[0:00] Hi, this is Marion Nessel. I'm the poet Goddard professor of Nutrition Food Studies and Public Health at New York University, and a longtime fan of Heritage Radio. Like Marion, you too can support Heritage Radio Network, a member based nonprofit radio station operating out of

[0:17] Bushwick, Brooklyn. I've been on it countless times. I love being interviewed. The interviewers are always really well prepared. and fun to talk to about the issues that mattered to me the most, about how we can change our food system to one that's healthier for people

[0:35] and the environment. It's just invaluable to have an independent radio station that's dealing with these issues. I think it's the wonderful, wonderful asset. Support Heritage radio network by becoming a member today. Go to heritageradionetwork.org and click on the beating heart to donate. Today's program is brought to you by MoFad, the Museum of Food and Drink. For more information, visit mofad.org. I'm Linda Pelacio, host of a Taste of the Past. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.

[1:24] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. It just coming to you live, every Tuesday from roughly 12, roughly 1245 or one-ish on the Heritage Rider Network from Robina's

[1:37] Pizzeria in where's Roberto's Pizzeria Nastasia? Bush, where? Brooklyn. Where? Brooklyn. Morning, Nastasia. Good morning. How you doing? It's not morning. Also, we've been speaking since like 745. Yeah, but do people who are listening to this know that? No, they're listening to it at like midnight somewhere in somewhere else. They don't know what you've been doing. They don't know your life. This is a constant radio mistake you make. I feel like they like knowing about our life. Yes, but with context. Like, like, like, imagine this. You'd want to talk about the center. imagine this. Imagine this. Yeah, we could bring it up that way simply. Oh my god, can you believe what happened earlier? Oh, and that's all we say. No, because when I say that, then you're prompted to say, well, we've been up since that early because we've been talking about the centrifuge, which you should all know and

[2:22] like. How do you pronounce the way your man Trump said, I don't know. China on the phone with China. Yeah, in fact, that is true. We did a... After work, their time before our work. See, then when you're, when you're, when you're building something that's 12 hours time zone away, you have to kind of arrange your

[2:40] calls either, like early in the morning or like late at night, there's no, I guess that's not

[2:46] true. They could arrange it, so it's early in the morning or late at night for them. Yeah. Instead, we organize this so it's either early in the morning or late for us. You get better late at night. Anyway, this is, again, people don't care, but we are working on the centrifuge. I had to tweet in earlier asking for updates, et cetera, et cetera. The updates are that, uh, We... Look, we've had a working prototype for some months now, but

[3:12] we're not going to officially release anything until or give a date until we are sure that we have the future production kinks pretty ironed out, right,

[3:24] Nastasia? But we're still planning on doing a pre-order. It's still going to be under a $1000. You will get a pre-order discount that's still our plan. And we hope to have it on pre-order somewhere between 3 and 5 months before the actual delivery date.

[3:44] And we might have a tiered early bird system where the early, early birds get it for less than the later early birds, et cetera, et cetera. right Is that our current plan? Okay. Or something like this. It's like similar to that. We not committing anything. Belly bird, definitely. Yeah, whether there's levels of early bird, we don't know, but the issue is, is we're going to go on pre-sales and you're going to get a discount because you're buying it before it comes

[4:04] out, and what that's going to do is there's a substantial amount of tooling that we need to make to get it

[4:10] made, and we don't have the cash to front it. So the pre-orders are basically going to go towards the tooling to get it produced. As for the specs, the specs are going to be that it is, it's going to hold 500 milliliters at a time of liquid or oil or whatever, but it's going to have the ability with a built-in pump to pump liquid through the

[4:36] rotor, such that you can do more than 500 milliliters. at a time. So the most I've ever done. And it depends on the solid content, et cetera, et cetera. But the most I've ever done in one shot is 5 gallons. But obviously that has, you know, not that many solids in it. I did 5 gallons of cider. I filtered 5 gallons of cider with it. Anyway, we're pretty excited about it. The whole thing is going to be smaller, uh, well, it's about a little bit bigger than a Cuisinart, wouldn't you say, Nastasia? Food processor, yeah. Yeah, a little bit bigger than a cuisin art food processor. much smaller than like a KitchenAid mixer, right? Easily fits under counter, uh, easy to lift around, move around, et cetera, et cetera. You buy them like potato chips. You're not even going to want one. You're going to want two. You gotta want three. Am I right, Nastasia? Oh, our goal is to put in anybody. They ask us, my partners, they ask us, how do you know how many people are gonna buy it? I said, well, this is how many modernist cuisines sold. We had a number a while ago, but I don't know what it is now. Uh, and We figure if someone's willing to shell out $500 for a book, a lot of these people don't already have the centrifuge, they're going to be willing to shell out less

[5:44] than, less than. We don't know what the final number is going to be, but less than a 1000 bucks, hopefully as low as we can go, right?

[5:50] So we're going to price it as low as we can. But less than a 1000 bucks to be able to do some of those tricks. And we can do most of the tricks that you can do from modernist cuisine. We've tested peea butter, for instance, all these kinds of things. The recipes are different because I'll go more into depth later, but I have to rewrite some of my recipes to get them to work in a smaller

[6:11] centerfuge, but that's part of the work that I've been doing is figuring it out. And if anyone really cares, they can ask me to do an ABC is a centrifugation on error later in terms of the actual science and math behind it. I don't think that much people care. blog post. No, but I never really talked about... I mean, there's a, there's a, There's a number of factors in a centrifuge. We run into the same problems that people run into with things like induction burners, right? They compare watts of an induction burner with BTUs in a gas stove, and nobody really knows how to compare them. So comparing, for instance, something that acts more like a fixed angle centrifuge versus a swinging bucket. The 2 main kinds of centrifuge that people deal are called fixed angle. Obviously, what that means is that the liquids are held at a fixed angle in the rotor, as it spins, and the other

[7:03] kind's called swinging bucket, where the products are in buckets that, as you might guess, swing out, when you open it, when you turn it

[7:11] on, rather, and that's how they work. They have the 2 different kinds of rotors have different characteristics. Primarily based on the fact that having an angle helps with certain kinds of pelleting, i.e. getting solids to deposit and stay solid at the bottom of a rotor, and also fixed angle rotors

[7:29] definitely usually the cloudy bits have a shorter distance to travel before they

[7:35] hit the bottom of the tube. So fixed angle rotors act differently from swinging bucket rotors, but usually swinging bucket rotors have a much larger capacity than a fixed angle rotor, albeit at a slower

[7:45] RPM. So, this kind of, this centerfuge kind of, uh, tries to bridge the gap between those

[7:51] two, so it works. Uh, it works at a considerably lower G-force, then the uh, then the equivalent swingy bucket wood. Also, uh, you know, the centerfuge, like how well something, a centerfuge separates solids out is based on a variety of factors that are, um, inherent in the product itself.

[8:11] So the viscosity, which we work on with, uh, uh, like enzymes, like Pecnex, ultra SPL, but also out in the speed of the rotor, which is something I can't change too much.

[8:21] But the other and the diameter, obviously, they work in tandem because that's where the force comes from. But the big one, the important one that you get to manipulate is particle size. So the, um, the speed at which you set the sediment stuff out goes linearly as the force is increased.

[8:39] It goes linearly as the viscosity decreases, but it goes by the square of the particle size.

[8:50] So you what you really wanted, and also the density difference between the solids and the and the liquids. But so a lot of my recipes to get the smaller centrifuchs to work like a big guy, it has to do with increasing the particle size.

[9:01] So I already went through and went through it. If anyone didn't understand that, which I'm sure is 100% of people because I wasn't very clear, then you can ask me to explain it later at a later date. Be like, what the hell did that guy say about particle size? Like, the truth of the matter is, is that a lot of the recipes that I use in, uh, liquid intelligence for things like lime

[9:20] juice, to centrifuge lime juice out. lime juice is more difficult to centrifuge than other things because the enzymes don't fully break everything down because of the extreme acidity in lime juice.

[9:30] And the way that I make that work in a centrifuge. Regular, you know, the benchtop 3 liter centrifuge that I use at the bar, is wine finding agents. And what those wine finding agents do is they make the particles agglomerate together, they become bigger, as those particles become bigger, it becomes, as I said, you know, by the square, easier to filter them out or smash them to the bottom of the centrifuge

[9:56] buckets. And so, uh, I do that trick with this centrifuge and I can centrifuge basically anything so far. You know, a few things aren't as good as the big guy, but pretty much the results have been good, right? St us? It's just a matter of making sure they're consistent so that when it shows up at your house or at your bar, you are safe and happy. right? Those are the 2 main things we want you to be in that order. Safe, happy. Yeah? Anyways. So, we'll give you updates as we know them. But, like, if it doesn't go on, we look, we're still hoping to deliver it. This calendar, if not early next calendar, but I don't want to promise anything, but if we don't pre-order, by the end of this year, I think we're in some serious trouble anyway. So expect that to happen. Right? Is your sister, by the way, still on dump meals or no? Did she do any? I haven't asked her. But she said she was going to keep on. We got some every other week, she'll call it. Every other week we call in, so we didn't frighten her away. Did you explain to her that I realized that she didn't write the dump meals and therefore she shouldn't feel bad about me insulting the dump meals? We had a caller. We had a question about the dump meals. Maybe I'll hit that one first, even though we're way behind. Another thing. Remind me after we come out of break mozzarella. Alright. You cook anything interesting, by the way, over the week? No. No? What did you do this? Oh, you went to a wedding. How was the food at the wedding? Good. Come on, really? Good for a wedding or good? Just because they had like a whole pig in a raw bar. They went all out. Oh, how's the whole pig? Good, good. I'm trying to look at AC. What I'm doing for you people is I'm reading Nastasia's face and I actually saw that she enjoyed it. How was the skin? Was it chewy or crunchy? Crunchy. Really? I love a crunchy skin. I love a crunchy skin of how big was a pig? Not like that big. Oh, how many people at the wedding? Three? Who is she doing? That was just the appetizer hour. Oh, no, she's showing a pig. It's like maybe 2 feet long. And anyone there who's cooked a pig nose that until the pigs get like longer than that, it's all like bones anyway. There's these skinny little mothers that, you know, pigs, baby, pigs, and that there's not a lot of meat on them, right? Right. Good news is, is that they're fairly, uh, I don't think the little guys dry out as easily, right? So it wasn't as dry? No. A lot of fat coming out of the skin. Did you eat the ear? No. Who at the wedding? There's always one. Who at the wedding? Nobody. come on. Dave, it was like one part of like 16 pieces that are happy at the cocktail. There was no one like me there who walked up, ripped off the ear, started eating. Yeah, you know what? I've said this before, Nastasia. You better get yourself some new friends. You need new friends. Uh, Anyway, let me find this, uh, let me find this thing we had. Judy from Malden writes in. This is regarding dunk meals. Couldn't help but pause to jot down a note while listening to you, shout down, dunk meals. It is true. I got mighty angry over the over the dumb meals. I did. You don't have to trust my opinion, though, since I don't mind wraps. Ooh. She goes on to say, yes, it's essentially edible cardboard, but I can't help myself if I don't want all the bulk of the bread. Here's key. is why I know I can trust her. I may be a garbage individual. But I'll call or wrap a sandwich. Now, see, I have infinite respect for someone who comes out. Can I say it to myself all the time? I may be a garbage individual. But... Props. Props. All right? Major respect. I got a lot of love from Malden right now. Uh, I know you guys feel that maybe America's Test Kitchen, which is, you know, you know, America's Test

[13:38] Kitchen, affiliate, yeah. Uh, can be a little tone deaf at times, and it's true, but I've spent 7 years reading cookbooks, cover to cover, and cooking mostly dishes that

[13:47] makes sense when only one person is eating 98% of the

[13:51] time, uh, and you have no access to outdoor cooking. So those are the things. Cooking for yourself a lot of the time and no access to the outdoors, okay? Okay. So I've cooked my way through America's Test Kitchen, slow cooker, cookbook, which I get you is their answer to dump meals. And certainly not all the dishes are winners, but some dishes, like shredded barbecue chicken, that is literally chicken and a

[14:15] slightly, slightly dogged, uh, uh, but some dishes, like a shredded barbecue chicken, is literally chicken and slightly doctored with, uh, barbecue sauce, talk about a dump meal. But in other words, like she's saying, a lot of them aren't winners. A lot of them that she's saying, I guess, blow. But, uh, I kind of really want to send you guys a copy because she says something interesting. Uh, the mailing address, which we'll send, it starts, you can send it to me. Okay. I'm sure Dave will do a look inside on Amazon. I didn't get a chance this morning because, as I said, normally the time when I would be looking inside that for you to make comments. Nastasi and I were talking to the factory in China. Anyway, I'm sure Dave will do a look inside, but here's another important paragraph.

[14:55] The 1st lesson was that most slow cooker recipes are mediocre at best. Best because most of the time, one cannot simply dump a bunch of ingredients into a slow cooker and walk away.

[15:03] true. Obviously, that's why I was yelling at your sister about not browning the meat beforehand because that's garbage. One needs to develop flavor using a host of mostly new and interesting techniques that are contained in the book.

[15:13] So apparently America's Test Kitchen has a bunch of new techniques that allow you to just dump a bunch of crap into the slow cooker and

[15:19] get a good result. Um, microwave, spices 1st and aromatics, tomato paste, et cetera, et cetera. Part cooking, hearty vegetables in a microwave, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, so we'll take a look at it. And, and, you know, and it says, obviously, soy sauce and tomato paste were secret weapons for building flavor as I yelled at your sister for the teriyaki sauce. But we'll try it. We'll try it. Uh, so if you send us that, uh, Judy, we'll take a look at it and see, right? I like a response. And next week, we will have Nastasia's sister, the correspondent coming in with her dunk meal. No, she's going to call in again. That's her name, calling with her dumb meal. And hopefully, Nastasia, you can warn her a little bit beforehand. think she has now. like that I'm gonna have some violent reactions. Towards some of this stuff. I know last week we covered the shy's question on Burmese tofu, right? The chickpea polenta. I thought we got to nothing. I thought we covered it. Okay. I wanted to call, remember I wanted to call Francis Lamb, but I couldn't get in touch with him. But we talked about it, right? I think that was when I was driving. Yeah, you talked about it. All right, talk about it. So anyway, so if shy, if I didn't get to your question on the Burmese tofu, which

[16:32] is essentially not tofu, it's essentially a chickpea polenta, right? And again, I've never tried it, but there's also Italian variants of chickpea polenta called

[16:39] panella. I haven't tried those either either, but I'm sure it works. But it's definitely not a tofu style thing. It's much more like a polenta, but it sounds delicious. I've never had it. Uh, you also had a question on, um, using molds that I'm not sure to make tofu ripen like cheese. And usually the cheeses that are, the molds that are used for fermented tofu aren't classic Western cheese molds, but they have run tests with like

[17:05] penicillin rogue 40, but they've bolstered. The problem is, is that a lot of those flavors in cheeses are fat breakdown

[17:12] products. So in general, they have to dope the tofu with fats 1st and sometimes

[17:18] they do with milk solids as well, which kind of defeats the purpose. But they'll dope the tofu with fat, such that, um, the molds can uh, make similar uh,

[17:27] fat, uh, fat breakdown, um, you know, lipace style flavors that you would get from cheese, but it has been tested, I think, in the 70s. I don't know anyone that does commercial stuff. Uh, shirt leaf, uh, in his uh, in his his wife, who I can never pronounce her name. They have all the soy books. And if you look online, they have an exhaustive search of the literature, bibliography on cheeses, a

[17:51] tofu inoculated with different molds. So I go check on that. And Shai, if I didn't get to your actual question, accurately, just send back again. I know it's taken forever. I feel bad about it. I feel bad about it, right, Nastasia? I mean, we've had a bunch of weeks where we've had a bunch of crap going on. Chris, did I get the Chris's Gravlocks question? I don't think so. Okay. Called in a long time ago. I have made Gravlock, secured Scandinavian salmon a few times before, but have now been asked to make it for my sister's wedding, which hopefully didn't already

[18:20] happen. You know, otherwise we're host. I'm concerned that I'm producing something that is safe to eat and would like to know about the principles which make it safe to

[18:28] eat. The procedure for curing fish is to prepare a mixture of salt, sugar, black

[18:33] pepper, and dill. Sources very quite a bit in the ratio of these ingredients, and also in the ratio of curry mixture to the massive fish being cured. Spread it over longitudinally sliced salmon fillets with the skin on, place the 2

[18:45] fillets together, and wrap in cling film, and cure in the fridge for about 48 hours, flipping every now and again, which by the way, I emailed

[18:52] Nils, and that's pretty much his recipe. I have Nils's recipe, Nils Norn, uh, here. I'll give it to you before I continue. Nils uses one. sugar to one salt. If you use a kosher salt blend it until it's fine, otherwise it doesn't melt properly, nils mixes the salt and sugar mixture with chopped dill and black pepper, even though white pepper is more

[19:11] traditional. Nils hates white pepper because of the moldy taste, hates, hates, hates it, hates. Actually, not a huge fan either. You like white pepper? Because it's moldy tasting, right? And do you care about seeing black pepper on your product? No, to me, it's a sign, there's black pepper there. I love black pepper. I hate white pepper. You know who loves white pepper? Wiley. Wiley Dufrayne. loves white pepper. He's not a huge fan of black pepper. You know what I think he is? Wrong. I think Trump would probably love white pepper. Whoa, I'm gonna tell Wiley you said that. You think Trump is a white pepper fan. That's not what I said. He said, I think. What? Thanks. See, that's very trumpy in yourself. You don't actually, like, I'm not ascribing to any opinion, but I've heard some people say Trump likes white pepper. I get all my information from the Internet. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow. So yours, and am I sensing some, there's a there's a racial overtone to the to the pepper argument all of a sudden. I hadn't even, never even, never occurred to me. Although I guess it fits white being moldy. Anyway, even though white pepper is more traditional. I debone, scale the skin and leave the, uh, leave it on as the skin, and here's a key thing that no says, as the skin is really good to sear after it's

[20:20] cured. when you remove it before you slice it, but it's cured. He likes the seared cured skin. I rub the mixture and put the flesh sides together, don't weigh it down, just make sure to turn it after 24 hours, or less if it is a smaller salmon. So anyway, so that's Nils's direct from Nils's mind. And no's gravel lock's pretty damn good. I mean, if I had to say, give me some Swedish crap, I would go to nils and say nils, can you cook me some Swedish crap? Wouldn't you do that, Assassin? haven't seen those in a while. Hopefully I'll see him soon. Um, Okay. I also understand that there might be some risk of contracting parasites. What's the worst word for parasite in your mind,

[20:59] Anastasia? I mean, you don't mind the word parasite. You just hate all the things associated with it. worm, spoor. Like, what else? Uh, parasites, which can be mitigated by using fish that have been frozen to below a certain temperature for an extended period of time. Probably not attainable in a home freezer. Actually, it is. The issue with a home freezer is that you just need to freeze it for an extended period of time. So, like, if you're a home freezer and you can measure it with a thermometer, but your home freezer probably easily gets down to about -20 Celsius, which is -4 Fahrenheit, and that's fine, but you have to leave the

[21:39] for fish in that for a long time. The problem with that also is that probably your fish has already been frozen and multiple

[21:47] freestyle cycles really kind of beats up the texture of the of the flesh. I think your best bet is to get stuff that you can guarantee is previously frozen. I mean, the issues, there are definitely parasite issues in salmon, and those parasites are not necessarily killed by

[22:08] the salting or by the refrigeration. Uh, they will be uh, killed by freezing. You know, the thing is, is that a lot of times if you talk to people in the store, they're like, what do you mean?

[22:20] It's never been frozen. It's fresh. and like, they don't realize that you're like, come on, will you please just tell me this sucker's been frozen because then I don't have to worry about it.

[22:27] People still in their minds. They think that the never frozen is like a positive thing for fish, whereas a lot of fish,

[22:33] especially farmed, which is a lot of what your salmon is going to get unless you're getting the wild caught. Uh, it's much better for them to freeze it properly at the source and ship it than to go through

[22:45] the whole uh, cold chain uh, unfrozen. You know what I mean? Like a lot of all your sushi that you eat supposedly has been frozen to kill parasites. And so freezing is not what it once was, like very high quality frozen fish is kind of the best that you can get for some of these bigger

[23:04] things unless you're catching it, you know, right away, unless it's off of a day boat or something like that. you're not getting unless you live in Alaska or in Washington, you're not getting salmon anywhere close to its

[23:16] source. You know what I'm saying? So anyway. So I would just buy stuff that's frozen ahead of time so that you don't have to worry about it. I would like to prepare and slice this in advance. How far in advance can I prepare it? and with slicing in advance, increase the risk that somebody might get sick from the fish. Yeah, of course. Anytime that you're taking something that's a whole muscle and cutting it, you are introducing the possibility of adding bacteria. So if you get like any kind of contamination on it, listeria or whatever, you're increasing the surface area on which it can

[23:50] grow. And, you know, the knife, if it's not fully sanitized. I mean, are you going to get someone sick? Like maybe not, but, you know, um, yeah, you definitely increase the increase the risk. Now, if you, I don't know if, if you want to, if cheat it, and you can add something that will kill bacteria,

[24:08] like, uh, nitrites or something like this, but I don't really, I don't know a lot about, um, cured fish safety, but definitely you're increasing the

[24:16] risk. It's still a small risk, right? Anyway, also, do you have any values for the ratio of curing mixture to fish and the

[24:23] competition of the mixture? I gave you nils and stuff on that. But, uh, not sure how to answer on the safety, uh, look, I would slice it. I would slice it, um, pretty soon thereafter, keep it really cold, you know, keep everything really cold, like, you know, sanitize your

[24:39] knife. It's probably not going to be a problem. But yeah, anytime you're doing something like that, you're increasing risk. And maybe someone in the chat room has something to say on that. Um, Okay. Should we take a, you want to take a break? Come back with more cookies? Oh, let's take a break and come back with some more cooking issues?

[25:07] Hi, this is Peter Kim, the executive director of MoFAD, the Museum of Food and Drink. We're a nonprofit, founded by Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues here on the Heritage Radio Network, and we want to take people on a learning adventure through the

[25:19] world of food. We just opened MoFad Lab, our gallery space at 62 Bayard Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, where we are currently showing

[25:26] flavor, making it and faking it. Flavor features some very cool sensory interaction. Flavor tablets deliver tastings of vanilla and umami, and the Willy Wonka inspired smell synth lets you

[25:37] incompose over half a 1000000 different flavors. So come on by and visit Mofad Lab. We're open 5 days a week, and tickets are $5 for kids and $10 for adults. Learn more about the museum of food and drink at mofad.org. Peter Kim, huh? Peter, Kim. Peter Kim. You know that the entire time he was talking about, talking about us, the cooking issues, that he was, like, making snide faces, is

[26:07] just like, you know what I mean? I can see his face. I can see his face of disgust as he mentioned cooking issues. I could feel it. So, Peter. Yeah, I know. So Peter. We got to get his butt back in here so we can. I asked him to come today. And I was too busy, me, me, me, me, me, me, working on the next exhibition that we're going to do, which they're going to do a Kickstarter later

[26:28] on to make money for the next exhibition. Don't worry. Nastasi made her Kickstarter face. You're not involved. Sorry. Nastasia hates Kickstarter, which we can get it. If anyone ever wants Nastasia to, if you want Nastasia to rant, like get her started on running. Unless I hate you, then I'll tell you they're a good idea, which I did once. If someone asks you, should you do one? you're like, yeah. Yeah. So fun. Sometimes, look, sometimes it's necessary. And 1st of all, there are some people who enjoy interacting with people. And for them, maybe it will be good. For you, living nightmare. Some people may be okay. Yeah. You know what I mean? Also, if you were going to do a Kickstarter and you didn't actually have a product you needed to deliver, if it was not actually a product, yeah, if

[27:12] it's a nonprofit. You know, think it's better. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, whatever anyway. Rachel from Hong Kong wrote in. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, and David in the booth, and any other special guests, no other special guests today because Peter apparently doesn't think that we're worthy. We're worthy. Not even not even the chance to talk about MoFat and a free lunch is enough to entice

[27:35] him. Entice him in. A little bit later the game and only found out about your podcast this January. Spent the last 6 months power he threw the entire backlog. Yes, I'm one of those nutjobs. Wow. You know, I feel for anyone that you're friends with. You know what I mean? That's like a lot of screaming and ranting to wade your way through. Yeah. Bit gutted that I didn't quite make it to wish Jackie Molecules bon voyage, but now I'm taking comfort that we still get to hear him on the Heritage radio outro for now. We got to get Jack to record some more outro. Someone just beat down the back wall. You hear that? Somebody beat, almost punched through the back wall, like Kool-Aid style. Did you call out for Kool-Aid? Oh, yeah. Remember that? Oh, whoa, man. David, you are quick on the button today. That has some strong Kool-Aid. Oh, yeah, noise. Have my coffee. Yeah, sweet. What kind of coffee do you like? Black. But like, like, do are you an espresso man or an American cup of coffee, man? Um, well, in summertime, I do cold brew. I like Americanos. I don't know. I don't like milk really. Man, I like milk, but not in my coffee. Yeah, I like milk formed into cheese. Oh, which I was supposed to talk about later. Let's get you a question. Oh, nice segue. Yeah, but I got to finish. I gotta finish Rachel. So I know how you feel about vacuum sealing chicken for low temp cooks, but texture aside, because my theory is that especially the higher the vacuum, If it's cooked in a vacuum bag, it affects the texture of the chicken,

[28:59] makes it spongy and gives it that, you're more apt to have that feeling. I'll describe it this way. Then when you bite into it, It's excessively juicy at the beginning, but then turns to fibrous pulp as you chew. You know what I'm talking about? You felt it. Yeah. That's my feeling. But texture aside, assuming I've pulled a hard vacuum on a bag of chicken breasts and cooked it through to pasteurization time

[29:22] and temp. How long will the cooked chicken, then keep in sealed bags refrigerated before spoilage occurs. I tend to batch cook, and I've had bags keep almost 2

[29:33] weeks smelling and tasting okay so far, but recently I had a batch smell off after 6 days. I reckon it's an anomaly. Might have effed up a seal on that batch. Well, the question is, if you effed up to seal on that bash, the one that smelled off, like, did you get, did the bags blow? In other words, did they inflate? So a lot of times, if something's gone wrong, there's 2 things that can happen, you can just see that you have a loss of

[29:57] seal. This is especially, I forget to say, did you bone them? Did you bone them? I can't, I can't see. See, if you, if you don't, let's say you, let's say you have chicken

[30:09] breasts. Now, this is before I get to your safety question. Let's say you have chicken breasts and the bone, there's still a bone attached to them. Now, if you suck a very, very hard vacuum, like a, like, wait till the machine gets down to its full vacuum and then allow it to suck for an additional 30 to 40 seconds, right?

[30:24] You'll evacuate most of the air most, the air out of the bones. Uh, and then you'll, you know, you'll be able to get a good seal and you'll be able to uh, have the bag stay tight. However, if let's say that chicken was a little bit warmer than the rest of the chicken. Then it's never going to get down to the super low vacuum. You might not pull all the air out of the bones. And that case, when you cook, air will seep out of the bones because bird bones are hollow, and you'll get a puffed bag, right? So that's one way you can get a puff bag on a chicken. But let's assume that didn't happen, right? You can sometimes you can get a pinhole leak, right? And usually if you look at it really closely. there's a little fold in the bag seal where it didn't seal right, or the edge of the bag got too close to the edge of the bar, and sometimes you can get a little pinch or a crimp

[31:10] mark, and where the sealer is towards the edge of the bags, and you'll notice you don't have a good seal, or there'll be like a little piece of herb or

[31:18] something they cut across one of the bag ceiling points, and you can see. And there you'll see you'll get some leakage in and what you'll have is a knot type bag. It usually won't give you a blown bag. A blown bag happens when there's bacterial growth in the bag, and it literally inflates from gas that's being produced. And if you get a blown bag on anything that you weren't specifically trying to get a blown bag on. So for instance, like if you're making sauerkraut, you're trying to grow lactic acid bacteria in an anaerobic

[31:49] environment. In that case, if the bag doesn't blow, it's not working properly, right? So, uh, anytime you get a blown bag, something terribly um, wrong uh, has happened. Anyway, I reckon it's an anomaly. I might have messed up the seal on that batch, but I'm also curious as to what makes stuff go bad in the absence of air and any pathogens since it's been pasteurized. For reference, I tend to cook my chicken breasts in flattish 200 gram bags, I

[32:15] guess portion 200 grams, at 62 degrees Celsius for about 2 to 3 hours. Thanks in advance and for all your time doing the show every week. It's been an awesome source of information. I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to listen to now that I've wiped out the batlog. Cheers, Rachel from Hong Kong. All right. So there's there's a lot of stuff going on here. First of all, as regards the shelf life, I'll read this is from the Minnesota, this is Minnesota's food code. I don't know why Minnesota, that's the 1st people that came online when I popped it up, right? So it's the Minnesota food code requires the shelf life under refrigeration of products that are vacuum packaged in a retail store, right?

[32:50] So that would be like what you use. be limited to 14 days. However, food manufacturing places that are inspected by USDA or state get 30 days or longer. And the reason is is because they don't trust retail operations to have the levels of safety and quality on the products as they

[33:10] go as they go into the bag, and they don't trust the pasteurization procedures and the coal chain holding ability of a retail outlet to guarantee safety for 30 data

[33:22] longer. But if everything is done right, right, then they're like,

[33:26] oh, yeah, 30 days, no problem. So you can keep stuff that long, as long as you're cooking stuff properly and maintaining it. Now, as for bags that appear to have been pasteurized and

[33:37] still blow off and go bad. Now, you're quite right, most spoilage bacteria, especially things that stink and smell bad. Do not grow in anaerobic environments, i.e. they will not grow in a

[33:50] vacuum. And in fact, that is why people are worried about the safety of vacuum

[33:55] cooked products because typically, uh, when things spoil uh, in an aerobic environment, i.e. with oxygen, when they spoil

[34:03] an aerobic environment, they smell terrible. And so you can use sliminess, like because it grows slime, you can take smell, and all these things indicate that bacteria have been growing on it, and that it's no longer good nor safe to eat.

[34:16] The problem is, is that in a vacuum, That's not the case. So in a vacuum, you can get pathogens that grow. They're particularly worried about things like botulism, listeria, perfringens, these sorts of things, that can grow in the absence of producing a

[34:34] smell or sliminess, and sometimes in the absence of producing a gas that would indicate that there has been growth at all.

[34:42] And that's why people are worried about the safety of vacuum packed foods in general. Now, when things go wrong in a bag, usually it's due to improper

[34:53] pasteurization. And so that can happen, and then you can get the growth. If you don't kill all the vegetative cells, typically in a pasteurizing

[35:01] procedure, in 62 degrees Celsius, for 2 to 3 hours and something that is fairly flat is more than enough to properly pasteurize a chicken breast, more than enough.

[35:12] Typically, right? If you get blow off in the bag, you're getting something that can grow in an anaerobic environment that's not spore forming.

[35:22] So we're talking about lactic acid bacteria. Most of the time, you're going to kill lactic acid bacteria, 100% of the time, if you pasteurize it, you're going to kill the lactic acid bacteria and they're not forming spores, you shouldn't have that kind of a problem. Typically when you do have that kind of a problem. I ascribe it usually either, as you say, to a leak where bacteria can get in, or to a situation where you have, like, 2 or 3 bags touching each other. And in fact, the temperature on the inside of that bag didn't actually get up to where you think it should have fast enough.

[35:52] So sometimes that can incubate bacteria in the bag, in which case it probably tasted bad right when you took it out of the bath. Or, um, It hasn't killed everything and it can grow later. Or you have like a knife jab and some bacteria have survived on the inside of the meat that somehow got there.

[36:10] It didn't pasteurize all the way through because you had layer on layer on

[36:13] layer, and then it grew over time. The other thing is, is that I have this sneaking suspicion that in certain cases of

[36:22] this, there are other things going on. And so if you go to this book called Principles of Modified Atmosphere and

[36:28] Subi product packaging, edited by Jeffrey Farber and Karen Dodds, if the pH inside of the

[36:34] bag. And so this has happened enough that it warrants some, um, some thinking at a pH greater than about 5.8, right? There are things that are like thermophilic and mesophilic that might be able to survive and can grow

[36:49] in anaerobic things. For instance, uh, and this is just, you know, off the top of the Wikipedia and this book's

[36:57] head. I haven't researched it. Uh, and taro bacteria, uh, uh, Brocco thrix and Shelonella putrefactions, which is also known as altero monas putrefactions, and they can cause stink and grow in an anaerobic environment and may not be killed unless you really make sure it's pasteurized right.

[37:15] But I have a sense that that's kind of what's happening. Um, obviously, if it smells bad, don't, uh, don't eat it, right? Doesn't make any damn sense. anyway. Gus wrote in. Hey, my name is Gus. I'm a college student in Kentucky majoring in biology and chemistry. I actually love how scientific and detailed you guys get on the show. Without my 2 years of biology and chemistry classes, I'm not sure I'd be able to understand half of what you guys are talking

[37:37] about, but that's what I love. In my spare time, I love to make, uh, bean to bar chocolate. Nastasia hated making bean to bar chocolate. Do we make that? All the time, remember? We didn't just make the ketchup thing. We made a couple of batches 1st of regular bean chocolate. Remember grinding all of the cacao nibs in cacao in the champions and then all of that cocoa liquor mess everywhere. It was drowned out by the other nonsense we had to do. Yeah, you didn't hate that as much as you hated like all of the nut butters. in the sand thing. I hate was the combo tests and the clarifying grapefruit juice by hand. Yeah. Well, you said you're never going to do that again. Never. Never. In my spare time, I love to make bean de bar chocolate. I order the raw beans and then ferment, roast, winnow, grind, and finally conch them. I ground them by hand for a while in a mocha jete before recently upgrading to a countertop

[38:28] Melanger. I usually end up with some pretty delicious results and I enjoy the process. However, I'm pretty blind as far as the science behind it all. Like sugar and fat structure, tempering, blooming, et cetera, and would love to learn more. Do you know of any books or other literature that really dive deep into this, the nerdier, the better? I haven't had much luck finding anything. So any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much. Keep up the great work, Gus. Okay. So back in the day, when I used to order, when I used to Xerox, all of the technical books out of the science and business industry library in here in New York City, the classic chocolate work was by a fellow named

[39:06] Minifi, and it was just known as Minifi chocolate. It's very industrially oriented, and it's also, it's been updated a couple of times, and it is, I think, still one of the industry standards, but it's

[39:18] A, extremely expensive, like, uh, like $150, $200. And B is, I think, a little bit out of date. However, I'm sure they have it in the in your library at school for you to go look at. Um, it's not what I what I recommend. Um, the, the kind of book that came out, uh, I don't know what it was 10, 15 years ago, that everyone

[39:41] started, um, buying that it's, it's a couple of things. It's blessedly short. You can do an Amazon look inside of, and it's only 30 bucks, is the science of chocolate by Steven Beckett. There's a paperback, there's a hardcover, and one of them, I forget, is on Amazon Prime for like 30 bucks, and it's decent. It's short, and it's to the point. It gives you the science. It's still focused on bigger operations, not necessarily on kind of what you're doing, but I would get that. And then, in terms of the actual, and that'll give you some of the science, but in terms of the actual, like, putting your hands to recipes, I would go on any of the websites out there where people are doing their own kind of bean to bar stuff,

[40:22] like, uh, chocolate alchemy instead, which is who we use when we were originally getting the Santa. There's a lot of different melangeurs out there. I would say, uh, in addition to the Mellinger, you'd be, uh, it'd be good if you went and got yourself a champion juicer, that's still what I would use for the initial

[40:37] grindout of the, um, of the, uh, the, you know, the

[40:41] cacao uh, beans or nibs or whatever you're using to do it. But yeah, so I would get a hold of champion, but yeah, get the science of chocolate 2nd edition. and let me know what you think. I think it's pretty good. I don't think there's anything better at that price point, that's for sure. Um, I'm assuming that you don't have infinite money to spend since you're a college student majoring in biology. Am I right? I'm assuming. All right. Uh, Barry wrote in. This is kind of a hard question. I don't know what to answer. Maybe, like, take, I wanted to get McGee on this, but, you know, he's been in Spain, so I don't know. Barry writes in, rather than wait to see, if there is a show, here's my question for the next show. I guess it was a show a week where we didn't necessarily going to have a show. don't know. How does a chef create the taste sensation of individual flavors that meld into one? For example, if I make shrimp étouffé, it tastes like shrimp étouffé. But when a chef does it, on the initial bite, when a chef does

[41:37] it, on the initial bite, one tastes the red pepper, then the celery, then the onion followed by the tomato. As one chews, each one of the clear individual flavors melts together to taste like a shrimp etifé, how does this work?

[41:50] And secondly, how does a chef create an initial spicy flavor that passes and

[41:54] is followed by a different lingering spicy flavor later? Well, Huh. How do you create things that meld? It's a complicated, that's a really complicated question. I don't really, it's in the, it's kind of hard. I've never really used kind of do those kinds of things, um, you know, kind of naturally. One thing you can do, uh, Barry, is, um,

[42:18] you include things that that bridge. So, for instance, like, if you need something to linger, and you're gonna add some acidity, you want, and you need to draw, for instance, the front of the palate towards the back of the palate, and you know something's missing, you can add an acid, like something that,

[42:36] like, lime that's gonna pull, and so, like, a lot of spicier cuisine, you'll see, and I think it's not just because that's where it grows, you'll see lime in it instead of

[42:44] lemon, and the reason is, is that lime's gonna integrate across the flavor palate longer than, um,

[42:51] lemon will, because the malic acid has a longer trail out. So like when you're tasting something, a lot of times when things integrate, it's either because you've put something in with too high of a high note, like a particular spice, they just

[43:04] hits one note too hard, and you need to bring the rest of this stuff up to kind of beat that note down.

[43:09] Or a lot of times what happens is you'll have a drop down somewhere in the mid-palette of you eating. When I think about flavors. I tend to think about the time progression of what goes on in something and then try to figure out kind of where

[43:26] things um, drop out. And usually that's where you'll notice things don't meld well. Like a lot of times in the middle of a palette, and that's where, you know, that's why we tend to add a bunch of salt, which rounds out all the flavor.

[43:39] That's why we tend to hit everything with acid at the end because it doesn't just brighten, but it rounds everything out. But I don't really know how to answer your question in other words. I guess I need more thought on it. Need more thought about how to round it out. What do you think, Nastasia? Do you know what eggs at duvet is? Eggs in like in a duvet cover? It's when you fart under the computer. What does that have to do with this? You just think about it? welcome to my life. People welcome to my life. Trying to talk about how to make flavors melt together. like, you know what melts together, farting under a comforter. Et touffé. Etouffe. Going into New Orleans, by the way, for Tales of the Cocktail. Speaking of a Touffe. Harass them down there, everybody. I'll be there a blessedly short period of time. I'm going there from I'll be there on Thursday night and Friday night. I know your cell phone number circulates somewhere online. Please, please. I'm bringing the centrifuge with me, by the way. So for those of you, the tales of the cocktail, I'm going to do a demo of it for the cat programs, get some feedback for some bartenders.

[44:46] Yeah, evil. You're the evil person. You know what I'm saying? Yep. Just like, you know, have to be mean to me for no reason. Well, one time I put my away message when I went on vacation and

[45:00] said, if you want to contact Dave, It was for other people that we work with. I forgot that the radio show people email me. And then your number was there. Nastasia also put the, like, swipe credit card for the original

[45:14] Sears all alert. number. I don't know how that happened. And people are calling me. They're like, who are you? Why did you charge my credit card? I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm like, hey, what are you talking about? Like, you're a thief. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And then remember, like, people would be, like, people would order a sears all on Kickstarter, right? Or Shopstarter. And then they would forget. And they didn't know what Booker and Dax was. You know what I mean? It's usually like the wives of the men who bought... Why is it men? Why are you going sex with on this? No, because it was usually women that were like, what is this charge on my bill? Why did you check with your husband? I checked you. did you buy a gift for anyone? Right. And she's like, no. because I remember that one specifically in that chair. I was like, Nastasia, how the hell did they get my personal number to call about credit

[46:06] card stuff? So weird. Yeah, they match, I don't know. Yeah. And so, so, you know, to get back in Nastasia, like the time she sent me on Spirit

[46:18] Airlines next to, you know, next to, well, a woman and her fake service dog, you know what I mean? The, uh, I gave him her number. I was like, you need to call Nastasio. Yeah. Um, okay. Mark calls in. This is a Burning Man question. I'm not going to be able to answer this question right now. I gotta think on it. Okay, so go to mozzarella. No, I'm going to do it. I'm going to talk about it, and then someone else will have a suggestion, I hope. One big Siri question, Siri question. part of the joke here. I'd like to serve a 1000 creme brulees at this year's Burning Man festival in the Nevada desert, but what to serve these in? First of all, We got to ask Jordan. Jordana Ross. She's going to come on the show in 3 weeks, I think. That'll be before burning that because she's going, too. Yeah, because she served some sort of cocktail at the Burning Man last year. Didn't use limes. I don't want to get into it. I don't wanna get into it. She came, we talked about how to do what we wanted to do. You insulted her and then she did something else entirely. Which is fine. Just don't ask. You know what I mean? But anyway, that's not my point. My point is, is that, is that Mark, let me ask you this. Is the Burning Man crowd, the Crème Brué kind of crowd, that's the question. What do you think? I think no, but I don't know. Are you going to be able to chill these cremeble? anyway, whatever. The crème brulee is sorted. Some investigations led me to this product. Dr. Otker, or Otker, it's that German brand. They make the vanilla tuker as well. You know what I'm talking about, right? You see it? Yeah. Crème brulee mix. It's prefab. Just need milk and cream. Foolproof and tastes okay, and it's cheap, which will come in handy since we're

[48:02] going to prepare this in an RV with a very limited kitchen. We also get to insult the French kitchen at large. Now, by the way, I looked at the ingredient list for that sucker, and it's starch and carraginen, and milk powder. So it should stay in the heat because the carragin should keep it set no matter what. It's not gelatin-based, so or anything like that. So the carragan should work. Um, okay. I can't work out how to make the ramekins. However, they must be edible, since there's no waste at Burning Man, and we definitely don't want to bring pottery Ramekins, although how Burning Man would that be to like literally like slip cast a 1000 things, eat the creme brulee, just shatter it into the freaking desert and it becomes pot of the earth. Out of the earth. Seems like it's very burning man, right? You know what I mean? Like, those little, like, free game, like... Do you ever do Burning Man? Oh no. What if you had no family? Would you ever do Burning Man? Don't people have to get naked? I don't believe you naked. No. Except on your funeral. That's what you wanna be. I don't like heat. I don't like heat. I like it gets cold at night, like super cold. I like that. I like cold at night. I like the desert. Well, yeah. I don't really like collaboration. You get to choose who you want to be with. I like to kind of like be left alone. You can do that too. Then why go to Burning Man? Can I be left? Can I just go camp there? By myself? Not in burning man, but you really want to be all alone in the desert? Not all alone. Yeah. So you can, like, choose who to speak to. Isn't it like large petroleum fires? I don't know. I don't know. I've never been. I've never been. Look, I look, I've had plenty of friends who have gone and said it's life-changing, although I'm not sure their life afterwards was better than their life beforehand. You know what I'm saying? Like I've gone I've known people who, like, it was life changing in the sense that, like, they ended up breaking off their engagement and then, like, going to a downward spiral for 5 years. You know what I'm saying? I think it's different for everybody. Kind of like LSD, different for everybody. Like some people, they spiral off and some people it, like, you know, leads to enlightenment. It can go either way. What did Jordan say? She loved it. Obviously, she's going to go again. Is her boyfriend Daniel going? Did he go to the 1st time? I didn't even walk up a rock without crying. Like, wow. Wow. Nastasia insulting our friends on air. All right. I can't work out how to make the ramekins. They must be edible, since there's no wasted Burning Man, and we don't want to bring pottery ramekins. I'm thinking of a caramel or corneto slash cookie ramekin alternative, but making these will be very labor

[50:45] intensive and also they're going to get soggy, right? They're going to get soggy. Ramekins? A cookie ramekin. First of all, think of all those freaking cookies. I think a super baller move would be to slip cast a whole crap ton of these things. Like... Where is he coming from? No, do it in Nevada. Then you have to bring a... The plaster mold? Yeah. I guess it would take a 1000000 years. And you wouldn't be able to fire them, so you'd get clay in your cream and delay. Right. Although, would it be hot enough to fire them? No. No, no, no, no, no, no. By the way, PS, although you could build a giant fire outside of your RV and be firing

[51:27] the clay. That is super baller, man. That is what you were supposed to be there for. That is so super ballers. Like slip casting in the desert is super easy. Here's why, right? You got your you got your slip mix, right? which is like a liquid. And then it's just these plaster, these 2 plaster, um, uh, things. So you pour it in to the to the ramekin. So let's say you have this big piece of plaster that has the cut mold shaped in it. You ever done slip casting sauce? No. So what you do is you pour it in. You fill up the entire cup mixture, right? And you let it sit. Depends on how thick you want it, but like the ones I used to do. You only had them let it. You use the earth as the... I don't know. depends if they have clay there. But you let it sit, the slip makes, you let it sit for like, you know, however long, like 30 minutes.

[52:13] The plaster absorbs the moisture from the

[52:17] slip mixture and forms a leathery layer right next to the plaster. You then dump the rest of the slip out and you have this thin, perfectly hollow. I used to make vases this way for art for an art sculpture I was

[52:30] doing the uzzes. And then you have this thing that you can then go fire and then you do it again. You can do it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. You can keep making them, and I made big, like, 2.5 feet tall vases, and in the course of a couple of days, I made like 40 or 50 of them.

[52:47] So if you're making little ramekins in like in like a master mold thing, you could make a crap ton of them. It just seems super baller to like make a kiln out in the desert. whatever. not going to do it. It just seems like super baller thing to do, or maybe get someone else to do that. Or have your camp do it. All right, but going back to a cookie. I think cookies a pain in the butt. And also, in order for a cookie to work, it's going to have to be so thick that you're going to be hauling 8 tons of cookie out there. You know what I'm saying? And they're gonna break. What do you think about? I mean, you could do like a like a creme brulee tostada shell. That would hold anyway. You hate that idea? Also, the problem is, is that how you get the crème brulee wants to be cold, right? Are you gonna chill it? But if you chill it in the ramekin that's edible, the ramekin that's edible is gonna get all nasty, right? It's going to get all floppy and nasty because there's going to be a liquid contact. get me? See the problem? Why does he want to do criminal... Anyway, that's not the point. But the point is, the Karaginen, like, the ultimate would be if you could do, if you could, if you could set the, the

[53:52] crème brulee in a tube. A tube. Who is that Alaska senator? It's a series of tubes. Remember that? That's how you describe the internet. and set it in a tube and then slice it into disks and let them thaw in your ramekin, then you could use almost anything because they wouldn't need to be around that long before you served it.

[54:10] It wouldn't get soggy, right? But the issue is, is that I don't know if the kerogen they're using. I didn't have time to look it up, is going to be free thaw stable, but you got to run a test on that. Um, anyway. Oh, yeah, maybe unless we freeze the creme brulee blocks, cut them up in portions and coat them. Yeah, but lots of work. By the way, I'll think on it a little more. They said best I could find were pre-fab waffle bowls. Not quite it, but will do. That's kind of expensive. I'll think on some more. Maybe someone in the cooking issues land has some theories. One thing I'll say. Remember, creme brulee is one of the few things that I recommend using a naked torch on instead, especially for Burning Man,

[54:48] naked torch, and not a searsal, because it just is. one of those things. But I'll think on that. I'll think honest and what. I thought you didn't believe in naked. Only for creme brulee, do I believe in naked? All right. So, all right, quick one. Daniel writes in question about pressure cookers, I'm not even going to get to talk. I made mozzarella this week. And by the way, it's one of the, do you ever have anything in your life, nostalgia that, like, you've had such a traumatic experience that you won't ever do it again? Uh, yeah, I like ravioli. Yeah. So like 23 or 24 years ago, right? 23 years ago, I was like 22. And I was at my wife's apartment. I was still in college or just gotten out of college. She was in, she was, you know, had her 1st job. There was no internet, and I wanted to make mozzarella. And I'll just say that it was a freaking catastrophe, like a freaking catastrophe. There was no place to look it up. I was just what I could gather from books on how it was done. I didn't know how to make curds. I was not a professional. And my wife, for the past 23 years, has made fun of my mozzarella attempt 23 years

[55:59] ago so much that I have never tried it again, ever until last night. And I have to say, success. But we'll talk more about it later. But yeah, she like she was like, she was like, you should leave that kind of stuff to the professionals. This was, you know, obviously I wasn't a food professional at the time. But you know what? Like, this weekend, I was like, tomatoes are gonna grow, where my tomatoes are growing. There's no good mozzarella. I need to learn how to make mozzarella again. And plus, you know what, damn it. I am professional now. You have that cheese shop near you. In New York? No, in Connecticut. Cheese shop. Do they make mozzarella? Yeah. Is it good? Yeah, we yeah. The mozzarella is good? is a cheese shop. Yeah. Got a minute. I'll look it up. Okay. A minute. Daniel, I'm gonna get your question in a minute. Question about pressure cookers. A good 100 episodes ago, call or ask about what pressure cookers you would recommend. he buy and why. I'm having a hell of a time finding the episode, thought you might answer it again. What stovetop pressure cooker would you recommend ignoring price? I think you've mentioned the coon recon model in the past? That's the only one I like that I've used myself personally. How does that model compare to the Fistler Vita Quick? I hate the word Videquik? Because it implies that you're keeping vitamins inside in a pressure cooker, which is, ho, ho, ho cum. But, uh, it looks like a really good unit. The Fistler Vita Quick looks like the coon recon in that it has a pressure gauge that goes up and down and so allows you to gauge the pressure without it venting. And as you might know, in my

[57:25] tests, I've noticed venting pressure cookers tend to make stocks that don't taste as good.

[57:30] That's been my experience backed up by many, many trials. So anyway, so the Fistler Vita Quick looks good. I don't have any personal experience with it. America's test Christian rates the Fistler quite a bit higher than the Coon recon model. Again, I don't know. I've never used the Fistler. Are there assessments valid in your opinion? I also can't get a hold of their. Someone can send me their stuff. I don't have their password to their website. They claim the coon recon model had the most evaporative loss out of all the models they've tested. If that's the case, then they're not testing the coon recon right, Dakun recon, if you overshoot the pressure gauge, you'll get evaporative loss because it's telling you to turn down. But my coon recon, when it's operating properly, is dead silent and there's no, uh, there's no venting out of it. So you say, have you found this to be true? No. I also I looked up their thing. I looked up their test, they recommend the Fagor, and I hate, I don't, I hate. I didn't like that, the Fagor, and they made a classic error. I'm going to leave you with this and we could talk more about it next time if you want more questions. They made a classic error that people with the fagor pressure cooker make. The fagor pressure cooker, when you close the lid and you turn on the heat and it starts building pressure, a little button

[58:40] goes, poop, and indicates that there is pressure in the unit. It does not indicate that you have reached your operating pressure. So if you use the Fagor model and think that that little yellow dot is an indication that you have reached 15

[58:54] PSI on the inside of your pressure cooker, you are mistaken.

[58:59] The only way you can figure out whether you've actually reached that pressure is whether or not it's venting steam through the pressure regulator that's set to that pressure,

[59:07] right? Because the button doesn't know whether you're at 5 PSI or 15 PSI or what. It just knows that it's sealed and that you started building pressure. Classic mistake. Anyway, we could talk more about it next time on cooking issues.

[59:27] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes

[59:41] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.

[1:00:00] Thanks for listening.