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[0:40] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network broadcasting every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from a British

[0:50] pizzeria in Bushwick. Joined as usual with Nastasia, the

[0:54] Hammer, Lopez. how you doing, Stas? Today, we do not have Dave, Tasha Tor, a.k.a. Dinosaur in the booth. We have Victor, Victor, how you doing? Hello. You've been with us before. I forget. What do you like and don't like? What are your food likes and dislikes? Um, I like pretty much everything. Like we talked about last show. I'm Brazilian, so we kind of talked about rice and beans, but you know, I like meats. That's, like, kind of... So you're kind of like my son. I like meat and rice and beans and nothing. Nothing else. Middle Eastern food. My girlfriend is Lebanese, so I really love Lebanese food. Nice. Do you know that the by the way, we're also joined today by Peter Kim, the leader of the museum of food and

[1:36] drink? Everyone loves to... Yeah, they, you know, they, they, the person everyone loves to hate. and also, my, my, my man... Do you prefer to be, what, you prefer to be hate to love? Yeah, yeah. All right. And we got Nick Wong, you know, currently

[1:53] at what's your current title there at the Momofuku Sambar? The shift of cuisine. Chef to cuisine. Chef cuisine, but, you know, like, you know, worked with us back at the French culinary institute, I don't know, 8000000000 years. Sounds right. And, you know, has been lots of places. So if you have questions about how they do stuff at. Last time he was on the show, he didn't say anything. No, that was 2 times was 2 times ago. Yeah, has spent time stagging at Noma and a bunch of other places and working in California. So if you have any questions about working in San Francisco or in Mark

[2:26] Den, Denmark or, you know, here in New York, he's also a little known fact, been mistaken many times for David

[2:33] Chang. That's actually a widely known fact. Well, you know, among your friends, you know what I'm saying? So, like, been, like, constantly misrecognized as Dave Chang. So he just runs with it. You roll with it, right? I've signed a few menu. Yeah, you're like, you're like, make someone's night. You're also, you're like the body double when someone comes to assassinate Dave, they're going to take you down. Pretty much. Yeah, all right. I'll look same.com. Yeah. Wow. Well, interestingly, different ethnicities, Nick, and Dave. Yeah. I thought there was just the one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, what were we talking about? We're talking about some food Star Wars. We're talking about Star Wars. No, no, before that, Victor had mentioned some food stuff. Oh, Lebanese. So do you guys remember that old 24 hour Lebanese joint on house dinner closed down recently? Baroquette? Yeah, they had that, and like, and like, all I ever used to go, they would be screaming the same order constantly for that, like, have you had this victim, this, like, kind of Lebanese

[3:29] pizza-like thing? Oh, yeah. Lamajan. And then we'd like La Machan, la Machan, la Machan. I was like, it was my equivalent of like cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger from the, what's it called from Saturday Night Live. But, yeah, another New York landmark, gone. Yeah. Uh, and joined by special guests from Chef's debts. Chris Young on the phone. How you doing, Chris? I'm great. are you, Dave? Doing all right. So, yeah, so we got a full group of people. We got a bunch of questions, and you want to, you want to do any sort of pitcher, pre-roll here, Chris? Yeah, if you haven't gotten tool, you should go to chefsteps.com and check it out. And we're going to have some really cool new updates coming for jewel owners in the very near future. I'm really excited. I can't talk about it yet, but uh, Douglas Baldwin, a bunch of the math guys have been doing some really cool stuff. So, uh, and as have the app team, so there will be major new updates for those of you who are dual owners coming out uh, in April. So for those of you that don't know, Jewel is the immersion circulator by

[4:28] chef steps, and, you know, you run it via smartphone, Android or what's it

[4:36] called, Apple, the one I have. Your iPhone, or you can use Alexa with, you can do it all voice controlled and hand-free, which is great when your hands are covered with goo. I've actually seen that I saw freaking Kenji Lopez Altgo. He literally was like, Alexa, turn on my jewel to 57

[4:54] degrees, Celsius. And she was like, okay, Kenji. And I was like, what planet do I live? Like, I somehow fell asleep and woke up on a different planet. You know what I mean? It's like, but yes, it actually works. I saw it in, you know, and the Alexa turned on from across, I mean, that jewel turned on from across the room. But the other cool thing about it, very small form factor. Uh, and basically like waterproof with like a magnet on it. So you don't need to worry about, you know, you don't need to worry about, like, a lot of my circulators have water damage in the electronic

[5:25] areas and I used to have to tell people all the time how to mitigate the disaster that happens when that idiot drops the circulator into the bucket, which

[5:33] mean, how many times have you seen that happen, Nick? I've seen worse happen. to circulators. I've seen them like drop on the floor. You've seen what have you seen? What's worse than dropping in water? dropping in soup? No, I told an extra, and, hey, you know, wrap up the top with a little bit of plastic to maintain the temp, bring it up faster. Walk away. I come back like 30 minutes later. He's wrapped the entire thing in plastic. The entire circulator is just wrapped up in plastic along with all the

[5:57] water and it's just steaming out and killing itself. Well, that's amazing. I love that. But isn't this... That's an IQ test. But you know what it is, Chris? And you've been in, like, lots of high-pressured kitchen situations, and Nick, obviously, like both of you have your pedigree with, let us

[6:15] say, mercurial folk in the kitchen, right? You know, because, you know, Chris was, you know, many years ago was running the Fat Duck

[6:23] Kitchen, uh, what was your title there? You were also, were you, were you, were you chef to cuisine or were you on research side? What was your title of it? I was the, I was the, uh, the head chef of the Fat Deck experimental kitchen. All right, okay. So, right safe to say people get agitated at there, right? Yeah, the tempers might have gotten raised a few times. Yeah, so here's a theory I have about cooking in, like, professional cooking people in

[6:46] general, is that, like, for some people that, like, hyper, like, I get it. You have to be hyper on edge and on point when you're a perfectionist and everybody can screw it up and everyone has to be on point all the time. But then when you get knuckleheads in, they're so frightened because of the way everyone acts, that they're like, I will just literally follow,

[7:04] I will not ask, because if I ask, I will be decapitated, blah, blah, blah. And then you get this kind of crap happening. I wonder whether your food actually ends up more ruined than

[7:13] not because you freak the hell out of that person as soon as they show up in the door. What do you guys think? My personal thought is, the more you can get someone to relax, the better off they'll do when it comes to food. Right, but it's a fine line, right? So, like, you know, famously, like Nick Wong, when his 1st week working at Sambar, like 8000000000 years ago, like, uh, totally messed up the family meal, like, ruined it, like, burnt it, like, crispy, crispy, ruined, burnt, like, so, uh,

[7:45] Chris, just for in a picture in your head, entire, like, uh, couple hotel pans of braids where the liquid had run out.

[7:53] So you got that in your head. So it's like, it's all ruined. It's ruined. And so like, and Chang happened to be in the kitchen that day. And so normally you would get completely eviscerated for something like that, but Chang happened to catch the look of horror on Nick's face as he opened the thing and realized that there was so much internal self-punishment happening

[8:15] that like any external punishment would have been just superfluous. You know what I mean? So that's what you want to, like, instill in people that, like, internal of self-abuse. Like that's what it is self-loathing, self-abuse. That's what makes a good cook is like this self-abuse, self-loathing thing. You know what I mean? I can't believe you remember that. Absolutely. That's why I still self flagellate every night. Yeah, right? Yeah. So anyway, I think so, if you're looking for someone... If you're looking for someone and you want them to be a good cook, like if they're like super, the reason I think that chefs hate super confident people isn't that just that they're snot nose,

[8:51] right? And, like, and, like, think they know more than they do, it's that they don't give off the feeling that they're punishing themselves

[8:57] enough. You know what I'm saying? It's like you gotta, you gotta, you want that punishment, that self-punishment. It shows them that you care. But I think like, but I think you need to apply a lot less external punishment if you can engender in people or find people who will punish themselves.

[9:18] That's easier said than done, yeah. And look, you know, it's, you want people that are driven, that are,

[9:26] uh, that are reliable and that push themselves hard. The problem is, you know, you're mostly dealing with like 19 to 25 year

[9:32] olds and some people haven't. A lot of people at 19 to 25 are flaky and not worth your time. So, like, that's the challenge is like sorting out the ones who are going to work versus the ones who are just going to flake out.

[9:43] All right. Well, but do you think you can, do either of you actually think that you can take someone who doesn't have that sort of internal drive and actually get that drive into them? Or is it just you're like winning or losing on the margins based on what's already there when they show

[10:00] up? You could teach skills, you can teach, you can teach etiquette, you could teach all of these things. But can you really teach someone to give a crap? Or, I mean, obviously being surrounded by other people that give a crap helps people to give a crap more. And if you're even someone who comes in giving a crap, if everyone around's a joker, they stop giving a

[10:17] crap. But can you really train someone to give a crap? Doesn't mean you stop trying. don't know. What do you think, Chris? I'd say my success with that is pretty marginal. Um, and and, you know, these days, I don't have the time for it. So if you're not going to care, I'm not going to invest my time. How about this? How about training? Obviously people show up and they don't have skill and they can acquire skill, right? But you, this is another thing. You meet people, you know that X, Y, Z person's never going to get fast. You know what I'm talking about? Because they don't have this like kind of sense of urgency. Do you think you can train sense of urgency in the kitchen? Yeah, I think that, I think that's, that's learnable if you care. I mean, you know, I remember when I 1st got to the fat duck as a stage air, I was like sewing over my head, I was always in the weeds, but, you know, I came earlier. I say later, I put the time in and people help people who help themselves. So, yeah, you can learn that sense of urgency. I don't know, Nick, you had a little like a little bit of a vegan face on. What do you, you don't think you can train speed or not speed, but urgency, right? Speed comes, your ability to be fast comes with practice. Your ability to understand that the food needs to get out right now. Yeah, I don't think a lot of people come into the kitchen, especially new people. Like, they don't have that sense of urgency. They don't understand why it is. And then it's up to you to explain to them why it's important and to show

[11:41] them, like, listen, everybody else here is running circles around you and you're dragging the rest of the team down.

[11:46] So pick it up or else we got to find somebody else. Or they're going to hate you and, you know, Ganky with a Shiv, but yeah. So, but when you know,

[11:55] it's like, I wish there was some, there's got to be some way to help people other than this kind

[11:59] of like prison mentality. You know what I mean? There's got to be some non-prison mentality way. I mean, look, what? You just got to treat everybody. Oh, this is just me. But I like to cheat all my staff as individuals to try to figure out what makes them tick. Once you find, like, what makes them tick and you make that connection, it's a lot easier to get them to do what you want because now it's, they're not doing what you want. They do what they want to do, which also aligns with what you want them to do. Right. I mean, it's an interesting, It's an interesting problem. It takes a lot more time and effort and patience a lot of patience. Right. I mean, they're kind of like, yeah, I mean, the prison mentality thing comes with the low pay and the need to get everyone up

[12:43] in operational quick, but it's just, I think it's really long run pernicious. I really think it's long run pernicious. Don't like it. Uh, okay, well, so, Chris, uh, do you want to, like, are you, so coming

[12:54] out with a new jewel? Oh, that's what we're talking about. So the jewel doesn't have these problems, even if your knucklehead intern, overwrapped, uh, the jewel, the jewel would not have any problems with that. Theoretically, you can dishwash it, right? You don't tell people you can, but you theoretically can, right? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, we didn't go through the rigorous certification to say this thing is like

[13:15] submersible and, and frankly, we don't think that's a great idea, but if you drop it in the water, if you throw it in a sink, if you threw it in a dishwasher, that's not

[13:23] going to break it. It's a stupid ass thing to do, but it's not going to break it. What about if you throw it at your chef? Will it break? You know, we do the 3 foot drop test and it survives pretty well. So if you hit the chef in the chest, it'll be okay. You know, if you're, it's sturdy enough though, you're probably going to end up going to prison for assault. Ah, ah, so is it the new like, remember when mag lights, they used to be like, not only is it a flashlight, but you could beat the

[13:48] crab ladder people with it. Remember that back in the day and you would buy your mag light based on how many decells it had in it? You have the giant 4D cell, you know, mag? That's exactly what I was going for when we designed it. I wanted that sort of sturdiness. You could clock someone over the head with it. So, in other words, like, if you have a bunch of jewels in your kitchen, you don't need to have the baseball bat behind the

[14:07] bar, like we always do. No, you can just clock them at the end of jewel. There you go Yeah, it's metal. It's very nicely machine metal thing on the end. Solid Ford stainless steel. Those parts aren't going to ding. Yeah, that's sweet, man. Yeah, and just a note, like unlike a lot of, uh, a lot of other, uh, you know, circulators that you

[14:26] see or any piece of equipment, really. Uh, all the parts are basically, um, subassemblies that you get from other people, whereas the Julia took the interesting kind of step of of kind of custom engineering, everything from maximum density, almost like an iPhone mentality of design.

[14:40] You know what I mean, in terms of like, yeah. There's out of 37 parts and jubal, the only off the shelf part is one is the single screw that's inside it. So, yeah, everything's custom engineered. We even engineered the manufacturing process and the robots that build it. So we kind of went overboard. Yeah, have you visited your robot army? I just got back. I was in China earlier this month, so I got to go to Shanghai and Sujo and all over. So yes, I was visiting the robot army and I, you know, I want more robots. Yeah, everybody wants more robots. Man, you're lucky. You get to go to a good food town. I get to go to Shenzhen when I go to China. Not that Shenzhen's bad people. I mean, but it's no Shanghai. You know what I'm saying? I'll say it. Shenzhen is terrible. Don't go. Wow. So, like, if you're going to compare Shenzhen to a US city, what would it be? Uh, Detroit. is way more productive than Detroit. Wow, roughing up on everybody. Wow. All right. So what do you do? Like, is it like Dallas? Yeah, you know, at the risk of like sales are going to plummet now in Texas, but, um, you know, it's huge. Like all of those cities are absolutely massive and and it's hard to get a sense of scale. Like, you think that New York City is big, but like, New York City wouldn't be that big of a city by China standard. No, Shenzhen would swallow it. And, you know, Shenzhen's really, really productive, but, you know, it's dirty. Um, it's dirty and it's chaotic and people are busy like building shit and garages and everything. So, I don't know, I guess it's like Detroit during the glory days of manufacturing cars. It sounds like New York, but New York doesn't have anyone building anything. Oh, boom, New York. We can't you can't get anything built here. Chris, have you ever tried to get something built in New York City? such a nightmare. It's like impossible to do everything. I can't, I cannot imagine it's worse than trying to get something built in France, which was, which was my unenviable task

[16:38] at the fat duck. Oh my god. Yeah. So we're we're beating up on Detroit. Texas, China, in particular. France, New York. Who else have we not insulted yet? We can insult everybody. Anyway. Okay, wait, but do you want to say anything specific before we just answer questions, some of which involve chef

[16:58] steps and some of which are sous vide related? No, nothing specific. I'm just, you know, happy to take any questions your your callers communities have. All right, so listen, this is your chance to talk to Chris Young about any sort of either chef step oriented

[17:12] thingamajig or any sort of jewel related thingamajig, which I guess is a chef. Or if they want to talk about modernist or the fat

[17:19] duck? you know, whatever. You have my time. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. All right. So, uh, so we got Carlos writing in, and this is something that, you know, all of us, except for Peter, Peter has nothing to say about this.

[17:33] No, I'm kidding. First of all, I hope all is well with you. That's why I love you. If you hate yourself, I love you. That's how it works. I hope all is well. And that Dave, that's me, enjoyed my trip to El Paso. I did. We didn't get to talk that much. Juarez is actually pretty cool, even though no one goes there. I mean, like, Juarez is like not, I mean, Juarez, like, if you're going to take Shenzhen or Juarez, I would take Juarez. They have more velvet paintings in Juarez than they do. Yeah, Peter was also with me and Waters. is a good town, right? How many velvet paint have you been to Shenzhen? I saw 0 velvet paintings in Chen? That was a pretty sweet painting you picked up on the street there. Oh, hell yeah. Juarez was the velvet velvet painting capital of the world. for a long time. Do you like velvet paintings, Nick Wong? Yes. Chris, are you a fan of velvet paintings? My entire house is outfitted with velvet paintings of Elvis. this is why I like you. Okay. I'm writing to get Dave's take on putting oil or fat into the bag when cooking with an immersion circulator.

[18:32] My main question, and Chris, think about this, because I don't know if you've thought about this. Uh, my main question is about flavor dilution. In his guide to sous vide steak, Kenji Lopez

[18:43] alt, says he tested with olive oil and butter, and that they diluted the flavor by pulling fat soluble flavor compounds from the aromatics, uh, and the beef into the bag liquid, which is then typically

[18:53] discarded. Curiously, his chicken breast post doesn't mention adding fat at all and only discussing aromatics. However, in his halibut and salmon post, he does say that halibut flesh absorbs flavor better than land meat and adding fat will prevent multiple portions from fusing together. Meanwhile, now we're talking about you. The chef step guys preach that fat should always be added to the bag. It seems their main reasons for this are presentation. No corner of the bag deforming the food, no aromatic stamping the food and washing away, and the ability to wash away the albumen from the salmon. It seems kind of obvious that different foods will take different preparations. But I'm curious as to Dave, i.e. my take, especially with regards to flavor dilution. Thanks again. Looking forward to the next booker in Dax and the low temp book. All right, I'll give you my point of view. First of all, I've never done a triangle test with meat that has

[19:41] had, you know, like butter or, you know, in it versus not. I will say this. Well, it's not true. I've done it with oil, like heavily flavored oil, definitely adds a flavor to things like salmon. There's no freaking question that it's true. But on a steak, I've never really noticed a difference in a taste of a steak between with butter or without butter. I've also tasted the butter that I've used and the oil I've used from the bag, and yes, it will take on

[20:08] your whatever rosemary or your garlic or any of that, onions, aliens, it will pick up. It doesn't taste, especially meaty. So I'm very, very, not a big believer that you're going to dilute the flavor of your meat overly much with the oil. I just don't buy it. And Kenji specifically doesn't mention that he did a triangle test. It was more, I think, kind of theoretical in him thinking that this was an effect. I will say this. If you're using the zippy technique to put, you know, to fill your bat, you need oil because you need something that's liquid that's in the bag.

[20:41] straight up, you need it. And when you're doing a hard vacuum in a vacuum bag, unless your product is frozen, the bag's

[20:48] going to squish the hell and make ugly pillow shapes on your meat if you don't have some sort of fat in the bag. And that really is the only reason to do it other than you have this fat leftover that you can use for other things. Exception, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. what's your take on it, Chris? So, you know, Kenny's a really smart guy, so I'm hesitant to disagree, but I'm going to go, yeah, I didn't see a triangle test. So whenever a chef, and even if it's me or it was Heston, it's

[21:13] like if there's not a triangle test, and you haven't done it a couple times, and somebody's making a pretty bold claim like that, I'm inherently suspicious.

[21:19] Here's the other thing that I, that I know that, you know, there's this idea of diluting flavor, adding flavor, but that's not really how humans perceive flavor, and there's a misunderstanding

[21:29] that like more concentration means more flavor. That's not really true. What the sensory scientists have shown is what humans are really good at is detecting how quickly the aroma aromatic molecules, the rate of change, like how quickly it goes from 0 to 100

[21:43] and back to zero. We don't detect absolute concentrations. So the idea that you can pull all of the steaky flavor out and dilute it into the butter. like even if the concentration were go to go down a little bit. When you bite into that steak and start chewing it, the rate of the rate of change, the steaky flavor is going to go through the roof no matter what. So, I'm pretty skeptical. Um, you know, I'm willing to do the triangle test, but I think the benefits of better appearance, having some fats in the bag that I can use to make a pan

[22:14] sauce, um, I think that outweighs any risk that you're somehow reducing the

[22:20] meaty impact of the state. Right. And it's 100% true that if you bag raw meat without any sort of liquid

[22:27] fat, that it distorts and makes ugly shapes on the meat.

[22:31] And it's also 100% true that if you could mitigate that by vacuuming less, but then you have air pockets,

[22:37] which like can make little nasty. You ever notice how sometimes with an air pocket, especially when your temperatures are pretty low and there's oxygen touching the meat, you'll get a weird discolored area where that air pocket was,

[22:46] Chris? Yeah absolutely. I mean, it doesn't really matter because you're going to postseer it, but I just don't like it because that color also indicates that there's possible oxidation going on there, which does actually

[22:55] affecting whatever. I know it's not, that's not a big deal either. So I'm not going to make a big point about how that, but in general, I don't like it. And if you're using zippies, which is 99.9% of what I do, you're using zippies,

[23:07] then you have to have fat. I will say this, though. I do it the other way a lot. Like if I buy meat that's already in the cryo, Chris, you're

[23:16] going to get really mad at me. Like if I don't have a lot of time, I'll just toss the freaking market cryo into

[23:21] the into the circulator and go with it. I know I probably shouldn't. Yet I, I do. No, that's totally fine. Like, you know, especially if you're just trying to get dinner on the table, like, don't let perfection be the enemy of like done. There you go. There you go. And especially because like a lot of you, if you're going to go out and you're going to get a steak, you're going to get a high value cut and a lot of high value cuts at like higher

[23:41] end like butchers are pre-portioned from the supplier. So if you're getting like a Lafrita or or one of these like weird Pmontese cuts or any one of these things. A lot of those, like the ribs, the strips, and the porterhouses come pre-portioned in the cryo, and I'll tell you, this is true. things that are in cryo, not frozen. I actually did a test recently of from Frozen in from Store Cryo, but the

[24:09] couple tests. But, um, there is something in a, in, in what's nicely called wet age. Let's give it a nice term, wet aging, right? And all everyone here knows that when you open a cryo bag on fresh meat, that it's got that cryo bag smell to it. Chris, you know what I'm talking about. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, and that's my favorite smell in the world. No, it goes away. You know what I mean? Like, and so I've tested that, like, the searing knocks that stuff out. It's no longer perceptible, as long as it's not bad. It's no longer perceptible. And there have been several scientific studies on the smell of cryobagged, uh, cryobagged meat when it comes

[24:49] out. And all of them have shown fairly rigorously that having it out of the bag for a while, just 30 minutes out of the bag without

[24:57] cooking will remove that smell. But searing it, knocks it out. So don't worry overly much about that. Would you agree or disagree, Chris? I mean, I agree. I'm actually wondering if those smell, those, the smell, the aromatic molecules actually reactorates here and you actually get a better sear from it. I've never tried. Maybe they're like, they're like mild anaerobic bacterial bull crabs is what they are. like non-spoilage bacterial bullcraps. If I get, if I remember, which you know I won't, I'll forward you the papers. Oh, I'd love to see the papers. We should call it meat coji and make it a thing. Well, you know, we're going to have pretty soon on from our cook quest from Boston, who puts Koji on everything. It's going to come on, so we're able to talk about it. We got a caller. Call her, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how are we doing? Doing all right. What do you got for us? All right, I'm AJ. I'm from Charleston, South Carolina. I have a couple questions about lemon curd for you. Okay. The 1st one is, I'm going to use lemon curd as a cake filling and wedding cake, and I want it to be a little bit thicker than I normally would make it, but they're looking for something a little less rich and a little less sweet.

[26:02] I've already reduced the sugar, and I'm wondering what kind of jell agents you might recommend for something, a little bit looser than like a Jell-O consistency, by that

[26:11] lice and not run, because I have to kind of keep the yolk, the yolk and sugar level down, so I can't take a name

[26:18] of that. Yeah. So, I'm going to let Chris, because Chris did a bunch of experiments on Kurds for modernist cuisine back in the day, so I'm going to let him chime in in a second. I will say this. Anytime someone says they want it less sweet, they probably don't actually have a reference in their head. Like, lemon curd in certain tart applications is incredibly sweet, but other lemon curds are not that sweet at all,

[26:39] but whatever. I mean, like, I don't like thinking a lot about having to worry about custards if they're right or wrong, if I'm doing a

[26:46] one off. So in general, I just, like, I just cheat and I'll probably, I would probably use something like, like, I would probably just fluid gel

[26:52] it because that's what I, that's just the way I would roll. I would probably gel and fluid gel it. But Chris probably has an actual way to make the custard work. Chris, what do you think? Um, so, I, you know, just lemon curd, you know, my immediate reaction goes to pectin. Like, fluid Jell-O totally work, and if this was the fat duck again, I'd be busting out the Jell and F,

[27:11] then, you know, uh, fluid gelling it up. But, uh, you know, the acid and lemon kind of makes things difficult, but pectin's going to be easy and it's got great flavor

[27:20] release and, you know, it's readily available and if you really want to go low sugar, which is going to mean it's going to be sour as

[27:27] heck. You can get the low sugar, um, acted in grocery stores that they sell

[27:33] for like low sugar jams and jellies. Is that that's an LMO pectin? That's low metoxy? Yeah, that's LM pectin, and it'll work fine in lemon curd, and, you know, you get a really nice texture and just can bring the sugar way down if you want. Do you have a recipe for that on chest steps anywhere? an LM custard? Not on chef steps, and I'm trying to pull up ancient history of some 2200 page book that I was involved

[27:56] in. There is going to be a lemon curd recipe in volume 4 in the fluid gel

[28:06] section. But my recollection is it is uh, uh, it's going to be uh, probably an Agar fluid gel, which isn't actually what I do now. I, I, I get some pectin and do just a little bit of experimenting. And if you just, uh, uh, If you just basically follow a jelly recipe, um, and maybe cut the concentration of the pectin in

[28:28] half. I think you're going to get something that's going to work for you. Right, but you're doing you're not doing post injection, right? You're doing you're doing bake in place, no? Like putting putting baked inside? Sorry, one more time. Are you doing like a post injection or are you doing like the Betty Crocker style putting baked inside action thing where it

[28:46] like comes out of the oven with the crap inside of it? Oh, no, bacon all the layers separately, um, makes the fillings and... Oh, yeah, man, golden. Go make like a make a jelly style, like Chris is saying, if you want to go, if you want to go, you know, try to tweak it out, use

[29:01] a low M pecked in, otherwise just fluid gel the hell out of that thing, and then it's

[29:05] gonna stay like, it'll like the next ice age will come and go and your your custard will be fine. You know what I mean? Yeah, hecton also seems like a good cheap option as well. And then a real quick, the lemon curd, but not for the same application, if I'm making Meyer lemon curd, and I want to can it, how would you recommend I boost the

[29:22] acidity, so that way it's a bit safer for the show? It's of acid. Just citric acid? Yeah, my like the acidity in Meyer Lemon is just a more it's a less aggressive amount of citric

[29:35] acid and there's, you know, there are minor other acidic constituents in lemon,

[29:40] but, I mean, citric acid. Chris, you don't know the acidity off the top of your head of Meyer Lemon D. I do not. No, and it's going to it's going to vary, but unless you want to pressure can it, which I don't

[29:52] recommend. Um, you know, I would, I would add just a little bit of citric acid or if you don't want to go get pure citric acid, just blend in some normal lemon juice to get the pH low enough that you can, uh, you can actually sous vide

[30:05] can it. We've got a bunch of content coming out on that, but if you, uh, if you cook it, uh, um, in a jar right in a sous vide

[30:11] bath, you can, uh, you can actually pasteurize it long enough to make it shelf staple with sous vide. And that way you don't have to go as high a temperature, so you're not going to get that cooked citrus flavor as much. The only issue with lemon juice is lemon juice is, lemon juice is 6% acidity, whereas citric, straight citric acid is like 100% acidity, and they sell it in

[30:31] the stores. I mean... All right, perfect. Gotcha. Well, that's all I had for today. I just got food lab as a Christmas gift, or as a birthday gift brother, and I'm stoked about that, and the jewel is going to be my next kitchen. So I'm really happy, especially to catch you guys on air. Thank you very much for your help. Michael, hey, Chris, that stuff's in stock right now, right? Sorry, say what? Jules in stock right now? Oh, yeah, it's in stock. If you order it, it will be at your house within 3 days. Nice. Awesome. Right on. And if you ask one of your, if you ask somebody who has a jewel, they can give you a referral coupon right from every app that they open the, or even if you download the app and create an account, you can get a referral

[31:15] coupon that'll save you 20 bucks if you order it from chefsteps.com. Even better. Nice. Good tip. We'll be right back with the whole gang and cooking issues.

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[32:46] And we are back, but unfortunately for you guys. Well, maybe fortunately, I'm reading another piece of advertisement to you. Modernist pantry is created by food lovers and cooking issues fans, just like you. Janie, Chris, and the modernist pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen.

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[33:41] All right, now, and if that wasn't enough advertising, Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. Oh, wow, this is a great setup, Dave. So everybody's very enthusiastic to hear about this, but we've got the Mofad

[33:53] spring gala coming up on April 13th. We have a good crew coming in. Got Gail Simmons hosting Marcus Samuelson's cooking. We've got, uh, we're honoring Ruth Rishel, and uh, it's coming up on April 13th. We've got some schmuck doing cocktails. I hate that guy. What's his name? Eugene. No one knows my middle name. Yeah, yeah, I know. Now they do. The man with 31st names, David Eugene Arnold coming in to make cocktails. Yeah. So, yeah. So anyway, we're celebrating immigrant food cultures and details at benefit.mofed.org. And, uh, it's 750. So it's... Not $7.50 when I 1st saw it, I'd be like, bargain. Yeah, yeah. No, it's definitely a pretty penny, but it definitely, it's, in my estimation, the best dining event in the city. And, oh, yes. Okay, you're really selling it there, Peter. Lots of peaches. Yes, yes. And it, you know, of course, most importantly supports the exhibits and programs of the museum of food and drink, which is something that I think you care a little bit about, Dave. I care a lot about that. So one more thing I have to get out of my head because I just got told about this. I haven't seen it, but apparently Nick Wong was featured on a documentary about Noma, where they walk up to Nick Wong as part of the

[35:14] kitchen and he's chopping veg, he's chopping veg at a station, and the camera person, this made it into the documentary, walks up, puts a microphone, like at Nick's face, doesn't look

[35:26] up. He's still chopping veg, and the person goes, so would you like to say something about what it's like to work at Noma? He goes, nope. And keep slicing veg. Slightly and slightly exaggerated. Yeah, it's just a YouTube video. Do you know the, there's this food walker named Duck Scones? Yeah, no, yeah. Yeah, ducks on the guy. He was he was at Noma doing a little like video tour of Noma. It wasn't a documentary.

[35:55] Oh, where? I'm still gonna cut your head off. I can't wait. I deserve it. All right. So anyway, I love that. Nope. All right. Chris, here's another good one for you, all right? You still there, Chris? Yep, I'm here. All right. I got a good one for you on Shocking, which is from the modern, like a modernist cuisine. I don't know whether it was, it's while you were there, I think. I was perusing some of the old blog topics for Modernist Cuisine today and ran across an article on heat shocking produce. Uh, so what they do is, is they, they put into a

[36:31] bag or, or you don't need to. So like asparagus or asparagus is 2 or 3 minutes at 131 F,

[36:37] broccoli is like 7 to 8 minutes at like a 117 F, which is 47 C, and cantaloupe is like 60 minutes at like 50 degrees

[36:45] C, and so on. a whole bunch of things that they recommend. But it's basically to kill off the enzymes and stuff like that. And McGee did something on that for berries to preserve berries for longer. So like, so what do you, what do you, what do you think about that? So yeah, I was involved in some of that. And, you know, this came out of some academic papers that we pulled that was looking at, like, how do you keep berries pressure for longer? And, uh, you know, I don't think the mechanisms were were entirely understood. I certainly don't think we at modernist cuisine understood exactly what the mechanisms were. I don't know if the academic literature has resolved it, but these low temperature heat checking didn't so much destroy and

[37:24] denature, and as rather, it kicked sort of, it kicked them into high gear. And so that could both accelerate ripening, but it also seemed to accelerate sort

[37:33] of, um, uh, the production of some of the chemical byproducts that keep like any bacteria on the surface from rotting the fruit or veg. So you could take things like fresh berries, briefly, thermal

[37:46] shocked them at pretty low temperatures, like not enough to cook them or change their texture.

[37:50] Um, but all of a sudden they would have like a 6 or an 8 week shelf like. Like, you know, if you get like raspberries, and you have them, you know, you have them on your counter. they're going to get a little, get a bunch of molds and stuff growing on them pretty quick. If you heat if you heat shock them, um, you're essentially going to prevent that. They're going to be fine for a really long time in your fridge or even on your counter, and it seems to be a combination of you're weakening a lot of the molds and yeast and surface bacterias on the fruit, and you're also sort of putting

[38:23] the fruits enzymatic system into overdrive so it can protect itself. And it happens bypart, because for some fruit and veg, It also accelerates the ripening. So like melons and stuff. Um, you know, especially the cantaloupes that we tend to get in the United States that are as solid as a boulder. They'll soften up. They'll get a lot more aromatic. they'll get fruitier, which, you know, is a nice outcome too. Well, the, an interesting flip side to that is the, the mango people tell me that, so all mangoes that get imported into the U.S.

[38:56] or, or shipped across state lines, for that matter, have to go through a, a hot water cycle to kill any fruit fly larva that are present. Uh, and I don't remember what the exact uh, temperature. I imagine that's going to be a really hot dip, something, you know, 72 Celsius. Yeah, there's, there's a couple different procedures. I just don't remember what they are, but they say it stops any further climacteric ripening. Uh, yeah, I mean, this is one of these things where the thermal shocking of the fruits that enhanced ripening and prevented, uh, uh, sort of decay. Those are really low temperatures. Most of the temperatures were well below 50 degrees Celsius. You know, the USDA, if they're basically saying, hey, we don't want fruit by love run. I don't think they're putting too much nuance into like, hey, let's not damage the flavor of this mango too much why we deal with these fruit flies. I think they're going to be like, put that shit in some boiling water before you ship it anywhere, be damned if the mango tastes like shit. Right. I don't know. It's weird That's why, like, if you want like a good mango, you have to go down to in the US, you have to go down to Florida and get it. Oh, what? at the, at the ranch. Yeah, at the Fairchild. Right. Or at like Robert is here, which is like there. I think those guys are allowed to sell untreated mangoes, um, because it's not crossing state lines, you know, well, or at least as far as they know, you know what I mean? Like, but, you know, I don't know, like, what kind of like crazy fruit flies are going to come live in New York? I guess that's not, who knows? I could get some crazy fruit fly. I hate Did I tell you about my idea, Chris? Like, you know how, like, when the, you know how when the Department of Health comes to, like, bar a restaurant, and if you use speed

[40:36] pores, or even if you don't, if they're not that smart, they take flashlights and flash them into the bottom of your bottles to make sure that you don't have fruit flies in your liquor bottles, right?

[40:43] You seen this. So I want to actually get a droophilia culture going and fill a bottle with fruit flies and do a fruit fly infusion where the fruit flies have been raised on food grade food.

[40:56] It's all food grade, like everything is like closed and there's serve shots of like fruit fly liqueur and see whether or not I get a point for each fruit fly in that

[41:05] bottle. That's like, you know, 8000000 points against the restaurant. I was going to say this this totally sounds like a road to success. Yeah, right? I'd be like, uh, sir or Madam, uh, I put the fruit flies in there on purpose, you know, try to count

[41:23] them if you can. Like what's the maximum number of points anyone's ever received? This would be like far in excess of that. Like, literally, like, I could have maybe 10 to the 5th points on my, uh, on my health inspection, which would be amazing, right?

[41:39] But the only way you would is if you keep them what? Food grade? Everything food grade? Like, in other words, like, I would have to, like, the argument would be, like, these were raised in, like, you know,

[41:48] a completely closed culture environment on, like, you know, sugar water from the domino sugar corporation inside of an NSF certified holding tank. Like, it's like, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. know what I mean? And it's like, I think it's like, a way to demonstrate that you'd have to take a big, like, quart container and just chug the whole thing of fruit flies. Well, I would get horribly drunk, Peter. That's like a lot of liquor. I would shake a cocktail with it and drink it. You know what I mean? But like, or maybe do a shot, you know, fruit fly shot. Do you think they have a flavor? I'm sure they do I don't think crickets have much of a flavor. I mean, ants taste like things. Ants taste like things, but

[42:27] ants ants have lots of chemical defense mechanisms too. Yeah, they're venom. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. So anyway, anyone out there wants to try it. Let me know what happens when the health inspector shows up. By the way, before I do the next question, I know we're going to run out of time, but Nastasia Lopez did not realize that Star Wars characters are racist.

[42:47] I knew the one. Which one? Which one? The one you were imitating, Peter. Oh, yeah. You didn't do Char Jar, did you? No, no, Jar Jar is the worst. No, I was talking about the wingman. No, no, the co-pilot for Landown Taurisian. Oh, now I can picture him. does he talk? Like, oh, dude, we know, Lilia. Like, something like that. I don't know what I don't know. I couldn't really... Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, Lando was also the victim of stereotyping. Well, yes, I mean, what I mean? Because, like, you wish they had chosen a white guy to run Cloud City? What wrong with you? No, because like there's like 2 black guys in all of Star Wars, episodes four,

[43:24] five, and six, right? Basically. I mean, Darth Vader, you know, I mean, obviously, inside. Accounting James Earl Jones? Lando. Yeah. And then and Lando. And, I mean, Lando backstabs Hans, right?

[43:37] Well, he was forced to. Don't you remember? Like, that was not the deal. I've altered the deal. Pray, I don't alter any further, which is what I say to Dax and Booker constantly. I've altered the deal. I say that all the time to them. No, he redeems himself in Return of the Jedi, but in Empire Strikes Back, I think everybody comes out from that

[43:56] thinking Lando's kind of kind of lame. Yeah, right? Anyway. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, it's well known. Star Wars has a lot of racist stereotypes right? It is only is a bunch of characters with where they have veiled their racist stereotypes by making them into aliens.

[44:14] Like, that's all they've done. is they've taken, they choose X, Y, or Z stereotype and just turned it into an alien, so it's cool. Wookie is being the exception that we're just talking about. Well, I don't know. I can't unwookie my brain. Like, everyone loves Chewbacca so much that I can't... Dave, go on YouTube and look look for the Wookie Christmas special. I've seen it You've seen it. several times. Okay, all right. Amazingly bad Amazingly bad. Who are they? No, it's just like a wookie family celebrating Christmas and there's nothing wookie about them except that they just are

[44:44] wearing... widely known as being the worst thing that was ever put on television. The Star Wars Christmas special, widely known. All right, back to cooking. Back to cooking. Ron writes in about curing temperature. I'm in the process of converting a one chamber, Arctic air refrigerator into a curing chamber. I was asking questions in a charcuterie forum online, and one of the pros bought up the fact that he keeps his temperature in

[45:04] the mid 30s. He says that while the meat takes longer to mature on the order of 2 to 3 times longer, the final product has a superior taste. This goes against the conventional wisdom of keeping the tents in the 50s. He has a small following that backs his claims, and I strongly lean towards his method, since then I can occasionally use the chamber as a regular refrigeration unit when my regular fridge is full.

[45:24] I wanted to get your thoughts on this, love the show, Ron. Uh, and uh, PS. I was listening when you were asking for things, people want to know how to cook low temp. I know a lot of people who are really intimidated when pan searing duck breasts. Maybe you can come up with a way to guarantee a crispy, rendered skin with meat, medium rare throughout using low temperature. I'll hit the duck breast first. I always do a 57. I do a 50 45 minute 57 C on a duck breast, and then for crisping you can use Chris's technique of buying a dog brush. You still believe in the dog brush, Chris? I do, but I was going to say the super, the super hack for, for doing duck breast at home. Take them out, take them out, you know, fresh. Put them on something that's going to keep the skin really flat in the freezer and freeze them for about 30 to 45 minutes, which is

[46:10] going to freeze the fat, freeze the skin. It's not going to freeze the meat all the way through, not unless you have a blast freezer. Take them out while they're frozen and just start searing them, skin side down, you know, weighting them down from frozen. The fat's gonna thaw really quickly, start rendering out. The meat's gonna thaw a lot more slowly, and that's gonna keep the meat from getting overcooked. Then bag them up, cook them sous vide, and then refresh the crust with a really quick, like a 32nd

[46:36] sear and a wicked hot cast iron pan on the pickup. And that makes the best duck breast I know how to make. All right, there you go. Now, back to his other question about, um, the refrigerator. Look, a lot of people I know try to push all their temperatures lower. Uh, and so they push like their fermentation temperature lower on sausage and they push their curing temperature. And I think you can taste the difference with hams, like one. I think one of the main differences between the flavor of an American country ham and, like, you know, an Italian, you know, classic, you know,

[47:11] prosciutto deparma style flavor is the temperature at which the curing chamber is held, and it radically shifts to kind of reactions and the flavor you get. So I don't think I think it's a mistake to say that one is superior to the other. I would say that it is different, and that things are obviously going to, the rates of reactions will accelerate at higher temperatures. Do you have any thoughts on this, Chris? You ever done experiments? Actually, so I'm extrapolating a little bit from fermentation. So from dough fermentation I looked at, but being that it's, you know, yeast are a big part of the creation of

[47:45] flavors and they're creating some of the flavorful acids that contribute and also preserve. I do know that if you shift the temperatures down to low refrigerator like temperatures. The yeast ship their metabolism. And instead of producing as much lactic acid, they start producing probionic acid and other

[48:04] acids that have a very, very different taste. And so high temperature, uh, higher, you know, room temperature bread ferments, but I would also imagine warmer

[48:13] temperature, um, meat ferments. The yeasts involved are going to produce different acids, and you're absolutely going to get different flavor. I completely agree that one isn't superior. It's what style do you prefer? But I think the major reason that you get a difference is the yeast involved in the fermentation process start producing different kinds of acids, depending on what temperature those yeast are at. Right. And I'll also say that, that, uh, I see your, your,

[48:39] your aging, your aging and curing temperature is different from in a sausage. It's different from your initial kind of fermentation temperature, but, you know, I know a lot of people who, um, you know, like typical like fermentation temperature is high, like above body temperature for a lot of these things

[48:54] for, for a lot of American style sausages. But I knew a guy who used to do his stuff at a much lower temperature because he was looking to get a very minimal

[49:02] pH drop. Uh, and so he was always trying to ride the safety line on uh, on, you know, salt and pH levels. And that's his style, but I will say that if you were attempting to do a high pH sausage, that's when you need to start worrying, you know, relatively high.

[49:18] That's when you need to start worrying that you're going to have problems. That's when you need to start like checking yourself. Measuring stuff. Yeah. You know, if you if you do like a typical, like, high temperature, like, US style fermentation, you're

[49:32] getting, people, you should still measure it, but you can taste if that sucker's acidic enough. You know what I mean? Because they're quite acid. Uh, I'm not a huge fan. Are you guys, I don't know if much you guys think about it, but I'm not a huge fan of like super pH acidic sausages because I think a texture really suffers. It gets kind of dry and crumbly, you know what I mean? Anyway. All right, so what do we got here? We got time for more stuff. I'll take him in order then. All right, AK wrote in about mocktails. I want to say I read your book, Liquid Intelligence from cover to cover. I'm sorry that you had to go through that torment there, AK. I loved it. I got the book as well as my 1st set of cocktail tools, a little over a year ago, and went into education mode. Probably within the last half year. I started dabbling, sticking mainly to working with the classics. Um, I've even been making my own ice, you know, like big, you know, clear ice. Question. Do you have any advice on mocktails? I have a few friends who are more on the lightweight one drink wonder side, but still want to partake in the social aspect of drinking, particularly when seeing me mix up different

[50:32] things. I would imagine that mocktails are not as simple as similar recipes just take out the

[50:37] booze, you're correct. And then trying to replace it with juice or water, would throw off the sugar slash acidity ratios. Are there any liquids, slashes ingredients that you've used and it provided good substitutes, or does it require totally different calculation slash analysis? Um, I don't make it up to NYC as like, but I like to stop by your place in person. Well, we don't have one right now, but hopefully soon. Hopefully by, like, you know, July, August, I'll have another place open again. Uh, you know, I'll announce when I can announce. But so, um, I don't know, Chris, whether you've ever done mocktail experiments, but the trick is, is that most cocktails are lower bricks than their

[51:11] non-alcoholic, uh, counterparts. And if you want someone to feel like they are drinking an adult drink without alcohol, the 2 important things, 3

[51:22] in, like in this order, I would match the sugar level of a drink and then I would balance the viscosity. Remember, alcohol as a higher viscosity. Alcohol water mixtures have a higher viscosity, lower surface tension, but higher viscosity than water mixtures alone. And so you need something that's going to add viscosity and

[51:42] mouth feel that isn't sugar because you don't want it as sweet as, let's say, a soda.

[51:46] So a soda is going to be roughly 10%. Have you tried glycerin, Dave? I was going to say that I use it all the time. So, like, when I'm doing low alcohol cocktails, like a Marro-based carbonated cocktails, I hit it with glycerin. Like, as it's just a matter, of course. And so, I mean, I think that's the that's the 1st thing. lower the sugar, add glycerin. And the 2nd thing I would, instead of using straight sugar, I'd use a little bit of a sugar alcohol that has a little bit of a

[52:11] cooling aspect to it. Not too much. Can you get a good deal of cooling without overdoing it on those things, Chris? I've never done a lot of experiments with it, but that's the last thing I try to replicate is a little bit of that cooling aspect that you get. Well, so the thing with cooling for most things like xylotol, the cooling effect only works if they're still in crystalline form because it's actually melting the crystal takes heat, not heat comes from your

[52:34] mouth and so it lowers the temperature of your mouth. So if you dissolve it into a syrup, you don't get the cooling effect. Most sugars, I know, not without like menthol or something. I don't want menthol. I can imagine like a, if you did like, I can't believe I'm going to say this, but if you did like a sugared rim, you could use like a fine ground

[52:50] xylitol for that and it's not going to taste minty. taste a little cool. And don't overdo it on the xylotol or they definitely won't be cool on the outflow when they're in the bathroom.

[53:00] You know what I mean? You want to go mellow with the xylotol. So, like, they made xylotol gummy bears for a long time. And then they stopped because people would not just eat like a normal amount of gummy

[53:11] bears that would feed bag, like the thing of gummy bears. And then, uh, and then they had, uh, yeah, exit strategy problems with the gummy bears on the way out. Yeah, I saw the Amazon reviews, but it's like, what do you think is going to happen if you eat £5 of gummy bears in a city. You deserved it. Yeah. This is the same problem with Alestra with the wow. You know what I mean? It's like, uh, you know, um, and the fact that you have to hydrogenate it or it just runs out on its own. It's like a marathon runner on its own there. But, uh, yeah, I mean, the issue is, you, you, you do one thing for someone and then they think it's a license to just go completely bananas. You know what I mean? And that's not, that's not what it's for because I, you know, I consume reasonable amounts of these alternative sugars

[53:54] and, uh, and without problems. Reasonable amounts. You know what I mean? Um, anyways. Um, so, yeah, but I don't really like menthol in my uh, in my cocktails, do you, Chris? I don't like I don't like a menthol mocktail. I don't like menthol in just about anything. You do or don't? No, I don't. I'm not a I am not a fan of menthol and it's maybe just from years of abuse with like toothpaste and chewing gums, but I think menthol is essentially a terrible flavor. Do you remember like 8 years ago or 10 years ago when everybody was buying menthol crystals and putting them on every damn thing? No, I think I might have lived out of the country when that happened

[54:32] mercifully. Yeah, there's just like, it was like, like, it was a pastry chef thing mostly, but it was like just like, it was

[54:38] a menthol, Christy, because they look cool. You know what I mean? Was this Johnny? Was this Johnny Z or someone? He might have, but like a bunch of people. I'm not going to call anybody out. But like, a bunch of people were like, it's like, it was like, you know, 1st it was Tonka

[54:53] beans, and then we're like, no, you really shouldn't use the Tonka beans. And then it was like, okay, menthol crystals. And we're like, yeah, but they taste real bad. You know what I mean? It's like that's the... I mean, I like eating a menthol crystal every once in a while just to remind myself of, you know what I mean? But, you know, I don't know. not a big fan. All right. So, Chris, anything, uh, anything you want on the exit to talk about, uh, Jewel? Uh, no, come, uh, come to chef steps. Come for jewel. Just come for our content. We always love people who are passionate about cooking. We love having more voices in our community. So thanks for having me on and we'll see you soon, Dave. Nice. And so, uh, and go on to uh, MoFad.org. I hate org. I hate org as a thing.org. just dotorg. Hate it, mofad.org. Go to mofad.org. And go for the gala, thanks to Peter for coming. And by the way, I'll say, Chris, while you're still on. We had an update recently to our spins all crew. Um, got some more prototypes in. And so that's moving forward nicely. I'm probably gonna go to China and get the final, final approval on the stuff in April. So if you have any spins all related questions, you can send those on in, but those of you that were backers, got an update and we're moving along nicely. Uh, thanks, Nick, for coming on. And, uh, we'll, um, next week I'm in Edinburgh at Tales of the Cocktail, Edinburgh on Tuesday.

[56:15] So I, uh, and I know what? I don't like calling in. Stasi and I decided that when you call in. But you had dinner with Dave. You can get a cell phone number. Yeah, Nastasia has, yes, that's well, Nastasia, well known for this. But anyway, so I might see you in 2 weeks on cooking issues.