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[0:39] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245

[0:49] at Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Joined as usual, Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. how you doing Stas? I like love the fact that there's people out there who like imagine like why you are the hammer and all they need to do now is look at Lennon's wife's

[1:06] picture and they know. Did you see someone rode in and said that we should just make t-shirts with Lenin's wife's photo? Yeah, we made t-shirts and you people don't buy them. You people. What was her name again? Lenon's wife? No one can remember because if Nasassi can't remember, then how am I supposed to remember? Like, Nastasia is like half Russo, Ukrainian. Like, you know, a potent self-hating mix there. And yeah, potent. And, of course, as usual, we got Dave in the booth. How you doing? Good, how are you? Doing all right. So am I supposed to? I have a piece of paper on our desk. And it says pre-roll ad, but since we've already rolled, perhaps I can

[1:41] post pre-roll. You want to post pre-roll this? Yeah, yeah, that's how we do. While you're listening to the post pre-roll, call in all of your questions, cooking or not. You know, preferably cooking related questions. 2718497. Wait, 718-4972128. that right? Yeah, that's it. 718-497-2128. It's like, I don't even actually think about it. It's almost like, you know, it just kind of like pops out. What, a collar? Yeah, Heritage radio network. Oh, nice. All right. Well I'll do the pre-roller figuring that out. Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes,

[2:17] tips and tricks. blog.modernistpantry.com All right, call her, you're on the air. I think. Do we lose them, Dave? Caller. Caller, you're on the air. Call her. Hey, how you doing? Hey, uh, so I am a cook uh, in uh, New Orleans and I uh, recently did a uh, pop-up with ramen, um, and the issue that I had

[2:42] is, uh, so I, I followed the recipe, uh, basically of uh, Ivan Ramen's book, right? And uh, uh, flowered the noodles with cornstarch. Um, but after doing like a bunch of batches, uh, on the sides of the, like the wire basket, the cornstarch started to build up and like form

[3:03] this like, you know, paste. Yeah, I bet it would. Uh, I was wondering if you had any, like, suggestions on uh, how to avoid that. Well, okay, so give me the exact, give me the exact procedure. You're taking, like, the new, what, like, and you're dusting them. What's the point, again, of dusting them in the cornstarch, just give them a little bit of a, like, gluey outside? Or is it just a separation thing? So I'm handmaking the noodles? and I don't want them to stick because if I don't use any cornstarch and they stick. And so when I go to break them up in the water with chopsticks, they sort of crumble into short little pieces. Yeah, yes. Uh, and so the cornstarch helps to avoid that problem, but then, you know, once I do a bunch of batches that, you know,

[3:46] sticks to the wire uh, basket. How much, uh, kind of how much par dehydration do they go through before they, uh, they, uh, before you boil them? How much what? How much like, how long have they been sitting out like before you boil? In other words, like, are they dried sufficiently where you could sit there and do like a pre-tap on like a, on like a drying rack where you could just put your, like, the load on a drying rack and go,

[4:07] pap, pap, pap, on a sheet tray and like knock off the excess cornstarch? Or do you already do that or what? might be able to do that. Yeah, so I just made them day off so that they'd be fresh. Um, so they basically just sat, you know, in the cornstarch so I dusted them in. Right. So, I mean, the other issue is, is that, like, if you're getting buildup on the basket, like, how are you loading? Are you loading direct into the water? Are you loading into baskets and dropping baskets? Directly into the water? Yeah, okay. So what you're getting is just straight boil off, building up on the sides of the baskets. What about on the external sides of the pot? What are you cooking in? What are you doing? You don't have a pasta maker, right? I mean, like a pasta a pasta boiler? making it in a pasta maker, and then, um, dusting them with cornstarch, and then... No, no, I meant I meant to cooking. You don't have like a pasta, you're not using like a modified pasta deep fryer. You know what I'm talking about? those pasta boilers? Uh, no, it's just a, it's just like uh, it's a, um, spot with salt of water. Yeah, yeah. So like, uh, and how often are you skimming the stuff off the top? Uh, not very often. I mean, I, yeah, I mean, like, like, once you have like free cornstarch in the system, like, the stuff's going to like,

[5:23] like, boil around, because remember, like, it, like, uh, it's going to, it's

[5:28] going to do that. So I would try to knock off the stuff on the outside, right? And I would skim like fairly often. So, like, like, let's say you, like, normally, not normally, but if you're fortunate enough to have an actual, like, pasta cooker, right? It's got like a water in and then like a, like a drain off so that you can take the scum off the top. like basically automatically destarchies the water because your

[5:52] water is always going to get starchier and starchier and starchier. You know what I mean? Like as you go. And so, um, and I've never owned one. I've used my regular deep fryer as a pasta cooker before, but

[6:05] it doesn't have like any of the fancy stuff. I've never owned a real one You ever used this last? you ever seen, like Marqu used to have one of the, does he, does he have those now? Did he have like the fancy like, like, does he have the fat, fancy ones that look like deep fryers for the pasta boiling? Uh, not now. But they're going to? Is that the way they're going to do it or how are they finishing? Of course. Oh, custom fancy? We're talking about pasta flyer, Mark Ladner's new venture. When's that opening size? Two weeks. Two weeks. Uh, so you gonna you gonna invite me to anything? Any opening? All right. We'll talk about it on the air. So, like, I would say, I would skim more often. I would try to knock the cornstarch off. The problem is, is that I, there's very few things I hate worse than trying to

[6:46] get, um, cooked starch off of, uh, off of fry baskets. Yeah, it's a painful process. Oh yeah, that's definitely something that you want to hire somebody else to do if you can. Like, you know what I mean? I'm trying to think if there's anything else. Like any free starch like that is going to, uh, is going to do that. That's why I was asking kind of, um, like what level of dryness they are when they when they get out. Like, I know, like, I do the same thing. If you can keep them, if you can keep the noodles separated for even a couple of minutes before they go

[7:19] into like larger things. Like, I can't picture your layout. You can use less stuff to coat them. You know what I mean? Like the faster they have to touch each other. The, you know, the more of a, of insurance you need on the outside. But then, remember, like, what, when you put the coating on the outside, like, the coating is absorbing some of the moisture from the outside of the pasta, almost acting like an instant dehydration on the, on the surface of

[7:43] the, of the noodle. So like after, you know, even like 30 minutes, you should be able to like wrap a

[7:50] tap, tap, like prior to service to try to knock stuff off of it. And then, you know, because like, you know, I know people like fresh pasta makers, some pasta makers, for instance, use cornstarch on larger, not cornstarch,

[8:01] corn meal on larger things like ravioli. And like when they sell them to you, they're swimming in freaking, you know, cornmeal. And so then, you know, it's a question of always getting it off. But like, how are you storing it? Are you storing them in, like, are you are you pre-portioning them and then storing them in, like, in, like, fish tubs? Like, what are you doing? Right, just, uh, yeah, I had them pre-portioned, uh, just, yeah,

[8:25] an Alexa. Are you getting any clumping problems at all now? Uh, no, not, not as far as like, uh, I guess, you know, maybe it's like too much cornstarch, but there's no clumping issue. Yeah. Well, so like the good news is you have no clumping issues. So what I would do is just keep dialing it back until you start having

[8:42] issues. And the more you dial back the cornstarch and the finish thing, like the less often you're going to have to clean that disgusting stuff off the outside of the baskets.

[8:53] I don't know if there's anything that'll just straight eat that. Like, you know, like, you know, I tend not to keep around the, um, around my place, like tons of super caustic things, but like I

[9:04] know like at the French culinary, like at night, like those guys would just dip everything in like hyper

[9:09] disgusting caustic chemicals to like burn everything off of everything. I'm not saying I recommend that because I don't. And also, like, it's not efficient to, like, self-clean that stuff off of things because you soak up a lot of

[9:20] energy. And, like, I've discovered that aluminum pans are ruined by self-cleaning.

[9:25] Did you know that? Uh, no, I didn't know that. Yeah. You throw an aluminum, like a sheet pan, into a uh, into a self-cleaning oven and it just wipes the temper. It cleans it because, like, I hate cleaning. I hate cleaning everything, but, like, I super hate cleaning. A couple things I hate cleaning are fryer baskets. I hate them and I hate cleaning off. I hate cleaning off like sheet trays that have had like oily crap baked into

[9:50] them like over the course of a whole like, you know, night. hate it. And so, like, I always thought, well, maybe I can just burn that. And, you know, I don't know if your fry baskets have the rubber on them, but if you have the ones that don't have rubber,

[10:00] like theoretically, you can self-clean. I dont know what it'll do to the chrome coating on it, but if it's chrome coated as opposed to, you know how some are actually, like they're supposed to all be stainless steel, but some of them aren't really. Do you ever notice that? Like some of them aren't really. Yeah, they have the ones I have I have the rubber things on the handles. Yeah, yeah. So you can't do any of that stuff anyway, but yeah, I don't know whether like, uh, I don't know whether some sort of hardcore oven cleaner will get that stuff off because that stuff's more effective, I think, on fats and

[10:26] proteins, um, than on starch. I don't know. Anyway. Are there any other like starches that might work any better? They're all going to clump up on you. You know what I mean? Like, I'm a, you know, it depends on what you're gonna, you know, the good thing, good news about cornstarch, she has to say it's freaking cheap. You know what I mean? I mean, if you want to, if you want to stay like wheat on wheat crime, you can use pure

[10:49] weed starch. You know what I mean? And that way, you know, you're, you know, you only have one grain in that. And so, you know, one less allergy to worry about. But, um, you know, it depends. You're not looking for functionality, right? Like you're not, it's not a functional aspect of the noodle. Like you're not looking for it to have like a like a velveted texture on the outside, right? It's just, it's just like, uh, yeah, some people were complaining that, uh, you know, it was kind of

[11:18] gummy, and then I checked the thing, and sure enough, you know, it was kicked on, man. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, like you, like, uh, I mean, just, I would just try to use less of it. I don't think any other particular starch is gonna change the, the, because it's not, you're not looking for a particular quality of the starch. Like, if you want to starch, like, I really like potato starch a lot, but that's in situations where, like, I'm frying or crisping things up and I want the specific,

[11:42] like, swelling capacity of potato starch. You don't care. You know what I mean? just trying to separate stuff off. So, you know, if you can afford the extra costs, try weed starch. That way, it's just one less thing to worry about. But cornstarch is nice and cheap. Okay. Don't you hate the way cornstarch feels? Yeah, right, Nastasia hates. I hate the way cornstarch feels that squeaky feel. It doesn't bother you? It bothers me. The noise that cornstarch makes when you're, when you're taking it out, when you lift it out of the thing and you squeeze the box and you squeeze that cornstarch box, that freaking

[12:11] noise, man, I hate that noise. Man. All right. Well, good luck with it. Let us know how it works out. Alright, thank you. Clumping issues. Wasn't that the working title for this show? It was years ago. We were like, but, you know, then it's not just clumping. It not the only thing we're worried about. We're worried about, you know, anti-clumping. So Nastasia, you'll enjoy this. On the way here, I was listening to all, like not listening. My iPhone decided to play for me all the stuff that I listened to that you hate. Like, like, Kenny Rogers, you hate it when Kenny Rogers comes on. I don't like Kenny Rogers. No, because you hate my reaction to it. Yeah. Like Cowder, the County came on. You hate when I talk about coward of the county. And then Smokey Robinson came on and you hate when I listen to Smokey Robinson because I like his lyrics. It's like all the stuff that you hate. I like the music. I hate listening it to it with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's more me you hate than the music. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds about right. Yeah, that's about right. You want take another call? Uh, yeah, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Matt calling for Mystic again. Hey, how you doing? I'm good. I just wanted to wait, you were talking about sort of your, the cookbook,

[13:16] both of the finishing steps last week. And, uh, and I wanted to weigh in and just say that I would definitely be interested in your thoughts on, like, the, uh, the best, the best way is to finish, uh, low term cooked

[13:29] product, because I've had a circulator for a couple years now, and some things I get, uh, really great results

[13:35] with, uh, and then sometimes I have sort of a disappointing results. Right. I mean, well, it's yeah, it's a big... I mean, it's what I'm actually working on right now a lot, like on Sunday. I ran a bunch of tests, and I'm trying to do, like, a lot of, like, tests without

[13:53] the sears all, just, like, so I can have things for people to do, like, without the sears

[13:57] all or without anything that's hardcore. I'm trying to like de-hardcore everything, uh, to see whether I can get good, um, good results, but

[14:05] like low temperature cooking almost always fails in the finishing step. don't you think? I think that's right. Because especially with, like, steaks, I find, and you were talking about sort of dropping down the temperature before you do

[14:17] the finishing tip. Yep. And that sort of, uh, sort of clarified things in my mind because I think that, sort of where I was falling sure. Yeah, so now what I've been doing. So I've been testing recently. Now, a lot depends on, on, like, let's say you were going to pan frame. This is what I've been testing recently. Let's say you're going to pan finish the steak, okay? Uh, and let's say you're going to, uh, you choose like, I'm

[14:41] gonna do, see, here's the thing. If you pre-seer, now this is the argument that I have all the time with people. Um, if you pre-sear the meat versus post-sear the meat. Now, or both. I usually recommend both, and other people, you know, like Kenji, for instance, is like it doesn't matter, but here's the thing. It does matter because the, if you do not

[15:03] pre-seer your meat, then you're gonna have to steer it much longer afterwards to get the same level of crust.

[15:10] So then the question that I have to whoever's making the, you know, the steak is what level of crust do you want? If you're a crust fiend, if you need like a real thick, heavy char on the outside of a piece of meat, well, that can really only be attained in a pan with

[15:27] copious, like, you know, like a good 8th inch of oil at the bottom, you take it up to like, you know, basically

[15:33] 36400 deep fried temperature, and then the trick with this is you can actually do it without making a lot of smoke.

[15:40] I've been testing pan frying. And the trick is that you bring the whole pan up relatively slowly to deep fryer temperature, which is like 365 in that

[15:50] rich with a layer of oil in it. Then when you put the meat into sear, you crank the hell out of it as high as it'll

[15:57] go so that you maintain your heat input at that high level. Like, that's the trick, right? It doesn't actually help you to have your oil catch on fire and smoke. What you really need to do is bring it up to the temperature where it's searing and then hold it there as best as you can. Um, so anyway, so like in that kind of a regime, in order to get a good crust on a steak, you really need to

[16:19] do um, 3 minutes. So you do like one. 5 flip one. 5 , do that twice, 3 minutes, and you can get a good crust. Problem is, if you do that afterwards. Um, you are going to overcook the meat, like pretty much straight up, you're going to overcook the meat. And so if you pre-sear it, you can cut down that postsear to like a minute on a side or a minute and a half on a side and you're not going to overcook the meat. And when you do a pre-seer, your meat's at fridge temperature. It's at like 5 degrees Celsius. And so there's very little overcook on a on a pre-seer. Now, you know, this is something that's been borne out

[16:55] by like, you know, many, many trials that I ran back when I was cooking at the French

[16:59] Culinar Institute, but I'm, you know, I'm testing it more now for kind of home people.

[17:04] The problem is, is that even I don't pre-seer meat all the time because, and I probably shouldn't say this. I'm like intensely lazy and if, and you're not supposed to do this because they're not designed for it, but a lot of times I will just take the meat as it comes in the pack, right?

[17:21] Because I'm buying pre-pack, cut, big steaks, like like high, like a lot of very nice steaks that are cut by, you know, high,

[17:29] high-end producers of like things like the Piedmontese beef or these things

[17:33] come like, you know, pre-portioned packed and the thick steaks. And I've cooked directly in those. Can't pre-sear if you don't take it out of the pack. You know what I mean? But I really shouldn't do that and I shouldn't recommend doing that. But anyway, but so I do a lot of work without the pre-serian, but pre-serian can help to not overcook on the

[17:49] post seer, but my current method is to, instead of dropping the circulator 5 degrees, which is what I used to do, and letting it sit for 40 minutes, is I'd pull it directly out a couple minutes before I'm going to serve

[18:01] it and I put it into a pot of running tap water. So I'll just put the pot in the sink, turn the tap water on, just turn it on enough so that it's flowing

[18:10] constantly, and throw the meat into that. Depending on how long you're going to sear between 2 and 4 minutes, depending on how many times you're going to sear it, you

[18:20] could take it up to 5 minutes. And that just really pushes the outside temperature of the meat down without really affecting the core very much. And then if you go and sear right away, you know, your one. 5 , one. 5 or if you need to, one. 5, one. 5, one. 5, one. You're not overcooking nearly as much in the meat, and the integrated temperature of the meat across the whole piece ends up being higher than it would have been if you had just dropped the entire piece of meat 5

[18:45] degrees, if that makes sense. So like these are the kind of like finishing like things I'm trying to work on and trying to make them as easy as I can for like working at home.

[18:53] But I had a fail, a couple failed experiments this weekend. I'm working on like a lot of the things I want to work on for home or like what I consider like party tricks. So like they're like, I'm going to have like an everyday section, which is going to have be like steaks, which is basically one of the things that I do like on an everyday basis.

[19:12] But then more like, um, you know, when you're going to have like a large group over or for large gatherings, like if you want to do,

[19:19] like if you want to do fried chicken, I actually do low temp my fried chicken ahead of time so that I can also make onion rings and

[19:27] french fries without having to change the temperature to the oil constantly, right? Uh, and I can also have different sizes of chicken pieces and not worry about whether or not I'm putting in a bunch of wings with

[19:38] a bunch of breasts because they're already pre-cooked. So, um, you know, there's going to be that section, but I also want like kind of like more

[19:44] party party tricks like whole fish or, um, things like that. So I did a whole fish, like a £3 red

[19:54] snapper, um, and trying to figure out, like, the right time temperature for it. But then I was worried about the finishing. So like normally what I would do is heat up a big vat of oil and then like set up this like incredibly

[20:07] dangerous, like, um, fry tray, crank it and then do like ladle fry for like, you know, 5 minutes. And I tried to do a home version of that. And not only did it not get as crispy as I wanted. Like, I was like, I'm not going to recommend to someone at home, sit here with a ladle and ladle, like, you know, fry oil everywhere, like in

[20:26] a hot kitchen because, like, A, it's going to freak a lot of people out and B,

[20:31] like, someone's going to get burnt and blame me for it. You know what I mean? Like really burnt. And so, like, I'm trying to figure out, like, a good way to, like, a good way to reliably finish a whole fish. Like, that's something I'm interested in. Um, working on. Had another failed experiment where, uh, so I, I bought like just a chuck steak, you know, I'm talking about, like the thick chuck steaks where they bone out the, the, uh, the 7, they bone out the, the truck and they put it back together into a roast and

[20:58] a cutting into a steak, like 22 inches thick. And then I cooked it for a day. I lucked out. I didn't get a livery flavoring one, but I wanted to get it kind of tender. Maybe when I'm in a little long, like I probably should have done it like 18 hours instead of 24

[21:12] hours, and I had a deep sear on. I crusted off. But, um, Yeah, people ended up in it, but I, the thing is, I served it next to a legit ribeye, right? And people were like, the rib eye is better. I was like, oh, well, they're like, you know, I would have liked the other one had you not given me

[21:28] the the ribeye, but I obviously I like the ribeye better. I was like, oh, so you can't you can't win. Like, I'm trying to win somehow, Nastasia, and you can't you can't win. So, like, I was like, oh, this giant piece of, like, Chuck is like a 3rd of the price of the ribeye. Um, and you know what? I took something, it's a 3rd of the price of the ribeye, and I maybe made it 80% as good, but that's not like the same as as good as. So I don't know. These are the kinds of things I'm trying to work out in the, in the book, like where I, where I hit and what I do. You know, one of the problems, low temping, uh, piece of meat like that, going back to collagen, which we were talking about for the past couple of shows, is that, um, in a

[22:04] multimuscle piece of, uh, meat that doesn't have bones in it, you actually have, um, the, um, the outside, the silver skinny pieces that surround each muscle, you know, the epomyceum, you have that in there, and that stuff does not dissolve

[22:21] well, low temp. And so it doesn't, it like feels weird. You know what I'm talking about stringy stars? Like, it's like it's cooked, it's tender, but it's like stringy. I don't know. These are things I'm working on. So yeah, finishing. Any suggestions or ideas people have. I welcome them because, you know, I gotta test them. Do you have any suggest? are you still there? Do you have any suggestions or things I should test out? I mean, I'm still here, but I don't. I mean, I think, unfortunately, I think deep frying is just, uh, beyond the bail for most people. The only thing that involves, like, a lot of oil, or, uh, you know, a lot of sort of splashing a lot of hot oil,

[22:53] BM seems, uh, seems like a tall order for people. Yeah, I know, it's a shame because deep frying is such a freaking good technique because it hits all sides of the meat at once. Like, I might, yeah, you know, it's a pain. Deep frying is so, like, such a good technique, as I've said many times on the show, it,

[23:14] it, like, is God's cooking technique. It's like, it's like, it's dry, it's instantaneous, very high watt density, dry-ish heat, that crisp stuff really quickly. You know what I mean? It's such a good technique, but it's such a pain for most people. So yeah, I'm trying to think of non-frying. But the other thing is like, what are you gonna do? Like, I remember years ago, I saw, you know, one of the early books that Eric Repair had come out

[23:38] with. I saw him give a talk at Barnes and Noble. This is a long, long, long time ago. I don't even think I was working at the French culinary yet, or, you know, maybe I just started. And, uh, he was like, you know, someone was asking him like, um, recommendations for broiling fish, right? And he says, I don't write recipes for home people to broil fish because their

[23:57] broilers suck so hard that it would make me cry to have them

[24:01] boil the broil fish in their house. So he just doesn't write recipes for it. And so like anytime I'm thinking, well, I could try to like finish something in a broiler, I think back to like a crying

[24:11] Eric repair. And I'm like, you know, oh, man, you know, I don't want to make I don't want to write recipes that make Eric repair cry. You know what I mean? That's right. Seems like a very nice guy. Yeah, you know, and plus, like, it, like, anytime someone's crying because I've produced something of low quality, it just makes me so sad. You know, this makes me so sad. Oh, speaking of quality, though. I mean, look, I like that he's a Walmart when I'm actually sad. But here's the, you know, the, I've been working on fish temperatures, which is another thing people can chime in on. So I've been pushing my fish temperatures consistently a little bit higher than I would have, let's say, 5 or 6 years

[24:48] ago because I'm trying to get out of the polarizing range of fish cooking temperatures, which are those kind of ultra low

[24:54] temperatures like in the high 40s. Um, But the problem is, is that with the exception of stripers, which I cook at a higher temperature,

[25:04] like I'm cooking like this red snapper, for instance, at too low a temperature to pasteurize it. And so I have to keep all my cook steps down to under my, you know, under my window

[25:17] of, um, of safety. And so it's kind of an interesting, it's an interesting situation. So if, like, you know, I cooked this snapper for an hour and a half at a temperature that's not a pasteurization temperature.

[25:30] It's not a growth temperature, but it's not a pasteurization temperature either. And a lot of the fish has stayed in a kind of in a bad zone for a while. Uh, so you're hoping you can kill some of that stuff in the post-finish. This is all the stuff I'm wrestling with right now, wrestling with. You don't want to give someone an unsafe recipe unless you say, hey,

[25:49] PS, this is an unsafe recipe. know what I mean? But anyway, there's always going to be someone like, why'd you give me? Why'd you give me an unsafe recipe? Because that's the way I cook it at home. You know what I mean? Stas just doesn't care. Oh. Wait, wait, so I'll work on it. If you have any suggestions call back in. You know, I was good to talk to you. Oh, we have a... Okay, cool. We have a follow-up from last week. Jeffrey writes in about fish sauce. Remember, we were looking for the Japanese fish sauces, which are awesome. And I suggested mutual trading company. Jeffrey called, said, I called the mutual trading company in Los Angeles. I'm not far from there and wanted to ask you about the showroom. They do have Ishiri fish sauce at 760 a bottle in stock, but are out of stock on the IU at 1420 a bottle. They should have it by late March, and they can ship UPS ground out of state. I think the person who was asking was in Seattle and called 213, this is the mutual trading. 213, uh, 626-9458. And if you've never had these Japanese fish sauces, You must go and purchase them right now. Scott wrote in about, um, uh, slushy machines. Touching on it very briefly last week, but I'll go through the whole question now. Fan of Liquid Intelligence and so far enjoying cooking issues. Just wait, you won't keep listening and you won't. My issue is that every source I can find says the minimum sugar content of a slush machine drink should be 12 bricks. But for some drinks, that's just way too sweet. I don't have the capability to push my machine to the limit because it's for personal use. I want it. It's my baby and I don't want to break it. So for those of you that don't know what's going on here, let's say you're doing a non-alcoholic drink, then, you know, you have to have a certain amount of sugar in the drink. Otherwise, it's gonna freeze solid, and if your slushy machine freezes solid, the dasher, which is the spinning, you know, spinning doodle inside of the ice cream thing, can seize up.

[27:39] And if it seizes up you can burn out your motor. And even if you don't seize it up, but your, um, you know, it's the mixture is too stiff, it can put the motor under a lot of excess

[27:49] strain. So manufacturers of slushy machines tend to recommend that you have a certain minimum amount of sugar in a mix so that you

[27:58] don't um, so that you don't mess up the mess up the machine. Now, the problem here is we'll get it. get into the I'll get into the rest. That's what the crux of the matter is, is that you don't want to have a drink in there that freezes so solid that it ruins the machine.

[28:15] Okay, so then back to the question. My theory is that I can trade out some of that 12 bricks for higher alcohol

[28:20] content and still get a good slush that doesn't risk machine failure. No one online has addressed this specifically, and I'm always skeptical of bars giving away their exact machine recipe to the local newspaper for all sorts of reasons that could be

[28:33] inaccurate and cost me a machine. Yeah, people give out wrong recipes all the time. Most of the time, I don't think it's malice. Do you stars when chefs give out bad recipes? Do you think it's, I think it's just, they don't bother really converting their restaurant recipe to a home recipe in a way that makes sense.

[28:49] I think that's mainly what it is, right? Anyway. I mean, I guess sometimes. You know what? Back in the day, like, back in the day, I think chess always used to hold something back from recipes so that you couldn't exactly duplicate what they're doing, but I think that's kind of

[29:02] a thing of the past. I don't really feel that anymore. Maybe I'm wrong. Uh, my question is, uh, how much alcohol do I need to compensate for a given amount of bricks, reduction to make a slush? If there's no good answer, is there a way to figure out by experimentation without risking my machine? I do a lot of frozen baggy experiments, but I don't see how these relate to the machine. They do relate, in fact. They do relate. If you do a test in a frozen baggy, you can check the texture of

[29:27] it, uh, just by putting it in your freezer, like a regular home freezer that gets down to about -20, somewhere around -20, -4

[29:35] Celsius. Um, sorry, -4 Fahrenheit, -20 Celsius in that range, is a pretty good approximation of what the texture of your frozen drink is going to be like in a machine, but, um,

[29:47] So it's not a bad approximation. It's not perfect, but it's not bad. Or do you have any good anecdotes about this? I'd uh, be less against pushing the limits of my machine if I could get, if I could access sugar and alcohol content of the final slushmit

[30:00] mix with great accuracy on a hydrometer, but I'm aware that alcohol distorts bricks

[30:04] value. Since I use spreadsheets to measure alcohol and sugar content, I can implement whatever advice you have with some precision. Scott, okay. Here's the thing. So, like, there are people, like, Jeffrey Morgenthaler, who has, he has a long blog post on using a slush machine, and he advocates a straight

[30:21] bricks percentage. I forget exactly what he says 12 to 16 bricks, but he's doing 12 to 16 bricks on a finished drink. And that is not a measure of sweetness. Alcohol. You cannot accurately measure sugar and alcohol with any form of refractometer or hydrometer.

[30:46] You can't do it. So, like, typically in a bar scenario, when you're measuring bricks, you're measuring with a refractometer. And alcohol and sugar are incredibly confounding. Now, it could be just the lucky, lucky case that, you know, that, you know, that in the general thing, a ratio of things that taste good, right? That somewhere that they confound each other typically such that 12 to 16 bricks honor a fractometer, theoretical bricks. It not actual bricks, right? It's what the refractometer reads, happens to be a good level. But I would not, I would not do this this way for a recipe creation. I would simply write down how much alcohol and

[31:31] sugar you are adding to the mix. And as I said, last week, like my bricks

[31:39] levels, in frozen drinks, are 85

[31:46] grams per liter. So that is, see, uh, that's 8.5 bricks, theoretically, in that area, right? Is that right, size? 8.5? I think that's 8.5 bricks. So it's like a lot lower. Uh, and then I'm doing um, about uh, 14 to 15% alcohol, right? And in that, I'm doing about a little under like 0.6 to

[32:12] 0.9% of acid, assuming, like, you know, if you think about regular lemon or lime juice is about 6% acidity. And so that's what I'm shooting for, about 14 to 15% alcohol, and about 85 grams

[32:26] to liter of sugar, which is, like I say, about 8.5 bricks. And, um, And then 0.6 to 0.9% of acid. Now, the issue here is that drink is going to be fine

[32:40] textured in your machine, right? And if you're worried about it, like up the out, like go to the higher end of the alcohol range. The problem is, is that high alcohol drinks like that melt extremely quickly. And this is why most, like, you know, crappy daiquiri joints in New Orleans are pushing drinks that are closer to the 7% range.

[33:01] So you're talking about much lower alcohol content. And if your alcohol content is that much lower, down like 7, 7, ABV, that's when you're going to need to boost your sugar into a higher range. So then you might, and I haven't tested drinks in that sugar ratio, but with those drinks, I would assume that you do have to push it higher, like over

[33:22] 10. Um, you know, 10, 11 to get it to, you know, to freeze, uh, right, or 10, maybe 10. anyway. But that's how I would do it. I would do the baggy test to see the texture ahead of time. It's going to give you a rough idea of how the slushing machine works, and then I don't think you're going to, and monitor it. the 1st time you make it. Like if it starts getting really thick, like dope it with a little extra alcohol to thin it out right away. But I would always dope with alcohol rather than sugar because a little pure ethanol will change the freeze rate pretty

[33:51] quickly without adjusting the overall balance that much. Anyway, hope that helps. You think that helped? don't know. You want to take a call, Dave? Yeah, sure. Call it. on the air. Hey, how you doing? Hi. Are we on the air? Yes. Hello? Hey, what's up? Hi. So this is Claire. I've called in before I have the the jetty vegetable spiralizer. Yeah. Have you shoved anything new in your veggie recently? You know, I've kind of been, I've kind of retired. I think I overate it. You've retired, you're veggetti. I'm sorry for you. I have to, I have to take a break, but more on that later. So, Dave, I have I'm in an epic battle with my sister who's on the line. Okay. And we got sick. This is Sissy. We got in a big fight over Christmas because I made a beautiful beef tenderline for

[34:48] Christmas and then we froze some of it for the hammer's instructions. And then I asked the hammer how to decaw it, and she gave me very specific instructions, put it in a

[35:01] ziploc bag with butter and oil, and then put it in water at 128

[35:06] degrees, something like that. So I, I do that, and then I go out to lock the dog, and then... And then... And then I walked in the room, not knowing any of this, and let me preface this by

[35:22] saying, I'm more the environmentalist in the family and not the cook. Right. So I walk in and see the pot boiling with these baggies of meat,

[35:34] black baggy. Wait, it was boiling? ? It was boiling? They were, they were definitely simmering a little bit. They were not boiling. It was 128 degree. I mean, wait, wait, before we go any further, was this was this on a stove or was this in a circulator? On a stove. And Claire, to be fair to your sister, you left the building with something that was not supposed to go above 120 degrees Fahrenheit on the

[36:06] stones. I assigned it to my mother who obviously caught 5 tracks. Right. This is, you know, I'm not saying anything negative about your mom, so let's, okay, keep going. So, sister, you came in and you saw a simmering pot. freak out. I'm like mom, what are you doing? Why are you, why, why do you have plastic, hot plastic in the, in the pot? And I grabbed them all with pongs or a fork thing, and I throw them into the feet. Okay. Because I am concerned about the plastic leaking into the food and being

[36:42] toxic. So then Claire and I get into a huge fight about

[36:47] UB, and whether we use the right plastic, or whether it's even a good idea, or the technique, whatever. So then we start Googling stuff and emailing it back and forth. Uh, I guess our question is, what is the proper way to be? Is food break back? And what is the temperature? All right, let me, let me start by saying I'm completely horrified. By what happened to that poor piece of meat that never did anyone any

[37:20] harm at all. Um, Secondly, Ziploc bags, if you actually use real Ziploc bags, um, from, uh, you know,

[37:32] the uh, SC Johnson Wax, a family company. Oh, wait, or no, it's just Johnson. Yeah, S. Johnson wax, a family company. Uh, they're made of strictly polyethylene. The polyethylene doesn't have any plasticizers or, you know, it's like it's BPA free and all that. So as plastics go, it is kind of the friend, like the bio-friendliest plastic, right? That and polypropylene are the 2 kind of, and I guess nylon, right? Which they use for implants. But nylon typically, there's a lot of times a nylon layer on the inside of some vacuum bags. You're not using that using Ziploc. Zip blocks are pure polyethylene. They, um, they are um, food

[38:14] safe. And I have gotten confirmation from the company,

[38:21] like in writing, basically saying that, yes, it's okay, you know, to

[38:26] do, um, sous vide work in their bags. Here's the problem. The temperature limit for a polyethylene bag is, you know, it won't

[38:41] melt until it gets above boiling, but it really loses all of its strength once it gets over about

[38:47] 85 to 90 Celsius, right? It starts getting real floppy. It starts feeling like something's going wrong, like you're going to have some leeching problems. I've never, like, noticed that to be the case, and but typically when I'm using Ziploc bags, I prevent them from boiling. because they're not really meant to stand it. Um, so sous vide in a ziploc, fine. Uh, sous vide in a ziploc, when it's boiling, like that could be problematic, not from a safety standpoint so much as from like an integrity of the of the

[39:24] bag, um, standpoint. Um, You know, there, I've been looking into ways of doing, um, trying to do, um, low temp work without the

[39:35] plastic. It's just a real hassle. You know what I mean? Either you have to circulate oil or, yeah, I'm looking into different ways of doing it, but it's just a real, it's a real kind of pain in the butt. yes, polyethylene is among the friendliest. So it's not like it's in PVC or anything like that. You know what I mean? But I don't know what is family cancer? You're not giving the family cancer. You are, and the other, the thing is, is that like, uh, but you are, you know, you are, it was beef tenderloin. Yeah. Holy crap. You know, uh, you know, like, how did it taste when it was all said and done? Or was there enough of an argument that it didn't even get eaten? Did it get eaten? Was it pre-cooked? Well, I think it was... I threw I threw a fresh piece for her in the microwave and made it extra well

[40:24] done so that she didn't have to eat the cake. No, I just, before she started to do that. And then I said, no, don't be so drunk. don't worry about it. But my question is, in doing a little bit of research on this, because I am, I'm, I'm like, you know, bottled

[40:40] water, hot in a car. I don't drink that. You know, I'm very aware of some of the issues with plastic and leeching into food and

[40:50] whatnot. My question is, you know, when we did, Claire and I did our research on this to try and prove the other one wrong. We saw that, um, mason jars were an option. Um, how do you feel about that? Well, I mean, the problem with the mason jar is a mason jar needs to be packed 100% full in order for you to get good heat transfer out.

[41:13] So like, like if you take a tenderloin, you're going to have to like pretty heavily abuse it to like, so like, yeah, you

[41:21] could treat it like a tuna fish, right? You could pack it down in, and you could then pour oil around it, and then like seal it off, and that's going to work, but it's going to take a lot longer for the temperature to go through. And the problem with tenderloin is, is that tenderloin, you really don't want to cook it that long at a low temperature.

[41:37] So like, let's say you were going to cook it. I'm just going to choose a number, 54 degrees Celsius, right? The reason being that tenderloin, the less you cook tenderloin, temperature wise, the better because it has basically no connective tissue in it. It's like so tender that, um, if you, like, it tends to taste drier and more overcooked at lower

[41:58] temperatures and let's say a ribeye does, right? A rib eye tends to taste more overcooked at a lower temperature than, let's say, a skirt steak does. So, um, you know, like Tenderloin wants to be cooked down around 54 uh, Celsius right around there. And I don't know in my head what that is, but like that's in Fahrenheit, but that's roughly what you want. But in order to get that temperature through a mason

[42:22] jar, Uh, in, you know, it's going to be a long, long time, and typically you don't want your your tenderloin cooking for longer than about, um, I don't know, 40

[42:34] minutes because if you're doing, you're going to start getting textural effects. Now, that's if you serve them side by side. People might not notice if you cooked it for, you know, too long and serve it to

[42:45] them, like, oh, this is good, this is tender, but if you serve them one side by side, they had only been cooked

[42:50] for like, you know, 40 minutes or something like that, they would tend to like that

[42:53] one, um, a lot more. So you boiled this sucker, you boiled it, and then threw it in a sink, and then microwaved it. Like, what? not all of them got microwaved. I finished. I finished it off the steering on the stove. I only microwaved her a fresh peak. Okay. How thick were the How thick were the pieces? I finished it on the stove. Was it still frozen in the center when you cut it? No. It was actually really tender. Then we got, it was good. I ate the soup be. I ate that, that, the ones that she had cooked, and we put Brenaise sauce on it, and it was delicious. That's Berena sauce for you. I know you all are concerned about the health. I mean, about the cooking techniques. Yeah, I am, I was more concerned about the health aspect of it and I'm concerned about the

[43:47] hiking plastic. Your health, you're fine. Your health is fine. Your health is fine. I'm just still like, I'm trying to picture what the meat looked like when it came out. Did it have those weird little, like, like, crevices that overcooked meat gets on the outside, where it's gray on the outside, and then it went to like raw in the center.

[44:04] Is that what it looked like when you cut the medallions out of it? No, it was really evenly cooked. Honestly, Dave, I think I did her a favor because I threw them out of the boiling water, which it probably wouldn't have boiled if my mom

[44:18] had kept her eye on it, but she she wandered off somewhere. So I actually might have saved the dinner. I'd like to look at it that way anyways. Did you enjoy your microwaved piece? She didn't even dress that one. Just a pro, we didn't miss that. She was gonna tough it out. Oh, all right. Oh, yeah, I knew not to eat that one. I would like you to note that you are both alive. I mean, we don't know whether your endocrine system has been disrupted. Just kidding. There's no endocrine disruptors in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm working on, by the way, invest in a circulator because it's been my,

[44:53] it's been my experience that if you tell someone to watch a pot that they will never watch

[44:58] it. It's like, if you tell someone to turn off a stove at a particular time, it will never happen. The problem with frozen is it's hard to calculate. If you want, they have like, you know, years ago before circulators are really cheap, everyone was trying to figure out how to

[45:15] use like picnic coolers to do low temp work. Very hard, though, with frozen because, um, you have to do a lot more calculation of like, um, the amount of energy it takes to thaw the meat first, but like that's always an option, but it's a huge pain in the butt.

[45:30] So, like, you know, uh, just carry a circulator with you, like wherever you go and then that that can be, you know, it can be your mechanical mom. watch the watch the pot for you. You know what I mean? That's a good answer. Yeah, we should put that on our Christmas list. I'm thankful that Nastasia at least had butter in the bag. At least you follow that piece of advice and put butter in the bag. You what I mean? Well, thank you for helping us, you know, a very difficult family

[45:58] issue and now we know. Yeah. So, you know, look, some people some people are just never going to be convinced on the on the plastic issue in general. I mean, the thing I don't like about is you end up throwing away, like everyone says, you can reuse the plastic. No, you can't. Who the hell reuses Ziploc bags? someone said, here's the washed out Ziploc bag? You'd be like, please, no thank you. You know what I mean? Another thing about another thing about ziplocs. If you're going to pre-sear the meat beforehand, you need to let it cool a little bit before it goes into

[46:25] Ziploc because you can, as soon as it goes above the boiling temperature of water, you will melt the plastic onto your food.

[46:31] That's not cool because, you know, you don't want literally to eat the plastic. I mean, not that it'll necessarily hurt you, but, you know, it's just like, you don't want to eat the plastic. Um, so there's, there's that. But of all the plastics, it's one of the friendlier ones. All right, great. Well, thank you so much. All right. Hey, Dave, we got a great day. Dave, we got to take our break real quick and then you can come back and do your sign off. All right, we'll take a commercial break. right back.

[47:05] This episode is brought to you by Jules, the immersion circulator for

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[47:46] Browse, chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat, and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.

[48:01] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. So, so, Tenderloin boiled, thrown across the kitchen, and then nuked.

[48:18] That's just a horror show. That's a horror show. You imagine what was said that day? That's a horror show. It's a horror it's a horror show. I figured I'd give you the break to recover from that a little bit, I guess it didn't work. First of all, by the way, of party, I'm gonna, I have one last thing I got to get too quickly because I have someone cooking for their pregnant wife.

[48:41] You also need to read that thing in front of you. All right, we'll do that on the way out. So, uh, I'm going back to the book that I'm writing, I'm working on the different party tricks, like

[48:52] 70s style party tricks that I'm going to put in there. I need to know what you guys think is fun, right? So I'm gonna do a big whole big old whole fish. Uh, try to make it friendly for home and a smaller whole fish, like the one I did over the weekend. I'm gonna obviously do like a big old prime rib. I'm gonna do a crown roasted pork, I think. But then, like, you know, what else, what other old school, like, things that people don't do anymore that are typically

[49:17] overcooked, do you want to see? Like, do you guys want to see a beef Wellington? I can do a sick beef Wellington. Speaking of tenderloin, um, or not, you know, and like old

[49:25] school, straight up duck sales, puff pastry and get it like perfect. But I don't know if this is the kind of thing people are interested in. So any sort of party tricks that people want me to, uh, to, uh, you know, put in the book for, uh, sous vide, sous vide party tricks. Let me know. Okay. Pedro wrote in. And by the way, A.K. wrote in, we're not going to get to it this week, but on mocktails, but I'll have a lot to say about like how to make nice mocktails next week, I hope. Pedro writes in from Lisbon, I think. First of all, thanks to the great work you guys do every week. Just a couple of questions. My wife is 23 weeks pregnant, and I have some questions regarding food safety and sous vide. She isn't immune to toxoplasmosis, so we take extra precaution with salads and wrong ingredients, et cetera. By looking at the low temperature charge from cooking issues blog, which you can still look up, by the way. I know that because I looked them up this morning. Uh, um, can I assume that cooking beef slash pork slash

[50:17] duck for one hour at 58 degrees Celsius will make it safe. Okay, so, what they're talking about is I have, I took all the

[50:26] old, and I think there's been some newer, newer charts. I going to look into it for the book, but looking at the charts where you basically have time and temperature. So when you're talking about food safety, you're talking this aspect of food safety, you're talking about killing bacteria. And so, you know, people, you know, back in the day, you used to say you have to cook to this preposterously high temperature because the rule is you only have to hold it there for 10 or 15 seconds and then it's safe because you've killed everything. But, as you know, as most of us know who, you know, have been working in this field for a while, that you can actually make things safe by cooking at a much lower temperature for a much longer period of time.

[51:02] And so, um, in, in poultry, which by the way, it was measured in chicken, not in duck, and it's not exactly the same, but for chicken,

[51:10] Uh, and you would never cook this low, but if you cooked chicken at 58 degrees for Celsius for an hour, you would kill salmonella.

[51:19] And so it would be safe in terms of salmonella because that's what that was measured for, a little over an hour, actually. The trick with this is. And so you assume the same thing for duck and whatnot. The trick with this is, is that when you're actually trying to pasteurize something, you don't count the exterior of the meat, you only count from when the core makes it up to that temperature.

[51:36] So you have to build in the safety factor for pasteurization to deal with, once the core reaches pasteurization temperature, Um, you know, that's when you start your start your clock. And for salmonella, you could probably go lower if you cooked

[51:52] longer, and there's probably now numbers out for duck as opposed to for chicken, which is where I did my

[51:57] thing. Beef numbers are much lower. So if you look at the curve for beef, beef, they're not trying to kill salmonella. They're trying to kill, um, uh, uh, E. coli. So anyway, so that's how that works, but it's from the middle. And then secondly, we normally go to a pizzeria where the oven, the outer layer is made of

[52:16] gold, just for the fun of it. This is in Lisbon. It's called golden oven, Fornadoro. It's so hot that the pizza only stays inside for 90 seconds, so the ingredients get roasted pretty quick. Is this also safe, as you could tell, it's our 1st baby? And then they went to Booker and Dax when they're on their honeymoon, you know, unfortunately, it's, you know, closed. But when you come back, hopefully we have the new place open. And lastly, I forgot to ask about alcohol and food. Is it safe to use it in risottos and beer batters for frying, or the, you know, well, the heat evaporated totally. The heat will not evaporate it totally, but their heat will evaporate a lot of it, and so much of it is gone, and it's usually so diluted that, like, I've never worried or

[52:58] hesitated serving it to a pregnant person, right? Because, A, you're not adding that much. And B, you're cooking off the majority of the alcohol. So it's a very small amount that's, you know, that's in there. The only time that I worry about it is when I have someone who, either for moral reasons or, um, you know, just has to be really strict with himself to not consume any alcohol, that they, uh, that's the only time that I would

[53:24] forego on something like that. And the, um, you know, and later on, like, you know, in breastfeeding, we, I've talked about on the show before, like the new research that goes against what I used to say on consumption of alcohol, uh, just prior to breastfeeding.

[53:38] But anyway, we'll talk about that later. Back to your pizza oven being safe. If you were looking at, I mean, those temperatures are so high that typically people who are cooking a

[53:46] 92nd, like Neapolitan style pizza aren't putting a boatload of toppings on,

[53:52] right, Styles? like they're not like topping the hell out of it. And if you get up to the point where like the cheese is nicely melted and the crust is cooked, right?

[54:01] So you know how like sometimes Styles, when you look at it, like if they try to do the super fast, super high thing and the crust is too thick, you get that layer of uncooked crust in between that thing where the sauce hits, that's an indication that it hasn't like gotten up to those really high temperatures.

[54:14] But if the sucker's cooked all the way through, I'm pretty sure you're hitting in

[54:18] the, at least in the 60s of degrees Celsius, and anything up in there is wiping out anything that's going to alias. So I wouldn't worry about it too much. Um, and, uh, but, you know, it's good to worry about, um, good to worry about these things when, uh, when your wife is pregnant. And if I were you, I'd be busting out like all kind of like pasteurized steaks, rare and all kind of runny eggs pasteurized because that's what I, that's whenever I have the pregnant, when my wife was pregnant or my

[54:48] sister-in-laws or when friends come over pregnant, I always give them that stuff that they're not supposed to have at restaurants because I know I can do it safely with the

[54:54] circulator. Uh, and I would get my normal sign off, but I'm supposed to give this, uh, this ad that in fact we were reading in the middle. So I'm going to sign off now, right? And then I'm going to read that. Keep it consistent. Okay, keep it consistent. Yeah. So this thing that I'm about to recite to you actually happened in the middle of the show, even though you might think it's the end of the show, this, what I'm reading to you now is actually happening in the middle. Time is a flat circle. Modernist pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. Janie, Chris, and the modernist pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own

[55:30] kitchen. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiast, no matter your skill or experience, modernist pantry, has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences.

[55:48] Visit modernistpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call modernist pantry, the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchenalchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips and tricks. And don't forget to follow modernist pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary

[56:06] ingredients and tools. And that is it, folks, for cooking issues. See you next time.

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