[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the

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[0:41] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,

[0:51] Brooklyn. Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips and tricks.

[1:01] Visit blog.motonouspantry.com, and call all of your cooking related questions into 718-497-2128, that

[1:09] 718-497-2128, joined, as usual, in the studio, Barnastasia, of the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Yeah, doing good. And we got my man Dave in the booth. What going on? Also good. That was a stirring read of that ad. I love that. Yeah, well, you know, if you're gonna do, if you're gonna, if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it as part of the, you know, it's, it takes me at least, uh, 500 milliseconds to gear into that voice. You know what I mean? Besides, you ever see me like, when I come in, I'm hacking, like, hacking up blood getting off the bike and like, and then as soon as it hits, we do

[1:41] it. That's what it's all about people. It's not about it's about making yourself feel what you need to feel. Yeah, I mean, that was like Henry V for me out here. Oh, Shackus bar. Okay. So, uh, what do you anything good? Happy Valentine's Day, people. Yeah, does anyone have any anyone out there in Heritage Radioland have any last minute Valentine's Day issues they need to address, call them

[2:10] into 718-497-2128. Well, I mean, I wouldn't take, I wouldn't take relationship advice from either of us. I don't know, maybe Dave could give. We have a whole show based on relationship advice. What's that show, Dave? issues. No, no. What? Yeah, love bites, yeah. Listen, in the, in the, in the lead up to this, uh, where, you know, you guys are pimping out uh, heritage radio. It's like if you want to get behind the scenes in the restaurant world, people, you don't want to go behind the scenes in the restaurant world. That's the last place on earth you want to be. Do you think does anybody think for a second, right? I mean, like, everyone likes those shows where, like, you know, people go behind the scenes and yell at people and all kinds of things are going

[2:49] wrong. But if, like, you felt like you were behind the scenes in the restaurant world. How many people do you think would actually try to get into the business and stuff? Oh, yeah. Behind the scenes and your paycheck is like nothing. That's behind behind the scenes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, the behind the scenes everyone wants to get into is like, yeah, it's like, oh, oh, we're cooking good food, we're yelling at each other. We have camaraderie. you know what I mean? Yeah, no, yeah, right. Yeah, right. You're changing at least your diner's next 15 minutes. But, like, they, but they, yeah, like what they don't see is like, I didn't get the good shift because the managers of Jack, what? You know what I mean? Or, like, you know, the manager is sleeping with that other person, and they got the good shift, and I didn't, and look at my paycheck. You know what I mean? That's the side of the restaurant. behind the scenes. That's the behind the behind the scenes. That's like what's really going on behind the scenes. You know what I mean? Hey, it's good, man. It's all good. Or like, you know what, you know what? Like, the hardest thing. And like, I've never had to deal with it. So, yeah, that's not true. I mean, a long, long time ago, but like, you know, the idea of just not knowing how much you're

[4:02] gonna make. That's the weird thing, not for cooks, but like for front of house people, just have no idea what you're

[4:07] gonna, you know kind of what you're going to make after you average it out. But like, not a busy, not a busy night. You're cut, go home. You know what I mean? It's a weird business. You got a call about crab legs. Ooh, crab legs, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Brandon Bird calling in. Doing well, doing well. Hope you are. I got a nice couple of clusters of king crab legs. Uh, obviously pre-cooked, you know, frozen at sea. Uh, and I was wondering if you had a preferred method of reheating those beyond the

[4:41] usual uh, steaming or if that's the tried and true method for a reason. Um, well, okay, 1st of all, like, like, uh, so what kind of prep, what kind of prep are you doing? Most of the time when I get those things, I do, I do cold prep with them, except for like when I'm actually cooking

[4:56] them, it's the last time I cooked, because we used to do a thing where we would buy whole King Crab live, which is intensely awesome. It's so good. You should do it someday. It's expensive. But, uh, but we steamed the, we steamed it and then we, we chilled it. I served it chilled. I would say, look, they're already cooked at a very high temperature, right? Because that's how they do it. And in fact, I happen to, after, you know, many years of playing with it, enjoy

[5:25] shellfish, if it's going to be cooked. I don't want it overcooked, but I want it cooked at a fairly high temperature. Um, So I would say steaming is good because it's relatively rapid. I don't think you're going to do anything to the meat that hasn't already been done to the

[5:40] meat and you're not going to leach anything in or out because it's relatively fast and you have relatively small contact between the cooking medium and the, um,

[5:50] and the, and the environment. I mean, between the cooking medium and the thing you're cooking. Uh, so, you know, plus like those long skinny things in a pile of steam gets between them really nice. you wouldn't want to go boil them. That would be insane. You'd be an insane person if you did that, to throw all that money into a pot and leach all the flavor out of it. You'd be crazy. That'd be a crazy person's thing to do. You know what I mean? Yeah. What are you gonna do with it? Um, well, I'm gonna bust out kitchen cheers and kind of uh, pre-slice open the shells just to make them less finicky at the table. Right. Um, and then just, you know, steam them and do them with drawn butter. Yeah, okay. What kind of, what kind of equipment do you have available to you? I've got a circulator. Uh, pressure cooker, uh, steam baskets, uh, I don't

[6:40] know. What do you have have special thought? Uh, well, saying like, you know, if you own something like a CVA. See, here's the thing, right? So when you're cooking, when you're cooking shellfish, you want to cook time to be relatively low, right? That's, uh, well, you know, steaming is good. Like long cooking times are not beneficial for shellfish. There's a number of reasons for this. Some of them, I think, are enzymatic. So for instance, we used to do this demo where we would cook shrimp at a very, very low temperature for a long

[7:07] time and it would turn to mush, right? Like paste, disgusting. Now, some of that's probably enzymatic, but some of it, um, might also be that the stuff just gets mushy as it's cooked down because of the

[7:20] way, um, the connective tissue is breaking down over time, just getting mushy, right? So, like, it could be that you what you want. I mean, that could be. my feeling that what you want is relatively fast, um, cooking times on it. That said, I think I've heard other people say that once it's cooked to a high temperature, that they can do a hot hold on it for

[7:42] a relatively long period of time at relatively low temperatures without having degradation. So like what I would test, like what you could do if you had like a long, long, long time, right, is throw them in

[7:53] a bag, no extra water, you know what I mean? And then, um, just throw them into a circulator bath, uh, at, you know,

[8:01] at, like, at, like, you know, 60, which is 140 or somewhere around there and just give it enough time to heat. I have no idea how long it would take to heat up because you have the air gap, you got to heat up, and then you got to heat, um,

[8:14] that's heating through the shell is not a big problem, but then you got to heat the meat. But what I don't know is if hot holding the meat

[8:21] would, um, if it would degrade it, right, over the amount of time it would take for you to heat it up versus steaming

[8:28] it. You're going to steam it for what, like 5 minutes. You know what I mean? Something like this? Who knows? Yeah. So, like, I think that Steven's probably going to do less damage. If you had access to, let's say, a combi oven, right? Then I would throw it in, and I would do 100% humidity at some kind of middle range temperature to see

[8:46] kind of what's going on, and I would keep it probably under, I would try to keep everything under about 10, 15 minutes, which is what I normally shoot for when I'm cooking, uh, like

[8:56] a, like a lobster, when I'm cooking a lobster, for instance, I want to keep my cook times under about 15 minutes for texture reasons, no matter what temperature I'm cooking

[9:03] to. But again, I don't know whether that is only important during primary cook time or whether it's important during primary or secondary. Another thing is like, when you listen to people talking about hot holding shellfish, most of the time people are hot holding shellfish, they're not hot holding, at

[9:20] least, I shouldn't say this, when people have asked me about it, they're not hot holding whole pieces of shellfish for people, like

[9:27] tails or legs for a king crab. And so I think your ability to hot hold something in a sauce is a lot different because your

[9:36] textural expectations are very different for something that's in a sauce versus something that

[9:41] is like a whole muscle or a leg or something like that. makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. I have had some luck for the past where I took the meat out, put it in a bag with some

[9:51] butter and just let it come up to temperature in like 10 minutes. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. But you want to serve it in the shell, right? fussy with a whole bunch of legs to go through all that work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, on the other hand, is this like the 1st course in a Valentine's Day meal? Uh, no, we're just going to be surf and turf. Um, with uh, some sous vide tenderloin, not my favorite uh, cut, but it's my wife's favorite. all that. you know, it's all about, it's all about who you're cooking for, not, you know, not yourself. Uh, but the, um, Here's what, here's another thing I would say. Like, part of the problem with king crab legs, right, or anything like this is that, uh, a lot of the, um, a lot of the kind of presentation style, awesome, is the big old leg, and some people really enjoy rip it me, for instance, uh, really

[10:45] enjoy uh, ripping the meat out of the shell, right? So like, oh, you know, like if someone were to take the meat out of a lobster for anything other than a lobster roll, I would be kind of pissed because I enjoy shredding those things up into tiny pieces and having shell bits stick on my,

[11:01] uh, you know, the person next to me's face. Stas, you've eaten lobster with me before, haven't you? No. But you wouldn't want to. You'd not want to, like little... I once hit her with a piece of inside of a what was it? What kind was that? Like, it was like a grouse or a woodcock. And you got hit in the face with a piece of like stinky, like, aged inside. And you were like, hm, yeah, not terrible. Do you like eating out of the shell or not out of the shell stuff? Anyway, so my point being that, um, I don't know about your wife, but some people would love if someone took the meat out of the shell for

[11:35] them. But here's the other problem. You're spending all the money on the king crab leg, if it's out of the shell, it's like, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, gone. You know what I mean? It's gone. All that money gone down the throat, especially if I'm eating it. I don't know. Maybe your wife savors things and it doesn't matter. But, you know, for me, like it's always a play between this and that. But if it's, if it is part of a larger course, you also have to think about the time it takes someone to extract the meat, they could be doing other

[12:00] things, like eating their steak. So, you know, you know what I'm saying? It's like, so I remember once we, uh, I served a 1st course of crabs, like, I

[12:10] think I forget, it was Dungeoness or something like this. And everyone spent their entire time breaking open the, the, all the crab parts. And then, you know, nobody wanted to eat by the time uh, they got to their main course. I mean, that's how you have like a whole meal of crabs is because it takes so freaking long to get the meat out of the crab that you get full just with

[12:30] time. You just get, you know, you just get sick of it. time to go to bed before you get full. I mean, have you ever been full of crab meat? Um, Yeah, once upon a time, it did take quite a while. Yeah, I have a follow-up question that refers to that, but go on. All right. I'm saying, like, if you go to like a Maryland style crab house, especially nowadays, when the crabs are so tiny and all you can eat crabs, it's not all you can eat crabs, it's when do you go to

[12:54] bed? When are they shutting the kitchen down? I mean, like, you know what I mean? Like, you can't possibly, do you like eating crabs and stuff? Really? Well, this is my question. Where in New York, can you get all you can eat crabs? Because I'm at a loss, I can't find it. Um, there used to be a place. wasn't all you could. Hey, look, all you can eat also depends on how much, you know, your credit card can withstand because you can just hand them your credit card and be like, keep bringing it until I'm done. No, no, not like that. I mean, like you pay a flat whatever of 30, 40 bucks and you get all the crabs that you get. There used to be a place. I don't go out anymore that, but there used to be a place over in, um, in like Brooklyn on the water somewhere that did it, but I'm talking

[13:31] like... I don't know, it was like 15 years ago. Yeah, I don't know what, and it's out of it, did it get swamped by the hurricane years ago? No, it's there still, but they don't do an all you can eat. Yeah, no, that wasn't a place I was thinking of, but anyway, I don't know. I don't know. If anyone finds one in New York, let's all... We'll go eat it. We eat it all. What's your follow-up question, Dave? That was it. Oh, yeah, I don't know. So, uh, so one thing you could do is just do what you did before, but then you don't have the presentation of

[13:57] the uh, of the shell. And if you want to get really freaking fussy about it, you cut the legs all the way

[14:03] in half down, reserve the shell, heat the meat, and replace it pre-buttered onto the freaking leg. Valentine's Day for you, baby. That's baller. That's baller, paint in the butt, though. What else you got? That's it? All right. Well, have a have a happy Valentine's Day. Thanks, same to you. All right. All right. So we had a question in from Matt. And the 1st thing, my phone has decided to go into tiny type. That's being a good band name, tiny type. There's another caller if you want to do that. All right, call, take call, you're on the air. Hey, it's Matt calling from Mystic. I'm not the map that wrote in. All right. How goes it? How's Mystic? How much snow you got? The profit whip and the gourmet whip and the EC canister. Okay. Is there any substantial difference between the canisters and the heads look like the half a court one will fit on the one court one as well, right? Yeah, okay. I don't remember which, I don't remember which line is which, but EC has at least 3 different models of unit.

[15:16] And I'm not talking like the ones that are thermally insulated versus not. I talking about, like, lines, like proffy versus the other one. They had an even lower grade one years ago that had plastic heads on it that were for a consumer only. Um, They all are completely interchangeable. So you can stick the head of any unit that EC has ever made

[15:37] for a whipper. You know, obviously the, um, the, uh, the seltzer siphons are not

[15:44] interchangeable. with the whippers, but any model they've made, and I've tested models up to about 25 years

[15:55] old, are completely 100% interchangeable. There are differences between the heads. Some of which, especially on the newer ones, and I forget when they introduce this, but it's probably something in the area of, you know, 15 years ago or something. They have extra safety features in the newer heads. If you look at the threads in the head of one of the any recent one that you're likely to get, you'll notice that they're what's called interrupted threads. They have a line milled out of them, and that's an escape vent such that if you need to open it under pressure, which is actually very difficult to

[16:35] do. Uh, you, you know, it'll vent down that line uh, before the top disengages. So you're never going to get the top blowing off of the bottom as you unscrew it. The, uh, they've changed the nature, the different series have different gaskets on the inside,

[16:51] uh, which by the way, the gaskets are also, to the best of my knowledge, 100% interchangeable. So you can take the gasket from one and put it into another. The actual, I think also the screw attachments, I think, are 100% interchangeable, the exception being the old plastic home

[17:09] ones, don't have a screw in, whipper tip. They have a push in whipper tip, so that's not interchangeable, but, um, all the other aspects of it, I think, are interchangeable. The actual valve parts on the bottom are not. I think those are all different from unit to unit. Um, but everything else pretty much is the threads on the CO2 uh, things are completely interchangeable. Um, I've never had one that's not. Um, is that true? I think that's true. I think that's true. Yeah, I think they're 100% interchangeable. You know, like, because it would be hard for them to make it not, you know what I mean? Right. Yeah, cool. I have the I have the half liter one and I've been like looking at the gallering eBay to find

[17:54] uh one liter one and I just wanted to make sure that uh like from a safety standpoint or anything like that. there wouldn't be a problem. No, those Austrians, man. They're like, they, they're so hyped on safety, which is, which is why, like, um, they provided for me when I was writing, uh, liquid intelligence, they provided for me, uh, a series of, um, pressures in, at, in different liquids, at

[18:17] different, in different bottles, at, you know, with different numbers of chargers. And they literally would not provide me for data that they knew because I spoke to their engineers. They dated, they knew it was safe on their unit, but they wouldn't put it in in case you used a unit that was manufactured by somebody else that didn't have the safety features that theirs did, that might blow up. So that, you know, you literally cannot put into

[18:44] an easy, uh, enough of a pressure that it will, um, that it will

[18:51] explode because it will back vent before, this is what they tell me. It'll back vent through the, um, through the CO2 entry point or through the

[19:00] N2O entry point, rather, before it explodes. The 2nd mode of failure in an AC bottle is that the bottom that's dimpled in,

[19:10] right? That, you know, looks like a champagne bottle on the bottom, that dimple will invert to release the pressure. That's the secondary, like if all hell breaks loose and you created a special lid that screwed it and sealed it tight,

[19:23] right? Then the bottom would invert before it explodes. And then they take every once in a while, I forget how many, like, 1000 they make. They take and they screw it into a unit and literally explode it. Um, they do it 2 ways. They do it hydrostatically, which is not very violent, right? Because whenever, you know, hydro, see, when you're, when you're, when you fill something with water and then you pump water in it to increase the pressure to explode it, do a hydrostatic test, which is how they test gas

[19:50] tanks. Literally, as soon as the thing ruptures, because liquid's incompressible, the pressure goes to

[19:57] 0 because the, you know, the difference in volume between water under a 1000

[20:02] PSI and water under 0 PSI is almost nothing. The volume difference is almost nothing. So, um, so yeah, so they do hydrostatic, but they also blow them up with air pressure and make sure that, I mean, it probably

[20:16] sucks. You know what I mean? From a noise standpoint, but I've seen their rupture tests and they don't, they're not like pieces of shrapnel everywhere. They have a very nice failure mode, like opens up along the side and just, you know, doesn't doesn't shatter, just opens up. So I would say you are 100% safe. Plus they're completely interchangeable. Alright, cool. How much snow you got up there? I didn't get to go to Connecticut recently. was the snow nice? Uh, it was okay. It sort of turned crappy because it rained on Sunday or whatever, so it was like started out as probably about a foot and then the rain came and sort of ruined it on the shoreline.

[20:52] Man, yeah. You know, in New York, we had some snow. Is there anything Nastasi more disgusting than old snow in New York City? So gross. Here's another thing. People take their dogs out to go to the bathroom in the snow. And then for some reason, they're like, hey, it's snow. I don't need to pick up the poop. No, especially you need to pick up the poop if there's snow because then when the snow melts in New York City people, for those of you that don't live in a city, when the snow melts in the city, the dog poop comes out to play, like all the dog poop, the people didn't pick

[21:18] up, just like starts like, like, it's like a glacier leaving,

[21:22] all, instead of like little rocks strewn all over the glacial till, you get like dog poops everywhere.

[21:26] It's the worst. Speaking of which I feel really bad. Major, my Labrador. Today, peed on a fruit vendor's box as they were unstacking it in the morning. What did you do? I didn't notice it until it was too. don't know. It's just horrible. horrifying. Horrifying. Did you go ostrich? I might have gone a little ostrich. I might gone a lot. You know, when living in a society... I mean, like, the thing is, I mean, what am I gonna do about it? Pay him for the whole box of fruit? Okay, I'll tell you a story. I was once with a guy. I was once with a guy, right? thought this was a family show. I was once with a guy and he was drunk out of his mind and we were in a taxicab and he threw up in the taxicab. You ever been in this situation of Stasia? Where someone's thrown up in a taxicab? So the taxi driver starts yelling at me. I didn't throw up, so I don't know why he's yelling at me, but he's yelling at me and I'm like, listen, I'll give you here. We'll get out. I'll help you clean and whatever I'll pee. like, and like, I was gonna, I paid him, like, a lot of extra money. He's like, I can't take in another, you know, person because I have to go get this professionally clean, blah, blah, blah. I out all this money. So I gave him all this money and I cleaned up all the puke out of the back of this thing. And he's complaining about how he's not gonna be able to pick anyone up. And literally, I'm like trying to get my friend like standing again. I look over, as soon as he pulls away, he throws on his freaking dome and pick someone else up within my

[22:48] vision, within my freaking vision. So I'm not about to pay anyone for, he's like, I can't sell it. Of course he's going to sell the freaking fruit. He's gonna sell the freaking fruit. Let me tell you this also, from a from a disgust level. It was just the box. It wasn't on the fruit. It was the box. But now it gets a little bit, like a little bit. In truth, a little bit of pee on the box is much less disgusting than what you see every day, which they actually spill their product on the ground, right?

[23:18] Because P theoretically sterile. Okay. Whatever. It still, it's horrifying. It's horrifying. Dave, did you say we had another call or not? We do have another call. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Kristen Greenzone again. How you doing? Hey, doing all right. What going on? Hey, did you ever figure out that mint thing, by the way? Did you ever figure out that mint thing? Did you ever get the mint green, green, green? Wasn't that you? No, man, it's impossible. So I have this person that I'm dealing with who has, uh, it's not freeze dried, but it's like similar to freeze dried. I'm wondering whether if you use like this, which I can't talk about her process, but if you

[23:55] have like something like that or maybe freeze dried mint pulverized, so the enzymes have been wiped out by dehydration, whether you

[24:02] could get a really serious mid-flavor that way. don't know. You ever tried freeze dried? No, I haven't, but I'll think about it. Anyway, so what's your question? Yeah, so, um, I have a bunch of your BDX cocktail cubes, I think they work, you know, quite well. Um, one of my favorite bars in DC has an entirely hand cut ice

[24:21] program, so they only shake with one giant hand cut block of ice. And they get foam on their cocktails, like, imagine just like a regular sour, like a daiquiri or something. It's such a foam as if you'd think they've been using egg white. Um, just from the way they shake and ice they're using. And like no matter what I do, using Europe cubes using big ice cubes myself, I can't get that.

[24:44] What size ice cube do these? You knew what precisely they might be doing. I don't. What size ice cube were they using? Uh, about 22 inch cubes. Right. So I made... I made the cocktail cube slightly smaller, then I would have making making. That would have made it, uh, if I could guarantee what shaker you were using. So like the cocktail cube is made such that it will also shake effectively inside of a 16 ounce pint glass.

[25:18] Um, whereas if I knew you were going to use just like, you know, uh,

[25:25] standard, um, tin shakers set, then I would have made it bigger. So that's probably some of it. Also, like those ice cubes, the one advantage that ice does have over the one that's

[25:37] pre-made, is that it will kind of beat itself into the shape of your shaker as it's

[25:43] shaking. You know what I mean? And so it'll it'll kind of optimize itself to the shaker as it's being used. So there might be some kind of advantage there. Also, and all their bartenders get good texture or is it one or 2 bartenders? Um, I've only noticed it from one. I mean, he's the owner operator, and he's my friends when I go there, I try to like sit in front of him. How tall is he? How tall, not tall at all? Huh. Because we had a bartender at Booker and Dax, Michael Smoli, who has like super long arms, and I swear to God, that guy's shaking drinks,

[26:18] texture are like, I mean, better than I could do. That's for sure. You know what I mean? Like when we were using the same ice, same everything. And, you know, I'm a big fan of saying that, like, there's, you know, that, you know,

[26:30] that not to worry and that we can all get good results, which is basically true, but man, his freaking

[26:36] shaken drinks, just because his, is your friend, maybe he's not too tall. Does he have monkey arms? No, not really. I mean, like, Smoli's, like, shake is like somehow, I, you know what? You have never investigated. I've investigated speed of shake, but I've never investigated throw length. Does he have an extraordinarily long throw length on his shape? It's interesting because he does sort of, I mean, he shakes fast, but it's also kind of like

[27:00] weird like circular back and forth thing, I guess. Yeah, I've never been able to discern and, you know, we've run the test where I have like, you know, a bunch of different bartenders using different shaking techniques and speed and all of

[27:14] that. And I've never obviously found a difference in temperature of the drink and therefore in dilution. But, uh, and I wasn't able to notice much textural difference in the 1st round.

[27:25] Um, that we did based on texture other than the ice floating on the surface. And this was years ago, though. And we were we were using mainly bartenders who were all within a relatively narrow range of

[27:40] styles. This is on your blog, right? Yeah, yeah, years and years and years ago. And we were all using the same ice, cold draft. It would be interesting to rerun with big ice and see whether or not shaking style can influence the texture of the drink when using big ice.

[27:58] And you know what? It might be possible because, you know, it might be possible. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I'm wondering is that when I shake with big ice, I'm using regular, you know, ice mold ice, which is not perfectly clear and has, you know, air bubbles and imperfections and stuff in it, whereas they're, you know, carving their cubes out of

[28:16] giant clear blocks. And I'm wondering if the ice itself makes a difference. you know, the character of the ice regardless of the shape. Yeah, I highly doubt it. And my, my, the, the thing about the, um, like frozen shake guys is, I, you know, it is true that sometimes,

[28:37] especially like, let's say you have hard water and or a lot of, uh, gas and the ice is super cloudy, right? So it's not just a situation where you have a modestly clear cube with that

[28:49] like white ball of garbage in the middle of it. Okay? Those cubes tend to rupture when you're shaking with them. And if your cube ruptures when you're shaking, then you're not getting the texturizing effect of it

[29:03] anyway, right? Because it's basically a physical effect, in my opinion. Maybe that's maybe that is an advantage to the perfectly clear eyes. Yeah, the perfectly clear ice won't won't shatter, but I have to say, our shake ice doesn't shatter either. Now we are, New York City water is pretty, um, you know, is

[29:22] pretty relatively, you know, soft and inclusion free. Uh, and if we, you know, in, in our dump sink, if I was noticing a bunch of shattered shake cubes, I would be, I would change what we did because

[29:36] they, one, as soon as it shatters into, into pieces, it's no longer serving its function as a

[29:42] texturizer. But, um, I am now interested in whether I don't have the, you

[29:49] know what? Like when we get the new bar up and running. I'll run some tests or maybe you can run some tests and come back to me. Different shake styles when using big ice because it's a test I've never run blind. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, one of the things that my friend has said is that I sort of kills the foam. So he says he just shakes with one cube, and he shakes it in a way to not break up the cube, and then like strains it as soon as possible. He doesn't let the shakers sit around before straining it. Well that's definitely true. I mean, but the same is true of like, you shouldn't let it sit around in the glass before you drink it. Well, of course. But I mean, so, you know, I was doing these tests myself. I made myself a bunch of daiquiris last night. And as soon as I cracked the tin, there was like a huge amount of foam in the tin, and then I poured it out through, uh, cocktail kingdom corico strainer, so no fine straining, into the glass, I'm

[30:40] like almost immediately the foam dissipated. Right. And I'm wondering, why would that happen? Well, there's not much in a daiquiri to hold foam. You know what I mean? Like, there's just not much there. Uh, you know, so, you know, and people have tried using different syrups with stuff in it to

[30:56] hold, um, to hold the phone better, like gum syrups and things like this. Does gum syrup help for that? I've never had good luck with it, to be honest. Yeah, I know, I know your opinion's on... Yeah, I mean, like, but, you know, the, that's not to say that other people, you know, with anything in life, right? You only test what you test and if you don't find a lot of, um, you know, if that tree of inquiry is not bearing fruit, you tend to just drop it.

[31:25] And there could be, you know, it could be that if you just stuck with it or change your parameters a little bit, you get some kind of golden recipe. So, you know, like, I'm totally, um, with anything in cooking or, you know, basically anything in

[31:39] life, if someone comes and shows you something that's awesome, then it's awesome and you got to change your position. You know what I mean? I have not yet been shown that. I also don't believe, I believe that, um, I don't believe that I don't understand the ice being a kind of a foam killer situation. Well, I think he meant, like, if it breaks up into little pieces, it just, um, it, you know, it'll, it'll melt and kind of kill the

[32:02] phone, I don't quite understand. I don't really care. I tend to not believe anything. anyone says. I believe the results people get. And then the trick is analyzing how they got the results and what the actual reason is, right? So what you know is that your buddy gets superior results,

[32:19] right? So now we also know that your buddy uses a large hand cut ice. So then the question is, okay, if you were to load 2 shakers with different ice loads, like one regular shake ice and one ice, the same size as the shake

[32:35] ice and have him shake both, do they come out? And then if that's the case, then it's something having to do either with his shaking or his pouring procedure or one of those

[32:46] two. You know what I mean? Sure, sure. I'd be interested to hear, like, whatever you, whatever you find out, because when we reopen, whenever you reopen a new place, uh, I think it makes

[32:57] sense, and even if you have the time, if it's hard when you're actually running in service, uh, it makes sense to, um, kind of

[33:04] reevaluate fresh all, all of your precepts. You know what I mean? And then, um, that's how you, you know, as I say, that's how you learn by just constantly reevaluating yourself. It's just who has the time, when you're actually in service, you just never have the time to reevaluate

[33:19] everything, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, and I personally don't have access to clear handcut ice. So. Well, you could buy, you know, you can buy it from ice carving places, and then you have the added fun of being able to break down a block. So, you know, for some reason, the guys at Sambar,

[33:37] like they were all like hemming and hawing about it, but I wanted to get one of those £200 ice blocks in, not for service, just, you know, as a fun thing for the bartenders to do to kind of break it down, but, you know, we

[33:48] never we never did it. You know, but then, I don't know, like, remember that, Stas? I was like, you know, I'll get a chainsaw. We'll do the whole the whole thing, you know? Uh, and then it just never it never happened. But I'm sure if you're friends with this person, They'll lend you some cubes. You take it home, you throw them in the freezer, let them temper out before you use them. Do they they cut to order? Are they that? How long does it take them to make a drink? I mean, they cut them sort of at the beginning of shift and they be halfway through the shift, like the reload. Yeah, okay. So yeah, I'm sure that like, or you could just go there like, you know, if you're friends with them, go there like before service sometime and like run a, you know, run a test with them, you know, something like

[34:24] that. I'd be interested to hear what happens. Yeah, in the meantime, I'm going to send you a picture of what one of their steak and drinks looks like, you know what I'm talking about. All right, cool. Yeah. Then we'll get, but you know what? We'll have a battle of the east coast. Now, bring Michael Smoley in and have Michael go to town on you guys. We'll see if it gets the best shaking drinks. Sounds good. All right. Cool, babe. Alright, you want to take a break and come back, Dave? Sure. Right back with cooking issues.

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[37:33] I think they just called you a culinary tools, does. Nice. Sick burn. Dad, no, Dax does that all. Dax does all that all the time. Anytime anyone says any relatively like word that can be taken in a pejorative way, Dax is like, dad, they just called you that. Like, whatever it is. I think you learned it from. You learned it from watching May? Yeah, yeah. Wait, so what else were we going? We were talking about... not charging credit cards. Oh, yeah, yeah. So we had an issue. So the, we're using a kind of a, uh, kind of a fake crowdfunding thing for the spins all called a thrinacea. What does that even mean? We looked it up once, right? Thnacia. That girl's drinking coffee with MCT oil,

[38:13] cashew, and cacao and it says it's paleo. What's MCT? don't know. But is coffee paleo? Uh, well, it depends. I mean, like Paleo, the definition of Paleo, right? make it as a caveman. Right, but like what's in there? coffee. Okay, so we're talking now like Ethiopian highlands. What else? MC. Maybe Yemen. I don't know what that is. Cashew and cacao. So cashews don't come from there. So unless you were like, I don't know. Yeah, so like, that's the thing. No, Paleo is like anything. Basically, it means not grains. Nothing that has been... So they would have been able to make coffee back then. You can go, I think there are wild coffee species that you could kind of do that

[38:59] to. I doubt that they're using that. You know what I mean? Like, so the Ethiopian would have to go where to get the cashews and then back. Cashews, uh, where are cashews from? I think that they're they're Asian, aren't they? Aren't they like, or like, uh, also like... Also, like that Paleo person, like, you know, let's hope, you know, getting the cashew out of the cashew apple can be very irritating to your skin.

[39:24] You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't seem very likely. You know what I mean? doesn't seem doesn't seem likely. cashews originated in Brazil. Okay. What? Really? That's what the Internet says. Why do they grow all the cashew apples in Asia then? Anyway, so... Brazil. So yeah, so not possible. This is not possible. Not real. So the paleo guy. Or woman in like the highlands of, I forget whether it's Yemen or Ethiopia around there, right? that area of the world, right? Finds like some high altitude coffee bush, right? Takes the coffee beans, cherries off. And then you know the story of Kaldi's goats, right? The story is, is that these coffee cherries fell into the fire and got

[40:09] boint, and then the goats ate it, and then the goats went crazy because of all the caffeine, and

[40:15] Caldy realized that the goats were eating these things, and that's what got the goats all hyped up.

[40:21] And that's how Caldy figured out that coffee was the Stiznuff, right? So what we're saying here is that somehow this person got hit on the head, right? Somehow, they floated all the way down, right out. Somehow, like, I don't know how they made it out into the open ocean, right? And then around, and then they made it all the way to South

[40:45] America. And luckily, their paleo pocket still had coffee in them. that they then roasted. And they're like, hey, there's fruit that's incredibly like irritating in my skin.

[40:58] If I ripped the seed out of it. I can turn that into an edible cacao. Yeah. Well, that's from that same neighborhood. Oh, good, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's in luck. Yeah, yeah, he's in luck. Not Paleo. I don't understand what that means. It's stupid. I don't know. Hey, look, Nastasia, you don't want to insult a Paleo. She has a very good looking colored drink, though. don't know what the hell that is. It's not the coffee. It's not the garbage thing. Anyway, but my point is, is that people love the Paleo stuff. I don't understand it. I understand it. So we're not charging credit cards. So back to the spins all. So, uh, So they, they, they kind of weak crowdfunding thing that we use, Trinacea, like, as soon as you stop the campaign, it's like, okay, we're charging everybody now, even though we had told everyone that we weren't charging them, so that's why it gave everyone a pre-authorization, but we're not charging you until we give the next update, and it's going to be hopefully soon, we're working with,

[41:48] uh, we're working with the factory now to get, uh, some updates, right?

[41:52] Okay. Back to some questions. Um, okay. Now this is Matt, not from Mystic. I found your show a few weeks ago, and I'm churning through the back catalog. Ned, my five-year-old son is fascinated with the concept of anyone anywhere being referred to as

[42:11] The Hammer, and asked multiple times a day how he could become a hammer. Any insight you could provide would be to his delight, I'm sure. All right, style, so give them some insight. I don't know. gave me that name. Well, it's like, again, I've told people this many times, but like the Nastasia that you get here on the cooking issues radio podcast. You won't let me be the Anastasia I am in real life. Well, no. Why can't she live, Dave? Why can't she live? What do you mean? So you don't like it when I, I'm like, all right, one question to the callers. You're like, let them do what they want to do. Well, I mean, so it's, well,

[42:50] it's like, you ask and then you are like, no, don't do that. Well, I guess it's kind of like, but like to really know what she's like. You have to see how she treats me off air. Or anyone, really. Like, for instance, like, it could be that she's just like, like, Nastasia is someone, and I kind of appreciate this about you. Like, you like to kick people when they're down. You know what I mean? If you think only friends. Only friends. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like if you're just the ones who can take it. Like, yeah, you know, well, they dish it to everyone dishes, it takes it. don't do it to anyone who doesn't dish it. Yeah, except for the fact that it's also true that you have 0 respect for people that can't take it. So do you. That's where that's that's the one thing. That's the one thing that we really agree on. The one diagram. Yeah, you don't even... Yeah, like, if you, Yeah, if you can't, it's like, like, it's Nastasia is beyond if you don't dish it if you can't take it. She's like, if you can't take it, get out of my face. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know. Yeah, life's too short and dishing it out is so enjoyable that if you can't take it, you're just

[44:03] weak. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, I would never want to, like, I would never want to live in, like, an eggshell world where you had to, like, you know, but Nastasia, like, the

[44:15] thing Nastasia is, like, unlike, you know, me. Nastasia in, like, enjoys it to the point where you're getting visibly agitated, not because you can't take it, but because she's literally

[44:28] feeling time that you could be using to solve a problem with endless queries about how your problem's not going

[44:35] well. For instance, the worst place for Nastasia to be is in the cockpit of an airplane with a problem. You know what I mean? Because she'll be like, she'll be like, you're losing altitude. You're losing altitude. The altitude's going down, and you're like, I know. I know. You know what I mean? When really, instead of saying, I know. You'd be spending. No, you wouldn't. be too interested in messing with the pilots to like, to like worry about actually dying. You know what I mean? The stall warning's going off. Couldn't we say the same for you though, Dave? I mean, like, for example, when you were grilling her about why she doesn't care about coffee. Oh, open that up. That was a big, that was a special one for us. No, but like that, I mean, like, that's like, the reason is, is because also what I know about Nastasia is that she's just saying it to be ornery.

[45:28] Oh, that's not true. It's like, it's like people who say that they like, it's like people who say they like egg white omelets. Does anybody on earth like an egg white omelet? No, they are freaking gross. They are freaking gross. It's just a crappy meringue. An egg white, an egg white omelet is a poorly made meringue without sugar. It's just like, it's gross. You know what I mean? It's just nasty. Nobody likes it. They think they like it. It's like my sister with her freaking one% milk. Does anybody like that garbage? No, it's disgusting. And what I hate is people who convince themselves that they like this garbage and

[46:03] it's really for like wrong health reasons. I'm okay, like, let's say, let's say you literally can't have something anymore because you're allergic to it or

[46:12] it'll kill you, right? Like, I can't have cherries right now until we figure out this allergy thing. Someday they'll figure it out. Right? So, like, if I said, I don't like cherries, because I can't have them allergic to, or then I would be like, okay, the guy is just trying to deal with a problem he has,

[46:27] right? The guy is just trying to take his sour grapes and turn him into sweet lemons. You know what I'm saying? I would excuse that kind of behavior because there's no way around it. So you might as well pretend that the way your life is, is the way you want it. You know what I'm saying? a lot of fruit in that analogy. Yes, as usual. But like the foot, but in situations, like with the one% milk, where what you're doing isn't helping you at all or making a real difference, I just can't tolerate people saying that they actually

[46:56] like it. You know what I mean? I be like, just say that you're following it for some crazy health reason. Or some sort of like belief you have, some mystical belief that, you know,

[47:05] that that milk is going to change your life. Or anything. You know what I'm saying, Stas? You're the same way. On the other hand, on the take the other side of it, just give people what they freaking want. You know what? You know what's not fun? Like being harangued by someone about your eating beliefs while you're doing it. So like, I'll give you another example. You know how like when you cook something for somebody. Okay, we've had this discussion before. What is your least favorite thing when you cook for someone that they do to you when to the food that you've made them? Uh, season it before they eat it? Oh really? My favorite is disassemble and disassemble it. Oh, like a hamburger and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, they take it apart or like a sandwich and they take apart the parts of the sandwich, but like, just I assembled it in the order I wanted to. But the thing is, like, they're going to enjoy it the way they want to enjoy it. Let's take my son Booker, who, as I said, you know, has some issues with like food. But like, he has his, like, things so dry that they're, I know they are completely unpalatable. And if you could just have him try the stuff the way you want it, you know it would be better. But you can't force people to do that. Give them eggs and chicken for dinner one night. Because that's what he wants. He eats only protein. Why am I eating eggs and chicken? You said shut up. No, I said it to you. I said it to you. Look, you don't know what it's like to cook for someone who's extremely picky. But, like, the, uh, my point being that, like,

[48:25] is it, it's a hard, as a cook, it's very hard to ride the line between what you want people to like and what they actually like.

[48:33] But you should usually just give people what they want. If they want an egg white omelet, just give them the freaking egg white omelet. You know what I mean? And then, like, go in the back room and just punch something. You know what I mean? get a get a punching bag, drink an extra couple glasses of wine. Like that's a solution. You know what I mean? Um, There is a solution. I'll give you an example, I'll give you an example. I am not going to say who it is, but there's someone I've known a long time and they're well known in the food world. At a certain point in college, worked at a FroYo joint, right? And all the sorority, uh, um, people would come

[49:08] in and they would order the fat-free granola to be a topping on their fat-free fro yo, right? Now, if you would serve them full fat granola, they would not have liked it because it's full fat. Let me give you another hint here. There's no such thing as no fat granola. So what this person used to do was heap the regular granola, which is

[49:31] basically a method to take oats and have them carry fat for you,

[49:36] right? And like, we put the full fat granola on top and they freaking loved it. But if you told them that they were eating fat, and she was, say this, if you told them that they had full fat granola, they'd be like, can we, I don't like it. It's too greasy. Can you get me the granola you used to have? And she's like, it's the same granola. But it's not cool. It's not cool to serve somebody something and lie about it. You ever do that? Uh, yeah. Really? They're like, is there any butter in this? I'm trying to be on a diet. And I'm like, no. See, I can't lie to people. The only, I used to lie. The 2 times I've lied that I can remember about food, 2 times I've

[50:12] lied. One, I'm sitting there grinding pepper onto a steak, right? Grinding, just grinding a lot of pepper on a steak. And Booker comes up and he was going through an anti-pepper cake. He's like, are you putting pepper on that steak? I said, no. Because he can literally see me grinding pepper onto it. I was like, no, I'm not. And then that was it. He was like, oh, and he walked away. And the other was the time that Dax was like, I don't want French toast. I hate French toast. I was like, try my Lithuanian toast. He was very young and he loved it. And like a couple years later, he was like, he was like, uh, that was the same as French toast, wasn't it, dad? I'm like, yes, yes, it was. You know what I mean? So anyway, Lithuanian toast. Where did we get to? Oh, so how do you become the hammer? Just, uh, I don't know, just, you know, just

[51:01] be be more Nastasio-like, I guess, right? Okay. Now, for the food question. Years ago, my grandmother taught me to home canned tuna, uh, which

[51:11] is, uh, raw tuna, a quarter teaspoon salt packed in half pint jars, £11 of pressure for an hour and 40 minutes.

[51:18] That's 100 minutes, right? Yeah, that's standard. Uh, and I learned that cannedfish need not be vile dried, flavorless, uh, dried out flavorless Drek. Every other year or so, we'll haul ourselves out to the Oregon coast and pick up a couple whole line caught tuna and process them. The quality is so much better than supermarket tuna. It's like a completely different product altogether. I've had the fortune to taste some of the higher end Spanish and Russian tin stuff. I've never had the Russian stuff. You ever have Russian? Russian tin stuff that's, I've had, anyway, it's pretty damn fantastic. I'd like to gear my approach to eventually aging some of these out, as I've heard this is relatively common for Spanish producers to do, though I may be misinformed on

[51:58] this. I'm only able to really find basic tame recipes for canning from my local extension office. Shout out to OSU. While these are great, they tend to err on the side of caution instead of the side of quality. I'm wondering if you have any knowledge or experience getting freaky with home canned fish. My 1st targets would probably be trout, mussels, and clams. Razors, long necks, and cockles are easiest to get for us. The whole family retains appropriate licenses to get them, so these little buddies are easy and basically free to get. Thanks for any insight and guidance, Matt. Uh, I haven't actually done my own, um, uh, canning. I happen to really like canned fish of all types, including, I like canned octopus, I like canned mussels. I like canned oysters, I like canned tuna, I like canned sardines, all I

[52:44] can, uh, mackerel. You like all that stuff, right, stuff? Yeah I love that stuff. But, uh, I have had the age stuff. Harold McGee brought us once aged stardines. I think he had also some aged spam, and he might have had some aged tuna. Remember that? Somebody got sick. Piper, who used to work for us, claimed he got sick, but who knows? You know, you know, with Piper's life, who knows what made him sick? know what I mean? Spam doesn't have any gluten in it. Right? No, it's just not. A lot of salt. But we had them up to, I think, what was it? was it 5 or 10 years old that McGee brought? It was something pretty old like that. And it was good. I mean, like, actually, the sardines, I think there was so much variants because we had both Spanish and French producers. I think the variants between the different sardines was almost as high as the variants on

[53:36] aging, so it was kind of hard to check out. Also, Lucky Peach did something on aging. But relative to getting freaky with it. Here's the issue. Uh, the canning recipes are based on the amount of time and temperature it takes to get

[53:53] uh, the fish up to a point where spores are killed because tuna is considered, well, not considered is low acid, um, food, right? So what they're trying to do is kill Um, specifically, uh, botulism. Now, the time and temperatures that you're using for canning of those things kill all of the

[54:16] pathogenic explorers, but I think for things like clam, you might even actually need to go higher longer to kill anything that might possibly grow in it, right?

[54:24] Which is why occasionally you'll get cans that'll that'll blow, even though you've, um, even though you've cooked them. I don't know that for a fact, but I read somewhere that, uh,

[54:33] clams, in order to be 100% completely sterile against everything ever, uh, that you're going to do, need to go, um, a little higher in

[54:41] temperature, and, um, but I'm not sure. So no, I've never gone freaky. You might be able, if you really wanted to do, lower temp. What I would do is this first. I would not, I would try to do a lower time temp and see whether it really makes a difference. Don't try to preserve it. Just keep it in the fridge for like a week, right? Because put it this way. Let me just go back, go back for a minute to start fresh. What you want to do is you want to attempt to cook the fish for

[55:11] a, you can't cook it for a lower, at a lower temperature too much because you need to kill the spores, period,

[55:18] right? That's why you're trying to make it shelf stable. What you can do is you can see whether or not cooking it at an intermediate temperature even makes a difference,

[55:26] right? So, like, let's say you did just regular boiling water canning, and you did it for, you know, you know, 110, 110, uh, 100

[55:36] minutes or whatever it is, and then you put it into your fridge, you let it age for, uh, you know, you let

[55:42] it, like, mellow out for like a week, uh, week and a half . It's going to be fine, right? Then you pull it out and you taste it. What does that taste like, compare it to fresh canned properly tuna? Is it better? Is it worse? It might that it might be actually worse. Those higher temperatures, right? Once you've overcooked the tuna, the higher temperatures might actually

[56:02] resoften the meat a little bit and increase the kind of meaty, you know, kind of flavors you get out of it. So you might find that those lower temperature canned fish might actually be not as good. So I would run that test just to kind of see what's going on. Whether you prefer, like, whether you prefer it straight out of the gate. Now, if you if you do, in fact, prefer a lower temperature, let's say, uh, like a boiling water can,

[56:30] um, where it's sealed in a can, it's just under boiling water. then you can start looking into things like adding nitrites to it to

[56:38] kill to kill the botulism such that botulism can't grow. And then you wouldn't be killing other sport forming things necessarily, but you might make it bacteriostatic enough, such that you could age it with a lower temperature, um, lower temperature canning

[56:52] procedure. But I would run some tests 1st to see whether or not it even makes sense. Does that make sense and stuff, yeah? Yes we are out of time. What? It's one o'clock. I had a question on, uh, what was it? It was on aging from Ritz. What was it about here? Oh, all right, well, we'll just get up, okay. I'll get to it real real quick. Moritz wrote in about aging and said, by the way, what's the address people should send their questions into? and Lopez at bookerandox.com. You got that, people? and Lopez Lopez and Lopez at bookerandax.com. Um, Anyway, uh, Maurice writes in, I'd love to hear what you guys think about ultrasonic aging and infusing uh, with regards to um, spirits. And so what they do is, is people have used ultrasound to, uh, basically they flow liquor over

[57:42] woodchips, uh, and then they can alter the temperature and aerate it and they hit it with ultrasound as a way to speed age it. And the question is, what do I think about that? And what I think is this. It might be possible to get a good tasting liquor this

[57:58] way. In other words, you might be able to get a result that you like, but I never think that accelerated aging or accelerated anything is a substitute for

[58:09] the slower, well, very rarely. Like, is this substitute, the same thing. So I think everyone in the world should just stop what they're doing, stop focusing on, is, uh, is rapid infusion, and long-term

[58:26] infusion, is rapid aging, slow aging. Are they the same? They're never going to be the same. It's never, ever, ever going to be the same. The question is, they're different. Are they both useful? Can they both make delicious products and then if they can use the technique that you want to get the result that you

[58:43] want? Next week, I'm going to talk about connected tissue because Todd wrote back about a connective tissue, and Nick Devlin in the UK is working maybe on us with some heat transfer

[58:52] stuff, so we might have more fun, low temperature meat stuff to talk about next week on Happy Valentine's Day on cooking issues.

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