[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network Broadcasting Live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.

[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold. She's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from the Bruce P3 in Bushwick. every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, one o'clock, you know, Tuesdays. You know how it works. Listen, very special day here in the studio, join with Nastasia. the Hammer Lopez as usual. We got Dave in the booth. Yeah, I like that. Cut your cut your applause off like, there's a boom. claws gone. We have. Yeah, yeah, there you go. There you go, Stas, here plus. We have formerly from Popular Science. Now, Paul, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you call yourself now? Paul Adams. Yeah, just plain Paul Adams? That'll do. Master of drones, master of you, but you, like, how much of your mental life is devoted to each component of things you're

[1:17] interested in. You're interested in 100% of everything. Yes. So it's like 100% drones, 100% cocktails. science. High functioning. Scio, radio, 100%. All of it. All of it. I like that. It's a good technique. So, it's a very special day. Call in your questions, a two, a 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Should we just start with the... Okay, okay, folks. The, uh, by the way, happy Thanksgiving. This is the Thanksgiving episode of the cooking issues. So if you have any Thanksgiving questions, please call them in. We were going to have today Mark Ladner from Del Posto. I talk about his new book, but I think we're going to do that right after the break, right? Yep. So that, you know, we're gonna push. Although, It would have been nice because then people could on Black Friday go out and purchase his book. know. Maybe purchase, purchase the book, and then we'll come and we'll talk about it. He'll come in next week. Is he already scheduled? All right. So, uh, for those of you that are listeners to the show, uh, we at Booker and Dax have been working for, it seems like forever. Yeah. on Centrifuge, building a centrifuge specifically for the kitchen and bar. And that's actually why Paul is here. Paul is helping us out with what's about to happen. We are at the point in production where we are actually getting the tooling made for the actual item. And so we are going to put it on pre-sale on Black Friday. So yay, pre-sale. So, um, Nastasia, do you know, uh, like when we're going to put the video, are we going to put the video up before the

[2:58] presale? So that people can watch that video or no? You know, we haven't decided yet? This is the 1st you've asked me. Yes, I know. This is why they call it live radio. What do you want to do? Well, maybe people on the chat room can weigh in. We have a we have a. Obviously they'd want to see the video. Yeah, the real problem the real problem with the video is I know, here's the reason I don't want to do it, right? There's a 1st of all, here's one thing. Our videographer had a family emergency. So, you know, we had to shoot at ourselves, and actually, I'm late today for a decent reason. I was actually editing the thing. So listen, I am not a video editor. So if you're like, blah, blah, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. Would you rather bias interviews made by a professional video or better professional center views? That's a good point, Paul. It seems like you're trying to get an award for this video. I'm not trying to get an award status. Like, I don't want to hear the hate from people of why do you do this? Why'd you do that? Why is it? I got it from my wife. Yeah, for my wife. Even for my own wife. 's like, why'd you do this? I was like, because I didn't have the other shot to put in. But you didn't go to school for video editing. I had to go to school for fine arts, but not for video editing. That's true. Anyway, point being, I don't want to hear if you have any complaints about the way the video was shot. I simply don't want to hear them, but keep them for yourself. Bias entrifuge. shoot your own promotional video. Yeah, yeah. Right. Or, you know what? You should have a contest. a promotional video. Oh, it's a good one. a good one. You know what, though? I take it all back. As long as you buy the centrifuge, say whatever you like. As long as you buy it. Uh, yeah. So anyway, so the point is, we made the video with the

[4:33] proto, the name of the centrifuge is... The spins all. Spins off. Spins off. The culinary centrifuge. And I already got someone on Twitter when I hashtagged it. Someone asking me whether it only spins some things. No, spins everything. Won't necessarily clarify everything. Won't clarify a rock, but you can spin a rock as long as you have enough liquid in it to balance out. So I think I've talked about it before, but it's going to go on pre-sale on modernistpantry.com slash

[5:01] spinzall. The link is up now, but it's just a splash page. It's gonna go... not the actual link. What's not the actual link? What you just said. What is it? It's blog.modernistpantry.com slash

[5:15] Finzol. right now. But it's going to be, it's going to be monitorspantry.com. I was gonna say, because the video the video also says that. So anyway, back to what I was saying. The reason I don't necessarily want to put up the video live is because it says, order, pre-order your spins all now. Only it's not now. It's in 3 days. Right. And we're gonna hear about it. If I put it up, we'll hear about it. Anyway, should I even talk about it? Should I talk about it or should I just say watch the video? Talk about it. Talk about it. Okay. What is the spins all, Dave? How does it work? Well, Paul, that's an excellent question. Uh, so, uh, basically in a nutshell, it says. I give you the pitch. So the centrifuge is, if you ask anyone, if you ask, and we didn't have time to go out and get their, what's it called,

[5:59] it's their, you know, testimonials, but we'll get them at some later point. So, Chris Young, back when he was, I think he wrote that section of modernist cuisine,

[6:09] but, you know, all the modernist cuisine crew. I believe this. I think Wiley believes it. I think Tony Cagliaro believes it. I think, you know, a lot of people believe that the one piece of modern gear that is kind of beyond a lot of people from a price standpoint, it isn't the

[6:26] rotovap, because that one's not as necessary to your day-to-day work in a

[6:30] kitchen. It's the centrifuge. Now, especially for bar work. Centrifuge, you need it. You know what I mean? you don't need it. But if you're gonna do the kind of stuff that I like to do, you need it. If you're going to make your own Orjas, it's extremely useful. If you're going to, um, you know, do carbonation, you need to clarify things. If you want to do hustinos. just a wide variety of things. For cooks, it makes like fantastic herb oil, you got the no churned butter. There's just a bunch of like good techniques that it's really, really good for, but it's the one piece of equipment that's really kind of been beyond

[7:01] most people's capabilities, both home and pro. So for professionals, the problem is that the centrifuge is extremely large. So it's, you know, it's the size of, uh, it's basically like takes up the same room that an oven would take up, uh, in a kitchen, but you also need to be able to get to it,

[7:20] right? It also needs balancing because they have big buckets, super heavy. It costs like 8 to $10,000, but those are nice because they do like, they do like 3 liters at a time, really, like more like 2 because you don't fill the buckets up all the way, but like, they'll call like 3

[7:33] liter centrifuches. But anyway, so you're looking at 8 to $10,000, $10,000 if you need the refrigerator, and most of you do, because those centrifuges tend to heat products up quite a bit. Um, on the home side, I mean, that's just ridiculous. Who's got a house? I mean, I guess if you live way out in the burbs and your kitchen's in your garage, you could have the space to have a centrifuge there, but you just don't have the space. And also, it's very hard to justify at home spending 8 to $10,000. But the alternative for a centrifuge to indo all these things has basically been the $200 Uh, we'll call them the champion or, you know, Paul, you have. 's yours called? Clina seal. Clina seal, which is designed for the veterinarian blood market, I believe. Oh, really? Yeah. Really? Veterinary blood market? Huh. Hmm. So the, uh, but Clinton Seal is a terrible name. It sounds like seal the musician. No? Or like seal the animal. Like, why would you, oh, seal because it's for blood, so it's sealed, so it doesn't spray, like, dog blood in your eyes? It sounds like some form of birth control. Ooh, wow, that's rough. It's going to a weird place, Dave. No, actually, it's named for a sealed musician who invented it. Oh, okay. Well, then I like it a lot. I want to buy one, even though I have no use for it. But these small units, the problem is they use these tiny vials that are impossible to clean out. You're really only making, like, uh, all said and done, like, uh, you know, 80 milliliters at a time or 100 milliliters at a time. It's pathetic. It's horrible. So anyway, so the idea is, is how do you get something that can make a reasonable quantity in a small package and you move to what's called an open bucket.

[9:00] So we built a 500 milliliter rotor, the rotor holds 500 milliliters at a time, but a real 500 milliliters, not like, oh, the capacity is 500 milliliters, but it really holds 300,

[9:11] it holds 500 milliliters of product. Um, and it spins that much and it's huge and open, so it's really easy to get the stuff out of. It's got fins. It balances kind of like a dishwasher. So the way a dishwasher, sorry, washing machine balances, is it uses a liquid ring balance. So, as luck would have it, or as I say, as physics would have it, when something spins, if there's a liquid in it, that liquid will tend to move such that it counteracts imbalance that's inside the rotor, it tends to self-balance.

[9:38] The trick with it is. And I can say every, I mean, this is patents on this or go back decades and decades and decades and decades because washing machines have been a problem for a long time,

[9:46] and spinning ring balance has been around since forever. But one of the problems is, so you need to keep the liquid from sloshing so that it can actually balance properly. One way to do it is to increase the viscosity of the liquid. I can't do that because I don't know what you're going to spend. So we have fins inside the bucket that keep the entire ring of stuff rotating as a tourist, but then we also have to allow movement in between. So part of the art is figuring out the shape of the fins on the inside to get it to work right, but also nice

[10:14] thing you take the fins out and you have access to the whole inside of the bucket. The other trick is is that I want you to be able to do more than 500 milliliters at a time. So we have what's called a tube feeder that fits into the rotor that allows you to add product into the

[10:28] centerfuge as it's spinning, and then it pours out. Um, And so that's basically, that's how it works. Now there's some some facts about it that are kind of cool. For those of you that haven't used a lot of centrifuges before. Uh, spinning buckets is what we all use because you need the capacity, but fixed angle rotor, which is the kind of the crappy

[10:47] Clinocille model. actually clarify a lot faster and a lot better, uh, at a given G-force than the uh, than the swinging bucket ones do. And ours acts like a fixed angle rotor, but

[11:00] is like is like a big bucket. So the funny thing is, is that we can actually clarify things most of the time faster than the big centrifuges can,

[11:11] even though we're actually running at half the G-forces, and like half the noise level and like infinitely more safety than the other one

[11:19] is. And the whole thing fits into something slightly larger than a food processor. It's so easy to lift. In fact, that I have it in my backpack. Oh, you'll like this, Nastasi. You enjoy this. This is Nastasia's favorite kind of story. So right after this, we're going to food and wine, right? Anyway, so I'm running up the subway stairs to get here. Uh, and you know how you, sometimes you just don't lift your foot high enough and you kick the stair? Yeah. So I don't lift my foot high enough. I kick the stair and I start going down. Now, I have the centrifuge, the spins all on my back. And so I say, okay, as I'm going down, I'm like, I could try to catch myself. But if I try to catch myself, there's a possibility that I will spin and smack my backpack

[12:08] into this, like, you know, when you catch yourself, if you only catch yourself a little bit, you continue to rotate, you'll spin over and you'll smack in on the other side. So I just went straight down on my knees, right on the stairs. Boom. Like, straight like, boom. I was like, you know what I mean? And then got up and went, but the centerfuge is fine. Centrifuge doesn't care. Well done, Dave. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Anyway, oh, some more interesting facts about the spins all, uh, is that it will run, it runs on either, now, for those of you that don't know, the United States power supplies that we use here are 120

[12:44] volt, Well, whatever. They like 105 to 125, depending on where you are. But the key thing here is that they are 60 cycles per second, 60 cycles. That's the frequency of the power mains. Now, in Europe, right, all of

[12:59] Europe actually runs at 50 cycles per second, 220 to 240 or something, somewhere in there. Now, uh, it's not really the voltage, the voltage is easy. You just put a transformer on it and you can change the voltage. The real problem with equipment is changing the number of the frequency of the power because it changes the speed at which motors operate. The good news in the spins all is that it doesn't care what frequency you put

[13:25] in. So you will need a transformer to use it in Europe or actually, you won't need a, It's interestingly, you won't need a transformer in Japan, Japan's the weird one. It runs at 120 volts 50 cycles, which is crazy. It's the only place in the world, I think, that it uses R voltage, but like a European standard for the frequency. It's crazy. Fake. someone will correct me on this. But anyway. So, um, yeah, so it'll run anywhere in the world with a transformer and an adapter. And the reason is that in order, the centrifuge, most motors, most AC motors, alternating current motors, are locked to some fixed

[14:03] number, or not locked, but they run based on that their RPM is based on some multiple of the line

[14:09] frequency. So when you're running a motor, an AC motor at 60

[14:14] hertz, uh, with 60 hertz power, and you take it to um, a country that runs on 50 hertz power, you're running it at 56th speed, slower by, you know, by a good chunk. And that would not be good for the centrifuge, running it at a slower speed. But luckily, in order for the spins all to work properly, part of the patent, it's patent pending. Did I mention patent pending? Did I mention that? Patent pending, is that the rotor speed moves up and down slightly. So once it reaches its full speed, which, by the way, is about 4100 RPM, it will decelerate and accelerate it, kind of

[14:46] sign, soil, oscillate up and down. And the reason it does that is to create a little bit of angular acceleration of the ring torus on the inside of the spinning

[14:55] thing, and it allows the puck, the solids to form more evenly around the ring. And it actually helps to sediment the stuff faster, uh, because it kind of, from experience. I mean, I haven't done this is just anecdotally, but it kind of helps the particles dig in. It gives me a faster clarification. So, yeah, so it moves up and down. But to do that, the spins all actually creates the frequency that the motor runs at. And consequently it doesn't care what frequency you put into it. So you can run it anywhere. Um, what else am I missing, Paul? Anything else? Oh, it will be NSF certified, UL certified, and CE certified. We're going for all the certifications. Now, you might ask, how much would I have to pay for such a thing? Well, the retail price. is what's the retail price, Nastasia? $999. Do we add the $99 or no? Sure. $9.99? Wait, 999, 99? Yes. But for this pre-sale only. We are going to sell it for? 699. Yes. Yeah, we're not even going to charge the extra ¢99, just

[15:55] $6.99. Shipping will be included in the United States, but foreign people will have to pay

[16:02] for their own shipping. Now, here's the thing. We need to pay for the tooling, and we need to pay for the building them. And Nastasia and I don't just don't have the money.

[16:13] I would pull the money out of my pocket if I could, but I just don't have the money. So we're going to pre-sell them at that price, but if people don't buy

[16:22] them. If we can't get the pre-sales to do it, we just won't make it.

[16:28] So the way the pre-sale is going to work is you're going to, uh, you're going to basically pledge to buy one. It's not actually a Kickstarter, but it's going to run similarly to a Kickstarter, but on the modernist pantry website, you're going to pledge to buy

[16:40] one and then only after we reach our target number. Do we do we officially set the target number yet, Nastasia? I think it's the thousand, right? 1000 units? So $700,000 basically, $699,000. So once we reach that number, then we charge your cards and we go into full production. When do they get them? They will they will ship in June or July? of next year. Now, this is not, by the way, for those of you that were part of the Sears all thing, here's how the Sears all worked. The Sears all, it was Nastasia and Piper, back in Piper worked with us, and I, in the basement of the Booker

[17:19] index lab, we literally made the prototypes for the Sears all, which is the little torch attachment that we

[17:26] sell, out of cocktail shakers. I went to the Bowery restaurant district here in New York City. I bought the smallest 3 piece cocktail shaker that I could find. I took a plasma cutter, cut it into the sears all shape. That's literally how the sears all shape was developed. It was built around the smallest available three-piece cocktail shaker. Then we shipped, we did the Kickstarter, Piper and I in the basement made, I think, 20, right? We made like 20 cocktail shaker searsals in the basement, you know, on Eldridge Street here,

[18:01] mailed them out to chefs, and we did the video with those prodos.

[18:05] That's how we did our Kickstarter thing. And we hadn't yet found a manufacturer or any of that stuff, which is one of the reasons why it took a long time. I think if you've never made something, like produce something, making a single prototype is blindingly easy compared to actually getting something manufactured.

[18:22] It's very, there are more difficulties than you would probably think, right? Nostasi, would you say it's fair? This is not what's happening with the centrifuge, with the centrifuge. We not only have the manufacturer. We have the subcontractors. We've already gone through, like, 5 rounds of prodos, and we're actually in the place where we're going to make the

[18:42] tooling. So I feel a lot more confident with my dates and numbers than I did when we launched

[18:51] the series all. You say that's fair? Yes. Yeah. So what am I missing? Anything? The prototype looks great. It runs great. It's tiny, it's very quiet. It's like a little food processor. extremely impressive to see and operate. Well, thank you. So listen, swear to, this is how this is going to work. From Dave's mouth to what is it? Oh, I can't that's not safe for work, Mustasia. No, I thought it's, oh, your version. Yeah, yeah. It's supposed to be your lip to God's ears. But that's not my, that's not my version. Yeah, it's not my version. My version is not part of the family show ethos that we try to maintain

[19:29] here at cooking issues. But anyway, so that's the extent of the pitch, but I will just say this, that if you do not, if it is not something that you guys are interested in, then we will

[19:45] know, and we won't build it. And to be honest, Nastasi and I will fold up the equipment company. I'll just go do a separate bar and just go rip up. do you mean? Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry. I going to. Well, no, I have a family. I can't be the Leatherman, if you didn't tune into this show where you talked about the Leatherman, was a guy in the 1800s who never spoke to anyone and just wore clothing that he made himself out of discarded

[20:08] bootleather, and like a tin pan that he carried around with him and walked a continuous circuit of 340 or 50 miles once every 34 days, 10 miles a day and never slept inside, you know, a day in his adult life and just did that until he literally dropped dead and was found in one of his

[20:27] caves dead from the mouth cancer that he had the past year, the last year and a half of his life. The leather man. If you look him up on the internet, it is Leatherman Perenz Vagabond. You know, vagabond used to be such a horrible vagabond now sounds like vaguely romantic, right? Because we use we use bum when we mean vagabond, but like back in the day, vagabond was or, you know, was bad, very bad. You didn't want to be a vagabond. Right. Yeah. Anyway, so let's go to a commercial and come back with actual cooking issues questions.

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[22:06] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. That's a new version of that thing. I was in my head, I was thinking... I was thinking, no, but you never had the chill to the next episode section in there. Yeah, that's always been in there. We just never take the midway break. And... So, uh, for the, like, 1st time, my wife is actually listening to what I was saying on the thing and

[22:36] she's like, hey, thanks for making me look like the bad guy, which, you know, again, for, like, throwing her onto the bus. I was like, you know what? That's fair, fair point. Here's the thing, right? One of my all-time favorite things about my wife is that she

[22:51] is, like, straight up honest, no sugar coating, like tells it as she sees it. Like, this is, like, honestly, my one of my favorite things. Like, unlike, and so, like, when something is not like the way that she wants, like, she thinks it's bad, she's

[23:04] gonna say so, which is why she was such a fantastic editor from my book. And, I mean, without my wife, my book, people think I'm like saying this to be, no, without my wife editing the book, the book would not have

[23:15] been, like, anything would have been horrible. And, uh, so, you know, she is like an amazing editor, but on the same side, when you just come from an editing session with someone who's actually a good editor, it is

[23:26] painful, and it is, there is friction involved in the editing process because they take something you've worked on and they shred it into tiny pieces, but only to make it better, but it just, you know, so anyway, so I should not, I should not have tried

[23:39] it. I should not have accidentally thrown her under the bus. Nastasia, on the other hand, he's like, I don't care. I don't care what it looks like or what it reads like, just get it out there, right? Well, we have a different perspective on things, where I think getting it done is better than

[23:54] perfect, and you think perfection is... not perfection. It's like, anyway, whatever. Whatever. Okay, so let's get to some questions. Oh, before I get to, I've got some questions first. Uh, this one is in, you have the answer from Del Posto, right? I have some comments beforehand. By the way, do you like the word? and how do you pronounce it, do you? I always say, like, Induja. What do you say? Paul, you're an Induja man, aren't you? sounds good. Duja, Duja. It sounds not pleasant. Like, is like, right? Yeah. Right. What would you rather have? Would you rather have some delicious salumi or Induja? Would you rather have Momo or Induja? Would you rather have supersata, or as we call a supersada, or would you rather have Hinduja? Would you rather have Spek or Induja? Prosciutto or Induja? Induja sounds like what it is, though. Like, okay, so what it is is a super, it's like a very spicy, you know, very red, very stain

[24:57] your clothes, very fat, heavy, pasty, cured meat product. Yes. Yes. The answer is underneath there. Yeah, but aren't you gonna read it? so that, like, not I have to read both, like a chunk? You need a, you know, yes. We need a what? We got to wrap up in five. Oh no. Yeah, we have another. We got a 510. Hi Dave. The Hammer and Heritage radio peeps. I decided to try the induced recipe from Mark Ladner's excellent Del Posto cookbook and intend to offer it to my guests pre-Thanksgiving dinner.

[25:31] By the way, Nastasia and my editor, Maria Guarnashelli, hate pre-meat and cheese at a large meal. Paul, what are your thoughts on pre-meat and cheese? It will fill you up. So what? It's tasty. See, they hate it because in a classic restaurant, the cheese course comes, of course, at the end. My feeling is at home, home is less formal than at a formal restaurant. That's why it's home and not a formal restaurant, that having cheese.

[25:57] Because it's more like cheese, the cold antipasti kind of idea, but it's

[26:00] with doesn't have to be Italian, right? So you have cheeses, meats, bread, wine while you're waiting for the thing to come out. And then at the end of the meal, that's when you bring out the port and the Stilton. So you bring out cheese again at the end, but I think you can

[26:13] bookend a meal with cheese. It's not problematic. But Nastasia doesn't believe it. Not Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving, in my family, we always assume, like when people... Because I assume we were going to eat at three. Okay, well, sorry for your assumption that was incorrect. But the point is, is that the, like, when you have the, like, no, you say this in every meal. No, I always have cheese at the beginning of... And Maria hates it, and you agreed you nodded your head up and down that you thought that she was right. Maybe just about Thanksgiving. Now, we weren't talking about Thanksgiving. We were talking about meals in general. So basically... Oh, so so you, I did not know that you were the kind of person that says stuff you don't believe just to make people happy.

[26:50] That wasn't the kind of person. I owe the I owe her another book. Okay. I had my butcher grind, the shoulder for the, well, back to the question, folks. I had my butcher grind the shoulder on Saturday and I prepared it within a few hours. The grind was somewhat coarse and I used plastic wrap to form it into a log. Now, if you thought Anduja was a bad word, and Dooja log sounds like even worse. Um, I like it though, but I can't have a lot. So fatty. How much can you eat? Not much. What about you, Paul? Like one... Yeah. I mean, if there's a lot of bread. like, you know what I don't like? like when they used to serve you like a boatload of foie gras with no starch. Like, the thing is, if I'm gonna have something really fatty, like lardo, or like, I just want some starch to cut the fat. You know what I mean? Yep. Okay. Um, the grind with some of course, and I use plastic wrap to form it into a log. The cook, no one can form plastic wrap logs like my man nils. My man knows Norin is the plastic wrap log king. I learned from him and I got pretty good, but Nils Noran can take any. The man can take like a tractor trailer semi and form it into a perfect cylinder using only purity brand plastic wrap.

[27:58] He's a plastic wrap genius. Yeah. Um, The cookbook says a 3 day cure is sufficient. But since I've never had to rely solely on prig powder number 2 before, I was hoping for some assurance that this sausage will be safe to eat by the holiday.

[28:12] Thanks a bunch and keep up the good work. Nick from Cleveland. Now, because it's a Thanksgiving question, Nastasia sent into Del Posto to get an answer for

[28:22] you, and then Mark can talk about it next week when he comes in on the radio as well, but it'll be too late because your family will already have been poisoned by

[28:28] then. Just kidding, we're not going to poison your family. But the a couple comments I'll make straight off the bat. Um, prake powder or instacure number 2 is a curing salt. For those of you that don't do any curing. It's a mixture of salt. And, uh, Powder number 2 is a mixture of sodium nitrite and sodium

[28:48] nitrate, trite and trait. Now, if you don't know, this is all you need to know. Nitrite, ITE is the fast acting version of night trait. So what these things, that's what causes the cure color in meats. It's what it has a specific cured taste. It also, specifically, those nitrites, nitrates, specifically inhibit botulism from growing.

[29:13] So in sausages, which, by the way, botulism, I think, comes from the Latin for, like, sausage, yeah, um,

[29:19] like it's classic because you're taking meat that's been exposed and folding it into an

[29:23] oxygen poor environment, and that's why you can get botulism from it if it's not either

[29:27] cooked or cured properly. So the the nitrites uh, help to uh, prevent

[29:33] or or prevent botular stop obstacleism from growing. Now, nitrates are really just the long acting version of nitrites. So since this is a 3 day cure, I don't see any reason why you would include nitrate in it at all.

[29:47] I don't understand why they're using prey powder number 2 and instead of prey powder number one. Typically, you only use number 2 on long cured products, and by that, I mean things like hams, where you need, because what happens is as this stuff soaks into your meat,

[30:02] over time, nitrate is converted to nitrite and then converted on further to form the products that actually cure the meat.

[30:10] So if you don't require that kind of time lapse or time release rather action on the nitrates, you don't want to use them. So I don't know why he's using number 2 powder. We can ask him next week. I would use number one. That said, there's also a couple of things going on here. The nitrites will immediately prevent botulism from

[30:30] growing, and since you took meat and it was exposed to oxygen, botulism will not be growing in the meat from the

[30:36] get go. So you will be safe on a botulism count. This is just my opinion now. I going to read the answer from Del Posto. The only issue you have is that if there are other bacteria in the meat, for instance, E. coli, or if you're one of these people that believe

[30:49] trichonosis is still a problem in the US pork source, which it isn't really, but if you believe that, or if you're using wild caught meat, and it hadn't been previously frozen for the prescribed number of days to kill

[31:00] trichonella, that's also a possibility, but if there is a bacteria in it, for instance, E. coli is one of the bacteria of interest in

[31:08] muscle, you know, mammal meats. It will take a certain amount of time for that E. coli to be destroyed by the action of salt, dehydration, and the acidification that happens as meat is curing, because bacteria grow in the meat, lactic acid bacteria grow in the meat, drop the pH, i.e. increase the acidity, and it's the combination of loss of water, increase in salt, and increase in acidity, decrease in

[31:37] pH that really prevent a killed bacteria that are there that are present bad bacteria, and prevent new ones from growing. That said, Anduda is such a high fat product that I don't know what the water activity is from the get

[31:51] go because it's such a high fat product to begin with. It might start with an extremely low water activity. I don't know. Do you know Paul? have no idea. No, that makes sense, though. Yes. So, and then I wasn't I didn't have time to look up like how long it takes for things like E. coli to die in certain environments, but these are known

[32:09] curves. But here's the answer, here's the answer from Del Posto. Whenever you are consuming raw, dried, or cured meat, there's always a risk of potential foodborne illness, however, we take the following precautions to do our best to minimize and prevent them.

[32:22] Do you like it? It's like so classic, like classic, like, menu talk, you might die. But, uh, first, always start with whole roast of meat. The potential for foodborne illness in meats takes place in large meat processing plants where 10s of 1000s of pounds of meat are being ground together at a time.

[32:38] There is much less risk for consuming ground meat if it is a whole loin to start that you purchase from a reputable butcher and grind yourself. Secondly, when grinding the meat, be sure that all parts of your grinder are clean and sterilized. Oh my god, whenever anyone says clean and sterilized, what do you think of right away? Willy Wonka. The ceiling had to be, wait, no, wash, right? Washed and sterilized, so you get nothing. Remember this? No. Like, you stole fizzy lifting drink. You don't remember this? Oh my god, you guys aren't Willy Wonkaheads? Dave, Willy Wonkahead? It's been a minute. I forget. Oh, man. Hey, I can't believe all you like... You have kids. Do you watch that like every week? I used to watch it before I had kids every week, but then after I had kids, They got sick of it after a while. Thank God they never got turned onto the new one. Anyway. Second when grinding meat, be sure that all parts of your grinder are clean and sterilized to prevent any

[33:28] cross-contamination, or you get nothing. Uh, like, he was awesome, right? I mean, Gene Wilder? Awesome. Finally, the nitrate and nitrite found in curing salts help to inhibit the growth of bacteria such as botulism that can cause foodborne illness. Yes, the growth of, but it won't necessarily kill stuff that's already there fast enough. That's the question. Eating uncooked meat always comes with a risk. However, by taking these precautions, we limit the chance of foodborne illness substantially, the curing of Induja for this particular recipe is for the flavor development more so than the loss of water that

[33:58] is resulting drying. It is similar to eating a seasoned steak tartare. Hope this answers your question. Happy Thanksgiving. Matt. Okay, so in the in the few seconds that Nastasia is going to give me left before we need to go. I just want to bring up a question. Now, we weren't, this is not a political show, right? And we weren't here last week, which was the week after the election. I'm not going to talk politics. But I'll say pretty much, no matter what side of, you know, you were voting for in the election here, it seems like the country pretty much gave a kind

[34:33] of who gives a crap about, um, kind of sexual assault. That's kind of what happened. It's one of the things that happened. It's like we were like, all of these allegations flying around and it was kind of like a, you know, the country was like, meh, it's not important. Like, it's like, that's the impression I got. I think that's the impression what a lot of people got, which I think is horrifying. And this is regardless of what side you're voting for. And in the, in the wake of that, there was a website, and this is, this is going out, not to the, necessarily the people who listen, who aren't pros, but people who are in the industry, a website popped up very soon after the election called the reality of sexual assault in the

[35:09] cocktailcommunity.com. And when I read it, it was a, uh, it was a blog where a number of women had come forward and explained uh, what it was like to be sexually assaulted by a particular person in the cocktail community, I'm not going to bring up

[35:24] any anyone's name, but a particular person in the cocktail community, uh, and when I was reading it, I was horrified by it, but also I got the distinct impression

[35:34] that, uh, this is actually a much bigger problem than I had

[35:39] realized, that like kind of like not just there's a there's a kind of gross, uh, unnecessary, I think, um,

[35:47] non-inclusive broness about the food industry in general. Yeah. And I think like, you know, I think everyone thinks that that broness is kind of harmless, but it isn't

[35:59] really because it is kind of, it is exclusionary. Like, you don't talk like you talk to your bros when you're around people in, you know, in not normal environments when you want to kind of be nice or human to me, so I think you don't.

[36:11] You know what I mean? So like taking it into a work environment such that like a huge section of the people who are working with you feel naturally excluded is not, I think, a harmless, a harmless thing. Correct. Not, yeah. Anyway, so like, all of that stuff, I think, you know, but at a bare minimum, you would think that someone could go to work and not be, I'm not talking about comments, like, which are also bad, but like straight up sexual

[36:35] assault. I was horrified. And I think one of the problems in the industry. And when we reopen. I know that I'm going to change how our, you know, our training is to be specific. I think we all need to be, when Nastasi, when we had the training at Momafuku for the, like the, everyone's kind of making light of the, of the, uh, harassment training because the way they do it is so goofy and

[37:03] overly, uh, corporate, right? So they sit around and we all do these training things. Is this is this harassment? Is this not harassment? And it's all kind of goofy things. Here's the truth. The truth is, is that I wouldn't want to work in an environment where I

[37:18] can't, I use salty language in the real life. Nastasia uses salty language in the real life. Um, cooks and bartenders can be um, raunchy and salty and like, and and, you know, use bad language and say crazy things. And I think that's all okay. It's everything has to come from a position of respect, right? And a lot of times, it doesn't. There's a difference between saying that someone has to be politically correct and

[37:49] saying, no, what you really want to do is respect your coworkers. Like, that's the issue. And I think the real thing, when it comes to assault, real assault. And sorry to go on about this, but I think it's important, not talked about enough, is

[38:01] that honestly, we know what it is. Like, having goofy training where you, like, oh, wow, that was assault. you know what I mean? No, it's like what we need to train on is letting everybody know that it is completely

[38:14] unacceptable, that like the fact that you're a cook and you're, it's late and you've been out drinking with your coworkers or you're a bartender and you've been

[38:22] drinking. Oh, he was drunk. No, he wasn't drunk. He's he's doing something criminal. He is doing something evil and wrong. If you are someone who tries to use this an excuse, stop now. If you see someone doing it, don't make excuses for them. I think part of the issue here is that there's a whole group of women out

[38:40] there who think that they need to remain silent because everyone else thinks it's okay. I think the main thing that we need to do, everyone needs to come out and say, this kind of crap is unacceptable. This kind of crap will not be accepted, cannot be accepted and cannot be tolerated. So hopefully this is something, I don't know, we could talk about more. Do you think it's an issue we should talk about more or should be talked about more in the community? Respecting coworkers, yes. Respecting coworkers and, you know, don't, like, let everybody know not to, you know, that they shouldn't be silent, that it's not okay.

[39:14] It's not, you know, by the way, if you want to remain, it's up to the, anyone who's had something happen to them, you know, it's up to them what they want to do,

[39:23] right? But for the rest of us, don't allow this stuff to take place, don't make excuses for

[39:30] anyone, cooking issues. Right.

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