that, look, when we're doing this show, Basically we're in a shipping container that has been covered with wood to look like you're in a wood cabin on the inside of

[34:23] it. Jack accurate or not. Accurate. Okay. Outside, corrugated metal shipping container. inside, you know, it looks like we could be at that USDA inspected

[34:32] abattoir because it's like, you know, totally wood cabin on the inside. But there's a giant window that faces directly onto, I'm looking at Roberta's eaters now. Like right now there's, you know, there's this date going on. The guy's chewing his thumbnail and the lady's got her chin on, you know, on her, you know,

[34:50] hand. So we're trying to figure out. I think it's going well, no? He's trying to look like he's paying attention to what she's saying. They know each other. Yeah. Anyways, this is what we like, so when we're doing the radio show, like, this is what's happening. So we obviously make comments about the people that we see, especially like, you know, return people, which are usually the Roberta staff, right? Hitler's little elf or whatever he's called. Well, that's kind of a rough. That's we call him Santa's hipster. Yeah, wow. Santa's little hipster. Yeah. Hitler's elf. crazy. What's wrong with you? Brain damage. This is why you probably guys get some knowledge from what we're dealing with here. Nastasia is a deeply damaged person. You just don't get to hear what Dave says off air. What? Uh-huh. Now, I said he might look like he's like, got some sort of like, whatever, whatever. He, whatever. I'm not even... He's got a multicolored beard. He does have a multicolored beard, but he looks he looks like he's out of the Rudolph, like the red-nosed reindeer set. He kind of looks like Hermi, but a little more Teutonic, which is where Stas is getting that from a lot more

[35:54] Teutonic. And like because his beard is very, very neat, but it's dyed. Santa's little hipster. Anyway, do you know him, Jack? No. Okay. I mean, you know, I say hi every day, but I feel bad. We're talking about him like he's not even a human being. Here he is working. whatever. Uh, can you talk more about milk washing, tea vodka, if it's possible to do it in the home setting? Cheers, Chris. Okay. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So if you go to the, it's totally easy to do at home. So let's let's go super home, right? Take your tea, put it into the vodka, let it deep for a long time till it's nice and dark, then add it to the milk, just like it has in the recipe.

[36:29] And the milk is going to, um, bind with some of the polyphenols

[36:33] and the tea and remove some of the astringency, right? Let it sit there for a minute. Then I add citric acid, right? 15% citric acid solution. But you can add. So I add about, uh, I think it's about 15, um, 15 milliliters of that to a liter, uh,

[36:51] of uh, vodka or to 750, you know, whatever I'm doing about 15 mils. So you could get away then with instead of 15 mils of that, you could get away with an ounce, right, right out of a jigger of lemon juice. It won't be quite as much acid, but it'll be pretty close. Make sure you strain it beforehand. Really strain it. And then, so you stir, remember always to stir the vodka into the

[37:13] milk. Otherwise, it'll curdle if you do it the way around. And then remember to wait a little bit, and then add the, um, add the lemon juice, stir

[37:22] it. It should break. You'll see it curdle up, and then just cover it. Uh, and let it sit for like an hour, and, oh, remember, in the book, I show you to like take the spoon and slowly move the, this is a key step. I think people don't do, and it's not as important if you have a centrifuge, but if you don't, this is super key. Take a spoon after you've added after it started curdled and just kind of move, don't stir it like a

[37:49] lunatic, just move the curds around. And what's happening is, is it you're sweeping the curds through the liquid, and the curds are agglomerating together and getting bigger and bigger, and you're kind of mopping up the case scene that's kind of left and hasn't agglomerated into big particles yet. So just kind of move it, wait a couple of minutes, move it around again,

[38:07] saying, stir, move everything together slowly, and then do that for, you know, every couple of minutes for a little while, and then let's

[38:13] sit, and you'll notice that you're going to start getting a lot of very clear liquid, and you're going to be getting curds. At that point, you can just strain it through a paper towel. I wouldn't strain it through, uh, I wouldn't strain it through a coffee filter at the 1st

[38:27] go because it's just going to take for freaking ever. I would strain it through either very fine, uh, you know, uh, linen napkin or a, uh, a paper, a regular paper towel, uh, because they're a lot coarser. And then if you want to get it clear, you can go through a coffee filter, but you're not even going to lose that much. It works fine. It's a little more complicated than using a centrifuge, but not really. I actually did it the last demo I did live just to show people that it wasn't that hard. anyway. Okay, there you go. Um, Okay. Hey, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and the rest. How do you like that one? The rest. The rest. The rest. This is from Brandon Burton, Chicago. This year, I did an injection brine on our Thanksgiving turkey, and it turned out great. I know that some folks out there, E.G.J. Kenji Alt Lopez, Lopez Alt, our anti-Brine, because it just adds water. But I was intrigued by Dave's technique of injecting turkey stock rather than just salty water. My question is whether or not Dave uses a high gelatin, uh, pressure cooked stock or a lighter, more watery version. I keep lots of gelatinous stock on hand, but I'm curious if injecting a bird with the equivalent of a salty turkey Jell-O. salty turkey jello. Or if you want to sell it, if you want to sell salty turkey Jell-O, call it aspic, although no American, but if you want to sell it in France, you're

[39:45] gonna, you sell it as aspic, right? Because but in American, no one wants something that has the word ass and pick together that they're going to eat. You know what I mean? ass pick. It sounds nasty, then you also have to clarify it. Hmm, aspect. And also in France, I don't know that they'd be eating a turkey aspect. They're like, Dandon, I speak to Dandon. I don't think they would buy that. You know what I'm saying? Isn't Dan Don Turkey in French? I don't know, Turk French. No, no, someone will tell me if I'm wrong, which I'm sure I am. Anyway, um, I keep lots of gelatin stock on hand, but I'm curious if injecting the burger with the colonos, salty turkey

[40:16] jello, would negatively impact the texture or brine absorption of the meat. Best, Brandenburg, Chicago. Well, I don't know. I did, I used a gelatinous, hardcore, uh, pressure cooked stock with like a boat ton of wings. The entire carcass of the of the bird, um, and I started with, did I start with chicken stock? I might have and I think I started with water. I start with water. But yeah, it was gelatinous. In other words, it's self-set. But I injected it. Um, I injected it at room temp, right? So I did it, or even a little warm. I did it right. Did I do it right before? I did it very soon before I did to cook, right? So I salted the meat, uh, beforehand, and then I didn't super salty, the,

[41:05] um, the stock. I just salted it a little more than regular stock, which is completely unsalted, right? And so I injected it and then cooked it very, very soon thereafter. So I don't know if you did it like days before what would happen, but no one noticed any sort of Jelloness to

[41:24] the to the meat, you know, and it tasted delicious. Everyone's, I mean, people, they liked that injected flavor better than they liked it when I did it all low temp, you know, with

[41:37] the, uh, what do we call that one? What do we call the exoskeleton bird? Bionic turkey. Yeah, bio turkey. So anyway. So I don't know. I don't know technically, but I know my results were good. I did use a gelatinous stock. Oh, we've never taken a break, have we? No, we're reaching the end. You want to take a quick break or you want to blast through? We'll blast through. Blast through. Okay. Jeremy writes in, hi, my parents have sent us a giant rib roost for Christmas dinner, but I'm stressed about cooking such a big and expensive piece of

[42:06] meat. I'm curious if it makes sense to cook it low temp. Uh, the center would be done perfectly, but how would the crust be with only a short blast in the

[42:14] oven? I have a circulator, a seresol, and a normal residential oven. In short, how would you cook it? Thanks very much, Jeremy. All right, well, here's what I would do. Um, I would, I've told this story a bunch, but one time I did a low temp on a, on a rib roast, and

[42:33] then, um, just did a quick finish off on the outside, and it was terrible because it's a huge, the huge interior of the meat is all the same doneness, and it turns out that you want, you like rib roast,

[42:46] right sauce? And what's your favorite part? I don't know. You don't know, Jack, do you like rib roast? Sure. What's your favorite part? The favorite part would be, though. I know mine. You know, the outside part of it. So like, you know, the rib, there's the eye, and then there's that layer of like fatty, like layered,

[43:01] like deckly stuff that goes around it. You know what I'm talking about? Can you picture a rib in your mind? There's the bone. Then there's the eye that's attached directly to the bone and then there's that thing that wraps around it. Right? That part, when it's overcooked and all crunchy on the outside and the fat's all crunchy. That's my favorite part of it. My favorite part. It properly cooked? No, it's overcooked. Is it my favorite part? Yeah. So, you know, you don't want at a rib roast. You kind of need that, but what you don't want is to lose the ends of the rib because they're overcooked, and you don't want the main eye to be overcooked. In fact, you don't want that eye to be overcooked at all. So here is what I would do. This is the technique I would use. I would um, and in fact, this is what I do do. I uh, usually cut the um, cut the roast off of the bone, right? Then I low temp the entire rib roast, and then I cook the bones down. Then I, uh, kind of, you don't have to remove the bone. I do just because it's, the last time I did it, I couldn't fit it all in. Then normally what I'll do is I'll take the low temp cooked rib

[44:09] roast, and I'll tie it back to the bone, right, after it's cooled down. Now you have the center of the rib totally nicely done. And now I'm not talking a short blast in the oven. Just, you can turn the oven higher than you normally would, and then you throw the rib roast in there, tied back to the bone, and then you

[44:27] get, so it's as protection. Then you get the roasted flavor of the of the rib bones, which all, you know, all bone gnars love, right? Are you a bone gnars does? No, jack bone gnar. Yes. Well, I mean, you know, if it's good stuff. Yeah. And also, if it's dry aged, you know, you don't want to necessarily, like, low temp it with the bone on because it's going to really infuse too much kind of dry-age flavor. Okay. So then you're looking at just doing, instead of cooking it for hours and hours, you're looking at like a 45

[44:56] or, you know, minute or hour at a high temperature and yeah, you're overcooking the outside of the meat, but that's kind of what you want. And that's what I would do. And then I would pull it out and if you have any places that don't have a good looking crust on it when it's all said and done. Just hit it with a sears all, just to like crust it the outside and you're done. What do you think, stuff? That's how I would do it. In fact how I have done it. Um, okay. Uh, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. Next question. Hammer and the nails. Not sure if this is still the right email to use, but I was listening to the recent episode on making stock in the venting slash

[45:28] non venting pressure cookers versus a stock pot, where we had said that, uh, you know, I don't know why the venting pressure cookers. So, you know, the theory is, you know, in my experience, if you use a pressure cooker like

[45:40] Coon Recon that doesn't vent, that it makes a superior stock to traditional stock in an open kettle.

[45:46] Uh, and that if you use a venting pressure cooker, i.e. one that like sprays out uh, steam as it goes, that in fact it makes a stock that tastes inferior to even an open kettle and vastly inferior to the coon recon style.

[45:59] Anyway. Um, I think the answer lies in the higher temperature and the venting pressure cooker, increasing the volatilization of aromatic chemicals preferably over the rest. In other words, like more than the, the, getting rid of the nice aromatics more than the other ones. Since by their nature, they tend to have a fairly low boiling points leading to the flavor venting off to the room. I'm also guessing if you captured the steam and condensed it out, you'd find a rather larger set of flavor causing aromatics, then you would get from the stock pot due to that effect. Anyway, love the show, hope you make it back out to Seattle sometime. Mike. I don't know. Don't know. I don't know. Someone will have to run the test and tell me. All right. Got 2 questions in from the Twitter that I said I would answer. Here we go. Uh, at said Walking Drunk wrote me and said, do you have a time temperature recommendation for low temperature lamb

[46:44] hearts? I don't, but I'll tell you, you know, I don't cook enough mammal hearts, although I love, you know, I love a chicken heart, Stas. You like chicken hearts? Jack, chicken hearts? Yeah, actually, I tried them and they're really good. like on a skewer. Yeah, they are like, like, okay, so like, like, in terms of parts of a chicken, right? You got, in my, in my estimation, you got the skins and the hearts are right up there, and then you got like the meat afterwards. You know what I mean? First the dark meat, then the light meat. Light meat's like down, down. They got the chicken feet somewhere in there near the near the light meat. Anyway. Um, I love chicken hearts. But anyway, lamb hearts. Um, so here's the issue, right? Heart muscle is is chewy. right? And that's kind of what I like about chicken hearts because the size of them and duck hearts. The size of them is very nice. So when you eat one, you can get a kind of a crusty thing on the outside and it's chewy, and it's that chewiness, that very chewiness that I enjoy. Right? So, Question is, like, what are you trying to do? You're trying to make it unchewy or not? Because it's gonna be chewy if you low temp it. So your only choice then is to low temp it for so long that you're actually getting protein breakdown in in the muscle. So you're going to have to cook it for days, you know, days to get it to, and then it might not taste good anymore because it might not taste chewy.

[48:15] From a temperature standpoint. I think you could cook it at whatever you would normally cook, you know, that stuff at. So like anywhere between 55 and 57, depending on how you want it to be. I would probably probably go somewhere like 55, 56 for that. But you're talking now, you're going to have to, I, what I do is I would take, I would take 3 bags, 4 bags, 5 bags, and I would

[48:38] cook one for 24 hours. I would cook one for 48 hours, one for 72 hours, and then

[48:45] one maybe even for whatever 4 days is in hours. And then, uh, pull them, uh, chill them, and then uh, deep fry them all because, or roast them because you still need a crust on the outside. You know what I'm saying? Jack, you want you want an uncrusted heart? No. No. But for testing, I wouldn't do that. For testing, I would just retherm them and taste the meat to see what the texture tastes like before you make them all taste good by

[49:07] crusting them up. But I would, I would, I would test that uh, and see kind of uh, whether or not you get a good result. And if you do do that, I would definitely tweet in and tell me what happened so that I

[49:19] can figure out whether or not it was, whether or not it was good or it was bad. I was gonna say, too, Duckheart may be one of the most delicious things I've ever had, too. Yeah, you like it, the duck card? Duck card is good. I think they're out of time, though. I got one more quick one. Blast through. All right. At Zang wrote in. Cooking issues. Any tips for keeping biffon crut from getting soggy bottom. Soggy bottoms. Gross word, right? Yep. Yeah. Vending doesn't seem to help venting the pastry. So we're talking about beef wrapped in a crust. Cooking issues. I also won't have a circulator with me to avoid moisture loss from the meat, and the duck cells, the duck cells, is, you know, the mixed kind of mushroom, cooked mushroom slash, you know, shallot or whatever, mixture cooked, chopped up that you put with these things or with, like, you know, with a beef Wellington or with, you know,

[50:07] beefelcuta or something like this. The duck cells are cooked as dry as possible. All right, here are my recommendations for it. I really would if you could do a pre-cook on the meat so that you're not getting as much drip loss. Like that's really the only thing that's going to save you here is preventing the drip loss out of the

[50:25] meat, which is causing the bottom of the crust to be soggy. So obviously if I had a circulator, I would uh, sear the hell out of the outside of the meat, I would then circulate it till it was done, cool it down, wrap it in puff pastry, and then stick that puff pastry in a really, really hot oven just

[50:42] to, not really, really hot, but like, like hot enough to cook the puff pastry without really cooking the meat that much.

[50:49] And that way you're going to get a nicely cooked pus pastry because even no matter what, even if you don't get a lot of moisture loss, you're going to get a little bit of gumminess around it.

[50:55] Now, the duck cells is there to provide a barrier so that you don't have that much problem, right? And it's a thermal barrier. So like a lot of dried duck cells around is going to is going to help you. However, they're not that absorbent. So you're not, you're still, as the juices drip out of a raw piece of meat down into the into the bed of the puff

[51:14] pastry. It's going to get soggy and no amount of vending's going to help that. I'm presuming you're saying soggy, you said soggy on the bottom. Yeah, soggy bottoms. Now this is not traditional and may not even taste good, but if you were to line the bottom underneath it with dry rusks,

[51:31] do you like the word rusk? Sure. Rusks. Like some sort of like dried biscuit or bread. It could maybe act like a sponge and a thermal barrier, right? So you could get good cook off of your pastry, so it's not soggy, so it starts out life nicely. And then also that could absorb some of the, like, bloody juices as they come in. Maybe it's texturally good, maybe it's texturally bad, but that's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head because that Twitter just came in. Let us know whether you like these ideas or what's going on. Do the 12 days of steering. Join Heritage Radio Network. If I don't talk to you, happy the holidays. cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes

[52:18] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.